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Jamesmap2
July 4th, 2011, 01:52 AM
i have heard that sprint swimmers (50m) do not have to train as frequently as distance swimmers is this true???

That Guy
July 4th, 2011, 02:08 AM
Read Jazz Hands' blog (http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=3622).

Jamesmap2
July 4th, 2011, 04:45 AM
this guy seems to do mainly weights, is this normal?

Couroboros
July 4th, 2011, 04:56 AM
Recently, Bob Bowman posted a picture of one of his sprinters on his twitter account. The caption was: "NBAC's sprint program" or something like that.

And what was the sprinter doing?

Relaxing in the jacuzzi.

Jazz Hands
July 4th, 2011, 07:33 AM
this guy seems to do mainly weights, is this normal?

Normal?

__steve__
July 4th, 2011, 07:58 AM
They log less distance probably

KEWebb18
July 4th, 2011, 09:23 AM
Most sprinters prefer quality over quantity. See Fort's blog (http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=4677) if you are interested in how sprinters train.

rtodd
July 4th, 2011, 01:54 PM
The yardage is less than distance swimmers but I am sure their training includes aerobic sets. Maintaining an aerobic base facilitates recovery during lactate sets. It also helps with active recovery. I wonder what the total yardage reduction is though.

The 50m may be a totally different animal though. But I think if you are training for only the 50, you are also " training" for the 100. Can you really just train for the 50 without training for the 100?

__steve__
July 4th, 2011, 02:55 PM
I wonder what the total yardage reduction is though.

The 50m may be a totally different animal though
Stefan Nystrand, claimed he never did more than 3000M per session or 20,000M per week. He was just as good in the 100

Chris Stevenson
July 4th, 2011, 04:04 PM
I think if you are training for only the 50, you are also " training" for the 100.

That's true. Raw speed definitely helps the 100. So does working on technical aspects of the swim (eg, starts, turns, breakouts).


Can you really just train for the 50 without training for the 100?

Sort of. I think that training for the 50 carries over to the 100, but lactate tolerance is more important in the latter. If ALL you do is speed-work, and very few (or no) lactate tolerance sets, then your 50 will be significantly better than your 100. Just my opinion, of course.

quicksilver
July 4th, 2011, 09:48 PM
Can you really just train for the 50 without training for the 100?

If there's not enough depth in the training, then being focused entirely on the 50 might not translate to an optimal performance in the 100. Then again everyone is different.

If it makes any sense, the 100 is like an endurance sprint. Aside from strength it does require a bit of stamina.

Jamesmap2
July 9th, 2011, 04:52 AM
i am ONLY focused on the 50m and belive i can get good results by gym-ing alot and swimming (weekly) only to correct my stroke and starts.

Possible???

__steve__
July 9th, 2011, 08:18 AM
I believe about 5000 week should be spent on form and recovery swimming with HR below 120BMP.

Speedo
July 9th, 2011, 08:24 AM
In my opinion, swimming 1x/wk will not give you the best 50.

Allen Stark
July 9th, 2011, 10:06 AM
i am ONLY focused on the 50m and belive i can get good results by gym-ing alot and swimming (weekly) only to correct my stroke and starts.

Possible???

I guess it depends on what you mean by "good results" and how good your strokes and start are already."Gym-ing" will help your power which is very important for sprinting,but I think you will get better with a little more pool time(3 times a week would seem the minimum to me but YMMV)to work on stroke rate,hand speed,foot speed,streamlining.DPS,etc. Just my :2cents:.

Debugger
July 9th, 2011, 12:46 PM
i am ONLY focused on the 50m and belive i can get good results by gym-ing alot and swimming (weekly) only to correct my stroke and starts.

Possible???
To swim better you need to swim more. Alain Bernard told in an interview that he swims 60km weekly + gym. Indeed everything depends on your swimming level. The weaker level of swimming, the more time you need to swim and less time spend in gym. I would prefer using paddles and other swimming devices to increase strength.
In my case technique suffered a lot when I tried gym - my muscles were like a sponge after gym. Maybe I did something wrong I don't know but I barely could swim after.

Jazz Hands
July 9th, 2011, 01:59 PM
To swim better you need to swim more. Alain Bernard told in an interview that he swims 60km weekly + gym. Indeed everything depends on your swimming level. The weaker level of swimming, the more time you need to swim and less time spend in gym. I would prefer using paddles and other swimming devices to increase strength.
In my case technique suffered a lot when I tried gym - my muscles were like a sponge after gym. Maybe I did something wrong I don't know but I barely could swim after.

1. There exist sprinters other than Alain Bernard.

2. You tried to swim directly after lifting weights and you felt slow? That's not when you see the results from lifting.

The Fortress
July 9th, 2011, 02:17 PM
1. There exist sprinters other than Alain Bernard.

2. You tried to swim directly after lifting weights and you felt slow? That's not when you see the results from lifting.

Definitely!

I frequently swim right after lifting without difficulty. It's the day or two after that I feel it. Paddles, chutes and fins can help build strength (and improve technique), but aren't really a substitute for the gym.

Just working on starts and turns won't get you there. Focus on speed-speed-speed. Do AFAP efforts (12.5/25/50s) with lots of rest.

60K a week and I'd be swimming non sprint events or have quit masters. 4-5x a week of fairly low yardage works well for me. YMMV.

__steve__
July 9th, 2011, 03:30 PM
Personally I find swimming more demanding on lifting than lifting is on swimming when done succession, resp. Maybe because I'm still kind of new with swimmin?

Sorry for straying OT

Debugger
July 9th, 2011, 03:46 PM
1. There exist sprinters other than Alain Bernard.

2. You tried to swim directly after lifting weights and you felt slow? That's not when you see the results from lifting.
1. Sure there's also Alexander Popov for example - he used to swim even more than 60km.
2. It's not the matter that I felt slow - entire week after that my hands were like made from wood - I couldn't stretch them same as I could not bend them and... for 3 days after that I couldn't get up from bed without assistance :-( Damn I didn't use heavy weights - max was 3 sets 15 repeats each. That was really easy when I trained in a gym 4 times a week in my college time.

Chris Stevenson
July 9th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Referring to the thread question, "how" is almost certainly more important than "how much." And "how much" doesn't have to mean "total yardage," either. (For example, one could answer "almost every day" or "X hours per day" or whatever.)

fritznh
July 9th, 2011, 09:03 PM
As a follow on to Chris' observation, I think sprinters need to train "enough" which is to say enough to do the race on which you're focused.

I've found training for the 50 is different from training for the 100 by a long shot. At least in the 50 free, the race is really about turnover and keeping your stroke together. You can also get away with not breathing in the 50, but if you try that in the 100 you'll be toast as soon as you make your second turn. Lifting weights helps in terms of turnover, but you still need to swim at least every other day (IMHO).

ande
July 12th, 2011, 04:41 PM
As a follow on to Chris' observation, I think sprinters need to train "enough" which is to say enough to do the race on which you're focused.

I've found training for the 50 is different from training for the 100 by a long shot. At least in the 50 free, the race is really about turnover and keeping your stroke together. You can also get away with not breathing in the 50, but if you try that in the 100 you'll be toast as soon as you make your second turn. Lifting weights helps in terms of turnover, but you still need to swim at least every other day (IMHO).

Agreed

We become what we do.

Train to RACE, don't train to train.

Develop the abilities you need.

Technique

RAW SPEED for your first 25 and
Speed Endurance for your 2nd 25.

Strength & Power

RACING

Splitting

Getting in IPS

Be a slimmer swimmer
get your height weight proportions in line with
the height weight proportions of elite swimmers.


It basically boils down to this:

SWIM and kick VERY FAST IN PRACTICE

Sprint workouts need to provide enough rest enough between fast swims.

Rich Abrahams said:
"When training, most swimmers swim:
too fast when they should be going slow and
too slow when they should be going fast."

knelson
July 13th, 2011, 12:39 AM
Possible???

I think it's possible if you have an ungodly level of proprioception, otherwise you're going to need to be in the pool a lot more. Raw power is not enough. You need to be able to apply that power through your pull and kick while at the same time, minimizing drag. I would guess very few people have the skill to do this while only getting in the water once a week.

Purple Swimmer
July 13th, 2011, 12:50 AM
The sprinters on my team are quite the opposite. They tend to do too many sets if you ask me.

Jamesmap2
August 23rd, 2011, 10:26 PM
In practise today is swam a long Corse 50m in (not my best time) of 32.52 but that made me wonder how much time would, shaving, using a race suit, a good taper and blocks instead of just diving in of the side of the pool save.
thanks

rtodd
August 24th, 2011, 11:32 AM
Man, a whole lot depends on what occured before that 32.5 in practice and how much rest you had before. Let's say it was near the end of a workout and you got rest, then I would say 27.5 off the blocks with a taper.

__steve__
August 24th, 2011, 12:13 PM
If you never swam competitavely you will see huge improvements at first, mainly because of starting point. Then, once improvements have dissappeared consider 0.25 seconds a major breakthrough


Let's say it was near the end of a workout and you got rest, then I would say 27.5 off the blocks with a taper.
I swim within 1.5 sec of my race time with a push, unshven, unrested, etc. But during a race just prior to my event I'm a nervous wreck. But a 27.5 50 would make my day, even a 28.5, or a 29.2.

thewookiee
August 24th, 2011, 12:59 PM
If you never swam competitavely you will see huge improvements at first, mainly because of starting point. Then, once improvements have dissappeared consider 0.25 seconds a major breakthrough


I swim within 1.5 sec of my race time with a push, unshven, unrested, etc. But during a race just prior to my event I'm a nervous wreck. But a 27.5 50 would make my day, even a 28.5, or a 29.2.

Steve, are you swimming in the meet in Asheville in Sept? A few people have said that is a good meet with a good amount of fast people for an early in-season meet to hit that sub 28

gaash
August 24th, 2011, 01:30 PM
Man, a whole lot depends on what occured before that 32.5 in practice and how much rest you had before. Let's say it was near the end of a workout and you got rest, then I would say 27.5 off the blocks with a taper.

I'm going to say no way you improve 5 seconds. Probably as steve said 1.5 seconds or so so like 31. When I was swimming regularly I could do the 50 in about 25.2 in a meet (yards, yeah I know, I was slow) but I could do 27-28 at the end of practice even pretty much regardless of how hard it was. Maybe someone can get 2-3 seconds, but 5 seconds, no way unless that 50 was part of 50x50s on 45 seconds or something.

pmccoy
August 24th, 2011, 03:14 PM
I'm going to say no way you improve 5 seconds. Probably as steve said 1.5 seconds or so so like 31. When I was swimming regularly I could do the 50 in about 25.2 in a meet (yards, yeah I know, I was slow) but I could do 27-28 at the end of practice even pretty much regardless of how hard it was. Maybe someone can get 2-3 seconds, but 5 seconds, no way unless that 50 was part of 50x50s on 45 seconds or something.
I don't know... I was doing 34-35 before Nationals. Ended up going 29.8. Made 28.9 on our free relay but I dqd us in the process. I also could never break 1:14 from a dive doing 100 free in practice. Ended up with a 1:06 which I thought I could have done much better on. Lots of factors could go into all of this:

Training Distance - I was piling up meters (5K-7K 6 days a week) to train for 200 br so I was pretty beat up when I did sprints for time.
Drag suit - Mine is an Arena suit which seems to absorb water like a sponge. It drags more than my old speedo suit did. My Yingfa racing jammer felt much different (faster) when I hit the water... even better than my Speedo Aquablade.
Shave/Taper - Don't know exactly how much difference this makes but it sure seems to help a lot.
Dive - gotta believe this gives at least a second.
Psychological - My 50 free came right after I blew past my 3:00 goal on 200 Br so I was pretty pumped up.
Pool/water - I trained in 84 degree water all summer long. Swimming in the cooler water at a fast pool like Auburn has to help some.

So, yes I think 5 seconds is possible but under the right circumstances.

__steve__
August 24th, 2011, 03:47 PM
Steve, are you swimming in the meet in Asheville in Sept? A few people have said that is a good meet with a good amount of fast people for an early in-season meet to hit that sub 28Have reserves that weekend:bitching:. Asheville that time of year sure sounds nice though. Perhaps a 2nd hurricane might land that weekend giving us a good evacuation destination.

rtodd
August 24th, 2011, 03:56 PM
I'm like 35 from a push near the end of a practice on a hard 50 and go under 30 pretty easy from the blocks in a meet. That's what I based my guess on. Just don't know how one could swim within 1.5 seconds of their meet time in a 50 LCM from a push in practice. That's some serious practice speed!

gaash
August 24th, 2011, 04:03 PM
I'm like 35 from a push near the end of a practice on a hard 50 and go under 30 pretty easy from the blocks in a meet. That's what I based my guess on. Just don't know how one could swim within 1.5 seconds of their meet time in a 50 LCM from a push in practice. That's some serious practice speed!

Weird. I guess I was a big slacker then. I will note he mentioned a dive off the side so not exactly a push start.