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adrianandcielo
July 19th, 2011, 11:51 PM
i have an important question , how can i get my arm recovery/stroke to get faste.r(increase arm speed). I go 23.19 in the 50 free, and i recently went 27.28 in LCM but my arm speed is veryy slow.... any tips ? i would like for my arms to go as fast as cesar cielo or nathan adrians.

fmracing
July 20th, 2011, 08:35 AM
i have an important question , how can i get my arm recovery/stroke to get faste.r(increase arm speed). I go 23.19 in the 50 free, and i recently went 27.28 in LCM but my arm speed is veryy slow.... any tips ? i would like for my arms to go as fast as cesar cielo or nathan adrians.


Be careful about just adding to your turnover rate. When I see people concerned with only armspeed/stroke rate they tend to shorten their stroke to compensate. (I'm a victim of this myself too). Make sure while you're increasing stroke rate, you're also working harder to keep your stroke distance as long as possible, otherwise you'll trade arm speed for distance and net gain will be zero.

As far as learning how to do this faster. I always liked the closed fist sprint for working on fast turnover. It helps you to get used to that stroke rate, breathing, body roll, kicking, etc without having to apply the force of sprinting. Also work on buildup swims. Start slow and work your stroke rate up to the maximum on each swim. Keep your mind focused more on keeping your stroke consistent as you ramp up the stroke rate. If you only concentrate on that rate itself, as I said earlier its very easy to shorten up the stroke on accident.

Also, with a crazy high stroke rate your movements can become more violent and uncontrolled. This can highlight problems with your stroke and/or cause injury if you are currently doing something wrong. I've been working on this same thing this year, and I realized I was sweeping one arm out too wide on the single breath in my 50... not before tweaking my shoulder though. Its such a subtle thing, but it only takes one really wrong violent movement to cause an injury.

Jazz Hands
July 20th, 2011, 09:03 AM
i have an important question , how can i get my arm recovery/stroke to get faste.r(increase arm speed). I go 23.19 in the 50 free, and i recently went 27.28 in LCM but my arm speed is veryy slow.... any tips ? i would like for my arms to go as fast as cesar cielo or nathan adrians.

Yes I see that from your username.

First, you have to realize that your goal is not to move your arms faster. Your goal is to swim faster. Don't worry about any stroke rate other than the one that you are going to use to be fast and efficient.

If you think your arm speed is slow, that might mean you are gliding too much or pulling too far back, but I can't really say that for sure unless I see a video. When I was in high school, I had a 25-second 50-yard free until my coach told me not to pull my arm all the way to my side. My turnover got faster and I suddenly dropped about a second. It could be something as simple as that, or maybe not.

Or, maybe you have a good feel for the water, but you have a lack of strength. That's also something I would need more information about. How old are you? Do you do strength training? What are some of your strength numbers?

Having slow turnover from poor strength could also just mean that you are more suited for distance events. Distance swimmers produce less peak power, but they are able to maintain their power for a longer period of time than sprinters.

SolarEnergy
July 20th, 2011, 12:22 PM
i have an important question , how can i get my arm recovery/stroke to get faste.r(increase arm speed). I go 23.19 in the 50 free, and i recently went 27.28 in LCM but my arm speed is veryy slow.... any tips ? i would like for my arms to go as fast as cesar cielo or nathan adrians. If it's your quest (for what it's worth, I think it's a legitimate one), then one good way of increasing the rate is first to at least be aware of it.

Two ways... Either you use a wetronome device which will give you your target stroke rate. You set it to 90SPM, it beeps 90 times per minute.
http://www.wetronome.com/

The other way is to use some computer which will compute both stroke lengths and rate for you. In this case, the guizmo won't beep at all. Instead, it allows you to actually see what your rate was after a set.

http://www.finisinc.com/equipment/electronics/swimsense.html

adrianandcielo
July 20th, 2011, 12:58 PM
jazz hands i think you may be right about me pulling all the way through, im going to try to post the video of my 50 LCM freestyle within the next two days . thanks for all the help thus far though

adrianandcielo
July 20th, 2011, 01:01 PM
jazz hands , i think you may be right about my hand pulling too far out, im ging to try and send in the video of my LCM freestyle within two days, thanks for the help thus far though

adrianandcielo
July 20th, 2011, 01:44 PM
and im 16 years old, 145 , if you mean strength numbers by lifing weights i go to the weight room alot but havent went in almost a month. i bench 200 lbs (max), but i do sets of 175, and 180. i do dumbells curls with 35 lbs ( sometimes 40lbs)

Jazz Hands
July 20th, 2011, 02:27 PM
and im 16 years old, 145 , if you mean strength numbers by lifing weights i go to the weight room alot but havent went in almost a month. i bench 200 lbs (max), but i do sets of 175, and 180. i do dumbells curls with 35 lbs ( sometimes 40lbs)

Benching and curling, of course :)

Work on squats, deadlifts, pull-ups, and dips. That will help your sprinting speed regardless of any technique issues.

ande
July 20th, 2011, 03:08 PM
Hey A&C,

you wrote:

i have an important question,
how can i get my arm recovery / stroke to get faster (increase arm speed)?
I go 23.19 in the 50 free, and i recently went 27.28 in LCM but my arm speed is very slow.... any tips? i would like for my arms to go as fast as cesar cielo or nathan adrians.

jazz hands i think you may be right about me pulling all the way through, im going to try to post the video of my 50 LCM freestyle within the next two days. thanks for all the help thus far though

jazz hands , i think you may be right about my hand pulling too far out, im ging to try and send in the video of my LCM freestyle within two days, thanks for the help thus far though

and im 16 years old, 145 , if you mean strength numbers by lifing weights i go to the weight room alot but havent went in almost a month. i bench 200 lbs (max), but i do sets of 175, and 180. i do dumbells curls with 35 lbs
( sometimes 40lbs )

I too would love to swim like Cesar & Nathan.
How tall are you?
What kind of training are you doing?

First you're just 16, you should train for many events.
100's, 200's 500's & 1000's
16 is the perfect age to do a lot of serious focused training.
Build a great base. Don't worry about the 50 just yet, have an awesome 200 & 500, you can go down to shorter events when you're older.
That foundation will help you finish 50's & 100's faster when you're older and stronger. Get the conditioning, endurance & technique then add strength when you're 18, 19, 20 & on.


Read Swim Faster Faster


Improve your flutter kick


Improve your SDK (streamline dolphin kick)

Improve your SPEED


here's a few of my favorite SFF tips


Tip 347 Eddie Reese on 4 Ways Swimmers Improve

Tip 340 Go On a Vision Quest to Become your Best


Train harder, smarter, faster, further, more often with a
positive attitude, coached by a
great coach, with
fast fun positive hard working team mates, in a
convenient facility with adequate lane space & at
convenient times while having
tons of fun

Swim fast in practice
Kick fast in practice
Swimming fast is fun
Have lots of fun

Ande

orca1946
July 20th, 2011, 03:08 PM
Rather than faster hands - more muscle to propel you thru all phases of the stroke !!

Jazz Hands
July 20th, 2011, 03:09 PM
Build a great base. Don't worry about the 50 just yet, have an awesome 200 & 500, you can go down to shorter events when you're older.
That foundation will help you finish 50's & 100's faster when you're older and stronger. Get the conditioning, endurance & technique then add strength when you're 18, 19, 20 & on.

There's zero evidence that this is actually true.

__steve__
July 20th, 2011, 03:47 PM
I watched a video of Cielo doing underwater freestyle (25's with flippers completly submerged) specificly for snappy arm recovery.

ande
July 20th, 2011, 04:00 PM
There's zero evidence that this is actually true.

Jazz,

We're just going to differ on this point.

Alot of swimmers trained for everything and did longer events when they were younger. I am absolutely sure it helps.

Jesse Vasallo still has the 13 14 boys 1500 m free record and he wound up breaking WRs in the 200 IM

Tom Jager sometimes swam the 1650 when he was 13 14 & maybe 15 16

John Smith's son Clark, who's now 16 went 20.9 in the 50, 48.5 in the 100 fly, 4:32 in the 500 & 9:10 in the 1000.

Missy Franklin can swim anything.

so could Tracy Caulkins, she broke several WR's & American Records in every stroke.

Jazz, my guess is at some point in your life you probably did some longer harder training which to this day enables you to lift and do a few short sprints for practice and still go fairly fast.

It doesn't hurt to train hard and it helps to be good in many events.
There aren't any short cuts.

Ande

Jazz Hands
July 20th, 2011, 04:15 PM
Jazz,

We're just going to differ on this point.

Alot of swimmers trained for everything and did longer events when they were younger.

Jesse Vasallo still has the 13 14 boys 1500 m free record and he wound up breaking WRs in the 200 IM

Tom Jager sometimes swam the 1650 when he was 13 14 & maybe 15 16

John Smith's son Clark, who's now 16 went 20.9 in the 50, 48.5 in the 100 fly, 4:32 in the 500 & 9:10 in the 1000.

Missy Franklin can swim anything.

so could Tracy Caulkins, she broke several WR's & American Records in every stroke.

Jazz, my guess is at some point in your life you probably did some longer harder training which to this day enables you to lift and do a few short sprints for practice and still go fairly fast.

It doesn't hurt to train hard and it helps to be good in many events.
There aren't any short cuts.

Ande

Short cuts? What about training specifically for what you want to get good at?

Suppose it was customary for swimmers to all train on unicycles. Everybody does it. Coaches all believe in building a unicycle base for swimming. All of the swimmers you listed, in this alternate reality, would have extensive background in unicycle training. Guys, did you know that Tom Jager's first nationals cut was in a unicycle race?

Would you then suggest that skipping the unicycle training is looking for a non-existent short cut around all of the hard unicycle work that all fast swimmers obviously need to do?

ande
July 20th, 2011, 04:25 PM
Short cuts?
What about training specifically for what you want to get good at?

Suppose it was customary for swimmers to all train on unicycles. Everybody does it. Coaches all believe in building a unicycle base for swimming. All of the swimmers you listed, in this alternate reality, would have extensive background in unicycle training. Guys, did you know that Tom Jaeger's first nationals cut was in a unicycle race?

Would you then suggest that skipping the unicycle training is looking for a non-existent short cut around all of the hard unicycle work that all fast swimmers obviously need to do?

What about training specifically for what you want to get good at?
I'm all for training specifically for what you want to get good at.

I don't think young swimmers know, if they haven't put in the work at some point in their lives they aren't likely to maximize their ability.

Your unicycle point is silly.

Brian, what do you need to do to go faster?

Ande

Jazz Hands
July 20th, 2011, 04:28 PM
Your unicycle point is silly.

So is everything you are saying. You have no evidence and no logic, just a bunch of crap that coaches have been asserting (with no evidence) for decades.


Brian, what do you need to do to go faster?

Do you even realize how condescending you sound when you do this?

fmracing
July 20th, 2011, 04:30 PM
Work on squats, deadlifts, pull-ups, and dips. That will help your sprinting speed regardless of any technique issues.

Agreed... the "man" excercises i.e. biceps and bench are only going to help sprinting a tiny bit.

I substitute pullups and dips with tricep pushdowns, seated close-grip rows, and close-grip pulldowns. I do a LOT of the latter two because I feel they are the same direct movement my arms are making for sprint crawl. ( I feel there is more value there for me because I can work explosiveness on the weight machine whereas I cannot on pullups or dips. When you're a fata$$ like me, pullups and dips are a potential cause for injury because it is just too much weight. )

Just as a side note to the weight training... don't ignore the stabilizer muscles also. Its far less thrilling to do external shoulder rotations with 5lb dumbells than 250lbs on the bench, but its important nonetheless.

adrianandcielo
July 20th, 2011, 04:31 PM
im 5'7 , but im not a 200 swimmer, or 500, my 200 is 1:53, My hundred is 49.83, and my 100 fly is 55.86. can i see the link for cesar cielo underwater swim with fins

Chris Stevenson
July 20th, 2011, 04:33 PM
jazz hands i think you may be right about me pulling all the way through, im going to try to post the video of my 50 LCM freestyle within the next two days . thanks for all the help thus far though

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not a sprinter, though I can fake it at times. I prefer mid-D events. So take whatever I say with a grain of salt.

I agree with Jazz, I am not certain that "pulling all the way through" is conducive to top speed. My impression, possibly incorrect, is that most top sprinters are more focused on the front quadrant, where there is more power, than a good finish. They might sacrifice some DPS, hand exiting a little earlier, in order to get a higher stroke rate.


If it's your quest (for what it's worth, I think it's a legitimate one), then one good way of increasing the rate is first to at least be aware of it.

Two ways... Either you use a wetronome device which will give you your target stroke rate. You set it to 90SPM, it beeps 90 times per minute.
http://www.wetronome.com/

The other way is to use some computer which will compute both stroke lengths and rate for you. In this case, the guizmo won't beep at all. Instead, it allows you to actually see what your rate was after a set.

http://www.finisinc.com/equipment/electronics/swimsense.html

I would suggest the Tempo Trainer (http://www.finisinc.com/tempo-trainer.html) before either of the above devices. One possible thing to try:

-- get used to using the Tempo Trainer at a variety of stroke rates. Set for a variety of SRs and repeat until you are certain you have a good feel for the technique needed to achieve a given SR.

-- do some experimenting. What SR results in the fastest times in sprint 25s? How sensitive is the time to SR? You maybe can find your "sweet spot" in this manner. Then condition yourself to be able to hold that SR over longer distances.

Possibly as you get stronger or develop more lactate tolerance, your sweet spot might shift over time to a faster turnover.

Good luck.

thewookiee
July 20th, 2011, 04:37 PM
im 5'7 , but im not a 200 swimmer, or 500, my 200 is 1:53, My hundred is 49.83, and my 100 fly is 55.86. can i see the link for cesar cielo underwater swim with fins

If you are 16, then don't say you "aren't a 200/500 swimmer" You don't know really what you are at 16. You may find that by not limiting yourself to the 50 or even the 100 that you excel in other events as well.

If you go :23 in the 50 and :49 in the 100, that right now you are better in the 100.

Train and explore all the events, like Ande suggested. As you get older and your body changes, you may find you become better in different events but if you limit yourself to the 50/100 free and fly, then you are limiting your chances at enjoying a wide range of swimming events.

Jazz Hands
July 20th, 2011, 04:37 PM
I am not certain that "pulling all the way through" is conducive to top speed. My impression, possibly incorrect, is that most top sprinters are more focused on the front quadrant, where there is more power, than a good finish. They might sacrifice some DPS, hand exiting a little earlier, in order to get a higher stroke rate.

That's correct. You have to let go at the hip. You're probably doing it in middle distance freestyle as well, without thinking about it.

It's not necessarily a DPS sacrifice, either. When you spend time extending your arm at your side, you are producing less power than the middle segment of the stroke, because the lats are no longer involved. So you're spending time without producing much propulsion, and then spending more time getting the arm back forward out of that awkward position. In everybody's freestyle stroke there's a gap between the impulses from the left and right arms. If you waste time in the arm stroke, that gap gets bigger, and you spend more time losing speed due to drag. This can cause a decrease in DPS.

rtodd
July 20th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Cullen Jones' stroke rate is around 0.8 seconds per cycle in the 50. Distance guys are around .93 for the 1500. It's a noticable difference but not as big as you would think. Concentrate on what gets you down the pool the fastest. I think stroke rate is dictated by many things: height, reach, leg strength, kick cadence, frontal profile and resistance etc. Remember you need traction in your kick and pull, you can't just spin, you need to grip. Make sure you can swim a fast 500. This is a measure of streamlining and efficiency, then take that efficiency to your 50 with bulging muscles from the weight room (someday, you are still young).

Jazz Hands
July 20th, 2011, 04:55 PM
im 5'7 , but im not a 200 swimmer, or 500, my 200 is 1:53, My hundred is 49.83, and my 100 fly is 55.86. can i see the link for cesar cielo underwater swim with fins

Sorry man, but you're not a natural sprinter if you're going under 50.0 and over 23.0.

Allen Stark
July 20th, 2011, 04:58 PM
How tall are you and how tall are your father and your mother?How high is your vertical jump.If you are over 6'2" now,your dad is 6'5" &/or your mom is 6' and your vertical jump is over 30" then forget what Ande said and really focus on sprinting,otherwise,yes diversify for now(Actually, don't blow off what Ande said entirely anyway,while Jazz is right that good data is nonexistent,an aerobic base at 16 is probably a good thing to have.).By the way at 12 I knew I was going to be a breaststroker.In age group I did all the strokes(we had to) and ended up a breaststroker(when you are short and walk like a duck,everyone knows you are going to be a breaststroker.)

adrianandcielo
July 20th, 2011, 05:17 PM
im 5'7 , my mom is 5'7 dad is 5'11.. my vertical is high( i dont know what exactly) but i can almost dunk, and grab rim with two hands.

rtodd
July 20th, 2011, 09:13 PM
That's a remarkable vertical leap.

adrianandcielo
July 20th, 2011, 10:34 PM
thanks and the thing is that i developed it in almost 2 months, beginning of the school year i was only touching the bottom of the rim, and then out of no where i was able to grab onto it