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View Full Version : Swimming-Brazil's world champ Cielo tests positive, escapes



pwb
July 2nd, 2011, 12:01 PM
I'm not naive enough to believe that PEDs aren't in our sports, but it always sucks when things like this pop up ... http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/02/swimming-brazil-doping-idUSLDE76100420110702.

Say it ain't so, Cesar.

swimcat
July 2nd, 2011, 01:01 PM
why would you take a diaretic? what would the advantage be:dunno:

Lump
July 2nd, 2011, 01:12 PM
why would you take a diaretic? what would the advantage be:dunno:

Doesn't matter. The fact is that there is a list of banned substances. Don't have them in your system, that simple. YOU are responsible for what you put in your body (food, supplements, etc) and what ingredients are in them. When you compete at that level, you need to be wary.

Jazz Hands
July 2nd, 2011, 01:13 PM
WADA lists it as a masking agent.

__steve__
July 3rd, 2011, 12:26 AM
Edited

gdanner
July 3rd, 2011, 04:12 PM
There are many instances of this that you don't hear about. Fina Aquatics magazine has a doping news section which lists high profile offenders. Freddie Bousquet tested positive for Heptaminol (Stimulant) in June, 2010 and was suspended for 2 months starting in September. American Sean Mahoney tested positive the same month for Methylhexaneamine (Stimulant) following last year's Santa Clara meet and was suspended for 6 months. You may not have heard about either of these.

TRYM_Swimmer
July 3rd, 2011, 04:16 PM
I am SO tired of the contaminated supplements excuse!!! Surely there are some first rate companies out there that wouldn't have that problem.

Spock
July 4th, 2011, 09:58 PM
more here (http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/8738)

Debugger
July 5th, 2011, 06:19 AM
Doesn't matter. The fact is that there is a list of banned substances. Don't have them in your system, that simple. YOU are responsible for what you put in your body (food, supplements, etc) and what ingredients are in them. When you compete at that level, you need to be wary.
Actually as an allergic person I used to get prescription from doc to use nasal sprays I was quite shocked when found out that some of them contain forbidden substances from WADAs list. Of course the doc who used to treat civil people who have nothing common with sport never heard about WADA.
Solution is to go to sports doc.
Another interesting story was about 2 teams went to train to China and after a while appeared to be positive for forbidden substances. After tests appeared that some Chinese entrepreneurs were adding steroids while producing food. WADA recommended sport teams to avoid making training camps in China. http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/02/22/sp-wada-china.html

__steve__
July 5th, 2011, 11:33 AM
Nothing worse for someone whose accomplished so much than being wrongfully accused. Everything prior losses its value. Just seems an unlikely risk to take.

MartinK
July 21st, 2011, 09:01 AM
And now he is officially able to start in china. This case is a big joke for everyone who is fighting against drugs and doping in this world.

Jazz Hands
July 21st, 2011, 09:13 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jul/21/cesar-cielo-cas-hearing

I think it's funny that contaminated caffeine was the defense, since caffeine is a PED.

swimmieAvsFan
July 21st, 2011, 09:42 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jul/21/cesar-cielo-cas-hearing

I think it's funny that contaminated caffeine was the defense, since caffeine is a PED.

caffeine is not on the banned substance list, this year. it is part of the monitoring program, therefore there are no penalties if/when it is found in a drug test, at any concentration.

you can argue that it does enhance performance, but it doesn't currently meet the definition of a PED, at least according to WADA.

fmracing
July 21st, 2011, 10:18 AM
It seems that the more time that goes by, the more people you thought were natural were really cheating all along. Its hard for me to be excited about any elite athelete in today's world, because its starting to feel like all the people who are on the top just haven't been caught yet. :(

:afraid:

Jazz Hands
July 21st, 2011, 10:30 AM
caffeine is not on the banned substance list, this year. it is part of the monitoring program, therefore there are no penalties if/when it is found in a drug test, at any concentration.

you can argue that it does enhance performance, but it doesn't currently meet the definition of a PED, at least according to WADA.

It's a drug that enhances performance.

arthur
July 21st, 2011, 10:44 AM
They test for so many things at such a low concentrations I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Especially since those who could test the supplements that the swimmers claimed were contaminated only gave them a warning.

lefty
July 21st, 2011, 10:52 AM
I am SO tired of the contaminated supplements excuse!!! Surely there are some first rate companies out there that wouldn't have that problem.

While I want to agree with you, I don't think you are correct. A supplement company cannot make money without selling to the public and you cannot mass produce anything and provide a 100% non-contaminated guarantee. It is a fact, you eat bugs when you eat panut butter!

A possible solution is that the governing bodies test supplements and make them available (in batches) to athletes who want them. Then, if you go out on your own and consequently fail a test, it is on you.

While this is not the case with Cielo, your typical swimmer is making $15,000 per year (I think that is what National B team memebers get), working at starbucks 20 hours a week trying to make the Olympics. These are not millionaires with unlimited resources.

selkie
July 21st, 2011, 10:57 AM
I'm not thrilled by the CAS' action on Cielo, but it should be noted that Cielo has effectively used up his free pass in the matter. CAS did uphold FINA's appeal against Vinicus Waked- so it's one year (and consequently no Olympics) for a second offense, even if it is allegedly inadvertent.

aquageek
July 21st, 2011, 10:59 AM
They test for so many things at such a low concentrations I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Especially since those who could test the supplements that the swimmers claimed were contaminated only gave them a warning.

I don't agree at all. You are responsible for what you put in your body. Even though they test at low levels those things they test for don't show up in a normal non-supplemented diet. I mean, why in the world would you test positive for a masking agent at any level? Tainted meat my arse.

swimmieAvsFan
July 21st, 2011, 12:10 PM
It's a drug that enhances performance.

at what concentration?

__steve__
July 21st, 2011, 12:32 PM
I think caffine might be considered a mild PED when sandbagged, or used with those that have no tolerance (non coffee drinkers).

In my case however coffee must be consumed to eliminated withdrwal

gdanner
July 21st, 2011, 12:46 PM
I don't typically believe people when they say their supplements were contaminated, but it does happen. Just one month ago, an NFL linebacker won a $5.4 million lawsuit against a supplements company:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/football/6068589-419/nfl-player-wins-5.4m-in-drug-lawsuit

Thrashing Slug
July 21st, 2011, 12:50 PM
A possible solution is that the governing bodies test supplements and make them available (in batches) to athletes who want them. Then, if you go out on your own and consequently fail a test, it is on you.

This is a great idea. :applaud:

ourswimmer
July 21st, 2011, 01:00 PM
Do any of these "contaminated" supplements even have anything meaningful in them except the "contaminants"? Don't sports supplements work primarily via the placebo effect?

The supplement-seller can maintain the fiction that its product does something, and keep up demand among athletes looking for that tiny extra edge, if every so often the product comes out "contaminated" with drugs that really do something, sort of like how unregulated medicines used to be "contaminated" with opium.

lefty
July 21st, 2011, 02:06 PM
Don't sports supplements work primarily via the placebo effect?


In a word, no. Supplements work primarily via the "increased cellular metabolism" effect.

Jazz Hands
July 21st, 2011, 02:25 PM
Don't sports supplements work primarily via the placebo effect?

It depends what supplement.

selkie
July 21st, 2011, 02:42 PM
There are some things like magnesium that are legitimately hard to get enough of even in an otherwise nutritionally balanced diet.

fatboy
July 21st, 2011, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by lefty
A possible solution is that the governing bodies test supplements and make them available (in batches) to athletes who want them. Then, if you go out on your own and consequently fail a test, it is on you.



This is a great idea. :applaud:

I think that many people taking supplements are trying to get "an edge" on their opponents. If everyone is taking the same supplements there is no "edge". Don't you think they would still try to find other supplements no sold by the governing body to try and get that advantage. And that's just the ones that are trying to stay legal. If they are knowingly taking a banned substance they will still do so.

ourswimmer
July 21st, 2011, 02:49 PM
I should be more precise. Take Mr. Cielo, for instance, who says that he was using a "caffeine supplement." I use a caffeine supplement every day. It is called Breakfast Blend. Like many of my friends and competitors, I often top off before races. Other caffeine supplements on the market include No Doz and Jolt Gum. What does a "sports supplement" of caffeine offer that No Doz doesn't, aside from either the placebo effect or the occasional dash of something even more metabolically stimulating than caffeine?

Same with the nutritional supplements, like vitamins or amino acids or whatever. You can buy vitamin supplements and nutritious food in any supermarket. What could a special sports powder offer, aside from the reassurance of a ripped athlete on the label, or for some (un)lucky users the training boost of clenbuterol or methyltestosterone?

Every "contaminated" supplement story I have ever read has involved products marketed expressly to athletes. I would be pretty surprised if a study showed that No Doz or Centrum or Enriched Malt-O-Meal were "contaminated" with PEDs. But I am not surprised at all that metabolically identical products marketed to athletes are.

Jazz Hands
July 21st, 2011, 03:06 PM
I should be more precise. Take Mr. Cielo, for instance, who says that he was using a "caffeine supplement." I use a caffeine supplement every day. It is called Breakfast Blend. Like many of my friends and competitors, I often top off before races. Other caffeine supplements on the market include No Doz and Jolt Gum. What does a "sports supplement" of caffeine offer that No Doz doesn't, aside from either the placebo effect or the occasional dash of something even more metabolically stimulating than caffeine?

Your intuition is correct here. Caffeine is most likely the thing that works in a supplement containing caffeine. Everything else is packaging and marketing. Things more stimulating than caffeine do exist, but I'm pretty sure they are all banned by WADA, and some of them are very dangerous.


Same with the nutritional supplements, like vitamins or amino acids or whatever. You can buy vitamin supplements and nutritious food in any supermarket. What could a special sports powder offer, aside from the reassurance of a ripped athlete on the label, or for some (un)lucky users the training boost of clenbuterol or methyltestosterone?

Again, correct. Protein and creatine can be very good supplements, but they don't need "special ingredients" added. Also, a lot of those supplements just have a bunch of sugar added. That's a severe waste of money.


Every "contaminated" supplement story I have ever read has involved products marketed expressly to athletes. I would be pretty surprised if a study showed that No Doz or Centrum or Enriched Malt-O-Meal were "contaminated" with PEDs. But I am not surprised at all that metabolically identical products marketed to athletes are.

You're just speculating, and I don't see a difference in marketing. Most supplements are marketed to obsessive health freaks and bodybuilders. I don't think I've ever seen the athlete-oriented things you're talking about. Also, there have been a few cases recently of clenbuterol in meat. So I wouldn't necessarily trust anything just because it's a "mainstream" product. What confuses me is why these guys are so confident that their caffeine was contaminated. How would one go about deducing that?

arthur
July 21st, 2011, 03:27 PM
...What confuses me is why these guys are so confident that their caffeine was contaminated. How would one go about deducing that?
In the Court of Arbitration for Sport press release: http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/5062/5048/0/Media20Release20ENGLISH2021.07.11.pdf at the bottom they say will release the grounds for their decision in a few weeks. Until then everyone is just speculating.

Speedo
July 21st, 2011, 04:43 PM
In the Court of Arbitration for Sport press release: http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/5062/5048/0/Media20Release20ENGLISH2021.07.11.pdf at the bottom they say will release the grounds for their decision in a few weeks. Until then everyone is just speculating.It would be helpful if the grounds are the actual grounds.

__steve__
July 21st, 2011, 07:19 PM
I just glanced over the WADA 2011 prohibited list. Mannitol is included in the "masking" category. I used to work at a pharmaceutical development company, I remember mannitol was used in just about everything as an inactive filler (solvent characteristics). I can see how it's very possible someone can get dinged innocently. But not without some negligence of knowing the details of what's ingested. Even shampoo has banned compounds

jim clemmons
July 21st, 2011, 07:44 PM
It would be helpful if the grounds are the actual grounds.

...as in coffee grounds? Or what?

mikeh
July 24th, 2011, 02:35 PM
There are many instances of this that you don't hear about. Fina Aquatics magazine has a doping news section which lists high profile offenders. Freddie Bousquet tested positive for Heptaminol (Stimulant) in June, 2010 and was suspended for 2 months starting in September. American Sean Mahoney tested positive the same month for Methylhexaneamine (Stimulant) following last year's Santa Clara meet and was suspended for 6 months. You may not have heard about either of these.

Wow, I had not heard of Fred Bousquet's suspension. What a shame.

selkie
July 24th, 2011, 03:54 PM
Fred actually had the second most cringeworthy doping positive of 2010- an unfamiliar drug store during Mare Nostrum gave him the wrong cream for chronic painful hemrhoids, and that cream contained a banned substance. (Most cringeworthy was track star Lashawn Merritt saying that 'male enhancement product' Enzyte was the cause of his doping positive test.)