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TinaA
October 5th, 2011, 02:07 PM
Anyone know how swimmers were chosen/ applied for the High Performance Camp? I remember seeing something about this several years ago and if I remember right there were a very limited amount of spaces and the selection was based on your times/ top 10 places.
Just curious. From the article it sounded like a great opportunity and a lot of fun.

thewookiee
October 5th, 2011, 02:36 PM
Anyone know how swimmers were chosen/ applied for the High Performance Camp? I remember seeing something about this several years ago and if I remember right there were a very limited amount of spaces and the selection was based on your times/ top 10 places.
Just curious. From the article it sounded like a great opportunity and a lot of fun.

Anyone interested had to fille out an application. Swimmers were chosen from based on information in the application.

I filled one out for the event and was selected to attend. I decided against attending because of the responses that I recieved from the hosting group.

In early June, I ask for a list of coaches and a daily schedule for the week. I was told that they were finishing-up the coaches list and schedule. The next day, I had email from the hosting group asking me to confirm my attendance by the end of that day. I thought that was a little pushy to ask for a response on the sameday as the email was sent out for an event in late august.

By the middle of june, I still hadn't seen a copy of the schedule or the coaches list. Yes, the head coaches was Kerry O'Brian and Craig Keller from Asphalt Green. Both of them are great but I wanted to see the list of supporting coaches because the they really make the difference in how successful a camp is for a swimmer.

Around that time, I also had an email from the hosting group reminding me that half the deposit was due by June 30th. I responded to the email asking for the coaches list and daily schedule again. This time I got no response.

At the end of june, they sent out another email to the selected group reminding them of when the money was due. Since they hadn't provided any more information about how the weeks events were going to be broken down, I decided against attneding the camp.

IMO, the event hosts were pushy about wanting their money but not responsive in supplying information.

If USMS wants to do this event yearly, having information ready before asking for $1800 or half of it would be greatly appreciated.

Yes, I did send my thoughts to the event host about why I wasn't going to attend but go no response from them.

lefty
October 5th, 2011, 02:46 PM
If USMS wants to do this event yearly, having information ready before asking for $1800 or half of it would be greatly appreciated.


Are you kidding me? My tri team is putting on a three day event with a former Olympian and his personal coaches for only $200. I suppose hotel was included in the price? Wow.

thewookiee
October 5th, 2011, 03:01 PM
Are you kidding me? My tri team is putting on a three day event with a former Olympian and his personal coaches for only $200. I suppose hotel was included in the price? Wow.

I believe the hotel was included in the price, the doubletree.

Glenn
October 5th, 2011, 04:52 PM
I attended the camp and yes all meals, hotel, transportation to and from the hotel and to and from the pool was included.

The coaches were top notch! Kerry O'brien has been coaching Masters since 1980 and is a level 5 ASCA coach. He is very knowledgeable and very good. Craig Keller is young but also very knowledgeable (he was an assistant coach with Kerry and with Stu Kahn). He chairs the USMS coaches committee. Stu Kahn has been coaching for 40 years at the club level, junior college, college, age group and the last three years Masters. He also is very very good. BTW, he coached Matt Biondi as an age grouper! Frank Marcinowski has also many years of experience (since 1977 I believe). Except for Frank, all the other coaches are FULL TIME Masters coaches. I believe the coaches had to apply to that camp to be selected as well.

Dr. Genadijus Sokolovas was there for three days. For eight years he was at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs working with swimmers. You can't get better than that! His approach is very scientific. I don't think you can get a lactate clearance test just anywhere. And his Swim Power Test shows you very clearly where you are getting the most and least power in your stroke. He also writes a summary of your weak points and what to do to improve.

Others brought in were also experts in their field. Jennifer Brunelli was a seven time All-American swimmer at South Carolina and is now a nutritionist. Nice to have a nutritionist who is a swimmer! The sport psychologist was a professor at UNC and works with many athletes.

Lefty, Olympians are great to listen to and many of them are good coaches, but this group I felt was really very good.

Yes, it is expensive, but I felt it was very much worth it.

lefty
October 5th, 2011, 05:44 PM
Lefty, Olympians are great to listen to and many of them are good coaches, but this group I felt was really very good.


I agree, the Olympian is the sizzle, the steak are the coaches.

How many days was the evnet?

Glenn
October 5th, 2011, 07:24 PM
It was four full days, (full meaning 6AM to 9:30PM which also included two workouts with a total of 7,000 yards) not counting the arrival day which we saw the facility and had dinner with the Synchro Team and Katie Hoff and the departure day which included breakfast and a ride to the airport. So we were in Greensboro for a total of 6 days.

Chris Stevenson
October 6th, 2011, 07:07 AM
Glenn wrote a nice article about the camp

http://www.usms.org/features.php?id=265

knelson
October 6th, 2011, 10:04 AM
I think it sounds awesome, too, but also thought the price seemed a little high. I was telling my wife about it and she said "want me to guess the price?" Her guess was $2,500. So just more proof that I'm a cheapskate.

__steve__
October 6th, 2011, 10:36 AM
Are there Mid Performance Camps for swimmers who still have stuff to learn?

Glenn
October 6th, 2011, 10:41 AM
I don't know the breakdown of the costs of the camp but consider these numbers that I came up with:

Five nights lodging at the Doubletree w/ tax = $800
14 meals + snacks & drinks after workout = $250
Car rental for 5 days = $200

That's $1250 without any coaches! So the cost of the coaches and other experts over five days is $550 or $137 per day! A bargain. In fact I don't know how they did it for that price!!!

I have worked with Dr. G on my own and I don't remember exactly what he charges for the swim power test or lactate clearance tests but it would be about $300. So now take out the cost of Dr. G and we are down to $250 for 4 days of top notch coaching!!! Now, I bet you can't wait to sign up.....:)

TinaA
October 6th, 2011, 11:35 AM
Where did you find the application form?
I'm usually really good at nosing around the USMS site and finding things but I must have been asleep at the switch for this one.

I did the Swim Power test with Dr. G at nationals in Atlanta. I think I paid between $100 and $200 for analysis of all four strokes. I got a lot of info out of it so it was well worth the cost to me.

Allen Stark
October 6th, 2011, 11:57 AM
I was at the camp in 03 when it was at the OTC.It was great and I think i'd enjoy the new one more as it is not at altitude(see my report on the camp-http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=139 ). After the camp we were told that it was a once in a lifetime opportunity and not to apply again,but since it has been moved can I go?

Glenn
October 6th, 2011, 12:44 PM
Allen,

if you want to go, you should apply. Let them make the decision. If I were you I would.

There will be lots of information at Spring Nats in Greensboro about the camp. So you can wait till then and talk with Hill Carrow, the camp director.

TinaA,

PM me at sca17@pacbell.net and I will send you the application document. I can't figure out how to attach it here. :(

TinaA
October 6th, 2011, 01:02 PM
Thanks Glenn. Just sent you an email.

tatumgn
October 6th, 2011, 01:17 PM
This camp is expensive, It's true... But my experience, and from what I gathered from everyone around me, at the camp, was excellent. There were swimmes of varying backgrounds, and different levels of experience, and all came away with something to work on as well as an amazing education. After the camp, even more material was sent to each swimmer, results of testing and video of swimming with a velocity scale along the bottom were also sent.
We made amazing friends, have coaches, doctors, and swimmers with whom we can write to or call for infomation at any time! I had to suck it up pretty hard to come up with the cash, as we had just moved earlier this year, but I wouldnt change a thing...except my stroke! :)
Since returning, I've been working on some key elements, helping my team mates and team members with their strokes, and considering new ways of becoming a full time masters coach. Everyone from the fastest swimmer to the newest swimmer to the longest experienced, least experienced swimmer, has something to learn, and to share with others...at this camp, these merge. I would happily swim with/ and or for these coaches or swimmers any time.

ande
October 6th, 2011, 03:58 PM
there was a USMS Thread about it back in May 2011 with a link to the application (http://www.usms.org/usmsadmin/docx/uploads/High%20Performance%20Camp.pdf)

Glenn's article (http://www.usms.org/features.php?id=265) makes me wish I attended.

Glenn
October 6th, 2011, 05:58 PM
Ande,

It is not too late! Put in the application to attend the next camp which should be at the end of August.

You will love it!!!:bliss:

SwimKat
October 6th, 2011, 07:13 PM
I went to the camp and agree that it was worth it. Consider the food, lodging, and transportation along with pool time, coaching, and presentations/testing from various experts. We participated in 8 well planned, motivating and challenging 2-hour pool workouts focusing on critical skills and techniques during which we received personalized feedback from the coaches.

Overall it was a great experience with superb coaching and fun people. The information, testing and feedback we received was mind boggling. I never knew there was so much about swimming I didnt know, much less so much about my swimming that I didnt know!

If you can afford the cost and time away from home, I highly recommend it.

jaadams1
October 6th, 2011, 07:26 PM
Five nights lodging at the Doubletree w/ tax = $800

Are you kidding???? Must be nice to have spare :2cents:.

Glenn
October 6th, 2011, 07:48 PM
Go to the Doubletree - Greensboro Website. The actual per room charge without any discounts is $169 per night w/o tax. That is not cheap, but that is the going rate.

You can also get a room at the Drury Inn in Greensboro for $99/night. If you add tax of 8% that comes out to $550 for the 5 nights. Again, not cheap but the going rate.

ande
October 7th, 2011, 10:47 AM
Ande,
It is not too late! Put in the application to attend the next camp which should be at the end of August.
You will love it!!!:bliss:

Are there links to info on the 2012 USMS High Performance Camp?

Glenn
October 7th, 2011, 11:22 AM
There is nothing yet Ande. But they will have a big presence at Spring Nats. There will be things on the forum and other places on the USMS website.

In the meantime, you might want to contact Hill Carrow, the camp director.

hcarrow@sportsproperties.com

He is out of the office right now, but he will get back to you.

lefty
October 10th, 2011, 03:24 PM
I don't know the breakdown of the costs of the camp but consider these numbers that I came up with:

Five nights lodging at the Doubletree w/ tax = $800
14 meals + snacks & drinks after workout = $250
Car rental for 5 days = $200

That's $1250 without any coaches! So the cost of the coaches and other experts over five days is $550 or $137 per day! A bargain. In fact I don't know how they did it for that price!!!

I have worked with Dr. G on my own and I don't remember exactly what he charges for the swim power test or lactate clearance tests but it would be about $300. So now take out the cost of Dr. G and we are down to $250 for 4 days of top notch coaching!!! Now, I bet you can't wait to sign up.....:)

I would think if the published rate is $169 that they paid $100 per night + tax which can be as much as 20%. So the hotel is $600. I also suspect the food cost was more like $150 (thinking like $10-12 per meal)

that means the $850 / swimmer x 15 swimmers = $12,750.

$12,750 to pay 5 coaches, promote the event, and coordinate the whole thing really is quite reasonable. At first blush it seemed high, but really it seems to be in line.

Glenn
October 10th, 2011, 03:36 PM
Lefty,

Yes, that was my point. I have no idea what the actual costs were, but however you break it down, when you do, you see that what at first seems like a lot of money, then seems more reasonable given what all you get.

For me, there was just no question about it. I was going! Of course, we only have one car and it's 32 years old and we don't have a cell phone etc.

The camp was a priority for me and well worth the time and money.

lefty
October 10th, 2011, 05:20 PM
Lefty,

Yes, that was my point. I have no idea what the actual costs were, but however you break it down, when you do, you see that what at first seems like a lot of money, then seems more reasonable given what all you get.

For me, there was just no question about it. I was going! Of course, we only have one car and it's 32 years old and we don't have a cell phone etc.

The camp was a priority for me and well worth the time and money.

I read your article on it and, like Ande, thought it sounded awesome. On the lactate acid test:

Did you swim 5 x 200's at descending speeds and if so, did they provide you an exact pace where you produce more lactate than you can clear?

Glenn
October 10th, 2011, 08:27 PM
Lefty,

This set was long course on the 5 minutes. I think I did the first one in 3:00 and worked it down to maybe 2:40 or so. You just go harder on each one. They don't give you a pace, you do it by feel as you would any descend set. The time isn't necessarily important, it is the effort you put in and the lactic acid you produce as a result.

The idea is to build up lactic acid on each one. You also need time to get out of the pool and have Dr. G. take blood from your earlobe. He had to be well organized as he did 8 people at a time.

By the time you get to the last one you are tired so you just give it all you have left.

The information you get from this is 1) your lactate threshold heart rate which you can use to know when you are swimming a set at your anaerobic threshold or above. You want to do this in certain aspects of your training. I use a heart rate monitor frequently, so this is good information for me. 2) Dr. G. calculates your lactate clearance rate which is how quickly you clear lactic acid from your muscles. This is most useful at a multi-event meet and or three day meet where you have multiple swims. As a result of the testing I need about 20 minutes of warm down to clear. Most people warm down about 200 yards and call it quits. But if you know how quickly (or slowly) you clear, this can be useful.

knelson
October 11th, 2011, 01:07 PM
2) Dr. G. calculates your lactate clearance rate which is how quickly you clear lactic acid from your muscles. This is most useful at a multi-event meet and or three day meet where you have multiple swims. As a result of the testing I need about 20 minutes of warm down to clear. Most people warm down about 200 yards and call it quits. But if you know how quickly (or slowly) you clear, this can be useful.

This link was provided in another thread:
http://linux01.crystalgraphics.com/view/383ee-NjljM/Understanding_Lactate_Clearance_flash_ppt_presenta tion

It gives a good explanation of lactate clearance and why it's important.

Michael Heather
October 11th, 2011, 01:42 PM
I have read this thread with some interest and curiosity.

The title is "high performance camp." In the racing world, there is a saying that will translate pretty well here, "speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

Even if you only want to improve your efficiency, which will give you speed whether or not you care and which will also keep your injury rate down, it is worth the money paid. It is also a vacation, of sorts. Unless you live in Greensboro.

If you have trouble with the cost, don't apply. If you were accepted, your trip would be tempered by the constant penny counting and comparison shopping. You are there to learn how to be efficient and fast. It is not a huge profit center, but if it makes money maybe it will continue to happen.

hcarrow
October 14th, 2011, 01:51 PM
After having reviewed a number of the posts on the discussion of the 2011 USMS High Performance Camp, I thought it would be helpful to weigh in on some of the subjects where questions or comments were made:

1. Tina: Interested swimmers apply for the camp. There are indeed a limited number of slots. This year we had 15 campers, and after surveying the campers and coaches after the camp, the general consensus was the camp could reasonably accommodate up to 20 campers. So that will be our top-end number going forward.
We are working on our application for the 2012 camp. The 2011 edition was something of a test drive for USMS. Based upon favorable reviews from the participants and coaches, the camp has now been approved for long-term, annual status as an attractive USMS offering. That all happened at Convention last month, so now that we know the camp has a future we are in the process of pinning down the details for the 2012 camp. It is likely that the dates, location, housing, etc will remain the same, but we will be working to fine tune some details based on suggestions and recommendations of this year's campers and coaches.
The application will also likely be almost the same as this year's which can be accessed at usms.org/coaches/highperformancecamp.pdf. You'll be able to see from the application that you are asked to provide information about yourself, your swimming, your goals, etc, and this is all taken into consideration by the coaches where there is a need to prioritize the applicants.
With this year's applicants, there was enough attrition by those who applied (with conflicts that arose later, or a desire to do it in a future year rather than this year, etc.) that the narrowing down process pretty much took care of itself.

2. John: I think it might be helpful to address some of the communications issues you mentioned.
Our volunteer staff actually did try to communicate about the camp but the main problem seemed to be that your email requires approval and acceptance of incoming emails, and despite attempts (including my own) going through the requirements of the approval process, we did not receive approval for our emails to get through. When we called and left messages (not being able to reach you in person) about the situation, we didn't receive call backs or the immediate ability to get email messages through.
By the time we finally did achieve successful communication, unfortunately we were right on top of payment deadlines, etc.
In 2012 we will have the advantage of being much farther in advance with information (2011 info only first came out in April). In addition, if you are thinking of coming to 2012 USMS Spring Nationals, you will have the advantage of checking out the camp venue in advance and talking to us live and in person about the HPC. (Since I am serving as Co-Meet Director of Spring Nationals, I will be there throughout the entire event for any questions or discussion you may have.)
As for not having all the information regarding the coaches, keep in mind that for all practical purposes, 2011 was a start-up camp. That means some coach participation details were being put together at the same time as operational preparations were underway.
Interestingly, those coaches who were at the camp who dated back to when the camp was in Colorado Springs, both Nadine Day and Kerry O'Brien, indicated that the participants in the "old days" didn't know who the coaches were until they got to the camp.
The good news is that now that the Coaches Committee has one of the "new" camps under its belt, they are already working on the coaches who will be leading the 2012 camp and we should be able to communicate the entire coaching staff well in advance (and maybe even in the camp brochure itself!).

3. Kirk: With regard to pricing, we charged the same price $1800 that was charged when the camp "was put in mothballs" in Colorado Springs six years earlier. Considering that that camp had the benefit of both subsidized food and housing (and no real transportation needs) at the US Olympic Training Center, most of our participants were amazed we were able to accomplish that.
In our survey of this year's participants, the great majority felt the camp would be a tremendous value at a cost of up to $2000.

4. Allen: Now that the HPC has been reinstituted in a different location you are more than welcome to apply and participate again.

5. ALL: Until such time as we get a new application and related information on the USMS website for the 2012 USMS High Performance Camp (expected within about 30 days), you can feel free to let your interest in attending the camp be known, or simply ask questions about the camp directly, by emailing Molly Matthews of our Triangle Sports Commission staff at mmatthews@trianglesportscommission.com. If you write and express interest in participation, we will keep your contact info and will notify you as soon as the application is available.

Thanks to everyone on this discussion thread for your comments and interest. Thanks very much, too, to Glenn Gruber for his great article, and to all of this year's participants and coaches, for a wonderful re-start to the USMS High Performance Camp. We look forward to a long and positive future for the HPC!

Hill Carrow
Camp Director
2011 USMS High Performance Camp

thewookiee
October 14th, 2011, 02:00 PM
Hill,

I don't know why you were getting an "acceptance/approval" for my email. Are you sure you were sending it to me and not someone else?

I have never had anyone else mention they were getting those type of requests to send me emails. I have used my email address for several years without any incidents.

John