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geo123
August 14th, 2011, 05:56 AM
So recently my friend recorded me doing some easy laps in a 25 meter pool. I saw that my stroke was not really as good as I thought. Here is a link to it 28072011016 - YouTube (Sorry for the bad quality) . I compared my stroke to people like Cesar cielo , weber gale , Fred bousquet etc. and found out that those strokes are much superior to mine. Plz give me some tips on how to improve the stroke and make it as good as those guys.

geo123
August 14th, 2011, 06:12 AM
I also have a few specific questions :

1) at this speed I am swimming with a front quadrent arm stroke but to do the 50 FR one has to use the rotary arm stroke ( one hand entering the water and the other one almost finished pulling) to reach full speed . So should I always swim with a rotary arm stroke throughout the whole workout or should I do the easier ones FQS and only use the rotary pattern when doing faster stuffs ???? I saw weber gale and cesar cielo using the FQS pattern while doing easier stuffs in some clips. so what do I do ???
2)should I always use a 6 beat kick throughout a whole workout or should I do the 4 beat kick for longer stuffs and 6 beat for faster ones ?? also should i always kick high out of the water even during the slow laps ??? some people told me to kick high all the time but I find that extremely hard , after a couple of laps doing that I am almost out of energy. so guys what can I do ???

ALL your tips will be greatly appreciated. THANKSSSSSSS.

geo123
August 15th, 2011, 02:43 AM
guys........... anyone interested to help ????????????????????

Debugger
August 15th, 2011, 06:03 AM
So recently my friend recorded me doing some easy laps in a 25 meter pool. I saw that my stroke was not really as good as I thought. Here is a link to it 28072011016 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wg3LH4vx0A) (Sorry for the bad quality) . I compared my stroke to people like Cesar cielo , weber gale , Fred bousquet etc. and found out that those strokes are much superior to mine. Plz give me some tips on how to improve the stroke and make it as good as those guys.
It's not really 25m pool, on the video you made 9 strokes when elite swimmers make 11-12.
You are swimming too far from camera and it's impossible to see your catch and pull, try to make another video. The kick seems to be good.
Anyway it isn't very good idea to compare your technique with top swimmers because their technique depends a lot on individual issues. It's better to concentrate on basics rather then on such issues, because you might have different proportions, flexibility strength level etc.

__steve__
August 15th, 2011, 08:37 AM
So should I always swim with a rotary arm stroke throughout the whole workout or should I do the easier ones FQS and only use the rotary pattern when doing faster stuffs ????I am curious too. What style do super fast sprinters use during recovery swims or aerobic workouts, 2 beat kicking?

I do recall a Nystrand video clip of 50M easy. Even though it was 30 seconds or less, he 2 beat kicked, used "FQS", and bilateral pattern

geo123
August 15th, 2011, 09:31 AM
@ Debugger : the size of the pool is actually 25.13 meter. I am sorry to say this but what the hell are you saying man............ There are Top sprint guys who can make 25 meters in this speed in less then 10 strokes for sure. You can find it yourself even in the internet. Anyway you are right about me being too far away from the camera. I will try to make another video. Thanks for the reply anyway.

@ __steve__ : yes that is what I want to know about. thanx.

Debugger
August 15th, 2011, 11:34 AM
@ Debugger : the size of the pool is actually 25.13 meter. I am sorry to say this but what the hell are you saying man............ There are Top sprint guys who can make 25 meters in this speed in less then 10 strokes for sure. You can find it yourself even in the internet. Anyway you are right about me being too far away from the camera. I will try to make another video. Thanks for the reply anyway.

@ __steve__ : yes that is what I want to know about. thanx.
Let's take a look at Alexander Popov (may I consider him a Top sprint guy?) from 0:23 where you can see clearly that he does 12 strokes 3. Приложение Freestyle [en].mp4 - YouTube

geo123
August 15th, 2011, 11:52 AM
@ Debugger : sorry dude you are totally missing the point. Aleksandre popov stroke tempo in that video is lot faster then mine. from what I measured his tempo in that 25 meter was 1.3-1.4 while mine was a lot slower of 1.9 or more and also my glide was longer then his. Anyways how about this one :

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/235100-hawke-talk/183883-the-sprint-free-stroke

You will see cesar cielo filho do a 25 meters in some point in this clip with just 7 strokes and yes I can also do that by slowing down my tempo a bit more.

Speedo
August 15th, 2011, 12:19 PM
@ Debugger : sorry dude you are totally missing the point. Aleksandre popov stroke tempo in that video is lot faster then mine. from what I measured his tempo in that 25 meter was 1.3-1.4 while mine was a lot slower of 1.9 or more and also my glide was longer then his. Anyways how about this one :

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/235100-hawke-talk/183883-the-sprint-free-stroke

You will see cesar cielo filho do a 25 meters in some point in this clip with just 7 strokes and yes I can also do that by slowing down my tempo a bit more.I know for certain that I am missing the point.

So are you trying to swim like the elites do when they are drilling, not racing? All you've stated is that you want to swim like Mr X, Mr. Y and Mr. Z. Sounds like you want to swim perfectly at less than race pace. This is essentially what Popov did in his training and then ramped up the stroke rate. Look at Popov's stroke- it has the same mechanics if you look at the first clip (slow) and the second clip (maybe 100 pace). With him at least, stroke rate is meaningless.

But if stroke rate is so important to you in mimicking the elites, here are some stats from the 2008 Olympic games (Salo, 2008):
50m free stroke rate for top 8: 1.03sec/cycle
100m free stroke rate for top 8: 1.17sec/cycle
200m free stroke rate for top 8: 1.29sec/cycle
1500m free stroke rate for top 8: 1.46sec/cycle

Again, I'm not sure if I'm understanding what your question is, so maybe some clarification is nessecary. Good luck.

geo123
August 15th, 2011, 12:49 PM
@ speedo : Look at my first and second post and you should be able to find what my questions are. I am here to have some answers to those questions not to argue about the size of the pool I swim in. I hope you will give me some suggestions and will not start arguing with me about the pool size. THANX in advance...................................

Speedo
August 15th, 2011, 01:08 PM
@ speedo : Look at my first and second post and you should be able to find what my questions are. I am here to have some answers to those questions not to argue about the size of the pool I swim in. I hope you will give me some suggestions and will not start arguing with me about the pool size. THANX in advance...................................Not to worry- I'm not going to argue about the size of your pool or the size of anything else.

Maybe the reason that you're not getting much of a response is that folks don't know much about your goals- we don't know what you are trying to accomplish (other than looking like some fast swimmers and having similar DPS), and that will largely guide how you prepare for meeting that goal.

So was my assessment correct- are you trying to look good while swimming but not nessecarily go fast, or are you wanting to improve your speed as well? Here's a general response to your questions above:

1) I would practice the rotary arm stroke as much as possible. That said, if you are doing any significant yardage (we do not know what your training is like, btw) you will not be able to do it the whole time without your form falling apart. Do it as much as possible while maintaining proper form. Practicing anything without good form is pointless.
2) Kick as much as you can like you would while executing your goal, whatever that is.

I hope this helps.

geo123
August 15th, 2011, 01:20 PM
@ speedo : THanx a lot for the response. my goal is to swim the 50 free as fast as possible. I currently do the 50 free LCM under 24.6 secs. I am a self taught guy and pretty new to swimming. I want to take swimming a bit more seriously but not sure if I should join a swim team because I have horrible aerobic capacity and coaches usually don't like people like me. So I go to the pool and do pretty much what I feel like doing. But I think I should change that to get faster. So thats pretty much all about me in short. Thanx again for the advice.

Debugger
August 15th, 2011, 01:41 PM
@ speedo : THanx a lot for the response. my goal is to swim the 50 free as fast as possible. I currently do the 50 free LCM under 24.6 secs. I am a self taught guy and pretty new to swimming. I want to take swimming a bit more seriously but not sure if I should join a swim team because I have horrible aerobic capacity and coaches usually don't like people like me. So I go to the pool and do pretty much what I feel like doing. But I think I should change that to get faster. So thats pretty much all about me in short. Thanx again for the advice.
50 free LCM under 24.6 secs is a very good result. I think you should give a try working with a team.
I wonder what is the problem to train aerobic capacity?

Speedo
August 15th, 2011, 01:45 PM
@ speedo : THanx a lot for the response. my goal is to swim the 50 free as fast as possible. I currently do the 50 free LCM under 24.6 secs. I am a self taught guy and pretty new to swimming. I want to take swimming a bit more seriously but not sure if I should join a swim team because I have horrible aerobic capacity and coaches usually don't like people like me. So I go to the pool and do pretty much what I feel like doing. But I think I should change that to get faster. So thats pretty much all about me in short. Thanx again for the advice.That helps. You may want to find a team/coach and talk to them about your situation. I don't think that training on your own is a bad idea, but you may find someone who can give you constant feedback on your stroke, and have you do drills and quality work while the other people on the team are doing aerobic stuff. It may be tough to find a place like this, but if you have to train solo that's not a bad thing either. A few of the faster sprinters on this forum train solo almost exclusively for the reasons you cite, so you are not alone.

Slight revision of my answers;
1) Do as much rotary as you can with plenty of rest between efforts. Slow rotary drills are good, but you also want to do some fast swimming to get used to going at speed. But you don't have to/want to do it all the time- when warming up/down just do whatever you feel like, but when you doing the tough stuff, use the rotary.
2) I assume you use a 6 beat kick during your race, so do it perfectly when doing the tough stuff- same advice as above. Practice how you will race.

orca1946
August 15th, 2011, 02:23 PM
If you can swim that time on your own, join a team & have a coach to really speed up your learning & time.

taruky
August 15th, 2011, 05:10 PM
I can pretty much guarantee you that there is little to nothing from that footage which can be used to improve upon a 24.6 LCM 50. There were no glaring problems that I could see, but that's not saying much.

One, the footage is way too low quality. Two, we are not seeing you sprint. There are people who can have beautiful form while swimming relaxed but it falls apart in a sprint. Three, an underwater view would be helpful.

If you are swimming a 24.6 as a self-taught swimmer, kudos to you. You must be a natural. With fine tweaking by a good coach you should be OK.

That pool, by the way, looks awfully familiar. Didn't someone else post video at that same pool a few months ago?

rtodd
August 15th, 2011, 07:46 PM
stroke looked nice to me. I think, at least for me, as my tempo changes I go with more catch up on easier swimming. I think as your kick increases, you don't need front quadrant as much to maintain a flat body position in the water and you can go with more "rotary".

Get on a team. A 24.6 is darn good.

geo123
August 16th, 2011, 09:40 AM
@ debugger : First of all I am sorry if I had been rude before. Anyway I also think 24.6 is not too bad. Couple of months ago I tried to swim with a team. The coach was constantly criticising me for my aerobic capacity. He just talked about my negative sides in swimming in a very negative way. It discouraged me. He and also other coaches always told me that 50 FR is not a real race and it was very stupid for me to do it only. They wanted me to do the 100 and other distances. I couldn't stand those things.There is not really any problem working on my aerobic capacity but when I used to work on it with that team I was constantly falling a loooooooot behind them and it was very discouraging. The people that I trained with were in a far better aerobic condition then me so it was THE problem. But hey thanx for the encouragement.

@speedo : The most important thing that I found in swimming is that one has to be very veryyyyy consistent in training to keep on improving and I definitely lack consistency. I wish I had some supportive guys around to help me go to where I want to go. I definitely Believe that I can be a lot faster than this. Thank you for your tips.

@orca1946 : you know I believe swimming 24.5- 25.5 is not very difficult but after that things get a lot complicated. One has to work consistently under a coach to keep on improving. Thank you for the response.

@taruky : I think you are right. The stroke in the video and the stroke that I use in sprints are completely different. Thank you for your appriciation but I am yet to find a coach that is suitable for me and about the pool......... I don't know if anybody else here swim in this because it was a hotel pool.

Rtodd : Thank you for your nice words and tips. I tried to get on a team but that didn't work out well.

geo123
August 16th, 2011, 09:44 AM
guys another question here..........

What kind of training is really required to swim very fast in the 50 FR ? Does one have to do 10k or more a day at least or is it something else ?
Is it stupid to swim just the 50 free and nothing else ??? Should I train for the 100 Fr ??????

Debugger
August 16th, 2011, 10:31 AM
guys another question here..........

What kind of training is really required to swim very fast in the 50 FR ? Does one have to do 10k or more a day at least or is it something else ?
Is it stupid to swim just the 50 free and nothing else ??? Should I train for the 100 Fr ??????
Man, I know that some middle distance and stayers swim 10k IMO sprinters who do 50 and 100 don't need that much. Even 3k a day can be sufficient to train aerobic capacity for 100m.

Sad to hear that coach was telling that :-( Keep on looking for different one.
You may try this to increase your aerobic capacity - http://ruthkazez.com/SwimWorkouts/ZeroTo1mile.html
I'm sure that adding 100m can improve your 50 as well.

__steve__
August 16th, 2011, 05:56 PM
He and also other coaches always told me that 50 FR is not a real race and it was very stupid for me to do it only. Whether the 50 is or isn't a real event, the truth remains, when the sprinting events start and the fast seeds are up it definately starts getting spectacular to watch.

geo 123:
Man, thanks for the popov vid link! I never seen that one. After watching the flowswimming with Cielio it is quite obvious the sprint free stroke has evolved much

Debugger
August 17th, 2011, 05:59 AM
geo123, I'm sure there are good sprinters teams. Here's one of them - http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/271-weekly-wednesday-workout/79981-auburn-sprint-set
Very inspiring! :)