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Celestial
September 20th, 2011, 07:21 PM
Does anyone know how to gauge the percentage of effort expended in relationship to your HR? We had a set yesterday morning that got me thinking, and I am really having trouble wrapping my brain around this one. If your fastest time in the 100 free is 1:00, then what should 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% effort be (time wise?)? And also, since I know that your maximal HR should be (theoretically) 220 minus your age, at what HR are you going certain percentages of effort? I was swimming 5 x 100's on the 1:30 & going what I thought was about 60% effort and holding 1:16-1:18 - which was slower than I intended but the girl in front of me was going even slower, so I had to pull back - HR was about 110. Second set was to be of course, faster/harder (coach said 1st 5 HR 140ish, 2nd 5 HR 160ish - for the 15 yr olds) I held about 1:14's & my HR got near to 140, I think - but my effort felt closer to 80%. Gauging your effort is HARD! - thus I think if there was a nice little mathematical formula it would help! The only problem is, I KNOW that often an increase in effort often only results in a second or two drop/100. So, any genius's out there who can help me out?

Celestial
September 20th, 2011, 08:00 PM
And ALSO - if your current fastest time is say 1:05 in the 100, but you do repeats holding a 1:10 - what percentage of effort do you think you are expending on the repeats? Obviously less on the first one than you will on #10, but, just wondering.

bcoomes
September 20th, 2011, 08:34 PM
The 220-age formula for heart rate is not terribly accurate, at least in my case. I do a lot of inline skating wearing a heart rate monitor and in the past three years, the highest reliable maximum heart rate I've observed has been about 155 bpm. I am 51, so that is a bit lower than the 220-age formula gives, but I am fairly confident that 155 is at least close to my maximum HR. My resting HR (just waking up in the morning, still in bed) was 47 the last I checked. So the formula I would use to compute the percentage of maximum HR is

(HR-47)/(155-47) x (100%).

Is that my percentage of maximum effort? Not sure about that.

So you need to figure out your maximum HR (MaxHR), your resting HR (RHR). and replace 155 with MaxHR and 47 with RHR in the formula above. I suppose you could use 220-age for MaxHR until you get a good handle on your actual MaxHR.

steinfaust
September 20th, 2011, 10:37 PM
I wish I had an answer for you and am interested to see what people have to say.

I have a pretty low heart rate. In the morning I'm high 30s-low 40s, and it takes dry land plyo work, running for time, or sprinting in the pool to hit 160.

I feel like pool heart rates are lower than dry land heart rates, with equal effort. Maybe the cooling factor plus the breathing factor?

I've also observed that after a 100 from rest my heart rate seems to keep accelerating for a few seconds after I stop swimming before it recovers.

wnt2bfst
September 20th, 2011, 11:32 PM
wow! I have a hard enough time keeping track of what lap I am on when just swimming 6 lengths in my little pool pond. And did I start when the big hand was on the 15 or 30. Sometimes i just can't remember. Maybe that is why I can't break the 1 min 100.

bcoomes
September 21st, 2011, 08:20 AM
And ALSO - if your current fastest time is say 1:05 in the 100, but you do repeats holding a 1:10 - what percentage of effort do you think you are expending on the repeats? Obviously less on the first one than you will on #10, but, just wondering.
Depends on the person. For me that would probably be impossible (110% effort?) while for a distance person it might be 80% effort. That is one reason for using heart rate to measure effort, it bypasses a few physiological differences.

knelson
September 21st, 2011, 10:43 AM
If your fastest time in the 100 free is 1:00, then what should 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% effort be (time wise?)?

I think perceived effort is going to vary person-to-person, so it's difficult to say. To me, 60% means really slow. You should feel like you're really holding back. 70% is a little faster, maybe around the pace you could hold for a long swim like a T-30 or something. 80% should be faster than this and 90% is just a hair off your maximum effort.

Forget about formulas for max HR. Just swim an all-out 100 and take your pulse immediately after. That's going to be darn close to your maximum heart rate.

ande
September 21st, 2011, 11:34 AM
Does anyone know how to gauge the percentage of effort expended in relationship to your HR?
Not really, coaches often assign sets with
??% effort
I gauge my effort by feel and time, how hard I pull & how I kick. how hard it feels and how hard I'm breathing
Also if you're swimming next to swimmers of similar ability, hang with them.

If your fastest time in the 100 free is 1:00,
then what should 60%, 70%, 80%, 90% effort be (time wise?)?
It depends

060% very easy, 2 beat kick, maybe
1:25 - 1:30

070% easy, pick up turn over a little, 2 beat kick
1:20 - 1:25

080% easy speed, still 2 beat kick,
1:15. - 1:20

090% strong but not all out
1:10 - 1:15

100% go as fast as you can but correctly split, race
1:05 - 1:10

also there's effort levels for particular sets,
sometimes coaches say go "all out" but then
don't allow enough rest to really go ALL ALL out
so you set your speed and effort based on what you're doing now and what's to come.


Effort depends on the specifics of each set
Rounds
Repeats
Distances
Effort levels
Rest between repeats and rounds
Special instructions: like
4 SDKs off each wall, or 6 beat kick the whole way, or 4 breaths per length

nkfrench
September 21st, 2011, 01:25 PM
The formulas can be very inaccurate. The 220-age has me at max 165, I can average higher than that for a couple of hours. I hit 187 HR under right conditions.

All-out effort will not necessarily hit your max heart rate

I would interpret your desire and ability to talk between repeats as a good indicator of % effort. My personal guidelines:

90% - nod or single words, not necessarily coherent
80% - a few words with pauses
70% - phrases/sentence
60% - yack

gaash
September 21st, 2011, 03:07 PM
cant find the link right now but there was a recent study that suggested that HR monitors are useless and how you feel is a much better judge of your exertion than your heart rate per minute.

That Guy
September 21st, 2011, 03:13 PM
cant find the link right now but there was a recent study that suggested that HR monitors are useless and how you feel is a much better judge of your exertion than your heart rate per minute.

˙ɟןǝsʎɯ pǝuıɐɹʇǝɹ ʎןʍoןs puɐ ɹɐǝʎ ɐ ʇnoqɐ ɹoɟ ɯɹɥ uɐ pǝsn ı os ˙081-071 ǝq pןnoʍ ǝsןnd ʎɯ ʇnq 'ǝɔɐd ʎsɐǝ buıuunɹ sɐʍ ı ʞuıɥʇ pןnoʍ ı ˙ɟɟo ʎɐɐɐɐʍ sɐʍ ı 'buıuunɹ uǝɥʍ ʇnq 'uo ʇods ɥɔnɯ ʎʇʇǝɹd sɐʍ buıןɔʎɔ puɐ buıɯɯıʍs buıɹnp uoıʇɹǝxǝ pǝʌıǝɔɹǝd ʎɯ ʇɐɥʇ pǝɹǝʌoɔsıp ı 'sʎɐp ıɹʇ ʎɯ uı ʞɔɐq ˙spuǝdǝp

ElaineK
September 21st, 2011, 03:20 PM
˙ɟןǝsʎɯ pǝuıɐɹʇǝɹ ʎןʍoןs puɐ ɹɐǝʎ ɐ ʇnoqɐ ɹoɟ ɯɹɥ uɐ pǝsn ı os ˙081-071 ǝq pןnoʍ ǝsןnd ʎɯ ʇnq 'ǝɔɐd ʎsɐǝ buıuunɹ sɐʍ ı ʞuıɥʇ pןnoʍ ı ˙ɟɟo ʎɐɐɐɐʍ sɐʍ ı 'buıuunɹ uǝɥʍ ʇnq 'uo ʇods ɥɔnɯ ʎʇʇǝɹd sɐʍ buıןɔʎɔ puɐ buıɯɯıʍs buıɹnp uoıʇɹǝxǝ pǝʌıǝɔɹǝd ʎɯ ʇɐɥʇ pǝɹǝʌoɔsıp ı 'sʎɐp ıɹʇ ʎɯ uı ʞɔɐq ˙spuǝdǝp


Geeez, That Guy; you have me working too hard on this one! :bouncing:

That Guy
September 21st, 2011, 03:37 PM
Geeez, That Guy; you have me working too hard on this one! :bouncing:

˙ʇıq ɐ dn sbuıɥʇ ǝbuɐɥɔ oʇ ʇuɐʍ ʇɥbıɯ ɟןǝsɹnoʎ ǝʞıן ɹǝʞoɹʇsʇsɐǝɹq ɐ ʇnq 'ǝʇnuıɯ ɐ uo spɐǝɹɥʇ 3 ɟo sʇɐǝdǝɹ ʇsǝɹ-ʇɹoɥs ǝʞıן buıɥʇǝɯos ɹoɟ ʇooɥs ʎןןɐnsn ı ˙ǝʞoɹʇs pǝɹɹǝɟǝɹd puɐ ǝɔɐd ɹnoʎ oʇ sןɐʌɹǝʇuı ǝɥʇ ʇsnظpɐ sʎɐʍןɐ uɐɔ noʎ ˙ǝןqɐzıɯoʇsnɔ ǝɹɐ sʇnoʞɹoʍ ɯnɹoɟ

ElaineK
September 21st, 2011, 03:45 PM
˙ʇıq ɐ dn sbuıɥʇ ǝbuɐɥɔ oʇ ʇuɐʍ ʇɥbıɯ ɟןǝsɹnoʎ ǝʞıן ɹǝʞoɹʇsʇsɐǝɹq ɐ ʇnq 'ǝʇnuıɯ ɐ uo spɐǝɹɥʇ 3 ɟo sʇɐǝdǝɹ ʇsǝɹ-ʇɹoɥs ǝʞıן buıɥʇǝɯos ɹoɟ ʇooɥs ʎןןɐnsn ı ˙ǝʞoɹʇs pǝɹɹǝɟǝɹd puɐ ǝɔɐd ɹnoʎ oʇ sןɐʌɹǝʇuı ǝɥʇ ʇsnظpɐ sʎɐʍןɐ uɐɔ noʎ ˙ǝןqɐzıɯoʇsnɔ ǝɹɐ sʇnoʞɹoʍ ɯnɹoɟ

:censor: :bolt: :D

knelson
September 21st, 2011, 03:49 PM
081-071 ǝq pןnoʍ ǝsןnd ʎɯ ʇnq


08I-0ŁI ǝqʎɐɯ

lefty
September 21st, 2011, 04:29 PM
I feel like pool heart rates are lower than dry land heart rates, with equal effort. Maybe the cooling factor plus the breathing factor?


Cooling and breathing are two factors, but I think the largest factor is horizontal body position.

Celestial
September 21st, 2011, 07:16 PM
The formulas can be very inaccurate. The 220-age has me at max 165, I can average higher than that for a couple of hours. I hit 187 HR under right conditions.

All-out effort will not necessarily hit your max heart rate

I would interpret your desire and ability to talk between repeats as a good indicator of % effort. My personal guidelines:

90% - nod or single words, not necessarily coherent
80% - a few words with pauses
70% - phrases/sentence
60% - yack

I like this!! I've also noticed that when I work so hard I am slightly hypoxic, I can verify it with that lovely tingling feeling in the top of my thighs, What I also find interesting is the amount of improvement associated with increases in percentage of effort is kinda like a geometric progression in reverse (32-16-8-4-2-1). I was kinda hoping that maybe I could improve more quickly if I trained more correctly - which means that a person ought to be able to figure out what their 80-90% effort is currently (time wise) and that by forcing themselves to train at higher levels, that after a while, the time that once took 90% effort, would only require 80% effort. By gauging what that time is, we might be more accurately able to predict how much we have improved - even without the benefit of a meet - sometimes I need little bit of proof of improvement long before a meet comes around!

Thanks for all your input! :blush:

Celestial
September 21st, 2011, 07:18 PM
˙ʇıq ɐ dn sbuıɥʇ ǝbuɐɥɔ oʇ ʇuɐʍ ʇɥbıɯ ɟןǝsɹnoʎ ǝʞıן ɹǝʞoɹʇsʇsɐǝɹq ɐ ʇnq 'ǝʇnuıɯ ɐ uo spɐǝɹɥʇ 3 ɟo sʇɐǝdǝɹ ʇsǝɹ-ʇɹoɥs ǝʞıן buıɥʇǝɯos ɹoɟ ʇooɥs ʎןןɐnsn ı ˙ǝʞoɹʇs pǝɹɹǝɟǝɹd puɐ ǝɔɐd ɹnoʎ oʇ sןɐʌɹǝʇuı ǝɥʇ ʇsnظpɐ sʎɐʍןɐ uɐɔ noʎ ˙ǝןqɐzıɯoʇsnɔ ǝɹɐ sʇnoʞɹoʍ ɯnɹoɟ

Man Guy - you are making my brain work [almost] as hard as my body! And it's nice that workouts ar customizable - even with a coach on deck - one can always kinda mix it up in your head to make it more fun/challenging.

Karl_S
September 21st, 2011, 08:47 PM
My personal guidelines:

90% - nod or single words, not necessarily coherent
80% - a few words with pauses
70% - phrases/sentence
60% - yack
This is classic. At first it made me laugh, but upon reflection it seems like a very good way to quantify effort. It should be posted next to the white board where the workouts are written. Thanks for sharing.

knelson
September 22nd, 2011, 12:32 AM
I guess 100% is also "yack" just a different definition.