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Cleon
February 10th, 2012, 02:49 PM
Tried my new wetsuit out at the Y. Water temp around 80. Works very well, but too
warm to do much of a workout. Question: What water temp would be the line for wetsuit
or no wetsuit? Is there a temp set by the event?

Kris Calvin
February 10th, 2012, 04:24 PM
The answer to that question is going to be different for every person. Some, as you've seen from other posts, won't use a wetsuit no matter what the temp. Everybody generates a different level of body heat with a given activity, so that and the distance swum will all be factors. Two years ago I swam Elk Lake with a wetsuit at with temps around 68* and took some playful ribbing as a result. In my defense I was just trying to get used to the wetsuit in preparation for a 10K up in Alaska the following week. a 5K in 68* water proved too warm for me, but I love the xtra speed I get with the suit. Last year temp was about 62 and I was one of only a few to go without wetsuit. In hindsight I wish I had used my suit at that temp. The great thing about using the suit in cold water is that at least for me I look forward to the experience, instead of dreading the time spent getting numb, then taking so long after the swim to talk right again.

freestylesail
February 10th, 2012, 11:40 PM
I wouldnt take the wetsuit in the pool other than that one time trying it bc chlorine significantly shortens its life. you may know that already. As far as cutoff temps I agree with the other poster...different for everyone. I swam in 68 water/50 air last weekend and felt really cold after a half hour. To others that's no big deal.

ALM
February 11th, 2012, 12:19 PM
Some events have a temperature cutoff and won't allow wetsuits if the water is above a certain temperature.

As the other posters said, everyone has a different level of tolerance for cold water. I am a "cold water wimp" and get cold easily. We do one-hour open water workouts about once a week, year-round, and this is my personal guideline (it also depends on whether the sun is out and what the air temperature is):

Water 74 or above: no wetsuit
Water 73 to 64: sleeveless, knee-length wetsuit
Water 63 to 55: long-sleeved, full-length wetsuit

I haven't swum in water colder than 55.

swimnbike
February 11th, 2012, 08:03 PM
Here are the rules from USA Triathlon:

Wetsuits: Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wetsuit without penalty in any event sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water temperature is greater than 78 degrees but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wetsuit at their own discretion, provided, however that participants who wears a wetsuit within such temperature range shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Above 84 degrees, wetsuits are prohibited.

(http://www.usatriathlon.org/about-multisport/rulebook/most-common-violations.aspx)

I've always used this as a guideline for whether to wear a wetsuit or not - although in my experience, I've found I really didn't need it when the water was 74 degrees and higher (I only have a full/long sleeve wetsuit). I agree with Kris about the extra buoyancy when swimming - Its like swimming downhill. But 68 is downright cold for me!

chaos
February 11th, 2012, 10:31 PM
Here are the rules from USA Triathlon:

Wetsuits: Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wetsuit without penalty in any event sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water temperature is greater than 78 degrees but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wetsuit at their own discretion, provided, however that participants who wears a wetsuit within such temperature range shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Above 84 degrees, wetsuits are prohibited.


triathletes have no shame

ViveBene
February 12th, 2012, 07:08 AM
triathletes have no shame

I have heard they are also allowed to hang on to the escort craft when they get tired, without penalty.
:bolt:

orca1946
February 15th, 2012, 05:20 PM
I have used my sleeve less wetsuit when it's below 68 .
That seems the ok temp. for me to wear it.

knelson
February 15th, 2012, 06:31 PM
triathletes have no shame

It's pretty silly. FINA rules for pool swimming state the pool temperature should be between 25 and 28 degrees C. 25 C is 77 F, so triathletes would be allowed to wear wetsuits at the low end of what FINA allows for pools!

chaos
February 15th, 2012, 10:41 PM
It's pretty silly. FINA rules for pool swimming state the pool temperature should be between 25 and 28 degrees C. 25 C is 77 F, so triathletes would be allowed to wear wetsuits at the low end of what FINA allows for pools!

and then everyone says... I didn't want to wear a wetsuit; but everyone else was wearing one and I didn't want to give up the advantage so......

Rykno
February 16th, 2012, 04:33 AM
under 60F I use a wetsuit and a neoprene cap under my silicone cap

between 60-66 I use a wetsuit depending on distance and airtemp and only a silicone cap

67+ and I get too hot in a wetsuit after only 20min swimming, but I still wear a cap so I can be seen in the water

Cleon
February 17th, 2012, 09:49 AM
Thanks to every one. The problem I have is when I was young cold was OK. No cap no wet suit no problem. Now at age 70 I get cold easily. "The older the colder." Think it will depend on the distance, air temp, and water temp. Thanks again for all of the information.

mjtyson
February 18th, 2012, 03:12 AM
triathletes have no shame

I got beat by a triathlete in a 2 mile OW swim in NC. He ran past me out of the lake holding his pull buoy. Seriously.

That Guy
February 18th, 2012, 11:33 AM
He ran past me out of the lake holding his pull buoy. Seriously.

OK, that's pretty funny right there.

swimmer25k
March 15th, 2012, 02:12 PM
OK, that's pretty funny right there.


I even hear that there are "noodle" waves now for triathletes.

Race directors want $$$, so they allow wetsuits to keep the numbers up for their events. It obviously also allows a greater number of people to be exposed to events that they wouldn't otherwise do thereby promoting the sport.

During the old IMSA pro days the only thing you were allowed to have was a suit, goggles, one cap (silicone/latex), and ear-plugs. Part of what separates an OW event from everything else is how you can deal with the conditions as well as the distance. My hardest swims were 15K ocean training sessions before the English Channel. The first day the water was 50 and the second day it was 48. I froze my ass off, but came out of it hard as nails.

True OW marathons will greatly reward the tougher swimmers; not necessarily the fastest.

Look at the shear number of people at the starting line for any Ironman event and compare it to the beach before the Tampa Bay marathon swim. Wimps need not apply.

KatieK
March 15th, 2012, 07:04 PM
I'm not a fan of wetsuits. At all. And, of course, the pull buoy thing is an abomination.

But, in defense of my triathlete buddies, I have to say: I don't see how you could get on a bike after swimming 2.4 miles sans wetsuit in cold water. You'd either have a l-o-n-g transition, or you'd freeze (maybe literally) on the bike.

E=H2O
March 15th, 2012, 07:41 PM
When I was training to do a half iron distance triathlon in 2009 I dropped down to 168 lb. I did a nearly 2 hour open water swim @ 60 along with a single and double Alcatraz @ 59. I definitely felt cold after I got out. I was in great shape overall and pushed myself hard which generated a lot of heat. This year I did a 5 1/2 hour swim in 59 water and never got cold. I was 200 lb. I was swimming much faster, but arguably not in as good shape. I also barely noticed the 65 water on my Catalina crossing, or the 5 drop at the upwelling near the mainland, and I can assure you I was swimming slow.

As you might imagine, I think the extra fat helps. I do believe that as you get older you lose muscle mass so you can't generate as much heat. I also strongly feel that much of people's problems with swimming in cold water can be overcome through proper mental preparation. You need to learn the difference between feeling that the water is cold, and feeling that you are cold. The former needs to be identified and ignored. The latter needs to be addressed.

PS: I wore a wetsuit when racing in triathlons for the speed advantage. I was not going to give up the advantage that WS provide.

orca1946
March 16th, 2012, 02:21 PM
In Chicago - wet suits are not able to get awards in the Big Shoulders swim.

Trail.dog1
March 31st, 2012, 09:17 PM
Whats so bad about wetsuits?

chaos
April 1st, 2012, 11:55 AM
Whats so bad about wetsuits?

nothing, until one learns to swim without them..........

Trail.dog1
April 1st, 2012, 12:08 PM
nothing, until one learns to swim without them..........

So its like riding a bike with training wheels? Or is it a purist kind of thing?

The coldest water I've swum in was probably somewhere in the mid 70's. After a couple hundered meters I ended up liking the 'coldness' of it. But I'm a very lean guy - 5% body fat or so. It seems like I'd actually NEED a wesuit in cold water.

E=H2O
April 1st, 2012, 01:56 PM
Whats so bad about wetsuits?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wetsuits, the problem is with the people who wear them. [SARC INT]

(I honestly have no problem with people wearing wetsuits in OW swimming, so long as they are in a separate categorie than the non-wetsuit swimmers. The more people who participate in the sport, the better. Please google SARC INT if you don't know what it means.)

Rob Copeland
April 2nd, 2012, 09:19 AM
So its like riding a bike with training wheels? Or is it a purist kind of thing?Id say it is a purist kind of thing.

We have a group that does training swims in a local lake almost year round. Most of the swimmers wear wet suits when the temp gets below 65-68 and some will wear wetsuits into the low 80s. Some of the elitist/purist/snobs (ME) only put on the wetsuit when it gets below 50F. It all depends on what your body can handle and how much you want to push your limits.

However, I would much prefer to see folks in the water in a wetsuit than not swimming at all or hypothermic. And I dont suggest trying to test your cold water limits without understanding the danger signs of hypothermia.


There is absolutely nothing wrong with wetsuits, OR the people who wear them.

Trail.dog1
April 2nd, 2012, 03:23 PM
Id say it is a purist kind of thing.

We have a group that does training swims in a local lake almost year round. Most of the swimmers wear wet suits when the temp gets below 65-68 and some will wear wetsuits into the low 80s. Some of the elitist/purist/snobs (ME) only put on the wetsuit when it gets below 50F. It all depends on what your body can handle and how much you want to push your limits.

However, I would much prefer to see folks in the water in a wetsuit than not swimming at all or hypothermic. And I dont suggest trying to test your cold water limits without understanding the danger signs of hypothermia.

Today I went for a swim in a new pool (new to me, it was my first time in that pool). While I was waiting for the aqua aerobics class to finish up and the lap swimming to begin I put my toes in to feel the water - warm. The guy there said they keep the pool in the mid 80's. I have to say I really didnt care for it at all! My first set was 2k yards and I was feeling smothered by the warm water every single lap! Every stroke it seemed! My next two sets were more comfortable, but I had to make myself put the temperature out of my thoughts.

The cold water used to be kind of intimidating, and I'm sure it would take some getting used to. I think it was only yesterday I was assuming my lean body would need a wetsuit to stay warm. But after todays swim I feel much more willing to skip a wetsuit if the water is colder. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, I may be feeling a bit eager to swim in colder water.

:bow:

orca1946
April 2nd, 2012, 04:31 PM
Wearing a wetsuit in water that is 80 can be dangerous!!!!
50's You will really need it
60's good to use
70's might be ok
80 ---- think of a cooked sausage in a container!!!!!

ChrisM
April 2nd, 2012, 07:01 PM
Whats so bad about wetsuits?


Nothing. There is just this purist holier than thou attitude among some OW swimmers (all present company excepted, of course :) ) who see a wetsuit as a crutch. I do tris and OW swims. Most OW swims forbid wetsuits so I don't wear one. All west coast tris allow them (and some rightly so for some, just did Oceanside 70.3 last weekend at 58 degrees). Do some triathletes suck and wear it for assisted buoyancy? Yup. Is wearing a wetsuit in too -warm wter stupid and poentially dangerous? Yup

But OW swimemrs I guess don't really realize that OW swimming is a different sport than a triathlon, where you have to get out of the water and do something other than sit on the beach sipping water looking at the girls (OK, that's what I do in OW swims). Not only is it a buoyancy issue, and thus speed, but an energy conservation issue. Takes a lot of energy to immerse yourself in 58 degree water. Then you have to ride for 2-3 hours and run for 2 hours.

Westuits are an allowed tool in the sport. Just as disc wheels, aero helmets, blah blah blah. Use them if you are smart. Don't use them if you want to stand on principle. And the more you beat without wearing a suit, the stronger you can thump your chest.

Long story short, you use the tools that are available to you to gain whatever advantage you can. I bet every swimmer here would have used the now banned speedsuits if they were still allowed (and they could afford them). Funny how that works.

ETA - All (most) of the west coast swims here take place between July and Sept, when the water temps go mid 60s or above, so no wetsuits are necessary, even though allowed. Despite my post above, I would never enter the newly added wetsuit division of our biggest 2 mile pier to pier (added after the non summer of 2010 caused lo water temps and a number of DNFs and hypothermia cases), because it's just wrong for that race. :)

chaos
April 2nd, 2012, 07:18 PM
I bet every swimmer here would have used the now banned speedsuits if they were still allowed (and they could afford them). Funny how that works.


you'd lose that one.

Chicken of the Sea
April 2nd, 2012, 10:13 PM
I guess this won't win me any popularity contests, and is possibly a little off topic, but here goes:

The ability to withstand, and even enjoy swimming in cold water doesn't happen by accident. It's not some pill you can take or some magic ability some people have and others don't. It's nearly always the result of a lot of hard work and training, just like running a marathon or doing a triathlon (or swimming a fast pool swim!!).

I think the "snob" label some non-wetsuit swimmers get is a little unfair. I definitely get very annoyed when I'm told I "don't feel the cold" or am just "built for it" because that trivializes a lot of my hard work! I have personally invited people who say those kinds of things to me to come to the lake with me and watch me shiver. I believe non-wetsuit "snobs" are just trying to maintain what should be a huge distinction between wetsuit and non wetsuit swims. They are just not the same animal and do not compare at all. Hence the disqualification of wetsuits from awards in some races.

If people don't have the time or just don't want to put in the training required to swim in cold water without a wetsuit, fine. In my mind, though, it's the equivalent of showing up to Canada or Lake Placid with a motor on your bike because you didn't feel like training for the hills.

Chicken of the Sea
April 2nd, 2012, 10:21 PM
Also, I love water. I love swimming and the feel of water on my skin and can't imagine wanting to be removed from this feeling.

evmo
April 3rd, 2012, 12:18 AM
What she said. Listen to the Chicken.


There is just this purist holier than thou attitude among some OW swimmers... who see a wetsuit as a crutch.

Of course it's a crutch! Unless wearing a wetsuit is inherently pleasurable - which I doubt even the most enthusiastic wetsuit proponents believe - then it follows that it is a crutch.

Why do people wear wetsuits? Why do they spend the money to buy them, or take the time to put them on, or put up with the chaffing they cause?

Because they think the water is too cold, or because they think it will make them faster.

Looks like a crutch... walks like a crutch... smells like a crutch....

E=H2O
April 3rd, 2012, 01:31 AM
What she said. Listen to the Chicken.



Of course it's a crutch! Unless wearing a wetsuit is inherently pleasurable - which I doubt even the most enthusiastic wetsuit proponents believe - then it logically follows that it is a crutch.

Why do people wear wetsuits? Why do they spend the money to buy them, or take the time to put them on, or put up with the chaffing they cause?

Because they think the water is too cold, or because they think it will make them faster.

Looks like a crutch... walks like a crutch... smells like a crutch....


Why did I wear a wetsuit in triathlons? The same reason I bought a tri TT bike. It's legal and faster. Have I ever worn a wetsuit in an open water race or swim? No, but I did wear a speed suit once. Why not? It surely isn't because I like to swim in cold water. I like 68 to 74. I only swim in cold water because the places I want to swim have cold water. It's the same reason why I would go out into the Alaskan wilderness in sub zero weather. It just happened to be that cold when I wanted to go. I would have enjoyed it more in the 15 to 25

Frankly I think water temperature is arbitrary. Records for Catalina show that you can find 60 degrees one summer, but 72 on another. Is there anything wrong with waiting for a year when the water is warm? If it is a warm year, should you wait until it gets cold?

As for training for cold water, I think it is primarily mental, until your in 60 degree water for 10 hours, give or take. I did absolutely no training outside a 83 degree pool before swimming in the SF Bay at 59 for 5 1/2 hours. And outside of that swim I did no swimming out of that same pool leading up to Catalina at 65 to 66 , not,counting the 5 degree drop near the mainland.

I guess I don't wear a wetsuit in an open water swim because . . . Not really sure now that I think about it. It isn't because the cause irritation. A high end suit that fits you well is hardly noticeable at the start, and not at all after that. I guess I don't wear one because of peer pressure, but that means I'll never do a swim in Alaska.

chaos
April 3rd, 2012, 07:26 AM
I guess this won't win me any popularity contests, and is possibly a little off topic, but here goes:

The ability to withstand, and even enjoy swimming in cold water doesn't happen by accident. It's not some pill you can take or some magic ability some people have and others don't. It's nearly always the result of a lot of hard work and training, just like running a marathon or doing a triathlon (or swimming a fast pool swim!!).

I think the "snob" label some non-wetsuit swimmers get is a little unfair. I definitely get very annoyed when I'm told I "don't feel the cold" or am just "built for it" because that trivializes a lot of my hard work! I have personally invited people who say those kinds of things to me to come to the lake with me and watch me shiver. I believe non-wetsuit "snobs" are just trying to maintain what should be a huge distinction between wetsuit and non wetsuit swims. They are just not the same animal and do not compare at all. Hence the disqualification of wetsuits from awards in some races.

If people don't have the time or just don't want to put in the training required to swim in cold water without a wetsuit, fine. In my mind, though, it's the equivalent of showing up to Canada or Lake Placid with a motor on your bike because you didn't feel like training for the hills.

couldn't have said it better

Rob Copeland
April 3rd, 2012, 08:54 AM
There is just this purist holier than thou attitude among some OW swimmers (all present company excepted, of course :) ) who see a wetsuit as a crutch.Chris, as a member of the purist holier than thou OW swimmer sect, I dont see wetsuits as a crutch I see wetsuits as equipment; similar to cap and goggles.

But I guess it depends on your definition of crutch. If you mean it as something that supports somebody who is otherwise liable to falter, then I agree that things such as goggles and wetsuits are crutches.

Note to Evan Im not sure where you find your wetsuits and crutches, by my wetsuit doesnt look like or smell like a crutch .;)

ChrisM
April 3rd, 2012, 01:45 PM
Why did I wear a wetsuit in triathlons? The same reason I bought a tri TT bike. It's legal and faster. Have I ever worn a wetsuit in an open water race or swim? No, but I did wear a speed suit once. Why not? It surely isn't because I like to swim in cold water. I like 68 to 74. I only swim in cold water because the places I want to swim have cold water. It's the same reason why I would go out into the Alaskan wilderness in sub zero weather. It just happened to be that cold when I wanted to go. I would have enjoyed it more in the 15 to 25

Frankly I think water temperature is arbitrary. Records for Catalina show that you can find 60 degrees one summer, but 72 on another. Is there anything wrong with waiting for a year when the water is warm? If it is a warm year, should you wait until it gets cold?

As for training for cold water, I think it is primarily mental, until your in 60 degree water for 10 hours, give or take. I did absolutely no training outside a 83 degree pool before swimming in the SF Bay at 59 for 5 1/2 hours. And outside of that swim I did no swimming out of that same pool leading up to Catalina at 65 to 66 , not,counting the 5 degree drop near the mainland.

I guess I don't wear a wetsuit in an open water swim because . . . Not really sure now that I think about it. It isn't because the cause irritation. A high end suit that fits you well is hardly noticeable at the start, and not at all after that. I guess I don't wear one because of peer pressure, but that means I'll never do a swim in Alaska.

Yup. Which is why the OW swimmers here who don't also do triathlons (not making any characterizations about that at all) I guess don't get that you use the tools that are legally available to you in triathlons. If you do triathlons in colder water and don't wear a wetsuit that's just poor race strategy, unless you like playing catch up all day long.

I am sure in OW swimmers' eyes that makes us triathletes weaker, wimpier, not willing to work hard enough, blah blah blah. Whatever. And the analogy to motorized bikes at an IM is a non sequitur. Motors are illegal. Wetsuits aren't (at those races). I wouldn't think that's a difficult concept to grasp.

It's different for OW swimming as a solo sport. I totally get that. And I get that this is an OW swimming board, so the opinions will be skewed a certain way, and rightly so. Triathlon swimming is to OW swim races as the run in an IM is to marathons. Each is a totally different animal, even though they involve the same basic sport.

I actually prefer swimming without a wetsuit. But if you are going to allow me to use a tool in a triathlon which will (1) allow me to swim faster and (2) stay warmer thus conserving energy for the bike and run, I'm going with that option.

chaos
April 3rd, 2012, 03:50 PM
Note to Evan Im not sure where you find your wetsuits and crutches, by my wetsuit doesnt look like or smell like a crutch .;)

nothing personal, but i would bet dollars to doughnuts that your wetsuit smells much worse

chaos
April 3rd, 2012, 05:21 PM
But if you are going to allow me to use a tool in a triathlon which will (1) allow me to swim faster and (2) stay warmer thus conserving energy for the bike and run, I'm going with that option.

This is essentially the same argument that was made in favor of tech suits. Yes... there is no denying that many competitors will embrace every technical advantage that is made available to them, even to the point where the very nature of the activity they are participating in becomes completely different from what it was before said "technical advances". Bravo if it makes you more competitive... but there is still only room for 3 on the podium.

The swim leg of a triathlon is not the same thing as an OW swim. The whole sport seems to favor making the swim as easy and short as possible. Reason: To encourage mass participation (read $$$$$), even to the point where really poor swimmers are likely to enter. There is a company now marketing wetsuits with EXTRA floatation built in. Yes, I think the training wheel analogy is appropriate.

Call me a relic if you want... I'm also the guy with the Rossin steel frame (Columbus SL tubing), Campy Super Record 12 speed, sew-ups, friction shifters on the drop, and leather hair net.

ChrisM
April 3rd, 2012, 06:38 PM
The swim leg of a triathlon is not the same thing as an OW swim. The whole sport seems to favor making the swim as easy and short as possible. Reason: To encourage mass participation (read $$$$$), even to the point where really poor swimmers are likely to enter. There is a company now marketing wetsuits with EXTRA floatation built in. Yes, I think the training wheel analogy is appropriate.



Sadly, can't disagree there, and the industry has to deal with calls for legislation every year when the inevitable death occurs, even if it's the result of something completely irrelevant to fitness level.

Triathletes as a general rule are poor swimmers. I am certainly not fast when compared to true swimmers and was well within the top 10% OA at Oceanside 70.3 last weekend at :30. Some people will actually not do a race if they can't wear their wetsuits. That's sad. Then there are the 25 minute 1.2 mile half ironman guys and girls. The huge majority are somewhere in the middle.

The De Soto 5mm suit, if that is what you are referring to, is specifically banned at WTC events, by the way

I don't care that a RD sets rules to increase participation. At the end of the day, the more people that participate in my sport means that more events will be put on, which means that I get to race more. Races that don't get support die. In my naive and ideal world, people will not enter races for which they are not prepared.

geog
April 3rd, 2012, 09:04 PM
+1 @ chicken of the sea
+1 @ leather hair net

the speed argument holds for podium contenders. most though
are competing against themselves, training to swim faster than
they did previously. their victories are huge ... and independent
of attire.

the bicycle analogy is encumber by the fact that a bike is required
for cycling, whereas a wetsuit is not required for swimming.

non-insulating positively-buoyant wetsuits for warm water

cone-head speed caps

gps enabled goggles

E=H2O
April 3rd, 2012, 09:46 PM
Te swim leg of a triathlon is not the same thing as an OW swim. The whole sport seems to favor making the swim as easy and short as possible. Reason: To encourage mass participation (read $$$$$), even to the point where really poor swimmers are likely to enter.

I am SO TIRED of hearing the criticism and The belittling of the swim leg of triathlons by people who have no idea what it is all about. Let me make it perfectly clear right now, if it wasn't for the swim leg in triathlons I would never be able to relive the joy I had 30 years ago swimming near the front of an open water race. Outside of USAT Nationals I always finished in the top 3% to 8% in the swim, and finished 3rd overall 2 years in a row in fields of over 250 people in the race (it had a longer than normal swim leg). Please don't take that away from me.


Call me a relic if you want... I'm also the guy with the Rossin steel frame (Columbus SL tubing), Campy Super Record 12 speed, sew-ups, friction shifters on the drop, and leather hair net.

Unless to are riding a 10 speed with down tube shifters and a Reynolds steel frame and Campy Nuovo Record components you can't claim to be a traditionalist. Although I'll give you credit for sewups, you only get partial credit unless you repair your own flats and ride them until the threads are showing through the treads.

chaos
April 3rd, 2012, 10:04 PM
I am SO TIRED of hearing the criticism and The belittling of the swim leg of triathlons by people who have no idea what it is all about. Let me make it perfectly clear right now, if it wasn't for the swim leg in triathlons I would never be able to relive the joy I had 30 years ago swimming near the front of an open water race. Outside of USAT Nationals I always finished in the top 3% to 8% in the swim, and finished 3rd overall 2 years in a row in fields of over 250 people in the race (it had a longer than normal swim leg). Please don't take that away from me.

I'm not nearly as old as you, but I did participate in a good couple of dozen triathlons in the early 80's (if participation can be defined as crawling through a 10k on one's hands and knees)
These were indeed the good old days... few (if any) wetsuits, no aero bars, creative non-standardized distances, and beer company sponsorships.

E=H2O
April 3rd, 2012, 10:17 PM
I . . . and beer company sponsorships.
Heck in the 80's there was the Bud Light Open Water Series in Southern California. Every weekend through the summer there was a race from Santa Barbara to San Clemente. And by the way, beer is still e recovery drink of choice for triathlons in Oregon, and sometimes even step in as one of the sponsors.

Chicken of the Sea
April 4th, 2012, 12:01 AM
I am sure in OW swimmers' eyes that makes us triathletes weaker, wimpier, not willing to work hard enough, blah blah blah. Whatever. And the analogy to motorized bikes at an IM is a non sequitur. Motors are illegal. Wetsuits aren't (at those races). I wouldn't think that's a difficult concept to grasp.



Blah blah is correct. I'm sure wetsuits are very useful and I wore one myself in an IM rather than let inferior swimmers beat me. All I'm saying is that they allow swimmers to "swim" in conditions they are not trained for. A shortcut, much like putting a motor on a bike. Not difficult to comprehend.

That Guy
April 4th, 2012, 09:46 AM
Once upon a time...

I hate everything.
I hate everything more!
I hate everything infinity.
I hate everything infinity plus one!
I beer.
I beer too!
And they all lived happily ever after.

Rob Copeland
April 4th, 2012, 10:32 AM
I don't care that a RD sets rules to increase participation. At the end of the day, the more people that participate in my sport means that more events will be put on, which means that I get to race more. Races that don't get support die. In my naive and ideal world, people will not enter races for which they are not prepared.Excellent point. Assuming an objective is to get more people participating in the sport or as the USMS mission states “To promote health, wellness, fitness and competition for adults through swimming” then let’s do what we can to get more people in the water.


the bicycle analogy is encumber by the fact that a bike is required
for cycling, whereas a wetsuit is not required for swimming.I agree the bicycle analogy falls short, so let’s go with the shoe analogy.

In most tri’s shoes are not required for the run. However shoes (like wetsuits) do provide safety and competitive advantage to those who wear them. And with the exception of the Barefoot Running Society, I doubt there are many folks who grouse about them shoed runners.


All I'm saying is that they allow swimmers to "swim" in conditions they are not trained for. This is a conversation we have been having for a long time. The fundamental question behind the statement is, is this a good or bad thing? Is it a bad thing if I can get people to come swim in the lake at 55F, in a wetsuit, by telling them that if I can do it without a wetsuit you can do it with one? It gets swimmers in the water and lets me train; win/win! Also, if adding a wetsuit division to an open water race makes it economical viable for the race director is this a bad thing?

On the other hand I completely support events that choose to maintain elite standards. Part of the challenge of swims such as Lac Memphramagog, the English Channel, the Irish Channel, Manhattan Island, Catalina Channel is cold water preparation. In fact, I’d be disappointed if the CSA started giving recognition to people swimming the English Channel in a wetsuit.

geog
April 4th, 2012, 11:34 AM
In most tri’s shoes are not required for the run. However shoes (like wetsuits) do provide safety and competitive advantage to those who wear them. And with the exception of the Barefoot Running Society, I doubt there are many folks who grouse about them shoed runners.
+1 @ Barebutt Swimming Society

shoes are more analogous to goggles than to wetsuits since
both shoes and goggles 1) are worn to a prevent physical harm
that cannot be mitigated by training and 2) are worn even though
they carry competitive disadvantages, such as time lost during
T1 and T2 to put on shoes, and a loss (?) of stream line in the
case of goggles. goggles also correct vision.

the weak link might be the non-textile swim cap, which is selected
and donned for heat retention and speed. there are other
inconsistencies. some mechanical alterations are ok, such as
shaving, while others are not, such as skin grafts to web toes
or fingers or bone lengthening or shortening.

maybe the division between amateur and professional athletes
is a good analogy. personally, i do not have much invested in
the putative issue, it's just fun to mull over controversies.

E=H2O
April 4th, 2012, 12:37 PM
On the other hand I completely support events that choose to maintain elite standards.

As an american, I am sick and tired of the "elites" telling me what I can and cannot do. [SARC INT]

ChrisM
April 4th, 2012, 12:42 PM
Blah blah is correct. I'm sure wetsuits are very useful and I wore one myself in an IM rather than let inferior swimmers beat me. All I'm saying is that they allow swimmers to "swim" in conditions they are not trained for. A shortcut, much like putting a motor on a bike. Not difficult to comprehend.

LOL. I rest my case. Use the tools available to you. Even if they are anathema

E=H2O
April 4th, 2012, 01:06 PM
All I'm saying is that they allow swimmers to "swim" in conditions they are not trained for.

Let's not start down the road of requiring a qualifying swim in similar conditions to make sure they've trained properly (although it is the only way to really know). While fear keeps many out of OW races, there are always a few swimmers who are not ready for the conditions of the race, surf or weather with or without a wetsuit. I think people use them to overcome the cold (skinny triathletes), or in many cases, just the fear of the cold. I think the real danger is a swimmer panicing while swimming in close quarters in a group - particularly at the start and turn buoys.

I think everyone can be taught to float on their back with or without a wetsuit - maybe that should be checked before each race. Imagine seeing 100 people floating on their backs before the start of a 1 mile OW swim. It might draw more spectators than the race itself. (Maybe we should do a "flash mob" float in the La Jolla Cove on a hot summer weekend.)

chaos
April 4th, 2012, 02:20 PM
(Maybe we should do a "flash mob" float in the La Jolla Cove on a hot summer weekend.)

NEVER turn your back on a garabaldi!

geog
April 4th, 2012, 02:58 PM
Looks like a crutch... walks like a crutch... smells like a cr[]tch....

fwiw, feeding can also be couched as a crutch. it has been
demonstrated to be unnecessary even in long (21 mile) swims:

[1] "... did not touch food or drink throughout the long
swim, but had a light breakfast of canteloupe, cereal,
toast and coffee one hour before starting."

[2] "... ruddy of cheek, bright of eye and full of life ...
gave not the least sign of the great ordeal she had
gone through. She would not even rest on the trip
up the bay and spent most of the time chatting and
enjoying another meal of cold food."

it is not even necessary in order break records:

[3] "... broken the record for the swim ... by seven
minutes and 30 seconds ... in far harsher conditions"


sources:
[1], [2]: http://www.nycswim.org/Article/ArticleTemplate.aspx?Article_ID=728
[3]: p137 in http://www.amazon.com/dp/0786440287

MikeGarr
April 4th, 2012, 04:24 PM
shoes are more analogous to goggles than to wetsuits since
both shoes and goggles 1) are worn to a prevent physical harm
that cannot be mitigated by training and 2) are worn even though
they carry competitive disadvantages, such as time lost during
T1 and T2 to put on shoes, and a loss (?) of stream line in the
case of goggles. goggles also correct vision.


I have stopped wearing goggles in the salt water if my swim is 2 miles or less. I find I can sight and navigate better. I tend to swim in clean waters though. One less thing to worry about. My main peeve with the wetsuits is taking them off.

geog
April 4th, 2012, 05:00 PM
I have stopped wearing goggles in the salt water if my swim is 2 miles or less. I find I can sight and navigate better. I tend to swim in clean waters though. One less thing to worry about. My main peeve with the wetsuits is taking them off.

sounds like you've acclimated your eyes to the salt.
is that for events or for saltwater training swims too?
and are your eyes irritated/red afterwards?

evmo
April 4th, 2012, 05:19 PM
fwiw, feeding can also be couched as a crutch.

It could, but it would be sort of ridiculous. Reminds me of an argument someone made - I forget where - that the escort boat is an artificial aid in marathon swimming, and that true marathon swimmers should navigate themselves.

An interesting concept... but I seem to recall, the only guy who ever tried that in the English Channel washed ashore in Belgium a few days later.

Beware of the false equivalence.

I guess it depends how you define the sport - how you conceive of the meaningful challenges.

In triathlon, withstanding cold water is not considered a meaningful criterion of excellence - so wetsuits are allowed. (Kinda laughable that they drew the line with the De Soto suits, though. If 3mm is fair, what's "unfair" about 5mm?)

In marathon swimming, cold-water tolerance is - and always has been - part of the game. A fundamental part. Being able to swim without eating is not a fundamental part of the game. Being able to navigate by the sun, moon, and wave direction is not a fundamental part of the game. Ergo, wetsuits aren't equivalent to feeding and escort boats.

I'm fairly certain if Trudy Ederle (the subject of geog's articles) were alive today, she'd tell us her decision to not eat was a personal preference, and she certainly wouldn't expect future competitors in the swim-later-to-be-known-as the "Ederle Swim" to also refrain from eating. On the other hand, if you asked her thoughts on the idea of people in wetsuits breaking her record, she'd say, "F*ck those guys." Or something to that effect.

Open water swimming (as distinguished from marathon swimming) is a bit of a gray area, because OWS events are often organized by the same people who organize triathlons. In such events, triathlon rules tend to prevail. Which sucks, but I guess it's better than having no event.

Bottom line: If you allow people the use of performance-enhancing devices, they will be used. In deciding which devices to allow, and which to ban, it helps to consult the history and spirit of the sport. Does the device conflict with this history and spirit in a fundamental way?

geog
April 4th, 2012, 05:29 PM
evmo, just to cut to the chase, or possibly cut to the chase, does your argument boil down to tradition (which i would *not* consider to be an invalid argument)?

evmo
April 4th, 2012, 05:47 PM
I dislike the word because it can connote backwardness, narrow-mindedness, and intolerance... but yes, that's at least part of it.

I am not a traditionalist in most aspects of my life, but in sports I think it often makes sense.

Should we allow aluminum bats in major league baseball?

Should we lower the rim to 8 feet in basketball?

I would certainly benefit from a paddles-and-buoy event in pool swimming, but I'd never seriously argue for the establishment of one.

If "tradition" is good enough for Kevin Murphy and Nick Adams (CS&PF), Mike Read and Julie Bradshaw (CSA), Forrest Nelson and Carol Sing (CCSF), Morty Berger (MIMS & Ederle), Phil Rush (Cook Strait), etc. etc. -- and all those who came before them - then it's good enough for me.

ChrisM
April 4th, 2012, 06:34 PM
I dislike the word because it can connote backwardness, narrow-mindedness, and intolerance... but yes, that's at least part of it.

I am not a traditionalist in most aspects of my life, but in sports I think it often makes sense.

Should we allow aluminum bats in major league baseball?

Should we lower the rim to 8 feet in basketball?

I would certainly benefit from a paddles-and-buoy event in pool swimming, but I'd never seriously argue for the establishment of one.

If "tradition" is good enough for Kevin Murphy and Nick Adams (CS&PF), Mike Read and Julie Bradshaw (CSA), Forrest Nelson and Carol Sing (CCSF), Morty Berger (MIMS & Ederle), Phil Rush (Cook Strait), etc. etc. -- and all those who came before them - then it's good enough for me.

But no one is arguing to change anything. What's the fear about (lowering the rim, adding paddles... those things aren't happening)? I get tradition. I get that OW swimmers are proud of their non wetsuit alcatraz swims, and I agree that it's more difficult, takes more preparation, more willingness to be uncomfortable... No one is taking that away from you.

Every open water swim I do that allows wetsuits either (1) renders the wearer ineligible for an award or (2) has separate divisions. Some open water swims - Alcatraz - I wear a wetsuit (along with the huge majority). Some open water swims - everything in so cal between July and September - I don't. Those that don't want to wear wetsuits, don't wear wetsuits. I find it's quite a big ocean out there and there's plenty of room for everyone.

I guess I just am not sure why people who only do OW swimming care what people who do tris -- different sport, different rules, different governing bodies -- wear in the water (although I think it's ironic that chicken admits to wearing a wetsuit in a triathlon while railing against their use simply because he didn't want to get beat out of the water, that's why 99.99% of triathletes wear them). Unless, of course, it's merely to say that OW swimmers are "better" in whatever sense of the word. Which is cool, it's human nature to do that after all. In the cycling world, roadies bag on mountain bikers bag on fixie riders bag on roadies bag on.... and on and on. Bt it's all just riding a bike after all. It's all rather silly in the end.

Guess people just like to pump up "their" crowd and excoriate "the other" crowd.

evmo
April 4th, 2012, 07:16 PM
But no one is arguing to change anything.
...
Every open water swim I do that allows wetsuits either (1) renders the wearer ineligible for an award or (2) has separate divisions.

I'm not talking about short-distance OW races with separate categories. I'm talking about marathon swimming (in particular, solo marathon swimming). Your confusion of the two seems to indicate you have no idea what you're talking about with regard to the latter.


I guess I just am not sure why people who only do OW swimming care what people who do tris wear in the water

I don't.

ChrisM
April 4th, 2012, 07:20 PM
I'm not talking about short-distance OW races with separate categories. I'm talking about marathon swimming (in particular, solo marathon swimming). Your confusion of the two seems to indicate you have no idea what you're talking about with regard to the latter.



Wow.

Yes, clearly I don't have a clue what I am talking about and you are much wiser than me.

And proved my point better than I could have argued it.

Thanks for the enlightening discussion

evmo
April 4th, 2012, 07:22 PM
Yes, clearly I don't have a clue what I am talking about and you are much wiser than me.

Glad we cleared that up. Cheers.

E=H2O
April 4th, 2012, 07:40 PM
It could,
Bottom line: If you allow people the use of performance-enhancing devices, they will be used. In deciding which devices to allow, and which to ban, it helps to consult the history and spirit of the sport. Does the device conflict with this history and spirit in a fundamental way?

On this basis neoprene caps should be allowed. I'm sure Ederle and others would have used them if they were available, and would find it comical that they are banned by all channel associations.

As a side note: I did a bit of research in this area and the conclusion drawn by scientific studies is that it helps retain heat upon first immersion before the body shuts off blood flow to your skin. This is of course a critical time with regards to cold shock. On this basis I think it should be considered a safety device. Otherwise, you lose the same amount of heat per square inch as any other part of the body (although I think there may be one exception). There is one other time it helps, and that is when you first get out of the water when warm blood returns to the scalp. Again acting as a safety device. This contradicted everything I had learned in mountaineering as well. For illustrative purposes, uncover 60% of your body, but make sure your head and neck are covered. Now go out into a blizzard and tell me how that works for you.

E=H2O
April 4th, 2012, 07:43 PM
Should we lower the rim to 8 feet in basketball?


Absolutely, but you can't play unless you are under 6 ft

geog
April 4th, 2012, 07:48 PM
I'm talking about marathon swimming (in particular, solo marathon swimming).

in your original post, that qualification would have gone a long way

evmo
April 4th, 2012, 07:53 PM
On this basis neoprene caps should be allowed. I'm sure Ederle and others would have used them if they were available, and would find it comical that they are banned by all channel associations.

The Farallon Islands organization allows (http://farallonswimfed.com/Farallon_Islands_Swimming_Federation/COURSE_%26_RULES.html) them. Based on your description of the research, it sounds like their performance benefit over the course of a channel swim is possibly non-existent? Anyone attempting the Farallons has probably trained away the first-immersion shock anyway...

E=H2O
April 4th, 2012, 07:55 PM
I agree that it's more difficult, takes more preparation, more willingness to be uncomfortable... No one is taking that away from you.


I don't think it takes anymore preparation. I think swimming in rough water does, unless you have years of experience to fall back on. (And swimming in a pool with noodlers doesn't count).

Definitely more uncomfortable, but that is usually only at the beginning and of course riding out the shivers after you are done. Chaos convinced me to do the Bridge to Bridge in SF at 57 when my coldest experience was at 60. He then convinced me to jump in 52 water to swim the GG Bridge to Aquatic Park. Frankly there is little difference in those swims. All I remember is the shock from the jump in (preferably not from a platform that sends you 6 feet under water) and swimming like hell.

ChrisM
April 4th, 2012, 08:06 PM
I don't think it takes anymore preparation. I think swimming in rough water does, unless you have years of experience to fall back on. (And swimming in a pool with noodlers doesn't count).

Definitely more uncomfortable, but that is usually only at the beginning and of course riding out the shivers after you are done. Chaos convinced me to do the Bridge to Bridge in SF at 57 when my coldest experience was at 60. He then convinced me to jump in 52 water to swim the GG Bridge to Aquatic Park. Frankly there is little difference in those swims. All I remember is the shock from the jump in (preferably not from a platform that sends you 6 feet under water) and swimming like hell.

Yeah, I was referring to mental preparation, really, but also experience. Water could be calm, could be rough, but swimming in the ocean you have to be prepared to handle whatever conditions present themselves at the start of or in the middle of a swim.

Every time I've jumped into the bay in a wetsuit I've thought to myself I could do this without.... but that requires actually jumping in without in the first place. Easy to say when you have one on

evmo
April 4th, 2012, 08:09 PM
in your original post, that qualification would have gone a long way

Hmm. I'd put it this way: They are a crutch regardless of distance. In short-distance OW races with separate categories, the distinction is self-evident. However, in solo marathon swims it can prove tempting to "make up your own rules" and then elide this fact when reporting to the media your unprecedented feat of "marathon swimming."

geog
April 4th, 2012, 08:16 PM
fwiw, feeding can also be couched as a crutch. it has been
demonstrated to be unnecessary even in long (21 mile) swims:

[1] "... did not touch food or drink throughout the long swim, but had a light breakfast of canteloupe, cereal, toast and coffee one hour before starting."

[2] "... ruddy of cheek, bright of eye and full of life ... gave not the least sign of the great ordeal she had gone through. She would not even rest on the trip up the bay and spent most of the time chatting and enjoying another meal of cold food."

it is not even necessary in order break records:

[3] "... broken the record for the swim ... by seven minutes and 30 seconds ... in far harsher conditions"


sources:
[1], [2]: http://www.nycswim.org/Article/ArticleTemplate.aspx?Article_ID=728
[3]: p137 in http://www.amazon.com/dp/0786440287



I'm fairly certain if Trudy Ederle (the subject of geog's articles) were alive today, she'd tell us her decision to not eat was a personal preference, and she certainly wouldn't expect future competitors in the swim-later-to-be-known-as the "Ederle Swim" to also refrain from eating. <snip>

it seems implausible to me that Trudy did not at least drink some water. so i only half believe that newspaper report. maybe NYCswims has additional historical accounts such a swim log, debriefings or diary pages from her support crew.

on the other hand, Lisa Bier did fanatical research for her book.

on the otherhand, Bier may have written book out of sociological interest, plus she simply may not have had been endurance athlete herself, or had enough exposure to our crowd for the no-food statement to have raised a red flag.

regardless, if one reads accounts of survival such as Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand, it is clear that people are capable of far more than what seems reasonable. so maybe Trudy did swim it without food/liquids.

Anyway ...

I disagree with you about your Trudy-today scenario. I think she would say her food plan was based on her experience and knowledge, plus she didn't want to risk impressing with vomit the 7 reporters on the support boat. This was a time in history when women were trying to overcome several biases, including the myth that the female physique did not have sufficient constitution for participation in sports without harm to themselves.

If she had today's knowledge, such as that being shared on MarathonSwimmers.org, I think she wholeheartedly would have fed.

ok, so maybe you summed all that up more elegantly in the phrase "personal preferences".

geog
April 4th, 2012, 08:20 PM
I get that OW swimmers ... more willingness to be uncomfortable

cold water is not uncomfortable.

ChrisM
April 4th, 2012, 08:27 PM
cold water is not uncomfortable.

Well, that's a personal thing I guess. I may not have swum in water colder than 55, but I've dived in 45 degree water. Diving in 80 degree water is more comfortable to me. Floating in 80 degree water is more comfortable than floating in 55 degree water to me.

chaos
April 4th, 2012, 08:32 PM
it seems implausible to me that Trudy did not at least drink some water. so i only half believe that newspaper report. maybe NYCswims has additional historical accounts such a swim log, debriefings or diary pages from her support crew.

I think Mr NYC Swim has some incredible video footage of Gertie... and indeed some of it contradicts what was reported.

E=H2O
April 4th, 2012, 08:33 PM
cold water is not uncomfortable.

You are a walrus, goo goo a'gjoo

geog
April 4th, 2012, 08:34 PM
I get that OW swimmers ... more willingness to be uncomfortable


cold water is not uncomfortable.


Well, that's a personal thing I guess.

i agree. i should should have qualified my statement. regardless, it breaks your point, or at least that aspect of your point. cheers!

chaos
April 4th, 2012, 08:35 PM
He then convinced me to jump in 52 water to swim the GG Bridge to Aquatic Park.

One of my favorite swims EVER! It was truly glorious... (breakfast at Denny's, not so much)

geog
April 4th, 2012, 08:42 PM
it seems implausible to me that Trudy did not at least drink some water. so i only half believe that newspaper report. maybe NYCswims has additional historical accounts such a swim log, debriefings or diary pages from her support crew.

on the other hand, Lisa Bier did fanatical research for her book.

on the otherhand, Bier may have written book out of sociological interest, plus she simply may not have had been endurance athlete herself, or had enough exposure to our crowd for the no-food statement to have raised a red flag.

regardless, if one reads accounts of survival such as Unbroken by Laura Hillenbrand, it is clear that people are capable of far more than what seems reasonable. so maybe Trudy did swim it without food/liquids.


I think Mr NYC Swim has some incredible video footage of Gertie... and indeed some of it contradicts what was reported.

thanks. online? where?

E=H2O
April 4th, 2012, 08:45 PM
(breakfast at Denny's, not so much)
I was colder walking around in the rain than I was on the swim.

geog
April 4th, 2012, 08:51 PM
cold water is not uncomfortable.


You are a walrus, goo goo a'gjoo

lol. you are a triathlete at heart, gear gear mo'gear

"Lennon composed the song by combining three songs he had been working on. When he learned that a teacher at his old primary school was having his students analyse Beatles' lyrics, he added a verse of nonsense words.[3]

The walrus is a reference to the walrus in Lewis Carroll's poem The Walrus and the Carpenter (from the book Through the Looking-Glass). Lennon expressed dismay upon belatedly realising that the walrus was a villain in the poem.[4]"

btw, from what I understand you do 99% of your training in a pool. to me thats nutso, but to me that makes your cool water swims impressive because i do know the benefits of cold water training. hats off to you, sincerely! best wishes on your swims/fundraisng.

chaos
April 4th, 2012, 09:03 PM
thanks. online? where?

Three Rivers, The Brooklyn Bridge and Lady Liberty (US Version) on Vimeo

There are only a few short clips of Ederle in this vid.... but I'm sure there must be more.

geog
April 4th, 2012, 10:12 PM
Three Rivers, The Brooklyn Bridge and Lady Liberty (US Version) on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/20493197)

There are only a few short clips of Ederle in this vid.... but I'm sure there must be more.

thanks, historical footage starts about 9 min into it, runs for ~3 min. excellent production quality, but if you find the bacon, please post!

E=H2O
April 4th, 2012, 10:21 PM
btw, from what I understand you do 99% of your training in a pool. to me thats nutso, but to me that makes your cool water swims impressive because i do know the benefits of cold water training.
Thanks.

When I lived in Santa Barbara for nearly 20 years it was ocean swimming and surfing, with a little training in Los Banos and the Carpinteria pool. I even lived right on Rincon Point for a year, but had to move when I gort married. :-(

At least the moving part was sad.

MikeGarr
April 4th, 2012, 10:24 PM
sounds like you've acclimated your eyes to the salt.
is that for events or for saltwater training swims too?
and are your eyes irritated/red afterwards?

Slightly red and irritated but it passes very quickly. I did a 5K swim without goggles last year and by the time I was finished my eyes were just about closed with the irritation, and it actually hurt. But for 2.5 miles or less I basically never wear goggles in the salt water any longer. I asked my Eye doc and she thought it was reasonable. I guess our tears aren't so much different from salt water as you might think.

evmo
April 4th, 2012, 11:42 PM
I take geog's point in bumping the old threads to mean: It has happened before, and it will happen again. So it has, and so it will.

I'm sure it's bad for profits and media spectacle, but as long as:

- there are still OWS events (excluding tris) that don't separate wetsuits & skins (and btw ChrisM, in my experience, outside of USMS events this is still the norm);
- the desire to maintain this distinction is mischaracterized as elitist;
- people who swim the English Channel in wetsuits are eligible for the International Marathon Swimming Hall of Fame (no joke)...

... I will continue to fight the good fight.

ChrisM, I'm sorry for being short with you earlier. If you're interested in learning more about marathon swimming, I invite you to check out marathonswimmers.org. As long as you don't start off with the phrase "holier than thou," like you did here, I think you'll actually find it quite a friendly group.

Likewise, I'll refrain from trolling Slowtwitch or BeginnerTri with all of my antiquated notions.

Chicken of the Sea
April 5th, 2012, 12:00 AM
One of my favorite swims EVER! It was truly glorious... (breakfast at Denny's, not so much)

I'm thinking of swimming the GG to Bay Bridge in June as a birthday present to me from me. Has anyone done it? I'm dying to go back there, had the best time ever! even totally cheating on that swim.....

E=H2O
April 5th, 2012, 12:08 AM
I'm thinking of swimming the GG to Bay Bridge in June as a birthday present to me from me. Has anyone done it? I'm dying to go back there, had the best time ever! even totally cheating on that swim.....

I Love that swim. One of the bests in the country. You'll never swim anything more exciting. A number of people run a swim. Swim Art (disclosure owned by Leslie Thomas, the head of my channel crew), Bob Roper, Water World, Gary Emich, . . .

I went with Bob Roper. I signed p last year to do it again with WaterWorld but had to leave SF and return home for a family matter. My choice had to do with my schedule.

Chicken of the Sea
April 5th, 2012, 12:14 AM
The one I've been looking at is Waterworld. Looks like there's some cheap(ish) flights for that date.

I can't stand the feeling of anything touching my neck while I swim, so if I decide to wear a wetsuit it will be one of my own designs:

http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?b=13290

geog
April 5th, 2012, 02:25 AM
I take geog's point in bumping the old threads to mean: It has happened before, and it will happen again. So it has, and so it will.

i came across those threads by chance when looking to see how this thread stood in terms of its number of posts (to sort the OWS forum by post-count, click on the header of the 'replies' column). i bumped them with half a thought that posters in this thread would be interested in the others.

what does the volume of those threads indicate? especially in light that this is an Open Water Swimming Forum, albeit on a pool-swimmers website? i think the answer is that the world wide surge of interest is not in open water swimming (unqualified usage), but in wetsuit swimming ("open water" justifiably left implicit, permanently , unless there is a wetsuit pool swimming culture that i'm unaware of).

or maybe it indicates something else. there is: The Righteous Mind: why good people are divided by politics and religion 2012, by Jonathan Haidt.

E=H2O
April 5th, 2012, 02:38 AM
I think it is time to weed out the lightweights. For most of my life OW swimming has been ocean swimming. But then I moved to Oregon and people appear to think that lake swimming is the same sport. Outside the great lakes, I think it is time that we ignore all results from lake swims. Heck I have swum in pools with rougher water than some of the lake swims I've been in.

ChrisM
April 5th, 2012, 01:04 PM
I take geog's point in bumping the old threads to mean: It has happened before, and it will happen again. So it has, and so it will.

I'm sure it's bad for profits and media spectacle, but as long as:

- there are still OWS events (excluding tris) that don't separate wetsuits & skins (and btw ChrisM, in my experience, outside of USMS events this is still the norm);
- the desire to maintain this distinction is mischaracterized as elitist (http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=264355&postcount=28);
- people who swim the English Channel in wetsuits are eligible for the International Marathon Swimming Hall of Fame (no joke)...

... I will continue to fight the good fight.

ChrisM, I'm sorry for being short with you earlier. If you're interested in learning more about marathon swimming, I invite you to check out marathonswimmers.org. As long as you don't start off with the phrase "holier than thou," like you did here, I think you'll actually find it quite a friendly group.

Likewise, I'll refrain from trolling Slowtwitch or BeginnerTri with all of my antiquated notions.

Well, I don't think I am a troll, as I was just trying ti understand the mindset, but you're right, holier than thou was the wrong choice of words. There are a few of us that straddle the OW and tri worlds and understand and respect the rules/traditions/unwritten rules of each. I wouldn't think of advocating wetsuits for solo marathon swimming, but to be honest that wasn't what I was talking wbout when referring to OW swims. Wsa talking more about the recreational ocean 2 mile pier to piers etc.

aquageek
April 11th, 2012, 10:36 AM
First off, I defer to chaos on all matters ow as he is one of the experts in the field. He's also a nice guy who brings me beer and gifts, and I'm easily swayed by swag.

I like my wetsuit, like it a lot. I can wear it for about 6-8 weeks annually early in the Spring. It allows me to swim farther, probably because it makes swimming easier. When my goal at first is to go a few hours it helps to have the suit on. Then, when the water turns to stew temperature I dump the thing.

Celestial
April 7th, 2018, 05:14 PM
Please forgive my revival of this old thread. If I wear a fast skin, will I be warmer in the water? Im a little nervous (obviously) about hypothermia, but not sure I want that tight old thing ON for 3-1/2 hours. Im 57 and ~120lbs, and cold natured anyway.

flystorms
April 9th, 2018, 05:54 AM
Where will you be swimming? Or better yet, what is the expected water temp?

Celestial
April 9th, 2018, 12:59 PM
Sarasota Bay (around Lido Key) this weekend, and its been cooler than usual, so water temp of 72 for 7 miles (12K).