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orca1946
April 7th, 2012, 12:47 AM
Breaststrokers ---- make sure you understand the LATEST ruling on the pull-fly kick- br kick rule that has just been restated.
It says that you may use the fly kick AFTER the hands move apart & before the BR kick, on starts & turns, is the way I understand it.

rxleakem
April 7th, 2012, 07:02 AM
It says that you may use the fly kick AFTER the hands move apart & before the BR kick

"Observable separation" of the hands, where a pause is ok in the action of the underwater pulldown. This might trigger some dq's as the official must see that a separation occurs.

I'm practicing a tight streamline to superman flying pose myself with the dolphin kick up front. :angel:

Calvin S
April 7th, 2012, 07:25 AM
Breaststrokers ---- make sure you understand the LATEST ruling on the pull-fly kick- br kick rule that has just been restated.
It says that you may use the fly kick AFTER the hands move apart & before the BR kick, on starts & turns, is the way I understand it.

a downward motion of the hands also counts. Its movement of the hands they look for, vertically or horizontally. You can maintain a streamline and push your hands down also.

pdjang
April 7th, 2012, 09:22 AM
I believe the restating of the rule is the result of the start and turn innovation in the underwater phase of breaststroke. After the dolphin kick became legal, most swimmers synchronized the dolphin kick with the underwater pull out and followed it with a single breaststroke kick before emerging from the water.

The innovation is that if one does the dolphin kick in a streamlined position first, then the underwater pull and finally the single breaststroke kick (in that order) - one obtains a significant advantage in that the swimmer travels further underwater as opposed to any other method.

The advantage increases if you are in a very tight streamlined position when you do your first dolphin kick (e.g., hand over hand, shoulders pressed into your ears). The new rule reduces this advantage slightly.

You can (should) experiment with the sequence of actions.

Allen Stark
April 7th, 2012, 06:38 PM
a downward motion of the hands also counts. Its movement of the hands they look for, vertically or horizontally. You can maintain a streamline and push your hands down also.
Actually it doesn't anymore-http://www.usms.org/rules/20120314_breast_interpretation.pdf
By this only a separation of the hands counts.
As I have said before ,the early kick is not faster for me(I don't have a great dolphin kick)but it is certainly faster for many BR swimmers ,YMMV.
Also the rule for the dolphin kick originally was so swimmers wouldn't get DQd for the "natural undulation" that often occurred during the pulldown.Now,if you use the early kickyou must have no undulation during the pulldown or you risk getting DQd.

jaadams1
April 7th, 2012, 08:34 PM
Actually it doesn't anymore-http://www.usms.org/rules/20120314_breast_interpretation.pdf
By this only a separation of the hands counts.
As I have said before ,the early kick is not faster for me(I don't have a great dolphin kick)but it is certainly faster for many BR swimmers ,YMMV.
Also the rule for the dolphin kick originally was so swimmers wouldn't get DQd for the "natural undulation" that often occurred during the pulldown.Now,if you use the early kickyou must have no undulation during the pulldown or you risk getting DQd.


This is where I do my dolphin kick, near the end of the pulldown phase. I have no problem getting to or a little past 15 meters off the dive, and I can get nearly 1/2way down the pool on all other lengths (most of the time). I don't understand how people "get away with" the dolphin kick at the beginning of the pulldown...it just doesn't seem natural.

Calvin S
April 8th, 2012, 07:57 AM
Actually it doesn't anymore-http://www.usms.org/rules/20120314_breast_interpretation.pdf
By this only a separation of the hands counts.
As I have said before ,the early kick is not faster for me(I don't have a great dolphin kick)but it is certainly faster for many BR swimmers ,YMMV.
Also the rule for the dolphin kick originally was so swimmers wouldn't get DQd for the "natural undulation" that often occurred during the pulldown.Now,if you use the early kickyou must have no undulation during the pulldown or you risk getting DQd.


I stand corrected. Funny, the last time I got clarification on this rule was only TWO days before that new interpretation was published (it was at Sectionals the first weekend of March). That was what I was referring to in my previous post.

Good to know.

ande
April 9th, 2012, 11:01 AM
Now that a single dolphin kick (DK) is allowed, the rule says the swimmers hands must be in motion before the swimmer can do her single dolphin kick.
Motion is defined as a separation of her hands.
So a swimmer streamling in locked position can shift to an unlocked streamline. Your hands can be just a bit apart and it is legal to do your dolphin kick. Superman streamline implies shoulder width, which is too wide.
I suggest a little separation, enough so it is visible to judges but not too much. Maybe 2, 3 or 4 inches apart.

Swimmers can DK before, during or after their pulldowns.

Before allows the swimmer to DK while still streamlined which many feel is faster.

The sequence is:
1) Push off & glide in a locked streamline,
2) unlock your streamline by separating your hands a few inches then pause
3) DK & glide some then
4) begin your pull down

Learn how to do an optimal unlocked streamline

orca1946
April 9th, 2012, 12:58 PM
If I remember why this came to be. An Olympic br swimmer [ Kitagima ? ] got away with this & did not get DQ'd ---- so other started doing it till they made some changes.

Midas
April 9th, 2012, 06:16 PM
Deleted my response because I see that this is a FINA interpretation. This will be interesting. Most elites appear to do the dolphin kick first and without any discernible hand separation (at least as far as I can tell from the underwater cameras). I will be shocked if they really DQ people for this at the Olympics but if they don't, I will continue to be frustrated that the elites can get away with this while I can't!

smontanaro
April 10th, 2012, 04:23 AM
The sequence is:
1) Push off & glide in a locked streamline,
2) unlock your streamline by separating your hands a few inches then pause
3) DK & glide some then
4) begin your pull down

Learn how to do an optimal unlocked streamline

One question, one observation.

Could you unlock your streamline, dk, then return to a locked streamline to glide before completing your pullout?

I messed with this early dk business ever-so-briefly yesterday evening. If you are, like me, used to doing your dk in the midst of your pull down, it will take some practice to suppress it. I wouldn't try changing the sequence of movements in a meet until youhad practiced thus a lot. Of course, I'm sure there's a SFF post about that already. ;-)

Skip

Midas
April 10th, 2012, 10:21 AM
One question, one observation.

Could you unlock your streamline, dk, then return to a locked streamline to glide before completing your pullout?

I messed with this early dk business ever-so-briefly yesterday evening. If you are, like me, used to doing your dk in the midst of your pull down, it will take some practice to suppress it. I wouldn't try changing the sequence of movements in a meet until youhad practiced thus a lot. Of course, I'm sure there's a SFF post about that already. ;-)

Skip

I think most elites dk and then immediately pull. With one dk, I wouldn't think that you'd get enough forward propulsion to drop back into a glide afterwards. It's sort of like the dk at the beginning of a butterfly pull.

Allen Stark
April 10th, 2012, 10:37 AM
One question, one observation.

Could you unlock your streamline, dk, then return to a locked streamline to glide before completing your pullout?

I messed with this early dk business ever-so-briefly yesterday evening. If you are, like me, used to doing your dk in the midst of your pull down, it will take some practice to suppress it. I wouldn't try changing the sequence of movements in a meet until youhad practiced thus a lot. Of course, I'm sure there's a SFF post about that already. ;-)

Skip

I think that if you separate your hands and then bring them back together ,that could be seen as a completed pull,so the regular pulldown would be your second consecutive pull and you would be DQd.

TRYM_Swimmer
April 10th, 2012, 12:41 PM
I think that if you separate your hands and then bring them back together ,that could be seen as a completed pull,so the regular pulldown would be your second consecutive pull and you would be DQd.

I would hope so! All of this nitpicky stuff would be moot if they'd just had the stones to DQ Kitundulate the first time! I swam the stroke for 50 years without a hint of "natural" undulation on the pullout. We were just trained that way. Your lower body was still and dragged along by the pullout.

I have moved into the new era, after some trial and error. Personally, I find that the dolphin in conjunction with the pullout works better for me. That may be partially due to the fact that my SDK is pretty pitiful at the moment.

moodyrichardson
April 10th, 2012, 03:20 PM
This video has really helped me, so far. Is the rule again different or did they just clarify?

http://youtu.be/7S1fy8K7FQI

Allen Stark
April 10th, 2012, 06:10 PM
This video has really helped me, so far. Is the rule again different or did they just clarify?

http://youtu.be/7S1fy8K7FQI

This is a good demonstration of what is legal.

jaadams1
April 10th, 2012, 11:19 PM
This is a good demonstration of what is legal.

I tried playing with the dolphin kick near the beginning, bbut it just doesn't feel right at all to me. I guess that's the flyer in me. I'm just going to stick with the kick near the end of my powerful pulldown. Not worth DQing myself.

orca1946
April 16th, 2012, 05:21 PM
I also feel the best place for my dk is middle/end of my pullout!

aztimm
April 16th, 2012, 06:22 PM
A butterfly kick isn't required in the breaststroke pullout, is it?

I've never believed in the reasons why this was allowed, and have never done it. Just want to make sure I won't get DQ'd for not including it in my pullouts.

Allen Stark
April 16th, 2012, 09:58 PM
A butterfly kick isn't required in the breaststroke pullout, is it?

I've never believed in the reasons why this was allowed, and have never done it. Just want to make sure I won't get DQ'd for not including it in my pullouts.

Nope,not required.