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Celestial
May 29th, 2011, 12:43 PM
I have the lofty goal of being able to go 50-100 LCM fly without toys. I can currently go about 25 yards. Can anyone help me devise a plan day by day of what to do to strengthen my shoulders/body enough to be able to do this? I do have fairly good rhythm - I used to race the 200 fly as a kid & can still kick fly well, and of course, I am most impressive when I wear my little zoomers - but even with zoomers, my arms start to die, and then I run out of breath around 37.5 meters. Any great ideas out there? Thanks!

That Guy
May 29th, 2011, 12:53 PM
With plenty of rest between each, how many 25's can you do before your technique falls apart?

orca1946
May 29th, 2011, 03:32 PM
After each stroke, hold & glide for one sec. them go for the next stroke.
I went 1,000 yards doing this!!!!!!!!!

orca1946
May 29th, 2011, 03:32 PM
After each stroke, hold & glide for one sec. then go for the next stroke.
I went 1,000 yards doing this!!!!!!!!!

Celestial
May 29th, 2011, 04:37 PM
With plenty of rest? Like when I stop gasping for air? Probably 10-16.

Celestial
May 29th, 2011, 04:40 PM
After each stroke, hold & glide for one sec. then go for the next stroke.
I went 1,000 yards doing this!!!!!!!!!

Eah, that's what I do at about 37.5yds/mtrs - trying to get a 50 in with a continuous stroke.:)

nkfrench
May 29th, 2011, 06:02 PM
My fly endurance improved when I quit relying on my triceps and focused on getting my lats into it. I also do better with a ballistic recovery instead of pulling the arms forward.

I do a lot better breathing every stroke not jutting my chin out but keeping my neck straight/aligned. I have lumps in my thyroid that make it difficult to breathe when I hyperextend the neck. I can't recover with my face in the water due to some flexibility limits; I do have to have body undulation to avoid dragging the arms.

Getting the body rhythm right (with some natural buoyancy) made it so I don't need to rely on a punishing kick just to get high enough for the recovery and breath. My stroke is flatter than average. I love swimming breaststroke with fins/dolphin kick for getting used to the balance aspect of the short-axis strokes.

My kick is almost non-propulsive. I just use it to get my body balanced and to finish the stroke. Even wearing fins, I don't kick much. I only have 45 seconds worth of hard kicking before I blow up.

Everybody has different situations so the classic rules may not work best for you. Try different things.

Red60
May 29th, 2011, 06:19 PM
I also do better with a ballistic recovery instead of pulling the arms forward.

What does this mean?

taruky
May 29th, 2011, 06:26 PM
One of the the things my coach told me that really helped was to stop trying to pull myself up on each stroke, especially when breathing. You sometimes feel like you need to pull yourself up so those arms can get way out of the water. Well, don't worry so much about the arms fully clearing the water on the recovery, especially early on. Keep them relaxed and let touch the water a little. Eventually as you get better you will clear the water without even thinking about it. Just concentrate on minimizing your up and down, or floating as you do the fly. Yeah there will be a little up and down of the chest as you do the body dolphin but let that be a natural part of the dolphin kick rather than a conscious effort to pull yourself up. Think pulling yourself forward.

That Guy
May 29th, 2011, 06:58 PM
With plenty of rest? Like when I stop gasping for air? Probably 10-16.

I think that working to slowly increase this number, and slowly decrease the amount of rest needed between 25's, will result in being able to conquer longer distances.

couldbebetterfly
May 29th, 2011, 07:37 PM
Based on my recent weeks of working up to the 200 fly, I have the following offerings:

1. Make sure you are kicking from the chest down. Starting small with fins, 25 at a time and gradually working up to 200m/yd continuous, then doing it without fins really helped my fly when I started back at it last year. Although if you have a good kick already this might be redundant advice.

2. Like Orca said - glide with your arms outstretched at the end of the recovery to keep the stroke long.

3. Keep up the forward movement when you breathe. I think I actually used to stop dead for a split second!

4. Completely empty your lungs of air before breathing. I only realised I wasn't always doing this a couple of weeks ago, and that I was getting all short of breath and tight in my chest becasue my lungs were still full and I was trying to breathe more air in. I mainly breathe every 2, but am switching to a 2,1,1, pattern for the 2nd half of the 200 so I can keep up the speed. However if I start out with breathing like this, I somehow end up short of breath, even though I'm breathing more often - go figure!

5. Build up gradually 25s, then 50s, then 75s, then 100s. I actually did these on a really long interval, so I could complete the total set, and each week I kept the total distance the same (eg 8 x 50 for a couple of weeks, then 6 x 75, then 4 x 100)

6. Don't worry about how fast you do it, warm up well beforehand and relax.

It was a huge shock to go from swimming SCY to LCM a few weeks ago, I just had to stretch it out and wait for the end of the pool.

nkfrench
May 29th, 2011, 11:39 PM
What does this mean?
I may have mis-stated it.

Ballistic recovery is like a stretched rubberband snapping back to normal length - a rebound. To do that, I need to have a strong finish to the stroke.

Debugger
May 30th, 2011, 04:38 AM
I don't think all these advises gonna help much. You'd better find coach. Since you can't go even 50 that means you have serious problems with technique and you are trying to swim by strength not by technique.
Things which helped me:
1. Head always leads the hands. Your head should come for air before hands come out for recovery and it should go into water before hands. This makes better body position and prevents plow position in the water which causes much drag.
2. Decrease ups and downs. Hands should be very low over water during recovery. Your chin should touch water when you breath in air - don't lift your head too high! Also don't go too deep after recovery.
3. I did a lot 3+3+3 drill - 3 strokes with right hand, 3 with left and 3 full stroke. This is excellent drill to get a feeling you can swim longer.
4. Train your shoulders. I couldn't swim much fly because my shoulders were getting exhausted too fast because my shoulders where too weak and also I did a high recovery.

thewookiee
May 30th, 2011, 10:48 AM
I don't think all these advises gonna help much.


Celeste,

Can you take a video(s) of your stroke and post them here? A front shot and a side shot will give people a better idea of what you are doing when you swim fly. Then coaches and flyers on here will be able to give you ADVICE THAT WILL HELP improve your fly

Debugger
May 30th, 2011, 11:51 AM
Celeste,

Can you take a video(s) of your stroke and post them here? A front shot and a side shot will give people a better idea of what you are doing when you swim fly. Then coaches and flyers on here will be able to give you ADVICE THAT WILL HELP improve your fly
Agree, that would be better... but still I would recommend to take couple lessons with coach. Because no one can guarantee that you gonna do everything correctly after you hear all good advices and even see video tutorials. You need to hear corrections at the spot as well as to hear when you improve to remember your feelings in the water.

thewookiee
May 30th, 2011, 05:38 PM
Agree, that would be better... but still I would recommend to take couple lessons with coach. Because no one can guarantee that you gonna do everything correctly after you hear all good advices and even see video tutorials. You need to hear corrections at the spot as well as to hear when you improve to remember your feelings in the water.

That is very true. But, withouth video, with the information that she has provided, people are providing the best possible advice from their personal experiences.

As with anything else in this sport, some tips will work great for her with needing a coach. Others won't be as effective. I agree a coach is the best option but without one, seeking advice on the forum is the next best one.

Karl_S
May 30th, 2011, 06:25 PM
Things which helped me:
1. Head always leads the hands. Your head should come for air before hands come out for recovery and it should go into water before hands. This makes better body position and prevents plow position in the water which causes much drag.
FWIW - this was the most helpful single piece of advice anyone ever gave me about fly, especially the second half, the head has to go down before the hands.

Celestial
May 30th, 2011, 10:39 PM
Thanks you guys! These are all great ideas. Sad thing, Debugger, I DO have a coach of sorts - but he's not too into stroke technique - he sorta tolerates my presence in the USA-S practice that he coaches (I am the only person over the age of 25 in the practice & my birth year is 1959).
Wookie, I'll try & get my son to video me this next weekend so you can all laugh at my pathetic-ness. He is a college swimmer & has tried to help me some - but he's a breast stroker & not too strong at fly either.
Here's some sad news - was informed that I needed to help my husband lift our canoe on top of the car after our little trip down the Suwanee today - Ha ha! Guess that explains my lack of strength on the fly! (Had to get someone else to lift the #*%!! canoe!)

Debugger
May 31st, 2011, 04:54 AM
Thanks you guys! These are all great ideas. Sad thing, Debugger, I DO have a coach of sorts - but he's not too into stroke technique - he sorta tolerates my presence in the USA-S practice that he coaches (I am the only person over the age of 25 in the practice & my birth year is 1959).
Wookie, I'll try & get my son to video me this next weekend so you can all laugh at my pathetic-ness. He is a college swimmer & has tried to help me some - but he's a breast stroker & not too strong at fly either.
Here's some sad news - was informed that I needed to help my husband lift our canoe on top of the car after our little trip down the Suwanee today - Ha ha! Guess that explains my lack of strength on the fly! (Had to get someone else to lift the #*%!! canoe!)
Celestial, here's something to encourage you. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2175526.stm
Her technique is far from being perfect but still I consider it's a kinda miracle. Mind that Julie was born in 1964.
So I'm pretty sure you can do 100m fly! Have you ever thought about finding another coach?

ande
May 31st, 2011, 10:22 AM
Celestial,

you can do a 50, 75 & even 100 fly

1) warm up then put on a speedy suit


2) REST 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 minutes before attempting your 50 fly

3) make up your mind that YOU are going to swim a legal 50 fly

4) dive in & do 12 to 15 SDKs,
which should get you to 10 to 14 meters, before taking a single stroke,

5) swim easy speed fly, which is fast yet smooth & easy,
feel like you could easily intensify your efforts to go faster but DON'T
on each stroke, Start pulling as soon as your hands hit the water out front
Do small gentle smooth kicks while swimming, don't kick as hard as you can
Breathe every stroke or every other

6) be determined to keep moving till you get to the wall,
if you feel OK at the 50, keep going and do a 75 or 100

7) have a friend with an Iphone make a video of you swimming fly
shoot the following angles
1) head on, towards and away,
2) from the side, &
3) from above
have them shoot from the stands or from the end of a 3 meter board or 5 or higher meter platform
YOUTUBE it and give us a link

8) get in better shape,
train for the 200 & 500 free
how many times a week do you train?
how far do you go in practice?
Do FAST FRIDAYS

9) get stronger, do drylands, lift weights or do BANDS / Stretch Cords / Power Cords[/ame]"]BANDS (Tip 246 The Butterfly Lane


11) improve your SDK & speed
Build a Fortress of Speed & Strength




I have the lofty goal of being able to go 50-100 LCM fly without toys. I can currently go about 25 yards.
Can anyone help me devise a plan day by day of what to do to strengthen my shoulders/body enough to be able to do this?
I do have fairly good rhythm - I used to race the 200 fly as a kid & can still kick fly well, and of course, I am most impressive when I wear my little zoomers - but even with zoomers, my arms start to die, and then I run out of breath around 37.5 meters.
Any great ideas out there? Thanks!

Celestial
May 31st, 2011, 07:03 PM
Ande - thanks for the great advice - gotta wait until Saturday to get a video of me, as I train at 5:30am outside (in the dark - and my videographer is in the pool with me!) As to your questions: I swim 4-6 times a week & get 4500-5000 LCM in 90% of the time - I usually take 75-90 minutes to do this, as I now train with our local age group team & there are built in rest periods per the coach. I think I AM training for the 200 & 500 - you can check out my blog for some of my workouts - don't always put the intervals, but you'll get the idea. I'm surely not a sprinter!! I actually can do a legal 50 fly - but it is dreadful at the end - I think I go out too fast & run out of air - which leads me to the SDK - I have horrible breath control - tiny excuse - when I was little I lost 1/4 of one lung & 1/3 of the other due to disease & surgery - which is how I got into swimming - so my lung power is what it is!! I can go 37.5 underwater (w/zoomers) no breathers x 2 and then I'm gasping! And I can go 50 meters sprint free from a dive no breather too - but I hate it!! Anyways, my point is that the SDK wears me out so much that then I can't swim, lol!! So many excuses - I'm starting my pushups & hopefully my bowflex tonight. Hope I don't over do it & ruin my first LCM meet on June 10th! Slow & steady when it comes to weight lifting for me!!:bliss::bolt: