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Herb
April 18th, 2011, 06:59 PM
I'm interested in hearing from people that did it for the 1st time in their life as a Masters swimmer. Who is the oldest out there to accomplish this feat?

I'm 42 and went for a best of 101.xx for the 2nd season in a row. I think I am going to do it, maybe next year. But I know I am not getting younger.:frustrated:

pmccoy
April 18th, 2011, 07:25 PM
I swam 58.40 at age 40 in my first meet since I was 13. I'm pretty sure I didn't break 1:00 as and age grouper... I was very slow back then. Right now, I'm shooting for breaking 2:00 in the 200. I swam 2:11 back in February... maybe next year.

poolraat
April 18th, 2011, 07:36 PM
I started swimming in 2000, at age 48, and though I knew how to swim (kind of) had never swam competitively before. In 2005, at age 53, I went 59.23. I haven't broken 1:00 since though I've been close several times (1:00.04 in Atlanta last year).

cheakamus
April 18th, 2011, 08:40 PM
I started swimming in 2008, aged 58, and at my first meet ever, in 2009, I went 1:08.xx in the hundred. The following year I went 1:10.xx, and this year I went 1:09.xx. Like you guys, I'd love to do a 100 in under a minute before I finally hang up my goggles. I know I've got a ways to go. The good news is that for someone who started so late, I'm still getting faster, whereas most of my comrades who grew up swimming age group and/or college can only decline.:D

pmccoy
April 18th, 2011, 09:31 PM
Related question I've been curious about... has anyone that didn't swim competitively in high school or college ever swam a top ten USMS time?

jaadams1
April 18th, 2011, 11:02 PM
Related question I've been curious about... has anyone that didn't swim competitively in high school or college ever swam a top ten USMS time?

I know of at least two people in my workout group that do it regularly...one reason is that they are in the 75-79 group, and swim the more difficult "no one wants to swim" events. Neither of them swam when they were in H.S. or college. One was in the Navy, but didn't "swim".

couldbebetterfly
April 18th, 2011, 11:08 PM
Related question I've been curious about... has anyone that didn't swim competitively in high school or college ever swam a top ten USMS time?

I got a couple of UK top 10s in 2002/2003 having swum (hopefully that is the right choice of swim/swam/swum) competitively as a kid at a much, much lower level than the US high schools (think summer rec standard, all volunteer coaching etc, but year-round at 2-3 sessions per week). I did no swimming in college or for a few years after - this was 1992-1999.

I think I got 200 fly LC and SC, 800 LC free and maybe 400 LC free (Unfortunately the ASA/Britishswimming web records are either non-existent or un-searchable). So not the most popular events - also there were precious few LC Masters meets, so if you could actually swim in one, you were in for a shot at a top 10.

I never swam those events as a kid at all, never swam LC until I was a master - the longest event we used to swim was the 200 free and that was only once a year.

My PR for the 100 SCM free stands at 1.09.xx done when I was 17 or 18 to give you an idea of how good/bad I was. I'm now at 1.04 SCY and would love to break that 1.00 barrier. However currently I'm concentrating on my 200 fly again, to see if I can get a USMS top 10 :D

That was a long answer to a short question:blah:

knelson
April 18th, 2011, 11:37 PM
Charlotte Davis has 101 USMS Top Ten times and 11 world records and she never swam in high school. She quit competitive swimming at age 13 to compete in synchro. PNA's Wet Set newsletter just did a story about her last month: http://www.swimpna.org/pdf/newsletter/2011/2011_03_Wet.pdf

Of the people who have posted in this thread I've seen both poolraat and cheakamus swim in person. Both these guy have nice, efficient strokes and when they're in the water they "look like swimmers." I think that's the key. Unless you've got good technique you aren't going to swim fast.

want2beafish
April 19th, 2011, 07:49 AM
I broke 1:00 at SCY Nats last May with a 59.93. I wore a B70 rubber suit because I figured this was my one shot to do that (and to break 20:00 in the 1650, which I did with a 19:52). I was 44 at the time. I may never do that again, as I believe my time was suit-aided. And that's OK.


Related question I've been curious about... has anyone that didn't swim competitively in high school or college ever swam a top ten USMS time?

I never swam competitively as a kid and have a couple of SCM top 10 times. Came pretty close in LCM, but am still a ways away in SCY. My first masters meet was when I was 41. I've been recreationally swimming all my life, but learned flip turns and butterfly as an adult. It's tough to break into competitive swimming as an adult, but not impossible. I do believe you are always playing catch-up, though.

swimshark
April 19th, 2011, 07:49 AM
Congrats to those who have "broken through". My fastest as an age grouper was 1:03.7 at age 17. This past weekend I did a 1:01.61. I'm inching up on the below 1:00 mark :)

Adrian Lee
April 19th, 2011, 08:07 AM
Hi, i'm 37 and finally went under a 1 min at my first ever swim meet a month ago - 57.56. At practice my fastest was 1:01.5, which was off the wall. It had been my goal for the past 1.5 - 2 years to go below 1 min.

aztimm
April 19th, 2011, 08:19 AM
I had been swimming with masters groups since 1998, with no prior swimming experience...no kids groups, no high school, no college. To this date, my best 100 SCY free is 1:00.33 at a meet, 1:02 in practice.

pmccoy
April 19th, 2011, 08:57 AM
I know of at least two people in my workout group that do it regularly...one reason is that they are in the 75-79 group, and swim the more difficult "no one wants to swim" events.
That's my backup plan... Top ten by attrition.

Charlotte Davis has 101 USMS Top Ten times and 11 world records and she never swam in high school.Great story! If only I'd gone into synchronized swiming.

pmccoy
April 19th, 2011, 09:17 AM
It's tough to break into competitive swimming as an adult, but not impossible. I do believe you are always playing catch-up, though.I definitely feel like I'm always trying to catch up. Swimming with ex High School and College swimmers can be frustrating. They make it look very easy. I try to be patient though. I've made vast improvements over the last 2 years and figure it will take another 2-3 years before I make a run at any top ten times.

Speedo
April 19th, 2011, 09:37 AM
I'm 40, and swam through college (small D1). On a similar note, I'm 0.2 away from my big barrier in the 50 free. I realize that I probably need to hit this goal in the next few years if I'm going to do it.

IMO, what you could have going for you (I don't know your background) is if you did NOT swim in HS or college. Meaning, you haven't tried it all; used the entire spectrum of training methods, or stagnated after millions of repetitive armstrokes. In other words, you have more room for improvement than someone who has swum competetively for over 20 years. You are malleable. Again, I don't know your background, but if this is the case it is a positive one I think.

This is a good thing for you and your goal. I, on the other hand, am running out of options and will struggle for 0.2.

Good luck!

Chicken of the Sea
April 19th, 2011, 09:56 AM
1:10 is the new 1:00

hnatkin
April 19th, 2011, 10:08 AM
I swam 58.40 at age 40 in my first meet since I was 13. I'm pretty sure I didn't break 1:00 as and age grouper... I was very slow back then. Right now, I'm shooting for breaking 2:00 in the 200. I swam 2:11 back in February... maybe next year.

I don't know about 2:00 but you should definitely be able to go faster than 2:11 as I went 2:12 in March and you were kicking my butt last week!

Karl_S
April 19th, 2011, 10:08 AM
I had been swimming with masters groups since 1998, with no prior swimming experience...no kids groups, no high school, no college. To this date, my best 100 SCY free is 1:00.33 at a meet, 1:02 in practice.
If you can do 1:02 in practice, I expect that with rest and a little luck, you will positively destroy the 1:00 barrier in a meet.

pmccoy
April 19th, 2011, 10:54 AM
I don't know about 2:00 but you should definitely be able to go faster than 2:11 as I went 2:12 in March and you were kicking my butt last week!I don't know about kicking anyone's butt. Seems I was usually behind the swimmer next to me. And she had a bum shoulder. Looking back at my notes, I did have a bad 200. I botched two or three turns and it cost me. Might have been a 2:08 had I made cleaner turns. I think 2:00 is definitely possible but I'm going to have to have a good race and continue to improve over the next couple years.

quicksilver
April 19th, 2011, 11:17 AM
I have a friend on the forum who began swimming in his early 40's. (rtodd). He was a former runner.

The 100 free time gradually came down to the minute range. And it invariably became the mystical barrier to break. Kind of like the 4 minute mile.

At a meet a couple of years ago he smashed it with a :57. Very exciting for both him and everyone else cheering him on!

ande
April 19th, 2011, 11:19 AM
I was 15 when I went under 1:00 in the 100 yard freestyle for the first time which is fairly late for age group swimmers. Some 9 & 10 year olds, many 11 & 12 year olds and most 13 & 14 year olds can do it.


If you REALLY want to accomplish going under 1:00 in the 100 yard freestyle for the first time, in addition to hearing from people who did it as Masters, I suggest you examine, how you:
1) have trained in the past few years & recently, vs
2) need to train to accomplish your goal.
Look for low hanging fruit and pick it.

you've told us you:
1) are 42
2) went 1:01.xx for the 2nd season in a row.
3) think you're going to do it, maybe next year &
4) aren't getting any younger

BUT if you really want to DO IT and
if you're asking us for help,
we need more information about you, like:

Tell us about how you've been training recently
+ times per week,
+ with a team or by yourself,
+ with coach or without,
+ with training partners or without
+ how far you swim per practice,
+ the type of sets you do at practice,
+ your times in the 50 & 200 free
+ whether you're lifting weights or exercising or not?

Your height?

your weight?

Any injuries?

what suit wore in your meet?

did you shave?

did you taper?

Have you ever seen yourself swim?
Do you have any videos of you swimming or racing?
(put them on youtube)

What sort of mental steps & training you've done?
What are your swimming goals?
What are your plans to reach your goals?

How bad do you want to go under 1:00?

Tell us about your work or life,
what times you can budget to train

please provide any other details about you that
you think we should know in order to help you.

There's long list of ways you can swim faster and there's a short list of the few that will give you the greatest results in the least amount of time. Figure it out and do it.

Have you read Swim Faster Faster?

Wish you the best, hope you accomplish your swimming goal.
Please give us more info about you and we should be able to give you better suggestions on how to swim a 100 yard free under 1:00.

orca1946
April 19th, 2011, 11:38 AM
Sorry - not me. At 65 my 5 fast twitch fibers are not working like they used to !

aztimm
April 19th, 2011, 11:58 AM
If you can do 1:02 in practice, I expect that with rest and a little luck, you will positively destroy the 1:00 barrier in a meet.

The 1:02 workout time was 2-1/2 years ago, at one of the best pools I have access to, ASU's Mona Plummer.
My 1:00.33 meet time is from 2-1/2 weeks ago, a meet at the Mesa Kino pool.

I'm not too hopeful of getting below 1:00, the clock is ticking. I probably won't be doing another SCY meet until next year at the earliest.

aquageek
April 19th, 2011, 12:15 PM
I'm not too hopeful of getting below 1:00, the clock is ticking. I probably won't be doing another SCY meet until next year at the earliest.

Are you not doing nationals in your home town? If not, lame, double lame.

swimmerb212
April 19th, 2011, 12:25 PM
1:10 is the new 1:00

I completely agree! I reached that milestone with a 1:08.99 in March.

As a non high school / non college / completely inactive couch potato until age 30 swimmer, I would love to break the 1:00 mark or do something top-10ish before age catches up, but I'll also be happy to just keep swimming until my 70's. Although it will be 2050 by then and maybe 70-year-old women will be breaking 1:00 on a regular basis.

Chicken of the Sea
April 19th, 2011, 12:41 PM
I completely agree! I reached that milestone with a 1:08.99 in March.

As a non high school / non college / completely inactive couch potato until age 30 swimmer, I would love to break the 1:00 mark or do something top-10ish before age catches up, but I'll also be happy to just keep swimming until my 70's. Although it will be 2050 by then and maybe 70-year-old women will be breaking 1:00 on a regular basis.

haha well done! yeah I took up swimming 8 years ago at 33, not knowing that swim workouts even existed (but was taught to swim as a baby). Got a 1.07 last year wearing the $20 Finis almost outlawed "tech" suit. There's no way that'll every happen again :)))

Herb
April 19th, 2011, 09:13 PM
I'm 40, and swam through college (small D1). On a similar note, I'm 0.2 away from my big barrier in the 50 free. I realize that I probably need to hit this goal in the next few years if I'm going to do it.

IMO, what you could have going for you (I don't know your background) is if you did NOT swim in HS or college. Meaning, you haven't tried it all; used the entire spectrum of training methods, or stagnated after millions of repetitive armstrokes. In other words, you have more room for improvement than someone who has swum competetively for over 20 years. You are malleable. Again, I don't know your background, but if this is the case it is a positive one I think.

This is a good thing for you and your goal. I, on the other hand, am running out of options and will struggle for 0.2.

Good luck!

I've got that going for me, which is nice. I swam age group from age 7-12 and was pretty good I think for a kid. I can't remember my times but it wasn't under 1:00, maybe 1:03ish. Although sprint freestyle was never my thing, fly and distancewas.
I think I have a full second or more to gain from the start alone. I just haven't been able to figure it out and I have no place to practice it besides meet warm-ups. My legs are weak and I get no push from the blocks. Further I must get a poor angle because I am just stuck under water in a dead spot and usually come up at the feet of others in the heat. I think I want to go back to my age group flat dive in 3 feet water depth but I haven't figured that out either.
I can also lose another 20 pounds and continue to improve my technique and the workout variation too.

Herb
April 19th, 2011, 09:17 PM
If you can do 1:02 in practice, I expect that with rest and a little luck, you will positively destroy the 1:00 barrier in a meet.

I can never come close to race times in practice. I think my best time in practice is about 1:07 from a push, but that's just me alone and I can't harness the extra adrenalin. I always thought if I went under 1:05 or could do 50s under 30 I would be there.

couldbebetterfly
April 19th, 2011, 09:52 PM
I can never come close to race times in practice. I think my best time in practice is about 1:07 from a push, but that's just me alone and I can't harness the extra adrenalin. I always thought if I went under 1:05 or could do 50s under 30 I would be there.

Try it with fins. I am becoming a fins convert...do some hard kick sets to get those legs strengthened and try a 100 for time with fins. It hurts the legs, but its fun and fast - see if you can beat that 1.05 - I bet you could!

Karl_S
April 19th, 2011, 11:02 PM
I can never come close to race times in practice. I think my best time in practice is about 1:07 from a push, but that's just me alone and I can't harness the extra adrenalin. I always thought if I went under 1:05 or could do 50s under 30 I would be there.
That's consistent with my experience. In the last year, my best 100 SCY free from a push in practice was 1:03. My best 50 free from a push in practice was :30. (Until I started messing with my stroke about 2 months ago I could go 1:05 from a push in practice pretty reliably when I set out to do a 100 free AFAP. Now the best I can do is about 1:08 - but in principle when I get this new stroke mastered I will be way faster - at least that is the plan.) In any case, over this same past year period, I hit :58-low in meets several times and :57-high once, (twice if you count converted SCM). So in summary, yes, if you can go :30 and 1:04 from a push in practice I would expect you to go well under 1:00 in a 100 in a meet.

Keep training hard!

Herb
April 19th, 2011, 11:20 PM
Ande, I don't think I was asking for help but I'm always up for getting free tips. That's a lot of questions but I will try to answer most of them.

I generally swim 3-4 times a week. I go up to 4-5 for a couple of months to end the spring season. This was my 3rd season of Masters after a 27 year lay-off. I started at a 1:08 and have slowly inched down at a decreasing rate.
I mostly swim alone. I have access to a coached workout but don't usually make it because of schedule. It's just a handful of fitness/tri swimmers but the coach was real helpful and I was able to get some advice and work on it on my own.
I do 2000-3000 SCM a workout. A week would consist of something like this:
Day 1 (aerobic)
150 Warm-up
2500M ladder on 1:50 interval (avg 1:35-1:40 pace)
200 cool down
Day 2(aerobic/anaerobic mix)
150 warm-up
18x100 in descending sets of 3 on 1:55,1:50, 1:40 (avg. 1:40, 1:35, 1:30)
200 cool down
Day 3 (sprints)
150 warm-up
10x100 hypoxic (which for me is breathing every 3 strokes)
10x25 free all-out on 1:00 (or 5 50s or 2 75s)
cool down
A 4th day might be a different variation of above or a butterfly version of the sprint workout.
This gives me enough variety but I don't do all these mixed up workouts that I read about. I might add a couple hundred yards of kicking earlier in the season but end up abandoning it because it hurts so much I start to feel the returns are eventually negative. I need to strengthen my legs but that is the reality. kicking a 50 in a minute is my best and then I am sore.
Now that SCY is over I switch to distance and try to do a 5k later in the summer so plan on doing very little sprinting. I will get my yardage up to 4000 for a month or two. Probably 4 times a week or 3 and a day of biking. Then get back towards sprinting in the winter.
I just did a best 27.7 (my best by almost a second with a crap start) in the 50 after a constant 28.5-29.5 for two years. My best 200 time is 2:21 but that was a while ago and I think I could do a little better. I just did a 13:50 in the 1000 (1st time) which I was very happy with. (I did a 26:00 in the 1500M a year ago which I think I would now smash). My pace in distance and in practice sets have improved substantially in the last few months, but it didn't translate into the dramatic improvement in the 100 I was looking for. My technique I think has also improved recently away from swinging arms and thumb entry to high elbows along with improved breathing. It feels so much better but maybe I revert to old habits when sprinting or else my form isn't as important when sprinting.
Weight lifting, like kicking, has been an on-off relationship for the last couple of years. As I get further into the season I feel my limited time is better spent in the pool and it makes me sore. I just started lifting again today after a couple months off as I start a new cycle of conditioning.
I'm 6'1, 220 lbs. Just lost 10 pounds and want to get towards 200. I've been a heavy drinker and food binger for decades and trying to turn my life around.
My wife and I both work and have two small children. Juggling schedules to get to the pool is rough. My job is on the fritz so I might end up with more time soon but might then have to cut my membership.
My knee was blown out and I have poor circulation in my legs and they are just overall weak.
I wear a $30 jammer and don't shave but don't have much body hair. I suppose I should wear a cap but I have never liked them at all.

I'm trying as we speak to figure out the technology to get a video on youtube. It was taken on a camera in a hotel pool so won't be very good.

How's that?

knelson
April 19th, 2011, 11:43 PM
I might add a couple hundred yards of kicking earlier in the season but end up abandoning it because it hurts so much I start to feel the returns are eventually negative. I need to strengthen my legs but that is the reality. kicking a 50 in a minute is my best and then I am sore.

This is a big red flag to me. If you can improve your kicking you will get under a minute for a 100 free. 1:00 for a 50 kick is not good. Lots of people who are poor kickers end up giving up on it, but if you want to sprint you have to have a good kick, IMO. My advice is to really work on your legs. This will have the added benefit of helping your start (where you feel you go too deep and end up "dead in the water").

Use fins sometimes if you want, but don't start using them as a crutch. All that will happen then is you'll take them off and be a bad kicker again.

Herb
April 19th, 2011, 11:54 PM
This is a big red flag to me. If you can improve your kicking you will get under a minute for a 100 free. 1:00 for a 50 kick is not good. Lots of people who are poor kickers end up giving up on it, but if you want to sprint you have to have a good kick, IMO. My advice is to really work on your legs. This will have the added benefit of helping your start (where you feel you go too deep and end up "dead in the water").

Use fins sometimes if you want, but don't start using them as a crutch. All that will happen then is you'll take them off and be a bad kicker again.

It's frustrating. Women that don't want to get their hair wet fly past me on a kickboard. Part of it is that my legs are so weak I give up. But at the same time it is like running when I did triathlons. It was always my weak link but if I ran too much I would get to the point where I was so sore that I couldn't run any more. Same thing.
I know Ande will tell me to read his kick faster stuff. It doesn't work for me. A couple of all out 50s and I would be done for a week.

knelson
April 20th, 2011, 12:10 AM
I know Ande will tell me to read his kick faster stuff. It doesn't work for me. A couple of all out 50s and I would be done for a week.

You're right. He will. ;) You've got to start somewhere. Maybe the best place to start is by doing easy kicking and don't even worry about how fast you're going. Then you can gradually add in some fast kicking and start timing yourself periodically. Kicking is hard. I get destroyed in kick sets by people who I can beat easily while swimming, but I know it's important so I do it.

Rykno
April 20th, 2011, 05:14 AM
Are you not doing nationals in your home town? If not, lame, double lame.

I second that! Would that be Lame^3 or Lame^4 :banana:

or are you volunteering during the meet hence not swimming...

rtodd
April 20th, 2011, 07:37 AM
Kicking is definately important, but refining technique should also help you get under a minute. Establishing a good body line and a good catch with high elbow and fingers down should also help. I've seen distance swimmers who hold a minute pace using great body position and distance per stroke.

I'm not a great kicker and I eventually got under a minute. Below are my 50's and 100's since I started swimming. I'm 46 now, started swimming at 40.

4/2/2006 30.28 1:10.24
4/30/2006 28.70 1:08.76
1/21/2007 26.86 1:04.00
3/11/2007 26.83 1:03.22
4/28/2007 26.85 1:01.75
11/4/2007 27.16 1:03.98
2/9/2008 1:02.52
4/5/2008 26.60 1:01.04
10/26/2008 59.31
1/25/2009 26.21 58.01
3/15/2009 30.38 1:00.27
2/7/2010 29.57 1:00.68
3/7/2010 26.52 57.92
3/27/2011 26.09

thewookiee
April 20th, 2011, 08:16 AM
Are you not doing nationals in your home town? If not, lame, double lame.

Alright my friend, I have call ya on this one. If he doesn't want to do nationals, then he doesn't have too, even in his own town. Maybe he has prior plans for family or business. Maybe, he just doesn't want too. Either way, it's not lame if he doesn't feel like swimming in the meet.

aquageek
April 20th, 2011, 09:02 AM
Alright my friend, I have call ya on this one. If he doesn't want to do nationals, then he doesn't have too, even in his own town. Maybe he has prior plans for family or business. Maybe, he just doesn't want too. Either way, it's not lame if he doesn't feel like swimming in the meet.

Boo boo. If you have a national competition in your home town or even close by you have an obligation to attend and support the cause. It's part of your membership agreement, I looked it up.

thewookiee
April 20th, 2011, 09:12 AM
Boo boo. If you have a national competition in your home town or even close by you have an obligation to attend and support the cause. It's part of your membership agreement, I looked it up.

Where is it citied in the agreement? Auburn is 4 hours from here. I don't plan to attend. Will this revoke my usms membership?

If he doesn't want to go, what's the big deal?

aquageek
April 20th, 2011, 10:11 AM
Where is it citied in the agreement? Auburn is 4 hours from here. I don't plan to attend. Will this revoke my usms membership?

If he doesn't want to go, what's the big deal?

Your membership is revoked for other reasons. I filed a petition with the home office board of directors and the review is pending.

I just can't imagine having the best meet of the year in your home town at your home pool and skipping it. But, to each his own.

I'm not going to Auburn, or Aubrun as they say there, either.

thewookiee
April 20th, 2011, 10:19 AM
I'm not going to Auburn, or Aubrun as they say there, either.


It's in your neck of the woods, you should go or I will file the petition to have your membership revoked.

If you got mine revoked, I wouldn't complain.

ande
April 20th, 2011, 09:46 PM
Hey Herb,

your 50, 100 & 200 are
27.7, 1:01, 2:21
you swim 3-4 times a week. & go up to 4-5 for a couple of months to end the spring season. you do 2000-3000 SCM a workout.
you kick a 50 in a minute
you want to do a 5k later in the summer & will get your yardage up to 4000 f
not doing much Weight lifting
you're 6'1, 220 lbs
My knee was blown out and I have poor circulation in my legs and they are just overall weak.
wore a $30 jammer
didn't shave
didn't wear a cap

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

what were your splits for 100?

to go under 1:00, you need more speed
you went 27.7 in the 50, you need to be 27 low 26 high
develop the ability to take your 100 out in 28 low

do the testing and training I suggest for

Help My flutter Kick is Horrible
focus on improving your 25 kicking speed

Help my Speed is Horrible
focus on improving your 25 kicking speed

even if you're training for the 5k,
it won't hurt you to do a few fast 25s in every practice
do
6 x 25 swim
odds FAST on :20
evens very easy on :40
and
6 x 25 kick
odds FAST on :30
evens very easy on :50
Then do the rest of the workout you planned for the day

lose weight
go from 220 to 205, 200 or 195


swim 5 or 6 times a week, swim 3500 to 4000 a practice, sometimes pop it up to 4500 or more a practice


wear a faster suit

wear a cap

shave

train hard for a meet then rest a bit before it

Swimosaur
April 20th, 2011, 10:25 PM
Charlotte Davis has 101 USMS Top Ten times and 11 world records and she never swam in high school. She quit competitive swimming at age 13 to compete in synchro. PNA's Wet Set newsletter just did a story about her last month: http://www.swimpna.org/pdf/newsletter/2011/2011_03_Wet.pdf


Since the theme is breaking 1:00 in the 100 ... Charlotte Davis was the first woman over 60 to do it, at last year's SCY nationals. Here's the heat (http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/heat.php?MeetID=20100520SCCH10Y&Heat=7&Lane=5&Event=27).

Her splits were 29.35 + 30.06 = 59.41 ... A really beautiful swim!

Herb
April 20th, 2011, 10:51 PM
Ande, I went 29.3/32.4. I think it would be more my style to keep the difference under 2 seconds, but you are right I don't have the speed and swam pretty much all-out from the start as I knew I had to break 29 to even have a shot.
Last year I went 29.8/31.6.
I think an easier speed first 50 sub 29/31 is what I need.

Breathing slows me down a bit so I tried every 4 but did a handful of 2s as needed.

swimshark
April 21st, 2011, 08:07 AM
Since the theme is breaking 1:00 in the 100 ... Charlotte Davis was the first woman over 60 to do it, at last year's SCY nationals. Here's the heat (http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/heat.php?MeetID=20100520SCCH10Y&Heat=7&Lane=5&Event=27).

Her splits were 29.35 + 30.06 = 59.41 ... A really beautiful swim!

That's amazing! I am only 40 and still haven't done it.

ande
April 22nd, 2011, 11:04 AM
Herb,

If you want to swim your best possible 100 time, correct splitting is critical, essential, and absolutely necessary. I've written several SFF tips about it.

your swims were:

61.7
29.3 32.4
3.1 second difference (too much)

61.4
29.8 31.6
1.8 second difference
(notice you gave up 1/2 a second on the front end and picked up 8/10ths on the back end.)

The great thing is, your 100 time is 1:01. YOU are with in strinking distance for going under 1:00.

For correct splitting, ideally you want your:
1st 50 to be 1.0 to 1.5 slower than your all out 50 free time and
2nd 50 to be in the range of 1.5 to 2.0 slower than your first 50

your 50 was 27.7
ideal splits would be:
58.9 28.7 30.2 to 59.9 29.2 30.7

BUT since your 200 is 2:21, you're likely to get under sooner with more speed than with conditioning for longer swims.

The best way for you to get your 100 fr under 1:00 is
GET FASTER. Improve your 25 & 50 speed.

You recently went 27.7, IMPROVE your 50 to 26 high or FASTER

That alone will greatly increase your chances of breaking 1:00 in the 100 you can use easy speed on your first 50 then really pound that 2nd one.

Here's how you GET FASTER

Find out where you are now
Have someone time you with a watch for an ALL OUT 25
give the timer instructions on how you want them to time you
write down the date and time in 10ths
Do this once a week,
train to improve your ALL out 25 time

Lose weight

Get stronger: lift weights

in each practice:
Do several A.F.A.P. 12.5's & 25's
with plenty of rest like 45 seconds to 1:00 or even more between
swim & kick
do 2, 3, or 4 each

in practice a few times a week,
do 50's, 75's & 100's where you
negative split them or concentrate on really blasting that last 25
Again have a High REST to work ratio.

if you're doing 100's on 2:00 assume you hold 1:00's,
you swim 1:00 and rest 1:00 so your rest to work ratio is 60 sec / 60 sec = 1
if you did them on 3:00,
it would be 2, &
4:00 it would be 3,
but probably as you get more rest, you'll be able to hold faster times, so the rest vs work ratio goes up even more.

Lastly, train to obliterate 1:00 because it's more motivating and you'll have a bigger buffer for mistakes.

do the training, you will improve, keep us posted.
good luck,

ande


Ande, I went 29.3/32.4. I think it would be more my style to keep the difference under 2 seconds, but you are right I don't have the speed and swam pretty much all-out from the start as I knew I had to break 29 to even have a shot.
Last year I went 29.8/31.6.
I think an easier speed first 50 sub 29/31 is what I need.

Breathing slows me down a bit so I tried every 4 but did a handful of 2s as needed.

Herb
April 22nd, 2011, 07:12 PM
Thanks Ande. I won't swim SCY again until the fall or winter, but I will try to keep up with some sprints. It's boring just swimming long distance sets every day anyway. Less weight heading into the season can only help so I think that will be key. Sorry, I am drinking an ale right now but I am trying to turn my life around.

Swimosaur
April 23rd, 2011, 01:31 PM
Since the theme is breaking 1:00 in the 100 ... Charlotte Davis was the first woman over 60 to do it, at last year's SCY nationals. Here's the heat (http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/heat.php?MeetID=20100520SCCH10Y&Heat=7&Lane=5&Event=27).

Her splits were 29.35 + 30.06 = 59.41 ... A really beautiful swim!

Since the theme is "Breaking 1:00 in the 100 free SCY for the 1st time ..."

I guess I had too much time on my hands this week, so I wrote a script to query the USMS top 10 database and collect the #1 times in the 100 free for each year 1971-2010. Then I sorted through the lists and found who was the first woman or man in that age group to break 1:00 in the 100 SCY free, and added anyone else who also broke 1:00 that year. Some age groups don't appear in the tables, either because 1st has always been under a minute, or has never been under a minute.

Charlotte Davis has done it twice, being the first woman over 55 AND the first woman over 60 to break a minute. David Radcliff is tearing it up in M75-79. Is this a great sport, or what?

First <Gender> over <Age> to break 1:00 in the 100 SCY free

Women

W60-64 2010 Charlotte M Davis 60 PNA Pacific Northwest 59.41
W55-59 2005 Charlotte M Davis 55 PNA Pacific Northwest 59.08
W50-54 1993 Ardeth Mueller 51 SLAM Ozark 59.05
W45-49 1987 Ardeth Mueller 45 SLAM Ozark 57.91
........... Nancy Ridout 45 TAM Pacific 59.21
W40-44 1982 Ardeth Mueller 40 SLAM Ozark 58.47
........... Nancy Ridout 40 TAM Pacific 58.71
W35-39 1976 Joyce Burrell 35 MICH Michigan 59.53
W30-34 1975 Diana Todd 31 DCM Potomac Valley 57.50
........... Joyce Burrell 33 MICH Michigan 58.79
........... Nancy Ridout 33 MAC Pacific 59.97
W25-29 1972 Terri Mejia 26 SMMM Pacific 59.30

Men

M75-79 2009 David A Radcliff 75 OREG Oregon 58.68
M70-74 2002 Donald P Hill 70 TOC Pacific 58.35
........... Graham M. Johnston 71 MOST South Texas 58.86
M65-69 1987 Peter Powlison 65 HUMU Hawaii 56.24
M60-64 1978 Jim Welch 60 HMSC Hawaii 58.85
M55-59 1973 Jim Welch 55 WASC Hawaii 58.80

knelson
April 23rd, 2011, 03:46 PM
And does anyone here want to bet against Dave Radcliff doing it again when he turns 80? It ain't gonna be easy, but I sure wouldn't!

The name Pete Powlison looked familiar and it took me a couple minutes to realize why. He's a former All American swimmer at the University of Washington and his photo is on display at the UW pool. I've walked by it many times!

That Guy
April 23rd, 2011, 06:47 PM
Great list! Swimosaur, you win the internet. :applaud:

swimshark
April 23rd, 2011, 08:38 PM
And does anyone here want to bet against Dave Radcliff doing it again when he turns 80? It ain't gonna be easy, but I sure wouldn't!

The name Pete Powlison looked familiar and it took me a couple minutes to realize why. He's a former All American swimmer at the University of Washington and his photo is on display at the UW pool. I've walked by it many times!

I bet Dave will do it again. He's amazing.

taruky
April 24th, 2011, 10:45 AM
If you can do 1:02 in practice, I expect that with rest and a little luck, you will positively destroy the 1:00 barrier in a meet.

This brings up an interesting point. As I have not yet swam in a meet, I really don't know a reasonable expectation in a meet versus the middle of practice. For example, whenever I have timed myself in a 50 (best time off the wall 28) or a 100 (best time off the wall 1:11) it was in the middle of a practice, after I had swam at least a good 2000-3500 yards and with maybe a minute or two's rest. Granted, those yards may not have been particularly fast paced. I really don't know what it's like to just dive into the pool and swim after warming up and then resting 30-40 minutes, like you might do in a meet. I'm trying to psyche myself up to actually swim in a meet, but keep telling myself to get a little better first, lol.

Those of you with experience, does it help or hurt to be waiting for a period of time then just dive into a race. Are you too cold, or does the rest help you a lot. How might my race times compare to what I'm doing now? Of note, I'm still working on my dives. I did a little experiment to compare my starts from a stand and gentle push versus diving, and it was about the same. Work in progress.

Karl_S
April 24th, 2011, 11:35 AM
This brings up an interesting point. As I have not yet swam in a meet, I really don't know a reasonable expectation in a meet versus the middle of practice. For example, whenever I have timed myself in a 50 (best time off the wall 28) or a 100 (best time off the wall 1:11) it was in the middle of a practice, after I had swam at least a good 2000-3500 yards and with maybe a minute or two's rest. Granted, those yards may not have been particularly fast paced. I really don't know what it's like to just dive into the pool and swim after warming up and then resting 30-40 minutes, like you might do in a meet. I'm trying to psyche myself up to actually swim in a meet, but keep telling myself to get a little better first, lol.

Those of you with experience, does it help or hurt to be waiting for a period of time then just dive into a race. Are you too cold, or does the rest help you a lot. How might my race times compare to what I'm doing now? Of note, I'm still working on my dives. I did a little experiment to compare my starts from a stand and gentle push versus diving, and it was about the same. Work in progress.

I have several thoughts about your comments based on my pesonal experience.

1) I'm not sure if by "off the wall" you mean a dive start from the deck, (i.e. standing with your feet on the gutter) or a push start from in the water, but either way I'm a little surprised that if you can do :28 for a 50 your best 100 is 1:11. My best in-practice from-a-push 50 is only :30, but my best 100 is 1:03. Maybe you are more of a pure sprinter (I'm *very* far from a sprinter), or maybe you could benefit from work on speed endurance.

2) It's not surprising that your best swims in practice come after swimming 2-3k yds. By then you are well warmed up. IMO, lots of folks don't warm up enought at meets. They do like 100 ez and a few sprints and think they are warmed up. Your observation suggests to me that you will benefit from a substantial warmup. I'm not advocating 3k yds, but 1k is reasonable. One day a few summers ago I had a meet in the evening but wasn't focusing on it or anything, so I went ahead and did a hard 3500 yds in the morning - then surprised myself with a fast swim (for me) in the evening. Since then I have wondered if there was some residual warm-up effect.

3) You are right in your speculation that staying warmed up between the end of your warm-up swim and your race can be an issue. I'm a skinny guy and I get cold (and therefore stiff) easily. I dry off immediately after warm-up and the put on long pants and 2 or even 3 sweatshirts depending on the air temperature. Last summer at a late afternoon meet the air temperature was over 100 F. Lots of people were apparently uncomfortable, I swam 3 personal best times. Warm muscles are fast muscules I say, (but hydration is an issue in such hot temperatures).

4) If your 50 times are the same from a dive as from a push, it sounds like you can get a big time drop by improving your start, unless you are timing in some funny way when you swim from a push. I use the head going under water as the clock start when I time from a push.

5) I encourage you to do a meet. They are fun! Besides, what better way is there to find out what you need to work on most?

Herb
April 24th, 2011, 12:49 PM
I think the amount of warm-up can vary a lot from person to person. Maybe if you are in better shape and used to doing a lot of yards you need more. Me, I have a limited amount in the tank and don't want to waste much energy warming up. A couple of hundred yards really easy and a couple of 25 sprints is what I do. I almost think if I did zero warm-up my time would be just as good, but I at least just want to get my muscles eased into swimming a little so I won't pull something.
I see some people using kickboards in a warm-up and that would be insanity for me to do. That's not warming up that is getting my legs sore.
I don't really understand the point of warm-ups in workouts either. I do the same 150 really easy every time and then go to a main set. I guess if it is to tack on yardage and add to your aerobic conditioning I can see that benefit. But if I am going to do a set of 10X200s, why would I need to swim a non-stop 800 first?
Of-course, I am not a very good swimmer so shouldn't be giving advice. I will say just sign-up for a meet and just do it. I did it knowing I wasn't as prepared as I wanted, but there is no pressure in these things and then you get a base time to improve from.
My times also decrease a lot in races from meets. If I were to swim 2000+ my 100 time would prolly be about 1:13. If I did less than a 1000 I could go 1:07-1:10 and then in a meet I go 1:01-1:03.

Karl_S
April 24th, 2011, 02:04 PM
I think the amount of warm-up can vary a lot from person to person. ...
No doubt that's true


I see some people using kickboards in a warm-up and that would be insanity for me to do. That's not warming up that is getting my legs sore.
'gotta agree with you there. That sounds like a good route to a slow time!


I don't really understand the point of warm-ups in workouts either. I do the same 150 really easy every time and then go to a main set. I guess if it is to tack on yardage and add to your aerobic conditioning I can see that benefit. But if I am going to do a set of 10X200s, why would I need to swim a non-stop 800 first?
For me the necessity of a long warmup depends to some degree on the pool temperature and, as you suggest, to some degree on what set I intend to do first. If I am going to sprint in a cold pool, it had better be at least 1k yds of warmup or I will regret it! If I am going to do 10x200 in a warm pool, no sense to spend a lot of time warming up.


Of-course, I am not a very good swimmer so shouldn't be giving advice.
Me either, but I like to think that people may find value in reading about our personal experiences.


I will say just sign-up for a meet and just do it. I did it knowing I wasn't as prepared as I wanted, but there is no pressure in these things and then you get a base time to improve from...

Yup.

taruky
April 24th, 2011, 02:39 PM
I have several thoughts about your comments based on my pesonal experience.

1) I'm not sure if by "off the wall" you mean a dive start from the deck, (i.e. standing with your feet on the gutter) or a push start from in the water, but either way I'm a little surprised that if you can do :28 for a 50 your best 100 is 1:11. My best in-practice from-a-push 50 is only :30, but my best 100 is 1:03. Maybe you are more of a pure sprinter (I'm *very* far from a sprinter), or maybe you could benefit from work on speed endurance.

2) It's not surprising that your best swims in practice come after swimming 2-3k yds. By then you are well warmed up. IMO, lots of folks don't warm up enought at meets. They do like 100 ez and a few sprints and think they are warmed up. Your observation suggests to me that you will benefit from a substantial warmup. I'm not advocating 3k yds, but 1k is reasonable. One day a few summers ago I had a meet in the evening but wasn't focusing on it or anything, so I went ahead and did a hard 3500 yds in the morning - then surprised myself with a fast swim (for me) in the evening. Since then I have wondered if there was some residual warm-up effect.

3) You are right in your speculation that staying warmed up between the end of your warm-up swim and your race can be an issue. I'm a skinny guy and I get cold (and therefore stiff) easily. I dry off immediately after warm-up and the put on long pants and 2 or even 3 sweatshirts depending on the air temperature. Last summer at a late afternoon meet the air temperature was over 100 F. Lots of people were apparently uncomfortable, I swam 3 personal best times. Warm muscles are fast muscules I say, (but hydration is an issue in such hot temperatures).

4) If your 50 times are the same from a dive as from a push, it sounds like you can get a big time drop by improving your start, unless you are timing in some funny way when you swim from a push. I use the head going under water as the clock start when I time from a push.

5) I encourage you to do a meet. They are fun! Besides, what better way is there to find out what you need to work on most?
Thanks for the response. My off the wall push is essentially me looking back at the digital clock behind me, I see it hit the minute mark, and immediately turn and push off the wall gently, coming up and stroking before the flags. The reason I'm not pushing hard is that I'm afraid it would make me faster than my dive time (yeah my dive is not good yet) and I want to get a real sense of my pure swimming speed.

As for my 100, probably a combination of endurance and perhaps I'm expending more energy on a 50 than most good swimmers. The other issue is that I'm not the best breather.

aztimm
April 24th, 2011, 07:38 PM
I think the amount of warm-up can vary a lot from person to person.

This is very true. I've seen some of the blogs, one in particular where someone does IM for meet warm-up. Since I don't really even do fly, just the thought of that makes my head spin.
As for kicking...there are some swimmers with a really fast kick, and maybe they think that needs to be warmed-up on its own. As long as they're not interfering with the other swimmers, I don't have an issue.
Depending on what I'm swimming for a workout, I usually do at least a 500 warm-up, usually closer to 1000. The warm-up doesn't have to be just aerobic swimming, it could include kicking, pulling, stroke, drills, etc. Since I swim in the morning most of the time, I try to get my heart rate a little higher, my body warm and ready to do the main set. Our coach had us do a 100 fast off the blocks right at the beginning once, then again later in the set...I was at least 3 seconds faster the 2nd time (he was trying to prove a point not to just stand on deck chatting but get in and do something).

In an ideal world, I'd do about 1500 to 2000 warm-up at the beginning of a meet, then about 300 before + after each event. I try to time it that I get out of the warm-up pool just a few minutes before my heat, so I don't really have time to cool that much. As soon as I finish an event, I like to get right back in to warm-down.

shahboz
April 24th, 2011, 08:35 PM
I do the same 150 really easy every time and then go to a main set. .

While warm up time varies 150y is not even close to a good warm up. Sorry. I would argue that masters swimmers need longer warm ups and cool downs to begin with. You risk injury and quite honestly your body needs to "know" its time to work. That does not mean a straight 800 swim but 800 worth of quality drills, long strokes and mental preparations. After that maybe a transition set and then the main set. A transition set could be something like 6 50ies kick at a mid-level to fast pace. And yes this can all be accomplished in a 3000y workout.

Maybe a more robust warm up might help with you getting under a minute? It might allow you to work harder in practice and at meets get you prepared to really race. Personally, I need to get my heart rate up before I sprint. Build sprints are part of my pre-race "event prior" warm up.

Herb
April 24th, 2011, 09:10 PM
I would theorize that there is likely a correlation between those that need long warm-ups and their ability to achieve practice times closer to their race times. And further that these types are usually better a distance events.

swimshark
April 25th, 2011, 07:42 AM
I would theorize that there is likely a correlation between those that need long warm-ups and their ability to achieve practice times closer to their race times. And further that these types are usually better a distance events.

Not for me. We usually do around 1200 for warm-up in practice. Yet I can't get close to my fastest times when we do an "all out" swim for time off the blocks. I'm one that does much better at a meet. So I warm up long but can't get my meet times in practice.

Taruky, just got for it. Do a meet! I think you'll find that you really enjoy competing.

shahboz
April 25th, 2011, 10:53 AM
I would theorize that there is likely a correlation between those that need long warm-ups and their ability to achieve practice times closer to their race times. And further that these types are usually better a distance events.

Um no... Take a look at the warmups of elite (swimming) sprinters and then make this statement. In order to compete at your peak you need to warmup sufficiently. This goes for any sport. Go ask an elite running sprinter to warmup for 2 minutes (time it takes to swim a 150) and then go run their best time... they will laugh at you. Sorry to be a troll, but your statements are a somewhat off.

Im a sprinter... I need at least 1000 warmup and then a warmup with some high intensity right before the event. Im about to turn 43 and can do 23.0 (i want to be 22 this year) in the 50 and 48 in the 100 free in jammers... Not amazingly fast in the grand scheme of things but I do ok. It took me 2 years to get under 50 which I would equate to your 1:00.

If you want to get faster you may want to look at how you train and make modifications to benefit your training. One thing would be better warmups and I would assume a lot of drill work, then go after the intensity.

Herb
April 26th, 2011, 10:57 PM
Well, it was just my own theory and might very well be completely wrong. Yet I would ask what evidence you have to the contrary (races with minimal warm-ups with race times)? We are creatures of habit yet many of the practices that were once assumed to be truth were later proved wrong. I know I have seen some elite Masters swimmers race great times with minimal warm-ups.

The great thing about Masters is that we can do what we want. I think we know our own bodies and what will work for us. My workouts could very well vary to my benefit and increase dramatically in volume (if I had the time). If I was conditioned at a different level perhaps I would need a different warm-up.

knelson
April 26th, 2011, 11:46 PM
I always feel like I swim better with a good warmup, but I'm not really sure I couldn't just get in and start swimming. I usually do this for open water swims, for example, and have no problems getting going.

Maui Mike
April 27th, 2011, 12:21 AM
I first broke a minute about 52 years ago and the last time I did it was over 40 years ago. But now life has once again allowed me to get back in the pool on a regular basis and I'm loving it. Can only handle about 1200 yards/workout about 3 times/week over the last couple months and my best workout 100 was about 1:23 (from a push, grab turns, floppy cotton surf trunks), but my goal is to break a minute by the end of summer. After reading these very informative posts I guess my typical warmup of driving to the pool with the heater on will have to be ramped up. And the cool down is a totally new idea --- sounds like it should help lessen the next day pain and soreness. Thanks all.

shahboz
April 27th, 2011, 02:02 PM
@ Herb
Enjoy... BTW good luck getting under a minute.

http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2010/01000/Effects_of_Warming_up_on_Physical_Performance__A.2 1.aspx

"Warm-up was shown to improve performance in 79% of the criterions examined."

And a bunch more:
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/pages/results.aspx?k=warm%20up&Scope=AllIssues&txtKeywords=warm%20up&ThisIssue=http://journals.na.lww.com/content/nsca-jscr/2010/01000

There are many more out there just do a search...

shahboz
April 27th, 2011, 03:15 PM
...and while knowing your body is one thing and working out to ones limits is important. Throwing out traditional and proven training techniques shows a level of arrogance and inexperience. I would suggest a good coach in helping you reach your goals.

Luca
April 27th, 2011, 05:19 PM
Throwing out traditional and proven training techniques shows a level of arrogance and inexperience.
This way of thinking won't get anybody anywhere.

Herb
April 27th, 2011, 10:15 PM
"warm-up was effective in 79% of the criterions examined". That seems to mean that 21% are wasting their time. That is more evidence to support my point than I would have even expected, although I would be more interested in swimming data. Even I do warm up and I would tend do a little more for a sprint, at least a couple of short sprints so my body isn't going from rest to all-out. But if I thought there was any chance that swimming 2000 yards of warm-up was going to help me drop 2 seconds in the 100 free believe me I would be all over it.
But I accept the fact that I am an idiot and completely wrong. Just throwing things out there and having fun so don't get too upset about it.

__steve__
April 27th, 2011, 11:51 PM
Maybe I'm not warmig up enough, I usually do 25 for my 50

Rykno
April 28th, 2011, 05:40 AM
I'm trying to break 1:00 in 100scm as a masters swimmer. My best time when active was 52.2 yds so that is roughly 58.0 scm. so I am by no means a freestyler.

of all the events I swim now compared to then, the 50 and 100 free are closest. my best 50fr outside a relay was 24.4 --> roughly 27.0.

My goals for freestyle as a Masters swimmer
under 1:00 currently 1:00.9
under 27:0 currently 27.68

my problem is that when I try to swim faster in these short events, I swim significantly less effecient, my amrs just move faster through the water, but I don't go forward faster. The last time I swam a 200scm I opened 1:01.8 less than one second from my "max", but I was laid back, just pushing through the water with control. all of my splits for that race were
29.44, 32.36, 33.72, 35.43 obviously I died in the last 50, but for me a less than a second difference is good.

I find it hard to be a decent freestyler if you train for Breast and IM, but I don't like going to a meet and only swimming 2-3 events/day.

swimshark
April 28th, 2011, 07:46 AM
my problem is that when I try to swim faster in these short events, I swim significantly less effecient, my amrs just move faster through the water, but I don't go forward faster. The last time I swam a 200scm I opened 1:01.8 less than one second from my "max", but I was laid back, just pushing through the water with control. .

I call that panic swimming and I do it often, too. I work with my coach a lot to not panic swim in practice so that I can relax more in a meet. It helped my last 1000 where I took 4 sec off the time and was totally relaxed the first 500.

shahboz
April 28th, 2011, 07:53 AM
@Herb

Couple the performance results with injury prevention and the benefits of warm up strongly out-weigh a non-warm up strategy. Im just, if not more concerned about injury prevention during warmup. And with a large new athlete and geriatric population it is even more important.

geochuck
April 29th, 2011, 12:53 PM
How to pull in order to swim fast Gary Hall, there is a little ad before the actual video appears.
http://www.theraceclub.net/videos/secret-tip-how-to-pull-in-freestyle/