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View Full Version : Does swimming "inform" muscle growth? A dryland/weights q.



BigBrother
June 10th, 2011, 10:43 PM
Ok, so here's the thing. I know well and good by now that swimming does not really build substantial muscle mass. If there was any doubt, all you'd have to do is look at someone like Mark Spitz- an Olympic champion who clearly would have swam enough to see any of the benefits swimming had to offer:

http://www.tierraunica.com/.a/6a00e551962103883300e55419aa128834-800wi

Compare that though to today's champions:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z2pvpfssa5w/THHEjg6e1eI/AAAAAAAANc4/xzxJXrys1y0/s1600/ryanlochte.jpg

http://www.popstarsplus.com/images/MichaelPhelpsPicture.jpg

Obviously huge by comparison. Now, the simple answer might be "weights. These guys do a lot more dryland than they did back in the day". But here's the thing- in all my years of lifting, I have never once seen anyone lifting beside me at the gym built like these guys. The people I see are jacked, sure, but proportioned very differently- and I've seen hundreds if not thousands of guys who were serious about weights!

The only time I *did* see, in person, people who looked like the pics above were, no big surprise, the guys on the local college's swim team.

So I contacted the coach and she was kind enough to send me their dryland routine- and guess what? Incline bench, deadlifts, flys, laterals, etc. etc. etc. In other words, the same identical program that countless weightlifters use every day. There was no magic formula to it.

So this left me really confused. Swimming alone doesn't build this sort of physique. But weights alone don't do it either.

Is their some sort of magic I'm missing here? Does something happen with the combination of the two that results in this type of build?

Please chime in if you have a lot of dryland experience or, even more so, if you're actually built like this from doing these things!

Thanks so much for your help,
BB

__steve__
June 11th, 2011, 01:26 AM
I guess any masters swimer that lift's weight seriously is probably built like that, underneath a little fat maybe. It just takes diet, body building along with off season training and nutrition to lower body fat to look like that so you can make more money with ads.

The thing is, the way you appear is not going to make you any faster.

BigBrother
June 11th, 2011, 01:39 AM
Well, in case it wasn't blatantly obvious :), I'm using swimming and weights for overall build and fitness, not really to compete. All respect due of course to those of you who do, but for me it's more of a fitness approach than anything else.

Thanks though and keep it coming!

nkfrench
June 11th, 2011, 05:45 PM
Do not underestimate the influence of genes on ability to pack on muscle.

People will tend to participate in a sport where their innate body type is not holding them back.

Swimming is a technique-limited sport. You can only get so far on sheer muscle power. Back in the 60's/70's I believe the 50m free was not an Olympic event.

Jazz Hands
June 11th, 2011, 05:55 PM
You started a thread less than a year ago to ask this exact question, and I answered you in some depth. I told you to quit over-analyzing everything and go do some freaking chin-ups. I'm going to make a wild guess here and presume that you continued to freak out and over-analyze without actually doing any work. So go away now.

A few years ago I personally designed a program for a guy who was originally shaped like a twig and is now shaped like an Olympic swimmer. Here's the program:

Weighted chin-up, 5-8 reps
Barbell bench press, 5-8 reps
Trap bar deadlift, 5-8 reps

Three days a week. Do it and stop thinking for a while. You'll feel better.

__steve__
June 11th, 2011, 06:24 PM
I second what Jazz said.:)

Regarding that picture of Spitz, I bet if he spent an honest 30 min in the weight room, 3 times a week, while increasing protein consumption he would have the same build within a half year. Without juice of course (if that's the underlying question in this thread, I recall a former one?)

An interesting question would be how it would have effected his swimming. Improvement in shorter races for sure.

BigBrother
June 11th, 2011, 09:11 PM
You started a thread less than a year ago to ask this exact question, and I answered you in some depth. I told you to quit over-analyzing everything and go do some freaking chin-ups. I'm going to make a wild guess here and presume that you continued to freak out and over-analyze without actually doing any work. So go away now.

A few years ago I personally designed a program for a guy who was originally shaped like a twig and is now shaped like an Olympic swimmer. Here's the program:

Weighted chin-up, 5-8 reps
Barbell bench press, 5-8 reps
Trap bar deadlift, 5-8 reps

Three days a week. Do it and stop thinking for a while. You'll feel better.

No, you didn't answer me in depth at all, and did not sufficiently answer my question. Had I been content with what I had heard, I wouldn't be asking again.

All you recommended was "weights" and then "chinups". Go look up our own posts. Lats are not the part I'm concerned with and neither of the pictures I posted show enormous lats. You want enormous lats, this is it:

http://image.exercisesfacts.info/images/weightliftingworkouts.net/wp-content/uploads/mvbthumbs/img_793_big-back-workout-and-lat-workout-training-back-lat-pulldown-train-lats.jpg

And is exactly the sort of build I said I'm not going for. What the target pics above show are a large chest and upper back, but relatively modest traps, bis, tris, lats, etc.

Was there some wisdom in the previous thread? Yes. Did I get the answer I was looking for? No. And certainly not from you. So I posted again thinking some new blood might have joined and might chime in.

If your goal is to help, you've already told me what you know. If it's to be right, congrats. I've already absorbed what you have to say and frankly, I'm not impressed, nor did it answer my question. All the routines you mentioned are already in my workouts.

It's time for you to go away now.

Jazz Hands
June 11th, 2011, 09:18 PM
:blah: :blah: :blah:

I read this as "No, I haven't been lifting at all."

I just told you how to do exactly what you want, based on the fact that I've seen it work for a non-swimmer. You think there's some other magic involved?

Also, back up. This is not a bodybuilding forum. This is a swimming forum. People here care and know about swimming fast. "Looking like a swimmer" isn't the point, and if you pulled your head out of your ass you'd realize that there's a lot of diversity in how fast swimmers actually look.

BigBrother
June 11th, 2011, 09:26 PM
I read this as "No, I haven't been lifting at all."

You can read it as the New Testament for all I care. I lifted like a mad man in the intervening time, including chinups. Guess what? I still have my question.

I never asked how to add mass. This isn't a bodybuilding forum. I asked if swimming (perhaps in a certain way) has an influence on the results that weights provide.

Honestly, why are you still answering? I got your knowledge already. Go away.

To anyone else still reading. This is the question, distilled to its most basic form:

Two people, same relative build and metabolism. One does a standard weight routine as discussed above. The other does the exact same routine, but alternates workout days with sprinting in each of the strokes (say 2 per workout). Will both build in the same way?

That's it.

Jazz Hands
June 11th, 2011, 09:30 PM
You can read it as the New Testament for all I care. I lifted like a mad man in the intervening time, including chinups. Guess what? I still have my question.

Because you still hate your body?

BigBrother
June 11th, 2011, 09:32 PM
Because you still hate your body?

Lordy do you have issues man. Yeah, I hate my body, which is why I posted pics of myself in my previous thread.

Can someone with something constructive chime in? Or at least tell me what this guy's problem is?

Jazz Hands
June 11th, 2011, 09:36 PM
You know, it's Saturday night. Everybody has something better to do except you and me. Just you and "Jazz Hands," who thinks he's all that, when he's totally not! Like, what does even know about lifting or swimming? He probably looks like the bodybuilder with zombie eyes or something, and nothing like the picture of Ryan Lochte that isn't actually a picture of Ryan Lochte.

swimshark
June 11th, 2011, 09:47 PM
Two people, same relative build and metabolism. One does a standard weight routine as discussed above. The other does the exact same routine, but alternates workout days with sprinting in each of the strokes (say 2 per workout). Will both build in the same way?

That's it.

To get back to you question, no. They won't be the same because of genetics. There are uber fast guys in my swim team (age group). Some look a bit like a marshmallow. The others are built like Lochte. All are equally fast but genetics changes the way they look.

BigBrother
June 11th, 2011, 09:59 PM
To get back to you question, no. They won't be the same because of genetics. There are uber fast guys in my swim team (age group). Some look a bit like a marshmallow. The others are built like Lochte. All are equally fast but genetics changes the way they look.

Swimshark, thank you, narrowing in on my question. But this is why I should have specified same relative genetics. Put another way- the same person spends a year doing each of the above. Will the swimming affect the muscle mass gained?

You'll agree with me that anyone who lifts hard will gain some muscle. I'm just trying to deduce if, regardless of genetics, there will be a "sway" because of sprinting.

Thrashing Slug
June 11th, 2011, 09:59 PM
This thread is funny. :worms:

I can answer the original question in an anecdotal manner based on my own personal experience. I lifted a lot when I was younger but I didn't start swimming until my 30s, and since then I've gone through periods of swimming+lifting as well as swimming only. Conclusion: yes, the combination of swimming and weights yields a different build than weights alone, and a different build from swimming only. I like swimming+weights the best, and not only for aesthetic reasons. It's good for injury prevention and overall strength and power.

I spend about 1/3 of my swim workouts doing comfortable aerobic work. The rest is either suffering at threshold pace or all-out sprinting with significant (though never enough, unless I'm swimming alone) rest. Right now I'm swimming 5x/wk and lifting 2 or 3x/wk. I don't look like Lochte or Phelps, but I look more like that than I did in college when I was only lifting.

How much time and intensity are you devoting to swimming vs. weights? Maybe the key is to approach both with the same intensity, but devote more time overall to swimming.

By the way I agree with Jazz that it's stupid to chase a particular body type. Then again I also think it's stupid to obsess over athletic performance. But I still do that sometimes, so who am I to judge :D

BigBrother
June 11th, 2011, 10:15 PM
Slug- a lucid, relevant, and, most important of all, applicable example!!! Thank you- this is exactly the sort of A vs. B experience I was looking for.

Is chasing a physique silly? Sure, why not. But then gyms across the globe are packed with the silly :). At least in this way (and with knowledge like yours) I can do it in the most efficient manner and get to the point where I'm maintaining what I've earned, as opposed to chasing.

If it matters, this is me and my genetic predisposition:

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/af267/BigBrother70/temp.jpg

As you can tell, it's at least within reaching distance of what I'm going for. Had I been starting from someplace wildly different, I'd agree it'd be a fool's errand.

To answer your question, I don't know what the right ratio is, so right now I'm going for a simple alternation. Three days a week- weights, swim, weights, swim, etc. For the swim portion I'm shooting for all out sprinting to increase distance. On any given day, I'll take two of the strokes and, after warmup, just go for an all out killer to see how far I can go on max burners with each stroke. And then the next time I do those two, I'll seek to increase each by a half or full length. Basically just applying the killer-set approach from weightlifting (which has worked for me) to swimming.

That's about it.

(and you see Jazz Hands, this was all I needed, nothing more! :) )

swimshark
June 12th, 2011, 06:30 AM
Swimshark, thank you, narrowing in on my question. But this is why I should have specified same relative genetics. Put another way- the same person spends a year doing each of the above. Will the swimming affect the muscle mass gained?

You'll agree with me that anyone who lifts hard will gain some muscle. I'm just trying to deduce if, regardless of genetics, there will be a "sway" because of sprinting.

As a non-sprinter, I'm not sure. And yet we mostly train sprinting.

My sister is one of those with great muscle tone and almost not fat. But in swimming she is a distance one (doesn't compete but does train and swim in the Ironnman). I compete in distance and do not have the muscle tone my sister does. I don't bike and run like she does but I do lift weights. In fact for 3 weeks I was out of swimming due to an ankle sprain and all I did was lift weights and "swim" using stretch cords. Does that help at all?

mrubacky
June 12th, 2011, 11:17 AM
I was more of a stick in High school but when I swam in college I look pretty close to Phelps. I took wieght lifting much more seriously in college than I did when I swam in high school.

I started swimming again about a year ago and about a week before spring nationals one of my co-workers said that I didn't look like a swimmer and another correct him saying that I didn't 6 months ago but I do now. Honestly I don't think I'm anywhere close to what I looked like in college, but my upper body is much more defined than my lower body.

My wieght program is the basic wieght training although lately I've been working in new dry land stuff I've read in a book that I recently gotten off of Amazon. Since I've got no desire to swim long course, I've been using this time as off-season and doing more running and cycling than swimming lately.

I know this doesn't answer your question. My guess would be genitics since my son (teenager now) has the exact same build I had in High School.

__steve__
June 12th, 2011, 11:58 AM
Some open water swimmers are built like line backers, Karl Malone was built like a body builder but his vertical jump was less than one foot. You can't categorize physiques with activities, you can only generalize, evryone's different.

pwolf66
June 12th, 2011, 12:43 PM
Two people, same relative build and metabolism. One does a standard weight routine as discussed above. The other does the exact same routine, but alternates workout days with sprinting in each of the strokes (say 2 per workout). Will both build in the same way?

That's it.

Going further to assume that genetic predispositions are identical also then the answer is:


NO, they will not have identical builds.

I'm not sure if you understand the underlying biology here but the most basic fact is that the human body is a marvel at adapting to physical stressors.

So for the sake of your question.

Situation: 2 human beings with identical biological, metabolic and physiological characteristics. Expose each body to different physical stressors, one to a purely weight based routine, the other to the same routine and a sprint based swimming routine.

Result: Assuming that physical breakdown doesn't occur and that both are eating the exact same things at exactly the same time in exactly the same way and getting the same level of rest and doing all the exact same activities, etc...etc...etc..(notice how EVERYTHING has to be the same?)

The 2nd individual will show greater adaptation for longer, denser muscle development due to the physiological stressors due to swimming and a slightly lower body fat percentage. Will the differences be great? More than likely not but they should be visible and measurable.

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 01:43 PM
Thanks guys, this is all very useful information! To now take it one step further (and this may be difficult), any ideas on a useful ratio of water time to weight time, and what to *do* in the water? I know this is trying to select out for a minor side benefit of your sport, so maybe it's impossible, but you've been so helpful thus far, figured I'd give it a shot.

To recap, my current approach is simple 1:1 weight day/water day alternation, and on water days I'm just going for all out sprints for maximum distance in two of the four strokes, looking to increase distance each time, ala killer sets in weights.

Your input is very much appreciated!

pwolf66
June 12th, 2011, 02:00 PM
I wish I really understood what you are trying to accomplish rather than just asking hypothetical questions.

While you may not like the 'tone' of Jazz Hands' posts, he does know what he is talking about when it comes to weight training, muscle hypertrophy and sprinting.

Jazz Hands
June 12th, 2011, 02:08 PM
Thanks guys, this is all very useful information! To now take it one step further (and this may be difficult), any ideas on a useful ratio of water time to weight time, and what to *do* in the water? I know this is trying to select out for a minor side benefit of your sport, so maybe it's impossible, but you've been so helpful thus far, figured I'd give it a shot.

To recap, my current approach is simple 1:1 weight day/water day alternation, and on water days I'm just going for all out sprints for maximum distance in two of the four strokes, looking to increase distance each time, ala killer sets in weights.

Your input is very much appreciated!

I don't think you read what Wolf wrote.

He said, with emphasis, all other factors equal you will see the following differences. But all other factors are not equal. Like, food. A lot of swimmers who also lift weights find that pool time makes them hungrier and/or makes them slightly fatter (some experience the opposite effect).

Also, notice how one of the people in Paul's hypothetical is doing half as much stuff. There are a ton of things this person could be doing with the extra time. If you want to be lean, running might be better use of your time than swimming, from what a lot of people say. Then again, that might not work for you individually.

I think you have come here with some stupid idea about how swimming is totally the key to getting the body of your dreams. It's actually going to have a marginal effect compared to targeted strength training and diet. You say you've been lifting weights super hard since your last pointless thread, but you posted the exact same photo of what you look like. So where's your progress? How much stronger are you now than you were then? What's your plan? Let me guess: nowhere, not at all, and "I dunno, but Jazz Hands is mean, so he must be wrong."

Jazz Hands
June 12th, 2011, 02:21 PM
Here's some proof that swimming and lifting together do not necessarily make you look like Michael Phelps.

I've been swimming competitively for 18 years, and lifting weights for 5 years. Here's a picture of me: http://i.imgur.com/uITwD.jpg

(I'm on the right.)

Oh god! What has happened to my body? Do you realize that my head used to be normal-shaped?

pwolf66
June 12th, 2011, 02:22 PM
http://image.exercisesfacts.info/images/weightliftingworkouts.net/wp-content/uploads/mvbthumbs/img_793_big-back-workout-and-lat-workout-training-back-lat-pulldown-train-lats.jpg

And is exactly the sort of build I said I'm not going for. What the target pics above show are a large chest and upper back, but relatively modest traps, bis, tris, lats, etc.


Sigh,

Nothing like taking a picture, stating a fact about that picture without including the context.

That is a classic bodybuilding pose that is intended to emphasize the lattisimus development by maximal engagement of the muscle group to create that 'fan' while also drawing the judges eyes to the flexibility and development of the legs.

The reason the upper back and shoulders appear to be minimized is a function of the pose. Next time you are in front of a mirror, try and maximize the appearance of your lats and upper back at the same time in a position like this.

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 02:36 PM
I wish I really understood what you are trying to accomplish rather than just asking hypothetical questions.

While you may not like the 'tone' of Jazz Hands' posts, he does know what he is talking about when it comes to weight training, muscle hypertrophy and sprinting.

The problem is Jazz Hands is too busy with put downs and s*** talking to be a constructive addition to this conversation. That's okay though, I plan to keep posting and dealing with the friendlies on here while he can scream as loud as he wants. That's the beauty of a forum, our access is equal. Speaking of which, I find it funny looking through his old posts that he seems to get into it with a lot of people. Anatagonism runs deep with this one, I guess.

Here's what I was asking, perhaps it should be directed to those like Slug who have seen the differences first hand:

If we assume differences are seen (witness, again, his experience), I was looking for even further refinement on what is most efficient. For example, say someone like him noticed that, during weights and swimming, one season he swam only for long distance freestyle and saw one result. The next, he focused on short distance sprinting, say mostly in butterfly, and saw a different set of results. Both while also doing weights.

Such a person could tell me "hey, I see your goals, I got closest to that doing the latter (or the former)". This would save me some experimenting on my own.

That's it.

We've already established that at least some on here have seen a complementary effect of both at once, now I'm just trying to determine if they saw differences within that, based on the type of swimming they did.

Thrashing Slug
June 12th, 2011, 02:37 PM
Putting aside the jokes and ad hominem attacks for a second (and by all means please continue with those because they're @$#%ing hilarious), let me reiterate what I think is the core answer to the OP's question.

You're not swimming enough.

Try doing a 2:1 ratio of swimming to lifting, and don't just jump in and swim hard until you get tired. Do real Masters-style workouts with intervals and a sense of purpose. Actually try to get faster and build endurance in swimming. Most of us are swimming 2500+ yards, 3-5 times per week, with varying intensities. Elites swim a whole hell of a lot more than that.

Do this for 6 months and see what happens. Obviously do it in combination with a good diet, careful attention to technique, rotator cuff exercises, etc. so that you avoid injury.

To put it another way, instead of focusing on a superficial byproduct of swim training, e.g. body type, approach swimming as a skill to be mastered. If you chase Mastery instead of aesthetics you will start to see everything else fall into place naturally.

Jazz Hands
June 12th, 2011, 02:49 PM
The problem is Jazz Hands is too busy with put downs and **** talking to be a constructive addition to this conversation. That's okay though, I plan to keep posting and dealing with the friendlies on here while he can scream as loud as he wants. That's the beauty of a forum, our access is equal.

Actually "Bro" (if that is your real name), I answered your question, and only started making fun of you when you responded with the zombie bodybuilder lat pose nonsense. That particular post was so blindingly stupid that it caused me to experience an episode of stupidity-induced hysteria. I am deeply sorry.

If you want to go point by point:

1. I said that swimmers, especially from swim training in childhood (!!!) might tend to have preferential muscle growth in major swimming muscles, the most majorest of which is the lats.

2. I further said that bodybuilders and most gym bros focus on a different set of muscles. There are very few gym bros who aren't focusing on biceps curls and tons of bench press variations. Anterior deltoid and biceps development in abundance. Meanwhile, the prevailing aesthetic of competitive bodybuilding values certain peripheral muscles. A "balanced" physique in bodybuilding required some freaking large upper arms, etc. But what's balanced for bodybuilding is not necessarily the same as what's balanced for swimming.

3. I said that if you focus on the large muscles of the torso, such as the lats, in your weight training, instead of having an "arm day" as most bodybuilders do, you will develop in more swimmerly proportions.

4. You responded by showing a picture of a competitive bodybuilder (!?!?!) to make the point that... lats... are... bad? I don't even know anymore. I think maybe you're freaked out by the sheer size of the bodybuilder? Don't worry: that will not happen to you unless you start using steroids. Also, as Paul pointed out, that pose is a special technique to over-emphasize the lats. A person of fairly normal size with good overall muscle development and strong lats looks like what you seeeeem to want to look like.

And I'll repeat this: I have given a training program to a non-swimmer, which training program included no swimming, and the guy developed a swimmery V shape from doing dips, chins, and deadlifts. And no swimming. I love swimming, and I do think it's great for many aspects of overall physical fitness if you enjoy it, but it's not necessary for your still-somewhat-blurry goals.

Thrashing Slug
June 12th, 2011, 02:49 PM
For example, say someone like him noticed that, during weights and swimming, one season he swam only for long distance freestyle and saw one result. The next, he focused on short distance sprinting, say mostly in butterfly, and saw a different set of results. Both while also doing weights.

Good point. I've noticed a difference between freestyle-only and IM-inclusive training. Breaststroke and butterfly both have a noticeable effect on muscle development. More importantly, by swimming all 4 strokes you become a more complete and accomplished swimmer, and you decrease the likelihood of overuse injuries since you're not spending all of your time on the same repetitive motions. Also, it makes swimming more enjoyable and gives you more options if you ever decide to compete, or if you need to use swimming in a survival situation.

pwolf66
June 12th, 2011, 02:56 PM
If we assume differences are seen (witness, again, his experience), I was looking for even further refinement on what is most efficient.

Such a person could tell me "hey, I see your goals, I got closest to that doing the latter (or the former)".

What is most efficient for what??? You haven't stated a single concrete measurable goal in this whole thread.

You have said that you use weights and swimming for 'fitness', 'fitness' is a great thing but how do you measure it? How do you know when you have acheived 'fitness'?

Might want to Google 'SMART goals' to understand how to establish and measure goals.

Goals would be - add 5% more muscle mass, lose 10 pounds while maintaining current lean body mass, swim 100 yards in 1:00, swim 10000 yards per week. Deadlift 500 pounds, etc.

Those I can help with. But a goal of 'fitness'? Not sure I can direct you other than exercise every day, get plenty of sleep, eat right, etc.

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 03:07 PM
And I'll repeat this: I have given a training program to a non-swimmer, which training program included no swimming, and the guy developed a swimmery V shape from doing dips, chins, and deadlifts. And no swimming. I love swimming, and I do think it's great for many aspects of overall physical fitness if you enjoy it, but it's not necessary for your still-somewhat-blurry goals.

Jazz Hands, do you happen to have any shots of this guy? Maybe before/after? I'm willing to listen, but I'm curious to see the results. Your notion and mine might be a little different.

Jazz Hands
June 12th, 2011, 03:18 PM
Jazz Hands, do you happen to have any shots of this guy? Maybe before/after? I'm willing to listen, but I'm curious to see the results. Your notion and mine might be a little different.

No I don't. And you're so missing the point it hurts. The guy is not you. It's just an anecdote, which is the only type of evidence you're ever going to get on this subject of bafflingly intense interest to you. To believe that strength training always makes people look ugly and bulky, and that swimming is magic fairy dust that bestows beauty and proportion, you would have to have zero (0) knowledge about how muscle hypertrophy actually works.

The way a sensible person would deal with this is to start building muscle with a simple full-body routine. Then, if you can identify some muscles that you think are overdeveloped, figure out where they are being trained in your routine, and dial it back. Unfortunately, you're not a sensible person.

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 03:41 PM
Wow are you a hypocrite. First you blast me for going about my goals the wrong way, claiming you know the way, because you were able to get some guy from X to Y using your own advice.

When I ask you to show me the guy who supposedly went from X to Y using your system, I'm yet again an idiot and going about things wrong, and your example is "merely an anecdote".

So which is it? You know the way, or your way only produces anecdotes?

Let me put this out there for all to hear (though at this point it seems like there are maybe 4 people total in this conversation).

Show me, with resultant pics, a routine that increases one's upper back, shoulders, and chest without simultaneously building oversized tris, bis, neck, and traps. That is the goal. pwolf, you want measurable action? 2-4" more on the chest, similar amount on shoulders (circumference), without serious gain to arm or neck measurements.

The pics I've provided were the target goal, which show exactly this.

Give me a routine, I don't care if the only water it involves is the sweat produced.

But give me something with evidence. Pics. Maybe something you did, maybe something you recommended to someone else. Don't dismiss your experience as "anecdotal" when it's inconvenient and you're pressed for proof.

To date, the only consistently built people I've seen along these lines have been swimmers. That's why I'm here. If I'm 100% wrong and this is not the way, show me the right way and back it up with something for me to see.

Jazz Hands
June 12th, 2011, 03:46 PM
Give me a routine

Why? There is so much information on the internet about how to gain muscle. You could be using that information right now to reach your goal, whatever the hell it actually is. Afraid deadlifts are going to make your neck too big? Start wearing turtlenecks.

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 03:47 PM
Why? There is so much information on the internet about how to gain muscle. You could be using that information right now to reach you goal, whatever the hell it actually is. Afraid deadlifts are going to make your neck too big? Start wearing turtlenecks.

Is he always like this? Any of you know his parents?

Jazz Hands
June 12th, 2011, 03:51 PM
pwolf, you want measurable action? 2-4" more on the chest, similar amount on shoulders (circumference), without serious gain to arm or neck measurements.

Wait, you want to increase your shoulder and chest measurements by several inches without increasing your arms or neck at all?

YouTube - ‪I'm sorry, Dave‬‏

Speedo
June 12th, 2011, 03:59 PM
Wait, you want to increase your shoulder and chest measurements by several inches without increasing your arms or neck at all?

YouTube - ‪I'm sorry, Dave‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qnd-hdmgfk):rofl:

pwolf66
June 12th, 2011, 04:03 PM
To date, the only consistently built people I've seen along these lines have been swimmers. That's why I'm here. If I'm 100% wrong and this is not the way, show me the right way and back it up with something for me to see.

Is it possible that is because all the other athletes wear clothing?

But sure, I'll bite.

You want to increase the size of your Pectoralis Major and Minor muscles without increasing the size of your Biceps, Triceps, Lats, correct?

You also want to increase your Deltiods in the same manner?

Well, that is going to be a tad challenging because to target those 2 muscle groups requires the active involvement of all the other groups you are trying to keep the same. From the time I started lifting, thru my competitive powerlifting days to now, I have NEVER understood this reasoning. Any resistance movement involving major muscle groups must involve the smaller muscle groups also. Plus making a primary muscle group larger/stronger without increasing the strength/size of the secondary groups is asking for trouble such as tendon tears, muscle tears, joint pain, etc. Having a great chest but poorly developed traps, lats, rhomboids, etc is sad.

But to increase those muscle groups will involve a 6-8 week rotation of programs designed to spur hypertrophy. The body likes to make as little physiological changes as possible so doing the same thing, over and over again, in the same way at the same speed will give you gains in the first 2-3 weeks but then the body adapts and you have to change up the routine.

No more than 9-12 total sets per body part. Change up angles of attack (do not decline bench that is a waste of time) and exercise types. Target weights that you can lift with good form 4-6 times per set. Take 1 minute between sets. 2-3 exercises per body part.

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 06:39 PM
Alright all, think I got, for better or worse, everything I need out of this thread.

Thanks to everyone, except of course the man-child who's probably still longing for father's love (or trying to forget getting too much of it, beats me).

Good luck and stay fast people!

funkyfish
June 12th, 2011, 07:31 PM
Show me, with resultant pics, a routine that increases one's upper back, shoulders, and chest without simultaneously building oversized tris, bis, neck, and traps. That is the goal. pwolf, you want measurable action? 2-4" more on the chest, similar amount on shoulders (circumference), without serious gain to arm or neck measurements
Kind of a curious thread. My :2cents::
Don't want to be discouraging, but if you don't have the genetics to achieve the "shape" you're after, you're probably not going to achieve it, no matter what type of routine you do or what muscles you focus on or neglect. Peoples body types will respond to stimulus, but outside of increasing the size of the muscle (and sometimes this doesn't even occur), you will not change the shape of that muscle.

Some bodybuilders have quads that are connected very low on the upper leg, it looks like their thighs hang over their knees, some have really peaked biceps that are the envy of others, and some have super-thick traps that almost look like a second pair of shoulders. Whether you're blessed (or cursed) with these genes, you get what you get, and you can possibly modify the size, but not the shape.

I spent roughly 20yrs trying to get the ideal bodybuilder look but found that I did not have all the right genetic cards in my favor. I had/have very large upper/lower legs, fairly wide lats, and decent pec/shoulders. The main thing I felt I was missing was overall thickness in the back, very little trap and forearm development, and a frustrating lack of bicep peak. I'd train my traps with shrugs (750lbs for reps at my peak) and could get my upper arms to almost 19", but never had the sizable traps I wanted or the bicep peak. This was good enough for many 2nd place trophies, but I'd always get beat in competitions by the person who had more of the "right genes."

The thing about elite swimmers is that most of these people started out with the right genetics, and though years of focused training their bodies have responded to adapt in a particular way. I'm pretty sure that even if I could follow the same swimming/weight/diet routine that these elite swimmers follow, I would still not wind up looking like them because my genetics are not the same (not tall enough, slender enough, proportions are different, etc…) You will probably find that you can achieve part of the look you're going for, but maybe not all of it. Regardless, good luck in your quest.
:banana:

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 07:36 PM
Thank you funkyfish. Interesting and informative.

Thrashing Slug
June 12th, 2011, 10:11 PM
I'd train my traps with shrugs (750lbs for reps at my peak) ...

Wow, that's crazy. I cannot conceive of a 750lb deadlift, let alone shrugs.

On a side note, what are trapezius muscles good for, functionally speaking? I know they help with a deadlift, but what else?

Shrugging your way out of a rear naked choke?

Cracking coconuts between shoulder and head?

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 10:14 PM
Wow, that's crazy. I cannot conceive of a 750lb deadlift, let alone shrugs.

On a side note, what are trapezius muscles good for, functionally speaking? I know they help with a deadlift, but what else?

Shrugging your way out of a rear naked choke?

Cracking coconuts between shoulder and head?

Slug, you're quickly becoming my favorite guy on here :)

pendaluft
June 12th, 2011, 10:16 PM
Wow, that's crazy. I cannot conceive of a 750lb deadlift, let alone shrugs.

On a side note, what are trapezius muscles good for, functionally speaking? I know they help with a deadlift, but what else?

Shrugging your way out of a rear naked choke?

Cracking coconuts between shoulder and head?

Carrying suitcases from one airport terminal to another

Carrying Jugs for the water cooler from one side of the office building to the other

Transporting lazy children up the hill to your house when they sit down in the street

funkyfish
June 12th, 2011, 10:28 PM
On a side note, what are trapezius muscles good for, functionally speaking? I know they help with a deadlift, but what else?

Shrugging your way out of a rear naked choke?

Cracking coconuts between shoulder and head?


Carrying suitcases from one airport terminal to another

Carrying Jugs for the water cooler from one side of the office building to the other

Transporting lazy children up the hill to your house when they sit down in the street

:D My guess is all of the above, plus being able to pull the cord to get Atlas's lawn mower started.

ElaineK
June 12th, 2011, 11:06 PM
http://www.tierraunica.com/.a/6a00e551962103883300e55419aa128834-800wi

Compare that though to today's champions:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z2pvpfssa5w/THHEjg6e1eI/AAAAAAAANc4/xzxJXrys1y0/s1600/ryanlochte.jpg

http://www.popstarsplus.com/images/MichaelPhelpsPicture.jpg


Thanks, Bro, you have just made my day ! :D

BigBrother
June 12th, 2011, 11:25 PM
Thanks, Bro, you have just made my day ! :D

...And people question my motivation for this pursuit ;) ;) ;)

You're welcome!

arthur
June 13th, 2011, 01:15 PM
The difference between a high level swimmer and body builder who both do deadlifts, squats, bench press etc. for low reps and ~5 sets is mostly diet (and a bit genetics). The body builder is eating excess calories and a high protein diet to gain bulk muscle and fat. They then burn off the fat before competition. The swimmer is eating less protein and and balanced calorie diet so they gain strength without much bulk. The swimmer might be eating the same or more calories as the bodybuilder but burns 2000+ calories every day in the pool. The body builder is not doing any cardio when they are trying to gain mass.