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bowyer954
January 1st, 2012, 02:40 PM
This is most likely a topic for training but I need some general advice also. I will be 60 at the nationals and swim both BF and FS. I go a 27.66 in the 50 BF, and a 25.29 in the 50 FS. For the 100's it is a 1:03 in the BF and :56 in the FS. I lift 3x/wk and swim 4x/wk. For the most part I train alone. I find if I go much more than 2600 yds in a workout I am close to killing my shoulders. I also should note that even in practice when working on 50's if I go increments faster than 1:15 I can only do about 6 FS. If I am working on BF I need to do the increments at least around 1:30 and then I can only do around 4 of those. If I swim a 100 BF I am about done for the day! My times have been coming down every year but I think if I could get more out of practice I would see much more improvement. A normal workout for me is:
400 warm-up
4X 100 stoke on the 2:30
5 x 100 broken with 10 sec rest on 1st 25 and 1st 50 on 4min
8 x50 stroke on 1:30
400 kick
(3) 4x25 on 45sec
200 cool down

I have followed a lot of the threads and looked at workouts but am searching for something I can do without breaking down--another possibility is that i am just lazy--not sure how to fix that!

Swimosaur
January 1st, 2012, 04:35 PM
... I will be 60 at the nationals and swim both BF and FS. I go a 27.66 in the 50 BF, and a 25.29 in the 50 FS ... For the most part I train alone ... I have followed a lot of the threads and looked at workouts but am searching for something I can do without breaking down ...

So you are a sprinter! As far as I know, there's no shame in that ...

Fortress is the new USMS "High Intensity" coach & should start posting soon, I think --> here.

Here (http://archive.constantcontact.com/fs043/1102294150505/archive/1108956797853.html) is a recent announcement.



2012 Online Coaches Announced

Online Member and Coach Benefit

USMS is proud to announce its handpicked coaches who will be writing workouts in seven different specialties and posting them in the members-only area of the USMS Discussion Forums at usms.org. Your new swimmers, triathletes, distance swimmers, sprinters and even expectant mothers, will find workouts designed just for them.

These coaches will be writing in the following specialties:

Laura Schuster: Basic Training
Eric Mitchell: Stroke and IM
Mallory Mead: Open Water
Leslie Livingston: High Intensity
Patrick Brundage: High Volume
Sara McLarty: Triathlon Training
Danielle Newton: Expectant Mothers

bowyer954
January 1st, 2012, 05:18 PM
Thanks for the direction! Appreciate it.

ande
January 1st, 2012, 08:40 PM
You're a sprinter

Focus on 25 speed & your 50s will be much faster

Thats what Leslie Livingston: High Intensity does

Swim Faster Faster Tip 335 Build a Fortress of Speed & Strength

I trained that way between Dec 2007 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4298&page=90) to Dec 2008
When you follow my blog you'll see how I trained

Also you have shoulder trouble

In you sample workout you wrote:
400 kick which gave me the impression of plodding along kicking slow

You MUST focus on SPEED
Which means FAST kicking over short distances with plenty of rest

IMPROVE your SDK With
Help! My SDK is Horrible

bowyer954
January 2nd, 2012, 05:18 PM
Hey, thanks! Found your workouts and will be doing some "cutting and pasting". My SDK can use improvement--any big meet I have been in almost invariably the best kicker wins!

Swimosaur
January 2nd, 2012, 06:27 PM
Leslie has posted her first week of workouts.

Introduction here --> Welcome to High Intensity Training!


First week here --> Week #1 Jan. 2-7, 2012

bowyer954
January 2nd, 2012, 07:06 PM
got it thanks--will try the Tuesday routine tomorrow---just hope I don't die!

Jazz Hands
January 3rd, 2012, 05:10 PM
This is the best workout for sprinting:

8x25 @ 3:00

Here are some variations:

8x25 @ 3:00 fly with fins
8x25 @ 3:00 free
8x25 @ 3:00 2x IM order

Et cetera, invent your own, whatever.

The Fortress
January 3rd, 2012, 06:09 PM
Agree with Jazz that this is a great set, and one I do frequently. However, it is geared more to 50s, than 100s. Jazz has a love affair with the 50 free. You'd needs some sets at > 25 yards (50s, 75s and/or 100s, some broken) for sprint conditioning for 100s. Conversely, it would be useful to incorporate some burst sprints of 12.5-15 meters to work on breakouts and above race pace speed.

qbrain
January 3rd, 2012, 06:37 PM
I find if I go much more than 2600 yds in a workout I am close to killing my shoulders.

This could be a technique problem or a strength problem more than a distance problem. Are you doing rotator cuff exercises? Does over head press or bench press bother your shoulders? Have you been video taped or had someone knowledgeable review your stroke recently? Do you have good posture out of the pool?

It is a good idea to try to correct any problems that might would limit your training.

The Fortress
January 3rd, 2012, 07:19 PM
This could be a technique problem or a strength problem more than a distance problem. Are you doing rotator cuff exercises? Does over head press or bench press bother your shoulders? Have you been video taped or had someone knowledgeable review your stroke recently? Do you have good posture out of the pool?

It is a good idea to try to correct any problems that might would limit your training.

Good point. And ballistic sprinting can be hard on the shoulders. Are you doing a workout like the one in your original post every day? You might want to incorporate some recovery workouts. And consider incorporating fins and kicking to your workouts.

Also, FWIW, I almost only swim fly with fins largely to avoid shoulder issues. Though fins are great for speed work and dolphin kicking.

pwb
January 3rd, 2012, 07:36 PM
Here are some REALLY creative ideas on training:

http://theswimmerscircle.com/blog/swim-talk-peter-andrew-coachfather-of-nag-record-breaker-michael-andrew/

Glenn
January 3rd, 2012, 07:45 PM
Regarding shoulder problems, do you sleep on your side? If so, your shoulder(s) are getting significant weight and therefore stress on them for 6 - 8 hours per night 365 days a year!

I used to have shoulder problems, I am convinced, due to sleeping on my shoulder. I read a piece in Swim Magazine 10 years or so ago written by a physical therapist/swimmer (bronze medalist - Montreal 400 free) who mentioned the sleeping on shoulder issue.

Have trained myself to sleep on my back or stomach and have done so for two years and have not had any shoulder problems. If I must sleep on my side, I hold myself at a 45 degree angle so the shoulder does not get my full weight.

This may not be your problem, but it is worth considering.

The Fortress
January 3rd, 2012, 08:36 PM
Here are some REALLY creative ideas on training:

http://theswimmerscircle.com/blog/swim-talk-peter-andrew-coachfather-of-nag-record-breaker-michael-andrew/

What were the creative ideas? I only heard 2 ideas that weren't that novel: work on technique and rest between fast practice swims to avoid fatigue.

smontanaro
January 3rd, 2012, 08:55 PM
And consider incorporating fins and kicking to your workouts.

A funny thing happened while trying to take care of my sore shoulders. I think my kick might have improved. A little. :D

S

jaadams1
January 3rd, 2012, 09:04 PM
A funny thing happened while trying to take care of my sore shoulders. I think my kick might have improved. A little. :D

S

I did the same thing my senior year in college when I cut a couple tendons in my hand in the kitchen, right at the start of the season too!! :bitching:
Anyway...I had a waterproof brace that I could put on which kept my hand immobile, and I did nothing but kicking w/ and w/o a board, and occasional 1-arm pulling. End of story, my kicking improved a lot, and when I was finally cleared to compete 1/2way through the season, my sprints improved a lot!

bowyer954
January 4th, 2012, 01:21 PM
Used your Tuesday workout yesterday and enjoyed it (kind of!). Had to modify my intervals on the 100 IM--I usually only swim BF & FS--backstoke is a country I never visit! I appreciate the advice and will attempt to follow your schedule of workouts--thanks

bowyer954
January 4th, 2012, 01:27 PM
Have worked with a trainer for the dryland exercises and I sometimes swim w/ an orthopedic surgeon so I have had them work on my rotator cuff and exercises to reduce the pain--I do have issues with my clean and press and the pressure it puts on my shoulder when I put the weights down. I can only sleep on my side and know that this is bad for shoulder issues. One of the things I may not be doing is sufficient recovery days--need to think about this.

The Fortress
January 6th, 2012, 12:27 PM
This suggests that fast 12.5s and 25s should be a staple of sprint training:

http://www.swimmingscience.net/2012/01/forgotten-swimming-training-part-iii.html

pwolf66
January 6th, 2012, 12:36 PM
I lift 3x/wk and swim 4x/wk. For the most part I train alone. I find if I go much more than 2600 yds in a workout I am close to killing my shoulders.

This comment concerns me and I would like to get a better understanding of your lifting routine, specifically what rotator cuff strengthen exercises you do and what other exercises that involve the shoulder joint. I suspect that you are doing the major movements such as bench, shoulder press, rows, etc but are not doing internal and external rotations, lateral rotations, Is/Ys/Ts and many other exercises that focus on strenthening the numerous smaller muscle groups in the shoulder and upper back area.

__steve__
January 6th, 2012, 12:39 PM
my senior year in college when I cut a couple tendons in my hand in the kitchen,

Could this be the reason jaadams1 only eats fast food (plastic utensils)?

pwolf66
January 6th, 2012, 01:02 PM
Could this be the reason jaadams1 only eats fast food (plastic utensils)?


Nah, that started MUCH earlier :angel:

Jazz Hands
January 6th, 2012, 03:06 PM
This suggests that fast 12.5s and 25s should be a staple of sprint training:

http://www.swimmingscience.net/2012/01/forgotten-swimming-training-part-iii.html

That's wayyy too much energy system talk. The reason short distances work is because they allow you to practice technique at high speed and build specific strength without accumulating fatigue. It's very simple, but some people prefer to talk about energy systems because it makes them seem smarter than they are.

smontanaro
January 6th, 2012, 03:14 PM
The reason short distances work is because they allow you to practice technique at high speed and build specific strength without accumulating fatigue.

I think this is one of my major shortcomings. If I build up to race speed I do okay. In a race though, the adrenaline takes over and my technique goes all to hell. I think I need to do more short distance high(er) intensity work to get used to preserving technique from the get-go.

S

Jazz Hands
January 6th, 2012, 03:16 PM
I think this is one of my major shortcomings. If I build up to race speed I do okay. In a race though, the adrenaline takes over and my technique goes all to hell. I think I need to do more short distance high(er) intensity work to get used to preserving technique from the get-go.

S

You might also benefit from racing in meets more, so that you can practice dealing with the adrenaline. That condition doesn't exist in practice.

Rich Abrahams
January 6th, 2012, 04:29 PM
That's wayyy too much energy system talk. The reason short distances work is because they allow you to practice technique at high speed and build specific strength without accumulating fatigue. It's very simple, but some people prefer to talk about energy systems because it makes them seem smarter than they are.

Jazz,
You're turning into the Andy Rooney of the swim forum.

I do agree with most of what you say, but the science has shown some counter-intuitive results: most notably that intense short anaerobic work improves the aerobic system more than just aerobic work. I think that is the result of a fair number of researchers, among them Tabata, my hero.

Rich

bowyer954
January 6th, 2012, 05:25 PM
So for the lifting exercixes I start with a stretching rountine and then go into a set of clean and jerks--squats--inclined bench press--sets of pull-ups--leg lifts--set of skull crushers & curls--lat pull downs--ab roll-ups & reverse incline situps--work on left rotator cuff with series of light weight doing forearm pullbacks ( I used to do my rotator work but found that it seemed to inflame my shoulder more than strengthen it)---bench presses--lat rotating pulldowns--stomach crunches--superman and pulldowns using bands. I have switched to this series in November and am starting to find better rotation in my left shoulder. I went 2800 yds using a modified Fort workout today and am experiencing no major discomfort except that my butt is dragging!

swimnbike
January 6th, 2012, 08:35 PM
I've been using Ruth Kazez's "50 swim workouts" for workouts and as a foundation for putting together my own workouts that range in distance from 2100 - 2600 yards / day.

http://ruthkazez.com/50swimworkouts.html

I found them handy for ideas - and even though she markets them for "easy to moderate", I found that adjusting the distance and or time intervals easily create a "moderate to hard" workout.

For longer distance intervals, I've used the "Training Plans for the Multisport Athlete" book (G. Bernhardt), but gear my workouts to max at 2600 yards/day.

bowyer954
January 7th, 2012, 09:05 PM
Hey , thanks for the link--think I will find these usefull

robertsrobson
January 11th, 2012, 04:20 AM
You might also benefit from racing in meets more, so that you can practice dealing with the adrenaline. That condition doesn't exist in practice.

As someone who has done most of their fastest 50s breastroke in 100 races, I'd agree with this advice but add that you should do meets that you don't mind experimenting in. Make yourself stroke out the swim as you might in training and accept that you might not swim your fastest. You might just find that you do. If you're not a natural sprinter, it can come down to trust. I know that I can bash out a decent enough 50 breast, but if I can really trust myself to hold a sensible stroke count I can go faster. Part of my issue is that I don't race that often, so don't take my own medicine!

Fresnoid
January 11th, 2012, 09:51 AM
This is most likely a topic for training but I need some general advice also. I will be 60 at the nationals and swim both BF and FS. I go a 27.66 in the 50 BF, and a 25.29 in the 50 FS. For the 100's it is a 1:03 in the BF and :56 in the FS. I lift 3x/wk and swim 4x/wk. For the most part I train alone. I find if I go much more than 2600 yds in a workout I am close to killing my shoulders. I also should note that even in practice when working on 50's if I go increments faster than 1:15 I can only do about 6 FS. If I am working on BF I need to do the increments at least around 1:30 and then I can only do around 4 of those. If I swim a 100 BF I am about done for the day! My times have been coming down every year but I think if I could get more out of practice I would see much more improvement. A normal workout for me is:
400 warm-up
4X 100 stoke on the 2:30
5 x 100 broken with 10 sec rest on 1st 25 and 1st 50 on 4min
8 x50 stroke on 1:30
400 kick
(3) 4x25 on 45sec
200 cool down

I have followed a lot of the threads and looked at workouts but am searching for something I can do without breaking down--another possibility is that i am just lazy--not sure how to fix that!

Since you train alone, you can set your own schedule. You might consider training more often but don't abuse your shoulders as badly in each workout.

I've battled chronic shoulder problems that limit my yardage for 35 years. Unfortunately, I'm a pure distance guy. I had to sit out two different years in college and ended up partially tearing both rotator cuffs my last year.

I took 9 years off from swimming, trained for 2, took another 13 off, trained for one & am now training again after a 2 year break. Things are going pretty well because I'm doing shorter workouts - no longer than 1 hour.

The shoulders still get aggravated and hurt like hell, but I ice them immediately after practice. They seem to recover enough that I can swim more often.

knelson
January 11th, 2012, 04:52 PM
http://ruthkazez.com/50swimworkouts.html

I found them handy for ideas - and even though she markets them for "easy to moderate"

Just looking at #1 it doesn't seem "easy to moderate" at all! The warmup set is 4x250 free with the first one at 1000 pace and descending by five seconds on each one from there. 1000 pace should not be easy. This is kind of a crazy warmup set in my opinion.

swimnbike
January 11th, 2012, 07:38 PM
Just looking at #1 it doesn't seem "easy to moderate" at all! The warmup set is 4x250 free with the first one at 1000 pace and descending by five seconds on each one from there. 1000 pace should not be easy. This is kind of a crazy warmup set in my opinion.

Agreed - That's why I modify. Or just adjust the "1000 pace" idea. I may start that with a 250 easy, stretched out, or continuous swim with drill, the second 250 focusing on quick turns, the third 250 at a more moderate pace and the final 250 at a "200" pace. Having a focus for the overall workout combined with some creativity helps keep the water fun!

stanflys
January 16th, 2012, 04:25 AM
You have many great suggestions here. I'll add one more about your sleep position. You say you only sleep on your side. Try putting a pillow under your ribs to reduce the stress on your shoulders when on your side. I mash one up into a wedge shape (thin at hips) so the bulk of the pillows holds the bulk of my body bit off the bed, and the shoulder takes a lot less pressure. This makes my shoulders feel so much better. There have been days when I could not do a stroke of fly, and as silly as it sounds, a wedge under my ribs has helped me. The idea came from my Doc.

bowyer954
January 16th, 2012, 07:48 PM
Hey, I'll try anything--thanks for the suggestion!