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cclarke
January 23rd, 2012, 09:32 PM
I was planning on heading to Omaha for summer nationals and just noticed that the 400 free, 100 back, 200 free, and 200 IM are all on the same
day - Sunday. I think most folks that swim free also swim back and IM? This is a pretty heavy load for one day. Is this just me and couldn't these events be spread across other days where it would be more evenly spread?

Rob Copeland
January 24th, 2012, 09:22 AM
couldn't these events be spread across other days where it would be more evenly spread? Not for this meet.

Chris Stevenson
January 24th, 2012, 10:55 AM
I was planning on heading to Omaha for summer nationals and just noticed that the 400 free, 100 back, 200 free, and 200 IM are all on the same
day - Sunday. I think most folks that swim free also swim back and IM? This is a pretty heavy load for one day. Is this just me and couldn't these events be spread across other days where it would be more evenly spread?

The order of events rotates between 3 schedules, although the Championship committee can make changes (usually at the request of the meet host). The schedules get voted on by the House of Delegates every 3-4 years I think. The schedules with the most votes win. Certainly not everyone is happy with every schedule, but majority rules.

The nice thing is that nationals is big enough that there is a lot of time between events even if you pick ones that are back-to-back.

One thing I do sometimes is look at nationals schedule and if I don't feel like "piling on" one day to get all my usual events, I'll pick an event or two that I usually don't do tapered. It is kind of fun, and you often set personal bests. Last summer I swam 50 fly LCM for the first time (tapered) as a masters swimmer, for example. In Atlanta I swam all three IMs even though I usually avoid them like the plague.

(I am not sure I agree with your statement that "most folks that swim free also swim back and IM.")

sickfish
January 24th, 2012, 11:14 AM
Pretty much every meet I'm going to this year has fly events immediately after free events. I tried at a long course meet last year to do a 200 fly immediately (less than 10 minutes) after a 100 free, and let's just say it didn't go well. Don't most people who do free also do fly? ;)

Like the post above says, it's different at nationals because there are so many swimmers you'd have a really hard time finding two races where you don't have at least a good 30 minutes to recover.

I suspect that most everyone has their own version of this, since so many people do (one thing) + (something else). I figure it's just the luck of the draw this year; in other years it will be the free + breastroke swimmers that get to try to do their events back-to-back.

Jeff Commings
January 24th, 2012, 11:14 AM
I agree with Chris on the ability to swim back-to-back events at nationals. You usually have 45 minutes to an hour between events.

However, I have a feeling the downtime will be longer in Omaha. I suspect we'll see more than 1,000 swimmers, and even if they start from both ends of the pool, the days will run pretty long.

knelson
January 24th, 2012, 11:21 AM
There's plenty of time between events, but still no one wants to swim four events in a day. The unusual thing to me is that the 200 and 400 free are on the same day, but I know the order of events is always a "you can please some of the people some of the time..." proposition.

Personally I want to see Clarke swim all four events that day. :)

Rich Abrahams
January 24th, 2012, 11:38 AM
Another option is swimming one or more of your races in a longer event and getting a split request. I've never done it at nationals but I often do it at our state meet where there isn't much time between back-to-back events. I've gotten in a 100 fly at the beginning of a 400 IM and a 200 free at the beginning of the 1,000. You could do your 100 back at the front end of the 200 back and your 200 or 400 free during the 1,000 on distance day. Just make sure of 3 things: swim the remainder of your race legally; enter a seed time that accurately reflects what you'll eventually go for the entire race and notify the officials and the swimmers in the lanes adjacent to you so they don't freak out when you take off at the very beginning.

matysekj
January 24th, 2012, 11:51 AM
Personally I want to see Clarke swim all four events that day. :)
Actually, he can't. At our national championships you are limited to a maximum of 3 individual events a day.

knelson
January 24th, 2012, 11:57 AM
Actually, he can't. At our national championships you are limited to a maximum of 3 individual events a day.

You had to go and spoil it, didn't you?

I'm curious now what the rationale for this rule is. Why can't someone swim four events in a day?

matysekj
January 24th, 2012, 12:10 PM
Sorry about that. :sad:

This rule has been there for a long time. I believe it's a way to keep the days from going to 3 in the morning. Many people can't get the vacation time to attend Thursday and Friday or just don't want to be away from family those days. Because of this, Saturday and Sunday are already the busiest days of the meets, and particularly Saturday. If people could swim the usual up to 5 events per day, it's likely that this would happen the most on Saturday and make that day go really long.

aquageek
January 24th, 2012, 12:39 PM
Why can't someone swim four events in a day?

I just completed a few hours of investigating this and I found it in paragraph 4, subsection 20 of the USMS General Code aka The Swimma Carta. It is also called "the sprinters addendum." Specifically since sprinters can't do 4 events over the course of a month they lobbied matysekj (http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/princesasonya/david-hot-pink-speedo.jpg), who immediately caved, that no one should be able to do four events a day. Reliable sources have indicated that for his acquiescence he was given a pink thong Speedo.

The Fortress
January 24th, 2012, 12:50 PM
Another option is swimming one or more of your races in a longer event and getting a split request. I've never done it at nationals but I often do it at our state meet where there isn't much time between back-to-back events. I've gotten in a 100 fly at the beginning of a 400 IM and a 200 free at the beginning of the 1,000. You could do your 100 back at the front end of the 200 back and your 200 or 400 free during the 1,000 on distance day. Just make sure of 3 things: swim the remainder of your race legally; enter a seed time that accurately reflects what you'll eventually go for the entire race and notify the officials and the swimmers in the lanes adjacent to you so they don't freak out when you take off at the very beginning.

Following the sprinters addendum/credo, I use split requests fairly often to avoid back to back events or give me the hours and hours of rest I need to recover fully. I've done it at Nationals and Zones as well. In my experience, and not falling into the cclarke mode, fly and back sprints are often back to back. Though I have noticed a trend in meets I entered in 2011 for the 100 fly and 50 free to be back to back. And I will not climb on the blocks for a 50 free right after an exhausting and seemingly endless 100 fly.

I sent Matysekj coffee beans and jolt gum.

cclarke
January 24th, 2012, 02:16 PM
Another option is swimming one or more of your races in a longer event and getting a split request. I've never done it at nationals but I often do it at our state meet where there isn't much time between back-to-back events.

Rich good advice here - thanks. If a split time is requested will those times officially count as times for consideration for Top 10? It looks like I can do 100 back as lead off on a relay and do either 400 or 200 free as part of the 1,500 or 800 free - good options. Do you just request this at the meet or does it have to be done prior to the meet - anything else that needs to be done?

cclarke
January 24th, 2012, 02:22 PM
Personally I want to see Clarke swim all four events that day. :)

Nelson I would like to bet another case of beer on doing the same four events if you will agree to them as well? Kind of a "double or quits" bet?:chug:

cclarke
January 24th, 2012, 02:35 PM
The schedules get voted on by the House of Delegates every 3-4 years I think. The schedules with the most votes win. Certainly not everyone is happy with every schedule, but majority rules.

(I am not sure I agree with your statement that "most folks that swim free also swim back and IM.")

Thanks for the technical process clarification Chris.

Must have been a lot of sprinters and swimmers that do not swim Free, IM, and Back voting this time around - Darn flyers and breastrokers!! Haha :bump:

jroddin
January 24th, 2012, 03:16 PM
You had to go and spoil it, didn't you?

I'm curious now what the rationale for this rule is. Why can't someone swim four events in a day?

Many years ago our medical advisors suggested we put a limit on the number of individual events per day at masters meets. However, the limit is only for individual events and swimmers may swim each relay so to me that's not very consistent. Anyway, the rulebook limit of five individual events per day applies to all sanctioned masters meets (any meet may further limit that number but may not increase it). At Nationals the limit was reduced to three per day partly for health considerations but primarily because of what Jim said above.

Jeff

knelson
January 24th, 2012, 04:06 PM
Nelson I would like to bet another case of beer on doing the same four events if you will agree to them as well? Kind of a "double or quits" bet?:chug:

Well, darn, since the rules say we can't do four events in a day I guess I can't agree to the bet! No way I'd pick the 100 back to swim, anyway. :)

If I make it to Omaha at a minimum I'll buy you a beer or two. :chug:

Chris Stevenson
January 24th, 2012, 05:25 PM
If a split time is requested will those times officially count as times for consideration for Top 10? It looks like I can do 100 back as lead off on a relay and do either 400 or 200 free as part of the 1,500 or 800 free - good options. Do you just request this at the meet or does it have to be done prior to the meet - anything else that needs to be done?

Nationals is unique in this regard. The rules state that one must request splits so that they may be submitted for top ten consideration; technically speaking, backstroke splits and all relay leadoffs must be requested before the event (so that the S&T judges can verify a legal backstroke finish or that the 2nd relay swimmer doesn't start in the water or otherwise interfere with the finish) while other split requests can be submitted anytime before the end of the meet.

At nationals, however, the host can agree to submit all non-backstroke splits -- including relay leadoffs -- for TT consideration. (To comply with the rules, I think the requests are submitted FOR you by someone else -- Kathy Casey I believe.) You should read the meet information carefully to confirm this, but if true then you don't have to do anything for your splits to be submitted for TT.

Rob Copeland
January 24th, 2012, 05:32 PM
and even if they start from both ends of the pool, the days will run pretty long.We will be starting from both ends of the pool. Unfortunately, not chase starts like I think you are alluding to.

Since we are using Omega pads and cameras for timing we only have one finish end. So the 50’s will start from the far end and all other races will start and finish at the near end.

Allen Stark
January 24th, 2012, 07:48 PM
I just completed a few hours of investigating this and I found it in paragraph 4, subsection 20 of the USMS General Code aka The Swimma Carta. It is also called "the sprinters addendum." Specifically since sprinters can't do 4 events over the course of a month they lobbied matysekj (http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/princesasonya/david-hot-pink-speedo.jpg), who immediately caved, that no one should be able to do four events a day. Reliable sources have indicated that for his acquiescence he was given a pink thong Speedo.
It has been proven that it takes longer to get your lactic acid back to normal after a sprint than after a distance event, so of course sprinters need more rest.
(insert generic sprinters vs distance swimmer comment here.:bolt:)

cclarke
January 24th, 2012, 08:45 PM
It has been proven that it takes longer to get your lactic acid back to normal after a sprint than after a distance event, so of course sprinters need more rest.
(insert generic sprinters vs distance swimmer comment here.:bolt:)

We used to say in college "Never send a sprinter in to do a man's job" - still holds true today! :bliss:

cclarke
January 24th, 2012, 08:48 PM
Nationals is unique in this regard. The rules state that one must request splits so that they may be submitted for top ten consideration; technically speaking, backstroke splits and all relay leadoffs must be requested before the event (so that the S&T judges can verify a legal backstroke finish or that the 2nd relay swimmer doesn't start in the water or otherwise interfere with the finish) while other split requests can be submitted anytime before the end of the meet.

Thanks for the info and contact here I will definitely look into this as I firm up my schedule of events for Omaha.

Swimosaur
January 25th, 2012, 09:22 AM
Since we are using Omega pads and cameras for timing we only have one finish end. So the 50ís will start from the far end and all other races will start and finish at the near end.

I hope this is plainly, clearly, and loudly marked at the meet. I saw one older gentleman at the last LCM nats at Auburn who did not understand this, and he missed his heat. It was sad.

orca1946
January 27th, 2012, 12:26 AM
It's great for those of you that have splits that can be records!!:applaud: