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Peter Cruise
March 9th, 2012, 04:42 PM
This thread is inspired by Jimmy T's musings re 'garbage yardage' which incited some debate pro and con, but, of course, resolved nothing.

I chose the thread heading, not to compete with Jim (who is a master wordsmith, albeit an epic hallucinator), but to allow posters to discuss any drill, set, exercise, common injury therapy, piece of equipment etc. that they feel will actually do damage to us. In other threads over the years, some of these opinions have been voiced, but I thought it might be useful to have a dedicated thread. Please have some grounds for your assertion, but you don't have to be a sports scientist either. Perhaps we could inspire some vigorous discussion?

I'll start by mentioning a basic one (to me): I loathe kicking with a kickboard. I feel that it compresses my cervical vertibrae and could lead to neck problems (I have a pre-existing neck problem and any time I try using a board it gets aggravated). I also feel that the board doesn't allow you to assume a correct body position for kicking.

Any takers? Feel free to state your own pet concern(s).

That Guy
March 9th, 2012, 05:23 PM
A form of septic swimming that I did not talk about in the other thread is swimming in inadequate facilities. Tiny cruise ship/hotel/backyard pools. Resort pools that are heated to hot tub temperatures even when there is an actual hot tub right next to the pool. And so on. When there's no alternative, swimming in these environments is still way better than nothing though.

chaos
March 9th, 2012, 05:24 PM
it kills me when I see people toss their goggles aside for kick sets and then proceed to converse the whole time. if you can carry on a conversation with your lane mates you are indeed engaged in a pointless "swimming" activity.

Allen Stark
March 9th, 2012, 05:29 PM
While all the "toys" are helpful for some peoples some times I avoid paddles and pull buoys.I have twitchy shoulders and it doesn't take much extra strain to get them to act up,hence no paddles.I find pull buoys just don't help me.I don't see how isolating the pull from the kick helps in free,is counter productive in fly(for me at least),in BR as a dolphin kick helps the undulation and timing more,and I don't do enough BK to make a comment except that in BK the kick seems so important to body position that to not use it seems problematic.The exception to my "no pull buoy" rule is BR full stroke or kick to work on keeping the knees together and not kick out.I love fins and snorkels though.
I was afraid this thread was about swimming in really foul water,something I try to avoid.

Peter Cruise
March 9th, 2012, 05:58 PM
Allen- perhaps David B. would be the one to launch a thread re swimming in foul water...

I like paddles on occasion to find the sweet spots in my strokes, but feel overuse could lead to tendon or ligament strains. The pullbuoy for narrow breast kick drill is indeed a good one.

Anyone have an injury therapy or treatment that they feel is harmful...

Dolphin 2
March 9th, 2012, 10:25 PM
By the term "Septic Swimming" I thought your were referring to the Ganges River in India:

Ganges River - Pollution - YouTube


That's a literal definition of septic swimming!!! :bolt:

D2

philoswimmer
March 10th, 2012, 03:10 AM
To me,septic swimming is when you get so tired that your stroke gets sloppy, and you feel like you're thrashing in the water. Some sets seem to induce this more readily than others.

Bobinator
March 10th, 2012, 08:53 AM
To me,septic swimming is when you get so tired that your stroke gets sloppy, and you feel like you're thrashing in the water. Some sets seem to induce this more readily than others.

Yes, I was doing that last night during a series of 200's. I kept slowing down and focusing on technique but it seemed my arms and shoulders had a mind of their own.

jim thornton
March 10th, 2012, 12:20 PM
This thread is inspired by Jimmy T's musings re 'garbage yardage' which incited some debate pro and con, but, of course, resolved nothing.

Excellent topic, Canadian grasshopper!

I tend to agree with you about kickboards, though lately I have been using them again. Paddles, in my opinion, were designed by orthopedic surgeons to ensure a steady population of patients to cut. Fins and pull buoys, especially when used together, are arguably the safest combo. But even here you can get yourself into major trouble by overdoing things too quickly. I recently purchased a Tyr monofin, for example, and though I do find it helps teach one the proper undulation maneuvers in the SDK, which the younger whipper snappers may apply to other activities outside the pool, too much use of this monofin definitely causes lower back pain in the vulnerable and frail elderly such as myself.

I know I have posted this in other spots on these forums, but my accumulated wisdom about any forms of exercise in ones twilight years can be best summed up thusly:

If you aren't used to doing a lot of something recently, do not do a lot of it now.

You can definitely work your way up, over time, and your body will adapt. But kicking 3000 yards the same day your new Tyr monofin arrives via UPS is a recipe for a long bivouac in the pain chamber. I think this applies to all swimming toys and workout fads/new approaches, from H.I.T. to garbage yards. Add no more than 10 percent per week on no more than one of these dimensions: frequency, duration, and intensity.

You should be okay following this approach, but your orthopedic surgeon may be seen weeping.

Peter Cruise
March 10th, 2012, 01:06 PM
Speaking of orthopedic surgeons, I've resisted c4 c5 neck fusion for almost 30 years, partly because the specific procedure grossed me out, but also 'cause I suspected it would really hurt my swimming. Any opinions or anecdotes? I met Marty Hull in Santa Clara the year he had his and haven't heard whether it affected his.

Chris Stevenson
March 10th, 2012, 01:23 PM
Kicking with a board if you have injured shoulders and/or neck can definitely aggravate those injuries and should be avoided. But I disagree about the "body position" thing, at least from the waist down. As far as your legs are concerned very little is different.

I do a lot of kicking without boards, a lot of it underwater. But when I feel like working my legs without having to worry about the whole needing-to-breathe thing, I'll grab a board. When I was in college, 100% of my kick sets were with a board and I was a significantly faster kicker then than I am now. (That said, I would not advocate doing 100% kick sets with a board even with healthy neck/shoulders.)

Fins are my weak point. I grant that they can be useful but any time I try to use them and work hard, they end up hurting my ankles and knees. And I simply cannot get the hang of swimming with zoomers or other fins: screws up my timing and I end up going about the same speed as without them, though with a little less effort.

I also don't get much out of stretchy cords, either on dry land or in the water. As a dry land exercise I find the resistance is just way too low to be very beneficial; I might as well be swimming. (But recently I've wondered if they may be useful in place of a pool warmup, if the warmup pool is not available.)

In the water, stretch cords are okay for short bursts, trying to get out as far as you can in a short sprint. But I hate the "swimming in place" drills against the cords because my stroke feels so different. And it is SO boring; I would never ever buy an "endless pool."

And I never get much out of assisted sprinting, when someone pulls you along so you go faster than normal. For me, normal speedwork works fine for that sort of thing.

The Fortress
March 10th, 2012, 01:58 PM
I do a lot of kicking without boards, a lot of it underwater. But when I feel like working my legs without having to worry about the whole needing-to-breathe thing, I'll grab a board.


Likewise. As long as I don't go crazy with kickboards, there is no ill effect and I enjoy a respite from hypoxic kicking. I also like doing timed 25s & 50s with fins and board. If I could ever learn to use a snorkel, perhaps I'd go boardless more often.

Paddles do seem to be the orthopedist's evil friend. Because of elbow problems, I've had to cut upper body upper body lifting for months. I tried to compensate somewhat with paddles or, even more risky, paddles + parachute. I'm not sure, but I think this may have contributed to a new shoulder problem. There is nothing, nothing in the world, more spetic to swimming than a shoulder problem. :afraid:

My other little personal septic issue is that I despise doing a hard sprint or lactate workout a day or two after upper body lifting or a full body workout. Swimming feels like torture, and I have to summon all my will power to get through the workout. Because of injuries, I've at least managed to escape this fate lately!