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jroddin
January 11th, 2012, 12:13 PM
Beginning in 2009, club scoring awards at Nationals have been divided into two separate categories: Regional and Local. A formal description of the two club categories is below (104.5.6B[1] & [2] from page 35-36 of the 2012 USMS Rule Book):

(1)Regional - For competition at national championship meets, a Regional Club consists of a club made up of those swimmers who represent a club at nationals, but at competitions within their LMSC, they compete for an entity or subgroup (such as a workout group) that is different than the one they compete with at nationals.

(2) Local - For competition at national championship meets, a Local Club consists of a club that does not qualify as a Regional Club.

Based on these definitions, the following scoring categories will be in place for 2012 Nationals:

Regional Clubs:
AFAM
AKMS
ARIZ
CMS
FACT
GAJA
HIMA
HMS
IAMA
IM
MICH
MM
NCMS
NEM
NIAG
NMMS
OREG
PNA
SKY
SMS
SWOM
UTAH
WMAC
WMSC

Local Clubs: all other registered USMS clubs.

Please note clubs may contest their designation or the designation of another club by filing an appeal with the chair of the Championship Committee (Jeff Roddin, Championship@usms.org) at least 45 days prior to the national championship meet (those deadlines would be March 12 for Greensboro and May 21 for Omaha).

Jeff Roddin
Championship Committee Chair

Chris Stevenson
January 13th, 2012, 10:12 AM
Oh, woe: my first time competing for an evil regional club. The guilt...it's overwhelming at times...

Chris Stevenson
January 13th, 2012, 12:35 PM
Must be the fact that you have betrayed your beloved VMST.

I prefer to think of it as loyalty to my former teammates in NC. Yeah, that's the ticket.

(Of course, one can argue that VMST is a "local club" in name only, but let's not go there.)

Betsy
January 13th, 2012, 04:50 PM
I can understand you registering with a UNC team, but I don't understand why you would join a large regional club. Why isn't there a UNC Alumni team?

Chris Stevenson
January 13th, 2012, 05:41 PM
I can understand you registering with a UNC team, but I don't understand why you would join a large regional club. Why isn't there a UNC Alumni team?

Actually I am joining to swim with high school teammates; any relays with UNC alums is a bonus. Looks to me that in NC everything is a workout group, except NC Masters (and UNAT of course).

"The structure of our organization is one big parent club, North Carolina Masters Swimming (NCMS) with multiple workout groups"

You can start an independent club, I think (though there aren't any right now) but what's the fun in that? Lots of fast NC men & women to have relays with.

jroddin
May 21st, 2012, 10:29 AM
Beginning in 2009, club scoring awards at Nationals have been divided into two separate categories: Regional and Local. A formal description of the two club categories is below (104.5.6B[1] & [2] from page 35-36 of the 2012 USMS Rule Book):

(1)Regional - For competition at national championship meets, a Regional Club consists of a club made up of those swimmers who represent a club at nationals, but at competitions within their LMSC, they compete for an entity or subgroup (such as a workout group) that is different than the one they compete with at nationals.

(2) Local - For competition at national championship meets, a Local Club consists of a club that does not qualify as a Regional Club.

Based on these definitions, the following scoring categories will be in place for 2012 Nationals:

Regional Clubs:
AFAM
AKMS
ARIZ
CMS
FACT
GAJA
HIMA
HMS
IAMA
IM
MICH
MM
NCMS
NEM
NIAG
NMMS
OREG
PNA
SKY
SMS
SWOM
UTAH
WMAC
WMSC

Local Clubs: all other registered USMS clubs.

Please note clubs may contest their designation or the designation of another club by filing an appeal with the chair of the Championship Committee (Jeff Roddin, Championship@usms.org) at least 45 days prior to the national championship meet (those deadlines would be March 12 for Greensboro and May 21 for Omaha).

Jeff Roddin
Championship Committee Chair

Just a reminder that the deadline to contest club designations for 2012 Summer Nationals is today.

swoomer
July 10th, 2012, 05:40 PM
It seems that the lines are fuzzy in determining who is a regional team and who is a club. How do the state of Nebraska and people from at least 2 states who don't know one another qualify as local teams?

I'm guessing that nobody protested by the deadline, and somehow they technically met the definition. The real club teams don't have a chance while competing with mega-teams. I thought that was why we went to the regional vs. local club concept. I hope this is revisited soon.

Chris Stevenson
July 10th, 2012, 08:38 PM
It seems that the lines are fuzzy in determining who is a regional team and who is a club. How do the state of Nebraska and people from at least 2 states who don't know one another qualify as local teams?

I'm guessing that nobody protested by the deadline, and somehow they technically met the definition. The real club teams don't have a chance while competing with mega-teams. I thought that was why we went to the regional vs. local club concept. I hope this is revisited soon.

God, I sure hope not. It always wastes a lot of time and ultimately just ends up sounding like sour grapes.

The concept doesn't seem very fuzzy: "A Regional Club consists of a club made up of those swimmers who represent a club at nationals, but at competitions within their LMSC, they compete for an entity or subgroup (such as a workout group) that is different." One can, of course, disagree about the appropriateness of the definition. Any definition is going to be problematic both conceptually and practically.

The host club, whether regional or local, has a major advantage at nationals bc of travel. The "mythical national championship (http://www.vaswim.org/mythical-champs/)" (taken from Top 10 rankings) is a little less biased by that factor, though it still exists.

swoomer
July 10th, 2012, 09:16 PM
I am not educated on the history of the definitions, but they seem to defy good sense. A club is a club. We pay dues to the same entity, our coaches get paid by the same entity. We may work out at different sites, but we are essentially a team. This is not sour grapes...just common sense. An LMSC is probably not a team, and therein lies the problem. That's the gray area.

I know people in the know like Chris want to drop this. But as a real team swimmer with a dedicated coach who has pride in his life's work, it is disappointing to continually see his efforts to motivate a real team diminished by a silly definition. Bottom line...a conglomerate of many unrelated workout groups does not constitute a local team.

That Guy
July 10th, 2012, 09:44 PM
I am not educated on the history of the definitions, but they seem to defy good sense. A club is a club. We pay dues to the same entity, our coaches get paid by the same entity. We may work out at different sites, but we are essentially a team. This is not sour grapes...just common sense. An LMSC is probably not a team, and therein lies the problem. That's the gray area.

I know people in the know like Chris want to drop this. But as a real team swimmer with a dedicated coach who has pride in his life's work, it is disappointing to continually see his efforts to motivate a real team diminished by a silly definition. Bottom line...a conglomerate of many unrelated workout groups does not constitute a local team.

Clubs and teams are not the same thing. You seem to be using the two words interchangeably. Don't do that.

swoomer
July 10th, 2012, 10:11 PM
For the purpose of this application, I don't see a difference between "club" and "team." As stated by you and others, there is no category that represents a single team or club that competes as a discreet entity. Where do we fit in?

That Guy
July 10th, 2012, 10:43 PM
For the purpose of this application, I don't see a difference between "club" and "team." As stated by you and others, there is no category that represents a single team or club that competes as a discreet entity. Where do we fit in?

page 3

https://www.clubassistant.com/c/D63FBF8/file/newsletter/2011/2011_12_Wet.pdf

Chris Stevenson
July 11th, 2012, 10:43 AM
it is disappointing to continually see his efforts to motivate a real team diminished by a silly definition.

Is team/club pride really so fragile?

jroddin
July 11th, 2012, 12:18 PM
It seems that the lines are fuzzy in determining who is a regional team and who is a club. How do the state of Nebraska and people from at least 2 states who don't know one another qualify as local teams?

I'm guessing that nobody protested by the deadline, and somehow they technically met the definition. The real club teams don't have a chance while competing with mega-teams. I thought that was why we went to the regional vs. local club concept. I hope this is revisited soon.

There were no protested clubs for 2012 (before or after the deadline). The Nebraska club was indeed evaluated prior to releasing the list of Regional Clubs for 2012 so it wouldn't really have mattered if it got protested or not since they met the definition of a local club.

The Championship Committee evaluates club status strictly based on the USMS Rulebook (specific code cited in the original post).

Jeff Roddin
USMS Championship Committee

swoomer
July 11th, 2012, 06:29 PM
Is team/club pride really so fragile?

I guess if one has pride in his life's work, it is important to be on even footing. We have a very cohesive, supportive unit, as well as a talented coach. It is not a question of being fragile, but one of fairness.

But the rules are the rules. As it is currently, a mega-team can exist in either category which leaves little opportunity for singular club/teams to compete for overall titles.

That Guy
July 11th, 2012, 06:40 PM
I guess if one has pride in his life's work, it is important to be on even footing. We have a very cohesive, supportive unit, as well as a talented coach. It is not a question of being fragile, but one of fairness.

But the rules are the rules. As it is currently, a mega-team can exist in either category which leaves little opportunity for singular club/teams to compete for overall titles.
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is 'Never get involved in a land war in Asia,' but only slightly less well known is this: 'Never worry about the score at a Masters swim meet.'

swoomer
July 11th, 2012, 07:38 PM
If it's not important, then why do we score teams at all? If you mean it's a forbidden subject, there would be a reason for that.

As I see it, based on some of the comments, some people like it just the way it is and don't like anyone rocking the boat or asking questions. I'm sure it took a lot of work to get to the current definitions, and those who participated feel a sense of ownership. I get that.

However, unless you're a stand alone club, you wouldn't understand the frustration. I think when you have a dynamic coach, work out with the same people every day, socialize with them, and support one another on a daily basis, you do forge a strong "team" bond that probably doesn't exist in most conglomerate groups. As competitors, we like to win, or at least have a fair shot at winning. Is that so wrong?

Chris Stevenson
July 11th, 2012, 08:48 PM
I guess if one has pride in his life's work, it is important to be on even footing.

There is no such thing as equal footing. For example you can have regional clubs in states that have no LCM pools at all and/or low population densities, and local clubs in states where it is not uncommon for a HS to have two long course pools.


I'm sure it took a lot of work to get to the current definitions, and those who participated feel a sense of ownership. I get that.

However, unless you're a stand alone club, you wouldn't understand the frustration. I think when you have a dynamic coach, work out with the same people every day, socialize with them, and support one another on a daily basis, you do forge a strong "team" bond that probably doesn't exist in most conglomerate groups. As competitors, we like to win, or at least have a fair shot at winning. Is that so wrong?

No, I seriously doubt I would ever understand the frustration you describe no matter what club I am on, bc the score has no impact on my bond with other swimmers.

I can only speak for myself, but it is not any sense of ownership of the current rules that makes me reluctant to address the issue, but simply a desire to avoid re-fighting a battle that wasnt worth the effort the first (and second) time around. There will never be a rule that satisfies everyone. Certainly my own preferred solution of abolishing both workout groups AND scoring categories would probably annoy all parties equally, but it has the virtue of satisfying the KISS principle.

Allen Stark
July 11th, 2012, 09:23 PM
The local club is always going to have an advantage.I used to think that was unfair and thought there should be a way to weigh distance traveled into the equation.Now I think it is fine.Get as many local people to come as possible.Get as many new people into meets as you can.Whatever gets people involved is good.