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martin_05
August 12th, 2011, 11:51 AM
I will be swimming five days a week. I want to use the other two days for complementary non-swimming workouts. I am looking for suggestions. Being that I am out of shape the first thing that comes to mind is weight training. I could see some yoga in there as well.

Or...should I only use one day for a non-swimming workout and rest for one day?

jaadams1
August 12th, 2011, 11:52 AM
I will be swimming five days a week. I want to use the other two days for complementary non-swimming workouts. I am looking for suggestions. Being that I am out of shape the first thing that comes to mind is weight training. I could see some yoga in there as well.

Or...should I only use one day for a non-swimming workout and rest for one day?

Rest at least 1 day. :bed:

orca1946
August 12th, 2011, 12:55 PM
A good all around gym workout of cardio & most muscle groups will return you a great benefit. Maybe 2 days a week would be better.

Speedo
August 12th, 2011, 12:57 PM
...the first thing that comes to mind is weight training. :agree:

gigi
August 12th, 2011, 01:00 PM
I practice with a team 5 times a week and I like to get in at least 3 sessions of "something else" every week too. My go-to's are strength training with my TRX Suspension Trainer (uses body weight to do a variety of exercises) and strength/flexibility work with yoga. I use DVDs for my yoga practice - not ideal, but cheaper than classes by a lot.

Once or twice a year I do a "boot-camp" type class at the Y or at the park for a couple of weeks to shake things up.

I always have one day a week where I don't really do an actual workout - but I will usually go for a hike or bike ride or something casual...only bec. I'm naturally antsy.

Good luck!

qbrain
August 12th, 2011, 01:35 PM
I could see some yoga in there as well.


I am a fan of weight training to supplement swimming, but...

Starting with Yoga is not a bad idea. It will return all your joints to a full range of motion and develop your core. Both will help a lot in preventing injury when lifting. eg. If your hamstrings are tight, you will lift from the ground (any lift from the ground) with too much back leading to lower back strain.

bud
August 12th, 2011, 07:08 PM
If you've not heard the term "dry-land", you likely will. These are the swimming related exercises done out of the pool. Try searching that here or on the web... or just ask your coach.

I believe Yoga is the ultimate compliment to swimming. They are remarkably similar. As mentioned, it is a great core strength builder and flexibility helper... plus it gives your muscles a good stretch. A good teacher/class is indispensable (kinda like w/ swimming). ;)

Have Fun!

:)

Chris Stevenson
August 12th, 2011, 08:49 PM
I believe Yoga is the ultimate complement to swimming. They are remarkably similar.

I am not a yoga person and make no judgment about it merits; swimmers that I respect like yoga a lot. But don't these statements seems contradictory?

Here are two articles on yoga on the USMS website:

http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=222

http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=295

orca1946
August 13th, 2011, 12:54 AM
Back in the old days we always warmed up by flexing a lot. I almost never see most swimmers do anything before jumping in at practice. At more important meets, I see more but not all doing some dry land warm ups.

androvski
August 13th, 2011, 05:26 AM
Lift heavy stuff.

Swim Faster Stronger - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

martin_05
August 13th, 2011, 10:37 AM
How about rowing (sculling)?

I was reading that lots of swimming (freestyle) might develop muscles on the front of the body at the expense of back muscles. Rowing, I would think, provides a lot of back muscle development. It might just be the perfect complement.

chaos
August 13th, 2011, 02:52 PM
chain gang, boot camp, or boxing.

qbrain
August 13th, 2011, 05:43 PM
I was reading that lots of swimming (freestyle) might develop muscles on the front of the body at the expense of back muscles.

Since all the strokes are powered by the back muscles, I would consider discontinuing reading whatever crap source you found that article.

orca1946
August 13th, 2011, 07:23 PM
All muscle groups need to be worked , no matter what book you refer to !!

swimshark
August 13th, 2011, 08:30 PM
I just ordered this today and am looking forward to trying it out. Nathan has a great background.

Amazon.com: Gym-Free and Ripped: Weight-Free Workouts That Build and Sculpt (9781615640997): Nathan Jendrick: Books

martin_05
August 14th, 2011, 01:59 PM
Since all the strokes are powered by the back muscles, I would consider discontinuing reading whatever crap source you found that article.

I don't think it's crap sources, although I am here to learn. Here's a quote:


As any coach knows, swimming is a great low impact workout, but if an athlete just swims, without doing counteracting physical activity, the body can become misaligned. For example, swimmers generally have overdeveloped their front bodies (backstrokers may suffer from this less) with strong pectorals. This causes the muscles on the back of the body, specifically those that hold the rhomboids or shoulder blades in place, to become relatively weak. This creates the typical hunched-back swimmers’ posture that we are all familiar with.

Here's the source:

http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=222

Wrong?

I don't know. I'm just a newbie trying to learn.

qbrain
August 14th, 2011, 02:20 PM
I don't think it's crap sources, although I am here to learn. Here's a quote:



Here's the source:

http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=222

Wrong?

I don't know. I'm just a newbie trying to learn.

Yes, that is amazingly wrong. Great to see USMS promoting misinformation.

Swimmers suffer from shortened pectoral muscles, not over developed ones, which results in the shoulders being pulled forward and the shoulder blades to "wing," not laying flat on the back. The solution to this is not to strengthen the back muscles, but to stretch the pectoral muscles and focus on proper posture.

You should be skeptical of my answer because USMS does not publish articles by me, so how do you know what is the true? Watch an age group practice, and notice the muscle development and posture. Think about your own swimming and where your shoulders would be ideally throughout your stroke vs standing with good posture. Watch college level level swimmers, do they all have over developed backs? All have overdeveloped chests? Would you consider you consider working on your pecs for reasons other than to get faster? Have you ever seen a female swimmer with a muscular back? A muscular chest?

Chris Stevenson
August 14th, 2011, 05:39 PM
Since all the strokes are powered by the back muscles, I would consider discontinuing reading whatever crap source you found that article.

You've been hanging around Jazz a lot, I see. :)

qbrain
August 14th, 2011, 06:53 PM
You've been hanging around Jazz a lot, I see. :)

Feel free to provide support that "For example, swimmers generally have overdeveloped their front bodies (backstrokers may suffer from this less) with strong pectorals. This causes the muscles on the back of the body, specifically those that hold the rhomboids or shoulder blades in place, to become relatively weak."

If you want to take my comment out of context, I agree you have a point. There is more to swimming than a single muscle group.

swimshark
August 14th, 2011, 07:46 PM
Feel free to provide support that "For example, swimmers generally have overdeveloped their front bodies (backstrokers may suffer from this less) with strong pectorals. This causes the muscles on the back of the body, specifically those that hold the rhomboids or shoulder blades in place, to become relatively weak."

If you want to take my comment out of context, I agree you have a point. There is more to swimming than a single muscle group.

When I went to PT for bursitis in the shoulder, I was told most swimmers, especially females, have over developed pec muscles which is why so many swimmers have a bit of a hunch in the shoulder area. I was told to sit with my chest out so work on the hunch and to work on my back muscles more.

Jazz Hands
August 14th, 2011, 08:18 PM
Feel free to provide support that "For example, swimmers generally have overdeveloped their front bodies (backstrokers may suffer from this less) with strong pectorals. This causes the muscles on the back of the body, specifically those that hold the rhomboids or shoulder blades in place, to become relatively weak."

If you want to take my comment out of context, I agree you have a point. There is more to swimming than a single muscle group.

The best part is the backstroke exception. If you're on your back, you must be using your back, because of... back.

qbrain
August 14th, 2011, 09:04 PM
When I went to PT for bursitis in the shoulder, I was told most swimmers, especially females, have over developed pec muscles which is why so many swimmers have a bit of a hunch in the shoulder area. I was told to sit with my chest out so work on the hunch and to work on my back muscles more.

And I am saying that this is incorrect. The problem is a shortened muscle, not an over developed muscle.

If you can't touch your toes, is it because your hamstrings are over developed, or your hamstrings are shortened (lack flexibility/elasticity)? It is possible it is the former and likely the latter.

bud
August 14th, 2011, 11:30 PM
I am not a yoga person and make no judgment about it merits; swimmers that I respect like yoga a lot. But don't these statements seems contradictory?

Here are two articles on yoga on the USMS website:

http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=222

http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=295
Thanks for the article links.

"contradictory"... Yeah... I guess so... thanks for pointing that out. Poor choice of words I reckon.

Chris Stevenson
August 14th, 2011, 11:40 PM
Feel free to provide support that "For example, swimmers generally have overdeveloped their front bodies (backstrokers may suffer from this less) with strong pectorals. This causes the muscles on the back of the body, specifically those that hold the rhomboids or shoulder blades in place, to become relatively weak."

If you want to take my comment out of context, I agree you have a point. There is more to swimming than a single muscle group.

No, I wasn't talking about content at all but tone ("crap source"). And (mostly) joking.

swimshark
August 15th, 2011, 07:50 AM
And I am saying that this is incorrect. The problem is a shortened muscle, not an over developed muscle.

If you can't touch your toes, is it because your hamstrings are over developed, or your hamstrings are shortened (lack flexibility/elasticity)? It is possible it is the former and likely the latter.

I'm just repeating what the PT told me. Swimmers, especially females, have over developed chest muscles that leads to the hunch, which I have. I was given exercises to strengthen the back muscle to pull my shoulders back more. I also can not touch my toes. For me it's that the hamstrings are too short that sadly, I passed on to my son. Even when I was ballet dancing, I could not touch my toes no matter how hard I stretched.

Chris Stevenson
August 16th, 2011, 12:50 PM
NYT article on the benefits -- or not -- of cross-training (not just about swimming):

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/health/16best.html

WRT swimming, Tanaka's statement that only in-water strength training has been found effective is contradicted in a study posted by Jazz in another thread:

http://www.teamunify.com/cseksc/__doc__/EFFECTS%20OF%20DRY-LAND%20VS.%20RESISTED-%20AND.pdf

The NYT article is fine for the most part, though pretty superficial, as is typical for a newspaper article. I did smile at this statement, towards the end:

"he concluded that the only way to prevent running injuries is not to run."

No wonder people sometimes complain about funding scientific research. :)

Jazz Hands
August 16th, 2011, 07:48 PM
NYT article on the benefits -- or not -- of cross-training (not just about swimming):

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/16/health/16best.html

Cross-training should be called Doing the Wrong ****ing Sport.

orca1946
August 17th, 2011, 12:26 AM
Every "study" has another that says an idea that is 180 from the other.

there are lies, damn lies & studies!! :2cents:

Chris Stevenson
August 17th, 2011, 08:22 AM
Cross-training should be called Doing the Wrong ****ing Sport.

Pithy, but a little surprising since you spend about 50% of your time cross-training.


Every "study" has another that says an idea that is 180 from the other.

there are lies, damn lies & studies!! :2cents:

The scientific method is so overrated.

qbrain
August 17th, 2011, 09:54 AM
The scientific method is so overrated.

Well designed studies are too.

sanwin
August 17th, 2011, 04:59 PM
I agree with everyone else,get to the gym and do some cardio. For me this really helps me have great endurance in the pool. Also strength training is benificial as long as you have good technique. Many YMCA have someone who can help you learn the equipment. Also an area that I am lacking is flexibility,so yoga or pilaties would help. I find the older I get I have to work a little harder to maintain for swimming.

Jazz Hands
August 17th, 2011, 07:09 PM
Pithy, but a little surprising since you spend about 50% of your time cross-training.

I don't cross-train.

Chris Stevenson
August 18th, 2011, 06:15 AM
I don't cross-train.

Wearing a speedo, cap and goggles while you lift weights doesn't make it swimming.

jaadams1
August 18th, 2011, 10:46 PM
Wearing a speedo, cap and goggles while you lift weights doesn't make it swimming.

That is funny :rofl:

The Fortress
August 18th, 2011, 10:54 PM
Wearing a speedo, cap and goggles while you lift weights doesn't make it swimming.

I think Jazzy's definition of cross-training excludes things he believes are critical to swimming fast.

Of course, this definition has floodgates potential. :)

Jazz Hands
August 19th, 2011, 07:47 AM
Wearing a speedo, cap and goggles while you lift weights doesn't make it swimming.

I thought that made it more functional :(

Cross-training to me means, well, doing the wrong ****ing sport. Common ones suggested for swimming are: running, biking, rowing, kayaking. These are all pretty similar activities in that they involve endurance in a particular repetitive movement. The repetitive movement is not the one you actually want to improve, and you also are not working on any other qualities besides endurance, which you should get from, you know, swimming. Like Touretski said, more opportunities to practice correct technique.

And I don't know any seriously fast swimmer who has added one of these endurance activities to his or her training and said something to the effect of "Boy, my times really started to drop when I started to do more jumping jacks and less swimming!"

Strength training, on the other hand, is not a sport. It's too broad and vague to be a sport. Which is perfect because it can be designed specifically around the exact qualities lacking from just swim training, and zero irrelevant or redundant activities are needed.

Chris Stevenson
August 19th, 2011, 09:57 AM
Common ones suggested for swimming are: running, biking, rowing, kayaking. These are all pretty similar activities in that they involve endurance in a particular repetitive movement.

I don't agree that these are strictly endurance (aerobic) activities. Have you not seen the legs on pro cyclists? I think they are plenty strong. Of course, cycling, though repetitive like swimming, has a much wider variety of resistance due to hills and the ability to change gears. Doing hill sprints builds plenty of strength and lactate tolerance.

While I think weight-lifting (which is certainly a competitive sport, of course) is great for upper-body power in swimming, I am much less certain of the value of squats, lunges, deadlifts (etc) for improving kicking ability. Starts and turns, yes; kicking, no.

Because of back injuries there have been long stretches of time where I have been unable to do any of those exercises, and there was no effect at all on my kicking ability. And -- to use your own example -- adding them did not suddenly make my kick times drop.

androvski
August 19th, 2011, 12:14 PM
Starts and turns, yes; kicking, no.
This may be true for freestyle, backstroke and butterfly, but my breaststroke has definitely benefited from squats and deadlifts.

The Fortress
August 19th, 2011, 12:30 PM
This may be true for freestyle, backstroke and butterfly, but my breaststroke has definitely benefited from squats and deadlifts.

Not true for fly and back sprints either in my experience. My times have dropped after adding these and other lower body exercises. Also, if you're kicking 10-15 meters underwater, the distinction between turning and kicking is blurred.

swimshark
August 19th, 2011, 12:49 PM
Not true for fly and back sprints either in my experience. My times have dropped after adding these and other lower body exercises. Also, if you're kicking 10-15 meters underwater, the distinction between turning and kicking is blurred.

Although I am no where near Fort's times, I can second what she said. When I started with my current team, I added in their dry land of running, jump ropes, torpedo jumps, etc. And I started dropping time.

Chris Stevenson
August 19th, 2011, 02:27 PM
My times have dropped after adding these and other lower body exercises. Also, if you're kicking 10-15 meters underwater, the distinction between turning and kicking is blurred.

Seems to me (without going back and looking) that you have a lot of confounding factors in your training: increase in various exercises as well as increased use of fins and kicking workouts.

In terms of useful strength training for kicking, I personally would be apt to place fin-work far above anything in the weight room.

I don't quite understand the turning/kicking comment. Pushoff and kicking seem pretty well delineated, and the motions don't seem too similar.

The Fortress
August 19th, 2011, 04:08 PM
Seems to me (without going back and looking) that you have a lot of confounding factors in your training: increase in various exercises as well as increased use of fins and kicking workouts.

In terms of useful strength training for kicking, I personally would be apt to place fin-work far above anything in the weight room.



This is true to a degree. However, I have been kicking and kicking with fins for years and have had to decrease my monofin use in the past year b/c of a foot injury. And my underwaters have improved even more this past year (perhaps the nose clip and plyometrics are at work here -- another confounding factor).

Still, I think the lower body work helped quite a bit. I recall quite distinctly that shortly after I started a more serious weight training program in 2008, at Jazz's urging, I dropped a lot of time. Prior to that, I had never done a squat or deadlift in my life.

qbrain
August 19th, 2011, 04:58 PM
Cross-training to me means, well, doing the wrong ****ing sport.

Strength training, on the other hand, is not a sport.

I like how you redefined two common terms to defend your position. That is thinking outside the box.

Chris Stevenson
August 19th, 2011, 05:33 PM
I like how you redefined two common terms to defend your position. That is thinking outside the box.

It depends what "is" is.

bcoomes
August 21st, 2011, 09:37 PM
I alternate swimming with inline skating. These two activities do not seem to me to be as mutually beneficial as some of those suggested by others, but I enjoy both and each allows me to recover somewhat from the other. Life is too short to do things, at least optional things, that you do not enjoy.

Now if I was an elite skater or swimmer, my perspective would probably be different.

coachnewman17
August 22nd, 2011, 02:39 AM
I am a HS swim coach and also swimmer. Morning before school I have my kids doing p90x. Not all of the different days but Plyo, Chest and Back, Arms and shoulders, legs and back with stretch bands/chords...NO WEIGHTS.

As for myself I am on deployment in the middle east til May and when I can I go 2 a day's...swim and p90x I take advantage of it. That is when I have the opportunity. Sometimes I can't swim and I focus on my cardio. But I have dropped 32 lbs. Went from 257 in May down to 225. I am 6'3" and when I get off deployment I want to be around 215 so I can focus on World Master's games.

AnnG
August 23rd, 2011, 05:53 AM
I am a big fan of my sleep in day.