PDA

View Full Version : Wetsuit vs Non-Wetsuit Awards



TobySwims
August 30th, 2011, 03:25 PM
I organized a swim recently and we had non-wetsuit and wetsuit categories. I'm fine with accommodating wetsuits for open water swimming. However, the challenge comes up in the awards portion. Should wetsuit swimmers be entitled to the exact same type of awards as non-wetsuit swimmers? The problem this poses as an organizer is that suddenly you need to purchase twice the number of awards to accommodate a separate division (wetsuit), even though everyone's swimming the same race.

What might be fair for next time (learning as I go) is to award the top 3 male/female non-wetsuit swimmers for each event, but just the #1 male and female in the wetsuit category for each event. They at least get acknowledged for their efforts.

Curious if anyone else has thoughts on this.

ChrisM
August 30th, 2011, 05:43 PM
I think if you award for naked you have to award for suited if you offer it as a second category (well, you don't HAVE to do anything), and I can see how that would get unwieldy and/or more expensive.

Does everyone start together? If so, it would not be uncommon to have a rule that says wetsuit wearers not eligible for awards. If that's the rule going in, then everyone knows. If you just do #1 for suits and 1-3 for nakeds, people that are 2-3 suits may wonder why they aren't getting awards. I know that also would be a rule going in, but people get weird at races about awards and such.

Last race I did someone posted on active that they came in third in AG (out of 6 :^) , they had never heard of awards for first place only (as the athlete's guide clearly stated), and wanted the organizers to mail them an award.....

knelson
August 31st, 2011, 10:42 AM
Should wetsuit swimmers be entitled to the exact same type of awards as non-wetsuit swimmers?

I don't think it's absolutely necessary, but be certain to highlight this in the entry info if wetsuit swimmers won't be receiving the same awards. Everyone says they don't care about the awards--that is until they get shafted! :)


What might be fair for next time (learning as I go) is to award the top 3 male/female non-wetsuit swimmers for each event, but just the #1 male and female in the wetsuit category for each event. They at least get acknowledged for their efforts.

Seems reasonable to me.

orca1946
September 1st, 2011, 12:37 AM
Maybe - medals for jammers & ribbons for wetsuits?? :afraid:

Bobinator
September 1st, 2011, 11:42 AM
You can do whatever you want, just make it very clear on the entry form. Google "Big Shoulder's" entry form. They make it clear that there will be multiple awards in age groups for naked 5K swimmers. All other races (2.5K, and wetsuits in 2.5K and 5K) will recognize the over-all winner only. No one can complain if it is all spelled out on the entry form!

orca1946
September 2nd, 2011, 01:11 AM
WAIT !! The 2.5 k only has one award ??????? is that per age group ??

lapswimmr
September 3rd, 2011, 08:49 PM
Yes the same. As it was said make it clear on the entry what awards there will be. It really has nothing to do with being fair wet suit or not, It is a fact that without a wetsuit it is harder to swim and a slower time may be had. That fact can be advertised on the entry or information about the event so spectators or media know and can give a nod of respect to the non wetsuited swimmers for there increased effort.

Open water swimming needs to allow for wetsuits to thrive as a sport to bring as many people out there as possible.

Open water swimming will be a major Olymipic event in time. probably with non wetsuit races.

orca1946
September 22nd, 2011, 10:57 PM
I read that now ? ! With the cost of entry , I just think they could have spent another $100 to get more awards.

chaos
September 30th, 2011, 07:47 AM
Open water swimming needs to allow for wetsuits to thrive as a sport to bring as many people out there as possible.

Open water swimming will be a major Olymipic event in time. probably with non wetsuit races.

The '08 olympic 10k was held in a rowing basin, and '12 will be in the serpentine. neither venue does justice to the phrase "open water". i doubt that any major network will have complete live coverage. the serp is a bit chilly, so i expect that wetsuits will be worn.

aquageek
September 30th, 2011, 09:06 AM
The '08 olympic 10k was held in a rowing basin, and '12 will be in the serpentine. neither venue does justice to the phrase "open water".

You got that right. It seems to me that to be open water it should present some of the things that make open water exciting. The Serpentine is a city park lake so the only obstacle I saw was a lot of ducks, and their poo.

Chris Stevenson
September 30th, 2011, 12:50 PM
the only obstacle I saw was a lot of ducks

Don't disrespect the duck. We have a few with quite an uppity attitude in our university lake.

And don't get me started on the Canadian geese. I wouldn't want to swim through them; they routinely chase people off the sidewalk. And there are several curious and unexplained muggings at night near the lake...

Chris Stevenson
September 30th, 2011, 12:53 PM
Should wetsuit swimmers be entitled to the exact same type of awards as non-wetsuit swimmers? The problem this poses as an organizer is that suddenly you need to purchase twice the number of awards to accommodate a separate division (wetsuit), even though everyone's swimming the same race.

IMO: same awards. Don't wetsuit wearers pay the same entry fee as the "naked" swimmers?

But I don't feel strongly about it. I agree with the others, whatever you do advertise it on your race entry forms. (But I disagree that then people won't complain. Anyone can complain about anything.)

dadis
September 30th, 2011, 05:14 PM
Maybe this is a new idea...

The event is open to wetsuits and "naked", with one set of rewards. There is a catch. The wetsuits cannot be put on the swimmers body until after the starting gun. (no help allowed from non-participants)

aztimm
September 30th, 2011, 07:18 PM
Maybe - medals for jammers & ribbons for wetsuits?? :afraid:

For most of the NYC swim series, jammers aren't allowed:


For the Swim Series: When the water temperature is 68F (20C) or higher, only swimmers wearing traditional-style swim suits will be eligible for awards. A traditional-style swim suit is one that is made of a porous material, is sleeveless, and is legless. Women may wear suits that come up to their necks, with the zipper up the back. Men may not wear jammers (since they are not legless) or suits that cover their torsos. Any suit that extends to the thighs or shoulders, reduces drag in the water, increases buoyancy, or improves heat-retention is considered non-traditional. Suits in the non-traditional category (which means they affect award eligibility) include jammers of any type; Speedo LZR Racer, Speedo Aquablade, Speedo FS II, Speedo Fastskin, TYR Aqua Shift, TYR Aquapel, TYR Fusion2, Nike Liftsuit, blue seventy zeropoint3, and suits with similar materials. When the water temperature is below 68F, all swimmers will be eligible for awards, regardless of whether they wear a traditional swim suit or wetsuit.

http://www.nycswim.org/About/FAQ.aspx#6

jaadams1
September 30th, 2011, 11:24 PM
For most of the NYC swim series, jammers aren't allowed:



http://www.nycswim.org/About/FAQ.aspx#6


I don't really care for OW swimming that much, but those NYC OW rules for swim suits are just ridiculous!!

chaos
October 1st, 2011, 12:26 AM
I don't really care for OW swimming that much, but those NYC OW rules for swim suits are just ridiculous!!

many of the people who work the events are volunteers. it would be unreasonable to have everyone familiar with the different models of tech suits (yes they were also produced as jammers), but easy enough to differentiate between a brief and a jammer. blame it on the suit manufacturers not the event organizers who are trying to maintain a (sea) level playing field.

thewookiee
October 1st, 2011, 07:24 AM
many of the people who work the events are volunteers. it would be unreasonable to have everyone familiar with the different models of tech suits (yes they were also produced as jammers), but easy enough to differentiate between a brief and a jammer. blame it on the suit manufacturers not the event organizers who are trying to maintain a (sea) level playing field.

If they followed the fina guidelines where jammers had to have the fina 2010 logo on it, then it wouldn't be hard to know which suits weren't illegal jammers.

I agree with James, not allowing jammers for men is a silly rule

chaos
October 1st, 2011, 09:18 AM
If they followed the fina guidelines where jammers had to have the fina 2010 logo on it, then it wouldn't be hard to know which suits weren't illegal jammers.

there is a higher standard than FINA

thewookiee
October 1st, 2011, 09:27 AM
there is a higher standard than FINA

yea,yea, yea, that sounds like an open water snob. There is nothing wrong with letting guys wear jammers in pool or open water races dave.

chaos
October 1st, 2011, 09:55 AM
yea,yea, yea, that sounds like an open water snob. There is nothing wrong with letting guys wear jammers in pool or open water races dave.

for your own events, you are welcome to establish any rules you like. we allow jammers for 8 bridges so your snobbery charge is off target (in this instance)... but with only a few swimmers for each stage, its easy to keep tech suits out.

evmo
October 1st, 2011, 10:11 AM
blame it on the suit manufacturers not the event organizers who are trying to maintain a (sea) level playing field.

Ironic that someone brings up the NYC Swim policy... seems to me, the relevant issue in the context of this thread is not jammers vs. briefs, but the fact that wetsuits aren't distinguished from skins in the results (in water 68F or below).

So I get Dave's point about a level playing field - but only in the narrow sense.

mjtyson
October 3rd, 2011, 11:59 AM
The '08 olympic 10k was held in a rowing basin, and '12 will be in the serpentine. neither venue does justice to the phrase "open water". i doubt that any major network will have complete live coverage. the serp is a bit chilly, so i expect that wetsuits will be worn.

Chaos, don't you think the '12 Olympics will follow FINA and not allow wetsuits in the 10K?

KatieK
October 3rd, 2011, 12:05 PM
Chaos, don't you think the '12 Olympics will follow FINA and not allow wetsuits in the 10K?
Right?!?! Maybe he's talking about the Special Olympics?

Chicken of the Sea
October 3rd, 2011, 01:47 PM
The '08 olympic 10k was held in a rowing basin, and '12 will be in the serpentine. neither venue does justice to the phrase "open water". i doubt that any major network will have complete live coverage. the serp is a bit chilly, so i expect that wetsuits will be worn.

Can I "like" this comment? next they'll be putting a bloody lane line in.

chaos
October 3rd, 2011, 05:35 PM
Chaos, don't you think the '12 Olympics will follow FINA and not allow wetsuits in the 10K?

the serp will likely be under 60 degrees.

i doubt they will be wearing briefs... pros don't like being chilly.

Chicken of the Sea
October 3rd, 2011, 06:19 PM
the serp will likely be under 60 degrees.

i doubt they will be wearing briefs... pros don't like being chilly.

it's really that cold even in summer? I was in london over summer 08 and saw people swimming there but just couldn't bring myself to get in. So much duck and goose poo and slimy stuff.

evmo
October 3rd, 2011, 08:25 PM
the serp will likely be under 60 degrees.

i doubt they will be wearing briefs... pros don't like being chilly.

The UK, despite being the birthplace of "channel rules," does have a tradition of wetsuited pro OW swims, e.g. the British Gas Great Swim Series. So it wouldn't surprise me if the Olympics are wetsuited, though it would disappoint me.

evmo
October 4th, 2011, 01:03 PM
OK, hope this settle things re: wetsuits in the Olympics. I asked someone who would know, and he pointed me to the FINA bylaws, section 8 (http://www.fina.org/H2O/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=273:bl-8-swimwear&catid=81:by-laws&Itemid=184).

In particular, section 8.4:


From June 1, 2010 Open Water swimwear for both men and women shall not cover the neck, extend past the shoulder, nor shall extend below the ankle. All Open Water swimsuits shall comply with the FINA Criteria for Materials and Approval Procedures.

In other words, they can wear textile bodysuits, but not wetsuits.

orca1946
October 4th, 2011, 06:54 PM
fina - fima = ilfitting +illogical :worms::2cents:

chaos
October 4th, 2011, 08:16 PM
Evmo - the link within your link 29 page FRSA pdf (http://www.fina.org/H2O/docs/rules/FRSA.pdf) seems to allow neoprene caps, but its probably mute as I expect the serps will be in the upper 60's.

i've swum in the serp only twice.... 9/3/10, and 9/20/09. both times the water was below 60.

chaos
October 4th, 2011, 09:31 PM
looks like in order to "search within a thread" you need to be registered, which i am.


just emailed a friend who is a board member of the serp club.... i'll post his response when i receive it.

chaos
October 6th, 2011, 09:03 AM
so it does seem that the serp temp follows a rather predictable sine curve. i am glad that my swims there have been on cooler days.

i think all the fowl poop concerns are overblown.

Chicken of the Sea
October 6th, 2011, 11:30 AM
I was a little peeved at the Nubble Light swim this year when I realised at the awards that wetsuits had age group awards and nakeds only had one overall awards in each gender. I thought I was the only naked woman but lo and behold someone must have changed divisions at the last moment and beat be by about 2 minutes.....:bolt:

orca1946
October 13th, 2011, 05:15 PM
Do they take the temps in the same spot each year?

Cleon
December 24th, 2011, 08:19 AM
When I was younger cold water was not a problem. I went into water that had ice on top without a Wet Suit. I worked out in very cold water. Now I am almost 70 years old and still working out. I found THE OLDER YOU ARE THE COLDER YOU ARE. As you get older you will also experience this. I will be swimming the Alcatraz Island swim in July water temp around 60 with a wet suit this year.

For me it is not the ribin that counts it is I DID IT I still can. This is something I want to do until I cannot any more. Remember you will be 70 some day too, and may want to do open water events. Don't let the cold keep you away.

FindingMyInnerFish
December 24th, 2011, 09:57 AM
I was a little peeved at the Nubble Light swim this year when I realised at the awards that wetsuits had age group awards and nakeds only had one overall awards in each gender. I thought I was the only naked woman but lo and behold someone must have changed divisions at the last moment and beat be by about 2 minutes.....:bolt:

That definitely seems backward! If they're going to have separate awards, I'd think they should acknowledge the greater challenge the greater challenge of not wearing a wetsuit!

My experience: don't own a wetsuit and haven't ever used one (even just to try them out). No OW swim I've ever done was cold enough for me to feel I'd need one, and in some, I figured I'd be too warm in a wetsuit. In one swim, the water temp was said to be in the 60s (it didn't seem that cold except in pockets here and there) but it was such a hot day, I actually welcomed the cooler water temp.

In all the o.w. events I've been in (far fewer than many of you), there was no distinction between wetsuits and "naked" for awards either in age group or overall. Didn't much matter to me. In the larger races, I'm not fast enough for awards either way, and in smaller ones, my age group is sparsely enough populated that I manage to get awards by default (3rd out of ... whattyaknow--three!).

I won't say I'll never get or use a wetsuit, but given how constricting I've heard people say they are, I'm not in any hurry to get one. I like the freedom of just being in a swimsuit.

The aquathlon I plan on in June--an NYCSwim event--has the above-mentioned rules about briefs/jammers/wetsuits only for those doing just the swim; those doing the aquathlon will be allowed to wear wetsuits and such if the water temp is below a certain cut-off (I forget what that is). They say they follow USAT rules for the swim/run.

However, I don't plan to take advantage of the latitude given to those in the aquathlon. I doubt I'll need a wetsuit, plus I think it'll be an easier swim/run transition w/out fighting my way out of one.

As for awards, announce the policy in advance, and it should reduce, but likely won't eliminate complaints. But at least people will be informed and can choose to enter/not enter. And if they enter and complain, you can always point to the entry info and tell them to take a :chillpill: