PDA

View Full Version : Sets/intervals (non-junk, non-sprint yardage) for sprinter



ElaineK
December 28th, 2011, 11:29 AM
Yes, I know there are workouts and blogs with plenty of set ideas, however, I don't know which ones would be best for my needs and situation. I have Mondays and Fridays nailed down: Ande and King Frog's sprint workouts have been great; no problem there. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, I train at another pool with my part-time coach who coaches a small group of adults. We do a 3500-3800 yard organized workout; the same one he gives his team of kids in the afternoon. It kicks my :censor: ; no problem there.

So, this is where I need help: On Wednesdays and Saturdays, I do a breastroke 25yd sprint breast/25yd recovery free set (8x50's) that Ande recommends I do each day, as well as the 600 yards (150 fast) of breaststroke kick he recommends I do each day (if I swim a total of 3000 yards). Combined with my 800-yard warm-up of free, IM's, and breaststroke drill, it totals 1800 yards. What I am looking for is 1000-1500 yards of sets that are non-sprint sets- but, non-junk yards, to round things out.

Any suggestions? I'm having the most difficult time trying to determine proper intervals, given my swimming level. Here are some sprint times to go by: My 25yd breast, fly, and back sprints from a push off all average :20-:21 and my free averages :17.

I am a breaststroker, however, I would like to improve my 50's in all strokes, in addition to 100 breaststroke. My weakness in all strokes is my kick. And, yes, I do weights 2-3 times each week, so I'm not looking to spend any more time in the weight room. Specifically, I would like some good recovery sets I could do that won't hurt my sprint times.

Thanks!
:chug:

hnatkin
December 28th, 2011, 06:48 PM
Hi Elaine! One of my favorite stroke sets is 20 x 50 IM order. I do them on :50 (1:00 for br) which is ~:10 rest. Really good opportunity to work all the strokes and also good if you are thinking you may have a 200 IM in your future!

ElaineK
December 28th, 2011, 07:40 PM
Hi Elaine! One of my favorite stroke sets is 20 x 50 IM order. I do them on :50 (1:00 for br) which is ~:10 rest. Really good opportunity to work all the strokes and also good if you are thinking you may have a 200 IM in your future!

Hi Heidi! Happy new year! Are you going to Auburn, in February? I hope to see you there!

Thank you for your suggestion. You are a lot faster than me; my current 50 yd breaststroke race time is around :40, my fly is about :42, my backstroke is around :44, and my free is about :34. So, given those race times, what times do you think I should try to hit in a "recovery" workout? Should I aim for :10 rest or add a little more time to rest in between 50's? By the way, my 100IM PB is 1:27+.

Thanks!

hnatkin
December 28th, 2011, 08:54 PM
Happy new year to you, too! I am planning on going to Auburn but have a big work deliverable on Mon following so there is a chance I'll have to bag it at the last minute. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

When you swim sets of 50s br or free, what kind of rest do you usually take? I think :10 per 50 is probably fine but if you generally go :15 start there and then over time if you find that it's getting too easy, take the rest intervals down. I should really take the br down to :55 but I need the extra rest there otherwise I wouldn't make it through the fly and back for the entire set. Running through the IM 5 times definitely gets me tired by the end. You know I'm more of a middle distance swimmer so I use it as a way to prep for the 200 and even 400 IM!

ElaineK
December 28th, 2011, 10:23 PM
Happy new year to you, too! I am planning on going to Auburn but have a big work deliverable on Mon following so there is a chance I'll have to bag it at the last minute. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

When you swim sets of 50s br or free, what kind of rest do you usually take? I think :10 per 50 is probably fine but if you generally go :15 start there and then over time if you find that it's getting too easy, take the rest intervals down. I should really take the br down to :55 but I need the extra rest there otherwise I wouldn't make it through the fly and back for the entire set. Running through the IM 5 times definitely gets me tired by the end. You know I'm more of a middle distance swimmer so I use it as a way to prep for the 200 and even 400 IM!

Good luck, Heidi; I hope you can make it to the meet!

I always need more rest for breaststroke than I do free; definitely 15 seconds. When I swam breaststroke in high school, it was the easiest stroke for me; I never needed as much rest as I needed for freestyle. And, my 100 yd breaststroke was 1:19.6. Now, my 100 is 1:30 and it makes me feel :cane: the way that stroke wears me out! If I do 4x50 breaststroke on 1:00, I'll start off at :45 or :46 (100 pace), but they will slip to :48 or :49 by the end. And, that's over at the Steve Lundquist Aquatic Center. At my 84 degree community pool, it gets worse! :afraid:

I'll give the 50's a try and see how I hold up...

hnatkin
December 29th, 2011, 08:34 AM
You are not alone - the breaststroke wears me out the most, too :)

ElaineK
December 29th, 2011, 12:41 PM
You are not alone - the breaststroke wears me out the most, too :)

Really? What's up with that? Why was it the easiest stroke when I was a kid and the hardest now (well, besides fly...)? I have a lot better technique now, but I am still just as flexible. Freestyle used to wear me out then, but now it's the easiest. The two strokes have reversed as I have grown older and I just can't figure it out... :shakeshead:

pmccoy
December 29th, 2011, 12:54 PM
Really? What's up with that? Why was it the easiest stroke when I was a kid and the hardest now (well, besides fly...)? I have a lot better technique now, but I am still just as flexible. Freestyle used to wear me out then, but now it's the easiest. The two strokes have reversed as I have grown older and I just can't figure it out... :shakeshead:I'm to the point were I'm less adverse to 200 fly than I am to 200 breaststroke. Both wear me out about the same. The difference for me is the breaststroke pull-out. I'm getting to where I spend 40-45% of my swim underwater which is no fun for my lungs. With fly, my sdk is bad enough that one or two kicks off the wall isn't any slower that 3 or 4. My arms are more tired with fly but I get to that precious O2 faster.

ElaineK
December 29th, 2011, 01:05 PM
I'm to the point were I'm less adverse to 200 fly than I am to 200 breaststroke. Both wear me out about the same. The difference for me is the breaststroke pull-out. I'm getting to where I spend 40-45% of my swim underwater which is no fun for my lungs. With fly, my sdk is bad enough that one or two kicks off the wall isn't any slower that 3 or 4. My arms are more tired with fly but I get to that precious O2 faster.

Ahhh, I think you just hit on the reason! Duhhh!! :blush: My pullout and underwater time was probably next to nothing, when I was swimming in high school. Since our coach didn't even know how to swim, I was self-taught at breaststroke and got by on youthful strength, I guess, when swimming breaststroke. But, I probably rushed the pullout and spent a larger majority of my time above water than I am spending now. I've been working hard to be patient and strong on my pullout, even when my lungs feel like they are going to burst. I don't remember doing that back in high school...

swimBRCT
December 29th, 2011, 04:52 PM
Ahhh, I think you just hit on the reason! Duhhh!! :blush: My pullout and underwater time was probably next to nothing, when I was swimming in high school. Since our coach didn't even know how to swim, I was self-taught at breaststroke and got by on youthful strength, I guess, when swimming breaststroke. But, I probably rushed the pullout and spent a larger majority of my time above water than I am spending now. I've been working hard to be patient and strong on my pullout, even when my lungs feel like they are going to burst. I don't remember doing that back in high school...

Just some food for thought, some people are trying the "short pullout" off the wall. There was a USMS article about it a few weeks back.

You come up sooner but with more momentum. So even though other people get further underwater, as they gently rise up, you are hauling away full speed and hopefully are able to maintain it! At the end of the race if your underwater is slower than your surface stroke then it may be fun for you to experiment with a short pullout with almost no glide, focusing on coming up full speed.

Chris Stevenson
December 29th, 2011, 05:04 PM
Just some food for thought, some people are trying the "short pullout" off the wall. There was a USMS article about it a few weeks back.

http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=340

ElaineK
December 29th, 2011, 05:36 PM
http://www.usms.org/articles/articledisplay.php?a=340

Thanks Swim and Chris. I remember reading the article, but forgot about it and never tried it in the water. Thanks for the idea. And, thanks for the link, Chris!

Edit: I tried to find a video demonstration of a short pullout, but no luck. I would love to see one of the frogs out there post a video of how it should be done!

hnatkin
December 29th, 2011, 06:08 PM
Soni did it at Worlds this summer - I think in the 100 - look and see if you can find video of that race

FlyQueen
December 29th, 2011, 06:10 PM
I know you said you kicked but I LOVE kicking. I think it's huge for sprinters. Do some longer kick stuff 200s and 300s and shorter kick stuff. Basically take a set you like and make it kick. When gearing up for LCM I typically do entire workouts kick. So I'll go something like:

5 x 200 kick; odds fly/evens free on an interval that gives me :20-:30 rest

8 x 100 kick on an interval that gives me :10-:15 rest

8 x 50 kick on 2:30 - really kick all out hard!

I use long fins, Zoomers, bare feet, and shoes ... I want to get a band and start kicking with that, too.

If your legs are fried grab a pull buoy. Focus on your free or breast pull. One thing I used to do when I tried to swim br was take paddles and flip them over so the non-rubberband side is in the water and not secured. Try to swim br with the paddles flipped. If you ever stop putting pressure on the water the paddles will fly out.

When I'm doing recovery or easy stuff (especially when I swim solo) I use LOTS of toys. I'll put on paddles and long fins and try to hold a fast pace (but not one that is totally taxing) for 3 x 200 or even 2 x 400. I also LOVE doing backstroke with fins.

My events are 50/100 free and right now just the 50 fly ...

Paul Smith
December 29th, 2011, 07:26 PM
Just some food for thought, some people are trying the "short pullout" off the wall. There was a USMS article about it a few weeks back.

You come up sooner but with more momentum. So even though other people get further underwater, as they gently rise up, you are hauling away full speed and hopefully are able to maintain it! At the end of the race if your underwater is slower than your surface stroke then it may be fun for you to experiment with a short pullout with almost no glide, focusing on coming up full speed.

And getting DQ'd left and right for it!! Lots of officials unaware of the rule on this and lots of swimmers unable to execute it correctly!

If I'm reading your 6 day a week swim program correctly you don;t have a single workout committed entirely to recovery or much work in A1, A2, EN1....just a partial set on one or two days? Only in recovery do you find gains in your overall conditioning!

ElaineK
December 29th, 2011, 09:49 PM
Soni did it at Worlds this summer - I think in the 100 - look and see if you can find video of that race

Here is Soni's 100 at Worlds. You can see her clearly during the pullout off the blocks: http://youtu.be/9XpkYqsF5I0

ElaineK
December 29th, 2011, 09:54 PM
I know you said you kicked but I LOVE kicking. I think it's huge for sprinters. Do some longer kick stuff 200s and 300s and shorter kick stuff. Basically take a set you like and make it kick. When gearing up for LCM I typically do entire workouts kick. So I'll go something like:

5 x 200 kick; odds fly/evens free on an interval that gives me :20-:30 rest

8 x 100 kick on an interval that gives me :10-:15 rest

8 x 50 kick on 2:30 - really kick all out hard!

I use long fins, Zoomers, bare feet, and shoes ... I want to get a band and start kicking with that, too.

If your legs are fried grab a pull buoy. Focus on your free or breast pull. One thing I used to do when I tried to swim br was take paddles and flip them over so the non-rubberband side is in the water and not secured. Try to swim br with the paddles flipped. If you ever stop putting pressure on the water the paddles will fly out.

When I'm doing recovery or easy stuff (especially when I swim solo) I use LOTS of toys. I'll put on paddles and long fins and try to hold a fast pace (but not one that is totally taxing) for 3 x 200 or even 2 x 400. I also LOVE doing backstroke with fins.

My events are 50/100 free and right now just the 50 fly ...

Great suggestions, Fly; thanks! I really need more power from my kick in all strokes, so perhaps I should make Saturdays my kick-focused day, as long as my legs hold out... :toohurt:

ElaineK
December 29th, 2011, 10:00 PM
And getting DQ'd left and right for it!! Lots of officials unaware of the rule on this and lots of swimmers unable to execute it correctly!

If I'm reading your 6 day a week swim program correctly you don;t have a single workout committed entirely to recovery or much work in A1, A2, EN1....just a partial set on one or two days? Only in recovery do you find gains in your overall conditioning!

On the first point, I believe this is why I forgot about it, after I read the article. I don't even do a dolphin kick now, because I'm afraid I will get DQ'd! :afraid:


You are right; I do not have a recovery-only workout. So, Tall Paul, Master Set Maker :D, what recovery sets would you recommend for my level (see previous posts for times, etc.)? If there are some workouts from your thread you feel would be appropriate, will you point me to the post #'s and I'll check them out?

Thanks!
:chug:

jaadams1
December 29th, 2011, 11:05 PM
You are right; I do not have a recovery-only workout. So, Tall Paul, Master Set Maker :D, what recovery sets would you recommend for my level (see previous posts for times, etc.)? If there are some workouts from your thread you feel would be appropriate, will you point me to the post #'s and I'll check them out?

Thanks!
:chug:


Elaine,

For your recovery day, just try doing your standard warmup first, and then go into something like 10 x 100 Free @ (interval that would give you :20-:30 rest). No need to push these. Just swim them relaxed with good technique. Work the walls and streamlines (everything from flags to the wall and out to the flags) and swim relaxed in the middle.

It's okay to do longer swims as recovery, even if you're only focusing on shorter events for your "core swims".

Heck, switch it up now and then and do a set of 100s, or 150s building them to the finish on days that you're doing more intense stuff. It's good to build your endurance up...makes the back half of the race hurt less.

Good luck. :cheerleader:

ElaineK
December 30th, 2011, 12:43 PM
Elaine,

For your recovery day, just try doing your standard warmup first, and then go into something like 10 x 100 Free @ (interval that would give you :20-:30 rest). No need to push these. Just swim them relaxed with good technique. Work the walls and streamlines (everything from flags to the wall and out to the flags) and swim relaxed in the middle.

It's okay to do longer swims as recovery, even if you're only focusing on shorter events for your "core swims".

Heck, switch it up now and then and do a set of 100s, or 150s building them to the finish on days that you're doing more intense stuff. It's good to build your endurance up...makes the back half of the race hurt less.

Good luck. :cheerleader:

Thanks, James! That sounds like the perfect set for tomorrow; I appreciate the suggestion! Hey, buddy, happy new year to ya! :party2:

Allen Stark
December 31st, 2011, 12:34 AM
And getting DQ'd left and right for it!! Lots of officials unaware of the rule on this and lots of swimmers unable to execute it correctly!
!

Paul,why are they being DQd?I haven't seen a video,but I thought the short pull was just doing a regular BR pull on the pullout instead of the full pulldown.Is the issue where to put the dolphin kick? I can see that could be a problem if you try the early dolphin kick,which can easily lead to a DQ in Masters with either the pulldown or short pull.What am I missing?

knelson
December 31st, 2011, 12:55 AM
I'm not exactly sure what this "short pullout" entails, but I would guess the DQs must be a result of not alternating a pull and a kick. If you omit the (breaststroke) kick on your pullout you better be taking it on the surface before you start another pull.

From the Rule Book:

Throughout the race the stroke cycle must be one arm stroke and one leg kick in that order.

ElaineK
December 31st, 2011, 02:05 PM
Elaine,

For your recovery day, just try doing your standard warmup first, and then go into something like 10 x 100 Free @ (interval that would give you :20-:30 rest). No need to push these. Just swim them relaxed with good technique. Work the walls and streamlines (everything from flags to the wall and out to the flags) and swim relaxed in the middle.


Well, James, I (partly) took your advice for my last swim of the year. After my usual warm-up, I swam:

20x100 on R:20-
100 br/ 100fr/ 100 kick/ 100br k/ 50br-50fr
5x100fr
100 br/ 100fr/ 100 kick/ 100br k/ 50br-50fr
5x100fr
(Focus: Quick turns, DPS, streamline, getting feet turned out on br. kick. Breaststroke was 8-9 strokes/25yd and free was 14-16 strokes.)

I left backstroke and fly out of the mix to give my shoulders a break and swam the 100's sloooow; 1:40's for the free and 1:43's on the breaststroke.

I ended the year with 42.61 miles for the month/ 382.46 miles for the year; waaay more than my original GTD goal of 275! When my surgeon said I would be able to swim again, I don't think he ever believed I would be able to log in THIS many miles with my shoulders... :bliss:

Anyway, this felt like a good recovery swim. Would it be considered "recovery" or "junk yardage"? I still don't really understand the difference...

jaadams1
December 31st, 2011, 04:35 PM
Well, James, I (partly) took your advice for my last swim of the year. After my usual warm-up, I swam:

20x100 on R:20-
100 br/ 100fr/ 100 kick/ 100br k/ 50br-50fr
5x100fr
100 br/ 100fr/ 100 kick/ 100br k/ 50br-50fr
5x100fr
(Focus: Quick turns, DPS, streamline, getting feet turned out on br. kick. Breaststroke was 8-9 strokes/25yd and free was 14-16 strokes.)

I left backstroke and fly out of the mix to give my shoulders a break and swam the 100's sloooow; 1:40's for the free and 1:43's on the breaststroke.

I ended the year with 42.61 miles for the month/ 382.46 miles for the year; waaay more than my original GTD goal of 275! When my surgeon said I would be able to swim again, I don't think he ever believed I would be able to log in THIS many miles with my shoulders... :bliss:

Anyway, this felt like a good recovery swim. Would it be considered "recovery" or "junk yardage"? I still don't really understand the difference...

This could be considered recovery, or it could be something else depending on how you were swimming it.

You did just fine. I find that variety is a key to success. While it's good to do certain things again to test yourself, you shouldn't be repeating and repeating your same workouts day by day, week by week.

I go to the pool a lot with no workout in mind, and make it up as I go as well.

Garbage yards would be swimming without any purpose at all, kind of like some of my cooldowns. :)

ElaineK
December 31st, 2011, 04:44 PM
This could be considered recovery, or it could be something else depending on how you were swimming it.

You did just fine. I find that variety is a key to success. While it's good to do certain things again to test yourself, you shouldn't be repeating and repeating your same workouts day by day, week by week.

I go to the pool a lot with no workout in mind, and make it up as I go as well.

Garbage yards would be swimming without any purpose at all, kind of like some of my cooldowns. :)

Thanks, James. So, I guess slow is ok, as long as I have focus/purpose for the set. And, my purpose, whenever I swim slow, is to at least to work on DPS; except during warm-up, where the purpose for the first 200 yards or so is to get the kinks out! :cane:

Paul Smith
December 31st, 2011, 05:33 PM
You are right; I do not have a recovery-only workout. So, Tall Paul, Master Set Maker :D, what recovery sets would you recommend for my level (see previous posts for times, etc.)? If there are some workouts from your thread you feel would be appropriate, will you point me to the post #'s and I'll check them out?

Thanks!
:chug:


No real "secret" to recovery...our focus is to make sure people keep their heart rates below 120 and move their body in a variety of ways at low speed that they rarely do during a normal workout. For example using a broad range of drills (we tend to take :30 rest on most things), "social" kicks, for our sprinters some "longer" hypoxic swims (400-600 range)...and one final thing, although we set aside Thursdays for this type of work I pull a swimmer from a regular workout pretty frequently who I feel is getting to broken down and have them either take the day off or change to a recovery day.

A good article on recovery...masters are quite a different "animal" then age group/college level swimmers that you can go more into the depth of this approach but even applying some of the basics can have a lot of impact:

http://www.swimmingcoach.org/articles/JL10102002.asp

knelson
December 31st, 2011, 07:02 PM
A good article on recovery...masters are quite a different "animal" then age group/college level swimmers that you can go more into the depth of this approach but even applying some of the basics can have a lot of impact:

http://www.swimmingcoach.org/articles/JL10102002.asp

Thanks for the article, Paul, very interesting.

You mention masters swimmers are different than age group or college swimmers, so what would you recommend for masters swimmers who train with an age group team?

jaadams1
December 31st, 2011, 09:18 PM
You mention masters swimmers are different than age group or college swimmers, so what would you recommend for masters swimmers who train with an age group team?

Try to keep up and don't have a heart attack! :bolt:

ElaineK
January 1st, 2012, 12:47 AM
No real "secret" to recovery...our focus is to make sure people keep their heart rates below 120 and move their body in a variety of ways at low speed that they rarely do during a normal workout.

Perfect; just what I needed to know! I often monitor my heart rate, so now I have something concrete to go on. Thanks, Paul. And, happy new year! :chug:

Paul Smith
January 1st, 2012, 09:17 AM
Thanks for the article, Paul, very interesting.

You mention masters swimmers are different than age group or college swimmers, so what would you recommend for masters swimmers who train with an age group team?

Kirk, we have several of our masters swimmers that opt to train with our senior kids and my advice to them is to simply be VERY aware of their bodies. Sounds simple but tell me how many times you have gotten out of a workout after only a few minutes, gone to a lane with slower intervals and just kicked or simply slept in? :)

Bottom line for me is to not try and see how "much" you can do but how "fast" you can do it....and sadly starting around 40 every one of those fast (or substitute "strength" on lifting days) days seems to take 2, 3 or 4 days of recovery!!

knelson
January 1st, 2012, 12:19 PM
I agree it's not as simple as it sounds. There's a natural tendency to compare yourself to others in the pool even if they are less than half your age. When I'm swimming poorly or get out early I feel like a wuss. I need to accept the fact that I need to do what's best for me.


Bottom line for me is to not try and see how "much" you can do but how "fast" you can do it

I'm slowly realizing this. Right now I can maintain a decent pace for a long time, but when it comes time to swim fast I have trouble finding that next gear.

chowmi
January 1st, 2012, 03:39 PM
Wise Tall Paul has the most awesome posts in this thread!!!! True words of wisdom!!!!

I agree 100%!

And Knelson makes a very good point - you can get very efficient at less-than-max speed and hold for extended sets and yardage, but the next gear, Elusive Speed, takes a different aproach to reach and train. I find that targeting 2 sprint sets a week, and building the week around that, with recovery off days, is the only way I have been able to tap into going true race-pace in a workout. It is so tempting to want to relive the glory the next day (Was I really that fast? Let me see! Just oooonnne more sprint today!) But no, it is better to stick to "The Plan" and make sure in 2 to 3 days, I am absolutely going to hit it again, and not just have a Good Effort Day. And in weeks where you know life will get "in the way", you have to accomodate your training for that, too, such as this past week between xmas and new years. I highly recommend everyone read the article Wise Paul posted earlier. The point is, everyone is different. For me, it's 2x per week. And I am finding I probably also need to take 2 days completely off per week. It really compresses the amount of workouts I do a week! (PS I will have a blog post on this point today!)