PDA

View Full Version : How to pass or be passed in workout



Michael Heather
June 23rd, 2011, 01:58 AM
Sounds simple, right? It is, if everyone cooperates.

When overtaking someone in your lane (presuming freestyle is being swum), tap their foot on one stroke so they will not be surprised to see you so close behind. Wait for a couple of strokes to find out what they intend to do and pass accordingly.

Tap the foot. That is the signal that you want to pass. Surprise is unwelcome in most practice lanes.

When swimming in a lane with others and someone taps your foot, that means they want to pass. It doesn't mean they want to race. It doesn't mean they want to talk or fight. They are overtaking you in a swim and want to continue their pace with the least amount of consternation on anyone's part. If your foot gets tapped, there are exactly two appropriate ways to respond. #1- if you are swimming long course and have been tapped in the middle of the pool, slow down a little and move to the right, hugging the lane line. The passing party will be by in a moment and you will be able to continue apace, both satisfied that no meaningful time was lost in the exchange. #2 - if you are in short course lanes, swim to the end of the lane as far right as possible, grabbing the wall for an open turn. This will give the overtaking swimmer plenty of room to pass on the left and you will be able to draft off of him for a little while.

When your foot is tapped, it is not a signal to speed up. There are no swimmers alive that have never been passed in workout. I occasionally will be passed and do the passing in the same workout. It is not a point of honor, it is workout. It is not a signal to stop. All that accomplishes is to mess up both swimmers' workouts and clog up a lane for other swimmers.

You are not alone in the lane, don't act like you are. If your lane mates all want you to go first, don't waste time being demure, even if you know they are faster. Just go and make them pass you a few times and the lane order will even out. Talk to one another (only when the coach is not talking) to decide how passing will be done and everyone is happy.

Rykno
June 23rd, 2011, 07:43 AM
so what happens when you get the accidental tough? say the person behind you prefers to swim on your feet and draft the whole practice and when you slow down so do they, when you stop on the side and let them go, they say no that's ok you go first.

I get passed and pass people all the time, I don't expect them to adapted to me. most lanes are 2m wide, in a long course or shortcourse pool there is room to pass in the middle, this just demands that everyone is paying attention all the time. passing in the middle not only effects the person being passed, but the person coming in the oppsite direction.

what you are describing sounds more like a lap lane topic. since we are 12-20 people at my practices with training times for 100m fr going from 1:12 to 1:47 we do our best to make the lanes even, as well as even paced. if we have too many and we can't get three evenly paced lanes we don't swim anything over 100m preventing the need to pass anyone.

swimshark
June 23rd, 2011, 08:05 AM
Duplicate.

swimshark
June 23rd, 2011, 08:06 AM
I swim with teenagers. Often I am the slowest in the practice. If I catch then and tap their feet I expect them to start working harder in practice. :D If after the 2nd tap they haven't sped up, then I will pass them. With my bad ankle I have a fear of being tapped. It can hurt me. So I'm keenly aware of where the swimmers are in my lane (long course we have about 9 per lane). I step aside at the end of the lane or will go under and let them swim over me to avoid being tapped.

Not quite normal but it works.

qbrain
June 23rd, 2011, 09:14 AM
What is this nonsense Michael? Tapping feet and courteous passing behavior? That is not how it is done.

If someone made the mistake of swimming slow in your lane, you, without any kind of warning, grab their ankle and zing them right back into the swimmer behind you. Simple, effective and everyone is happy.

Is this what they mean by The Rite of Passage?

aquageek
June 23rd, 2011, 09:59 AM
Usually the slower swimmer holds up at the next wall and allows the pass. I've not heard of this toe tapping. I have found kids are reluctant to allow the pass, which is why they get barked at.

knelson
June 23rd, 2011, 10:07 AM
If everything works right no one should need to stop at the wall or even do an open turn. The swimmer being passed just needs to maintain their pace, stay as far right as possible, and avoid cutting off the passing swimmer at the wall.

gdanner
June 23rd, 2011, 10:08 AM
Sounds simple, right? It is, if everyone cooperates.

When overtaking someone in your lane (presuming freestyle is being swum), tap their foot on one stroke so they will not be surprised to see you so close behind. Wait for a couple of strokes to find out what they intend to do and pass accordingly.

Tap the foot. That is the signal that you want to pass. Surprise is unwelcome in most practice lanes.

When swimming in a lane with others and someone taps your foot, that means they want to pass. It doesn't mean they want to race. It doesn't mean they want to talk or fight.

When your foot is tapped, it is not a signal to speed up. There are no swimmers alive that have never been passed in workout...

You are not alone in the lane, don't act like you are...

Some people severely lack an understanding of passing etiquette, so I'm happy to see this thread. It's definitely been over 5 years since I flipped out on someone at a pool for repeated offenses of common sense. In my advanced age, I decided it's better if the age groupers don't think I'm crazy for how serious I take this sport. So I don't get noticeably angry any more, but I will politely teach kids my version of proper passing etiquette. I will note differences between lapping passing and non-lapping passing etiquette.

Lapping passing:

I strongly disagree with you on the toe touching. If you have to touch someone's toes, you've already had to decrease your pace. It's going to take time for the slower person to adjust and if they're close to a wall, they have to make a split second decision. On top of that, it's terribly annoying to have your feet touched and as rykno pointed out, that can be accidental.

My take: Swimmers should be aware of their surroundings at all times. If you're training regularly with the same group, you should be well aware of how fast everyone is and the likelihood that you will get passed. If the set is comprised of 200's+, it's common sense that the leader might be coming up on you. Unless you're blind or doing all backstroke, you can see people progressively getting closer, regardless of whether or not you know the person. Slower swimmers need to be prepared to make an adjustment far before you get on their feet: moving as far right as possible. The absolute worst thing they can do is turn right in front of you in the middle of the lane if you don't pass in time. In a perfect situation: the lane is not crowded and the person getting passed can actually move into the far left of the lane instead of the far right. This allows them to continue at full speed through the turn and gives the passer more time to complete the pass without slowing down either. In crowded situations, I hope the slower swimmer will stop at the wall, but I understand if they want to continue. They must accept any contact that will happen at that point though.

Non-lapping passing:

Still disagree with the toe touching. If you wanted to lead the lane that badly, you should have led from the start of the set. Either wait until you reach the wall at the completion of the distance to request moving up in the lane, or pass the swimmer while causing as little contact as possible. Do not cut off the lane leader any at point. Respect that they've been giving you a draft and give some extra leeway as a result.

Passing when swimming non-free gets pretty complicated. Everyone has to accept there's a greater chance for contact in those situations. If I'm getting passed, I keep doing my stroke, but try to hug the lane-line best I can. If I am doing the passing, I might switch to free to try and get the pass done quicker.

Michael Heather
June 23rd, 2011, 10:12 AM
so what happens when you get the accidental tough? say the person behind you prefers to swim on your feet and draft the whole practice and when you slow down so do they, when you stop on the side and let them go, they say no that's ok you go first.

Then don't stop, and quit worrying about the drag queen. He is only being lazy, and it helps you to pull the extra weight. You may not like it, but he is helping you, not him. It is amazing how confused this type of swimmer seem at a swim meet (on the rare occasion they attend one) when their time is so much slower than yours.


if we have too many and we can't get three evenly paced lanes we don't swim anything over 100m preventing the need to pass anyone.

Problem solved.

Michael Heather
June 23rd, 2011, 10:16 AM
With my bad ankle I have a fear of being tapped.

It is a tap, usually on the toe, usually with the fingertips. Not a closed fist punch. Those are for the locker room.

knelson
June 23rd, 2011, 10:17 AM
and it helps you to pull the extra weight.

Maybe you're kidding, but just wanted to point out that someone drafting doesn't affect the speed of the lead swimmer. If anything it makes them faster--but probably it doesn't affect them at all (other than the annoyance).

aquageek
June 23rd, 2011, 10:19 AM
If everything works right no one should need to stop at the wall or even do an open turn. The swimmer being passed just needs to maintain their pace, stay as far right as possible, and avoid cutting off the passing swimmer at the wall.

I think this is generally true but sometimes stuff happens. Like, for instance, the guys that usually flash and burn out at 45 minutes into practice but, for whatever reason, they burn out at 30 minutes one day and haven't rightly assumed their position at the end. Or, the prideful swimmer, who can't handle a bad day and won't give up the position.

We had 2/4 in my lane today blow up on a hard set and resort to wall hanging fortunately. Passing on a hard set mid-lane is the worst.

I swim with a courteous group and it is rarely an issue. People know when to slide over.

knelson
June 23rd, 2011, 10:27 AM
Passing on a hard set mid-lane is the worst.

I swim with a courteous group and it is rarely an issue. People know when to slide over.

I agree and I really think in masters the courteous thing to do is just stop at the wall if you're going to be passed. We're not training for the Olympics, after all. Of course the time when you really are forced to pass is during generic "lap swim" times when you may be swimming at twice the speed of your lane mate(s). Unfortunately these swimmers also tend to know the least about lane etiquette.

Michael Heather
June 23rd, 2011, 10:29 AM
I strongly disagree with you on the toe touching. If you have to touch someone's toes, you've already had to decrease your pace.

The toe touch presumes that the overtaken person is not aware that he is being lapped/passed.

Ideally, everyone knows where everyone else is in the lane. I do. They should also know the relative speeds of their lane mates. But that is not a common case, just like the number of people who can read a pace clock and leave on the correct interval.

Another item that I left out that I was reminded of this morning: passing by turning around in the middle of the pool is CHEATING. A former coach of mine looked dimly on this practice and solved it rapidly: the first time someone was caught turning in the middle, practice was stopped while everyone watched the offender swim a 200 fly. The second time it happened, the offender swam a 500 fly and the rest of the team swam 200 fly. There was never a third time.

Michael Heather
June 23rd, 2011, 10:38 AM
Maybe you're kidding, but just wanted to point out that someone drafting doesn't affect the speed of the lead swimmer. If anything it makes them faster--but probably it doesn't affect them at all (other than the annoyance).

It was kind of kidding, but the point is that being annoyed is not helping you in practice. Taking the position that they are helping you is a positive step for you and takes the power away from Mr. Drag.

I do not know if there is any hydrodynamic evidence that you would be pulling his weight, but why not think that way? It is a training technique for which you don't have to pay or even think about.

I used to have people drag on me a lot (when I was much younger). It bugged me for a wile, then I found ways to play with them. It made my legs much stronger and better yet, it made them annoyed.

qbrain
June 23rd, 2011, 10:39 AM
Another item that I left out that I was reminded of this morning: passing by turning around in the middle of the pool is CHEATING. A former coach of mine looked dimly on this practice and solved it rapidly: the first time someone was caught turning in the middle, practice was stopped while everyone watched the offender swim a 200 fly. The second time it happened, the offender swam a 500 fly and the rest of the team swam 200 fly. There was never a third time.

Luckily, as masters swimmers, we don't have to put up with such bull:censor: now.

swimshark
June 23rd, 2011, 10:42 AM
It is a tap, usually on the toe, usually with the fingertips. Not a closed fist punch. Those are for the locker room.

If someone taps too hard and pushes my foot out of its position it can severely hurt me. I'm not even allowed to jump in the pool now for what it does to my foot.

knelson
June 23rd, 2011, 10:43 AM
I do not know if there is any hydrodynamic evidence that you would be pulling his weight

There isn't. The reason I said it could actually be an advantage is the trailing swimmer might act as a fairing which reduces the size of your wake. I really can't imagine this accounts for much, but having someone on your feet definitely won't hurt you, either.

aquageek
June 23rd, 2011, 10:48 AM
... passing by turning around in the middle of the pool is CHEATING.

Oh, lighten up. If you want to turn in the middle of the pool, who really cares? There's nothing wrong with a mid pool turn at all. In fact, I'd opt for a mid pool turn over toe tapping the guy/gal in front of me. No one likes a toe tapper.

knelson
June 23rd, 2011, 10:59 AM
It's only cheating if you count that missed yardage in your Go The Distance total. :D

Actually I'm sort of obsessed about entering correct totals in GTD. It drives me nuts when I'm at a swim meet or do an open water swim and have to estimate how far I swam. What if I'm off by 100 yards or meters? Oh the humanity!

lefty
June 23rd, 2011, 11:02 AM
Ugg if someone tapped me on the foot it would really piss me off. I guess it would be a sign of the person being courteous, but still it would really annoy me.

It is all about awareness. If someone is probably going to pass you, let them do it. If the lane is crowded STOP doing breaststroke; It is inconsiderate. Don't push off in front of someone going much faster than you. If someone waits on the wall for you because they see you are going faster, continue going fast even if that disrupts your intended set (with in reason of course. I might suggest that if you are doing 25 sprints, you do 20 sprints and cruise in the last 5 yards so the people see that you are slowing down). If somoene is completely unaware, inconsiderate or whatever the case may be, pass them by cutting the lap. Finally, if somone is being inconsiderate, it doesn't hurt to tell them nicely. Typically they have no idea.

aztimm
June 23rd, 2011, 11:23 AM
If someone taps too hard and pushes my foot out of its position it can severely hurt me. I'm not even allowed to jump in the pool now for what it does to my foot.

I agree. I severely sprained my ankle 2 years ago, and it is still extremely sensitive to anything unusual. And yes, even what some may consider a slight tap can inflame a sprained ankle.
I can't even remember the last time I had to deal with tapping, but some people will do an ankle touch to stop me (if warm-up is over, if I'm in a set and the coach wants me, etc)...and that is far worse.


As for passing, if you are circle swimming during workout, and you're not blind, I think most people have an idea how close they are to those in front and those behind. If the person behind me is too close, I'll pull into a corner at the next wall and let them pass. If I'm too close to the person in front, I'll either slow down, or at the next break ask if I can go ahead.

Thrashing Slug
June 23rd, 2011, 11:53 AM
Oh, lighten up. If you want to turn in the middle of the pool, who really cares? There's nothing wrong with a mid pool turn at all. In fact, I'd opt for a mid pool turn over toe tapping the guy/gal in front of me. No one likes a toe tapper.

Agreed. I've done the early turn many times to avoid disrupting the person in front of me, who is obviously an inexperienced swimmer since I am passing them.

This thread reminds me of the good old days when my Masters group had enough people to actually require passing. Ah, the days of swimming 3 or 4 to a lane, drafting, being drafted.. <sniffle>. Now I'm lucky if anyone shows up. Last week I was the only one there at 5:30 AM.

swimshark
June 23rd, 2011, 12:27 PM
I agree. I severely sprained my ankle 2 years ago, and it is still extremely sensitive to anything unusual. And yes, even what some may consider a slight tap can inflame a sprained ankle.
I can't even remember the last time I had to deal with tapping, but some people will do an ankle touch to stop me (if warm-up is over, if I'm in a set and the coach wants me, etc)...and that is far worse.


I'm glad I'm not the only one with sensitive ankles. Right now with the high ankle sprain still swelling most days, any touching is rough on me.

nkfrench
June 23rd, 2011, 03:35 PM
I can't count the number of times I have been passed by novices who have speed BUT no endurance, no sense of pace, and no sense of lane etiquette.

It's frustrating to have them draft, thrash in my feet, so I slow and let them pass only to have them switch to wide breaststroke or stop at the wall and box me in. Typically without the draft they aren't fast enough to swim in front.

About the toe taps - it's a little tough doing backstroke to know exactly how close you are behind people, especially on pull sets. Those paddles hurt. Sorry! I do tilt my head back to "sight" from time to time.

Midas
June 23rd, 2011, 04:47 PM
I agree that toe taps are only necessary if the lead swimmer is either clueless or stubborn. I personally haven't had to do much toe tapping as a Master, mostly because everybody in my lane is usually faster than me, but also because people are generally aware of the other swimmers in their lane and automatically move to let the faster swimmer pass.

I do on occasion turn in the middle when it's a warmup set or something like that too. I don't want to mess up a slower swimmer's flow if I don't have to.

But as a kid it was a whole different story. Nobody wanted to let you pass. I'm pretty sure I was as bad as anybody on this. We used to have to grab ankles and pull people backwards to get around them! :D

orca1946
June 23rd, 2011, 06:50 PM
!. If you are on a team & swim with the same swimmers - the wall stop is a great way to avoid mid-lane crashes. OR as I some times do - the mid lap flip to be forward of 1 - 3 swimmers on long sets. :bolt:

2. Open lap swim - try to talk :blah::blah: to they 1st about what you want to do or don't expect them to conform to new rules they do not know ! :worms:

quicksilver
June 23rd, 2011, 09:18 PM
If someone made the mistake of swimming slow in your lane, you, without any kind of warning, grab their ankle and zing them right back into the swimmer behind you. Simple, effective and everyone is happy.



This was actually encouraged when were age groupers (and by our coach no less).

We had an Olympic distance swimmer on the team who did 100's on the minute interval. And he'd sail into the wall at :54 pace or better. If the last guy in his lane wasn't out of his way after the initial tap...down they went.

ElaineK
June 23rd, 2011, 09:38 PM
This was actually encouraged when were age groupers (and by our coach no less).

We had an Olympic distance swimmer on the team who did 100's on the minute interval. And he'd sail into the wall at :54 pace or better. If the last guy in his lane wasn't out of his way after the initial tap...down they went.

:afraid:Brutal! This entire thread makes me realize there is at least one benefit of swimming alone and having a lane to myself. :D

jaadams1
June 23rd, 2011, 09:55 PM
If someone made the mistake of swimming slow in your lane, you, without any kind of warning, grab their ankle and zing them right back into the swimmer behind you. Simple, effective and everyone is happy.

I used to do this on occasion passing my buddies in college practices. If I was lucky I made it past them without them returning the favor a second later. :)
The best one is to do this as you are passing them, just as they are entering a flip turn. Makes 'em dead in the water with the head down butt up! :D

I don't think I would do this to any masters swimmers I swim with. But I could make an exception for That Guy.

That Guy
June 23rd, 2011, 11:52 PM
-2 James Adams

crap, wrong thread

jaadams1
June 23rd, 2011, 11:56 PM
-2 James Adams

crap, wrong thread

It's a good thing I can't be in that thread, or I'd probably be out after the following 5 posts.

norascats
June 24th, 2011, 08:56 AM
The correct thing to do in your Go the Distance log would be to enter instead of 3000 yards enter 2999.3. That way your log is accurate.

swimshark
June 24th, 2011, 09:06 AM
This was actually encouraged when were age groupers (and by our coach no less).

We had an Olympic distance swimmer on the team who did 100's on the minute interval. And he'd sail into the wall at :54 pace or better. If the last guy in his lane wasn't out of his way after the initial tap...down they went.

Our coach tells us that if a kid won't get out of the way "run over them". As the only adult in the practice, I have yet to do this. I'm too nice for that. I did have a kid try to pass me on the left while doing a flip turn. I didn't see him until I pushed off right in to him. I ended up with a nasty finger cut and I got him in the groin with my paddles. I don't think he'll ever pass anyone on the left during a flip turn again :)

quicksilver
June 24th, 2011, 11:05 AM
...and I got him in the... with my paddles. I don't think he'll ever pass anyone on the left during a flip turn again :)

As they say, it's not supposed to be a contact sport. But sometimes it does turn into one. And yes thanks to the AAU days...it's always been my understanding that a tap on the foot means get out of the way ...or to stay put on the wall until the passer makes the pass.

It's really the coaches job to group people according to similar ability on longer sets ...which unfortunately doesn't always happen. And this is why lane etiquette is important. I have yet to see the ankle tug and dunk in a masters practice, but you never know.

aquajock
June 24th, 2011, 11:32 AM
If the lane is crowded STOP doing breaststroke; It is inconsiderate.

I personally think its inconsiderate for another swimmer to expect me not to train appropriately for my races just because it's "inconvenient" to pass me.

Redbird Alum
June 24th, 2011, 11:41 AM
In a circle-swim practice, passing anywhere in the lane except at the wall creates a safety issue for the poor swimmers coming the opposite direction, who have no idea why you just crowded their side, and/or knocked the crap out of their arm/elbow/shoulder.

The touch (not significant tap) of the slower lead swimmers toe allows them to stop at the wall (off to the side) and allow as many swimmers to pass as need to. Adjustments to order are then confirmed at the end of the repeat/swim.

knelson
June 24th, 2011, 12:32 PM
The touch (not significant tap)

Is this that easy to accomplish? It's my experience that just tapping a foot isn't always easy. People are kicking, there's bubbles, etc. Sometimes you miss the person's foot altogether, other times you clobber them more than you intended to.

lefty
June 24th, 2011, 01:00 PM
I personally think its inconsiderate for another swimmer to expect me not to train appropriately for my races just because it's "inconvenient" to pass me.

Ease up. If you are kicking people because the lane is too crowded then you need to stop. I doubt you disagree with me about that.

Speedo
June 24th, 2011, 01:49 PM
Ease up. If you are kicking people because the lane is too crowded then you need to stop. I doubt you disagree with me about that.I wouldn't disagree with this, but check the title- it's not about kicking people.

aquajock
June 24th, 2011, 02:01 PM
Ease up. If you are kicking people because the lane is too crowded then you need to stop. I doubt you disagree with me about that.

If I saw someone coming around me, I would do a fly kick or two while they pass, not stop doing breaststroke. Imagine telling a freestyler to change to another stroke? LOL. I can't remember ever kicking anyone (other than the laneline) in practice. I have hit some arms doing fly and free, though...

Celestial
June 24th, 2011, 05:16 PM
What is this nonsense Michael? Tapping feet and courteous passing behavior? That is not how it is done.

If someone made the mistake of swimming slow in your lane, you, without any kind of warning, grab their ankle and zing them right back into the swimmer behind you. Simple, effective and everyone is happy.

Is this what they mean by The Rite of Passage?


I LOVE this!! I have a friend in my masters group (that I rarely get to swim with any more) that we do this to each other - and it started out on a kick set, so you could see the mischievous grin on our faces! Now that I swim with the kids - sometimes I would LOVE to do that - but I'm afraid I'll lose my mojo & then not be able to keep up the pace on the next set!! The USA-S coach spent a good 10 minutes the other morning yelling at the teenagers about this very thing - his point - in a 50m pool, the lanes are generally wide enough for three people abreast for short distances - and sometimes four. Speeding up when someone is going around you is considered bad form, and resting on the wall for everyone to swim past you is too! I make it a point to always apologize to the kids & tell the coach it was my fault, because I didn't realize I was faster than so & so - that makes that particular kid swim even faster!