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new
June 26th, 2012, 10:35 AM
Hey, I would like to get some advice and ideas for building this pool.

The proyect is very advanced already, but there are many things that are not finished.

So, we are planing on building 2 pools

1) Main pool:

25 x 16.5 meters

minimin depth: 1.35 meters
Max depth: 2.00 meters

2) Second pool

4.5 x 16.5 meters

Depth: 1.20 meters


I already read the FINA rules

http://www.fina.org/H2O/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=365:fr-2-swimming-pools&catid=88:facilities-rules&Itemid=184

But there is this one rule I missed the first time I read it:

"Lanes shall be at least 2.5 metres wide, with two spaces of at least 0.2 metre outside of the first and last lanes"

We actually planed 8 lanes, 2.0 meters wide, and 0.5 metre outside of the first and last lanes.

This is very much the only thing that wont comply with the rules, I don't know if it's worth it to change the design to 20.4 x 25 meters since it makes it a lot more expensive.


Also, I would like to hear ideas about locker rooms, we are planing on building 4 of them, 2 for adults and 2 for childrens, with diferent showers and lockers.

We have some dificulties planing the access control system since the locker rooms will be also used by people that won't have permited access to the pool.

That's about it, any suggestions, ideas, or things you would like to change in the pool your are currently swimming are very welcome.

knelson
June 26th, 2012, 11:04 AM
My feeling* is two meter wide lanes is sufficient unless you plan to host major national or international competition. Considering the second pool is more or less a "kiddie" pool I'm assuming this is not the case. One advantage of the 2.5 meter lanes would be that you might be able to configure the pool as ten lanes for training purposes. The bottom and end markings would be useless with the ten lane setup, of course.

* with the caveat that I'm on no way an expert on pool design!

fmracing
June 26th, 2012, 11:09 AM
things you would like to change in the pool your are currently swimming are very welcome.

What is the point of the second pool at 4.5m wide? Thats alot of expense for a pool so thin. Why not use that to expand the larger pool?

Check the minimum starting depth in your area and make sure the depth is sufficient to put blocks in. Once a side is too shallow, you can't ever decide to move the blocks to that end.

Along the same lines, if you're considering having it 20.4m x 25m. Why not make it 25y x 25m and size the depth properly so that you can do starts from either direction and have either scy or scm meets held there? An alternative would be to plan for a 26m (give or take) pool with a bulkhead so you could run 25y meets there too by shortening it. *I* feel its a mistake to build a purely metric pool in the states. If you can rent out meets there for either course, it just makes it that much more attractive to potential meet directors and easier to help the pool pay for itself, and/or its expenses.

To that point... make sure your design has ample deck space if you think theres ever the possiblity there will be more than dual meets held there. I've been to way too many nice pools where there is barely anywhere to sit for the competitors once you get a bunch of teams there.

What type of pool is this? Community? School? etc? You may want to consider a diving well on one side if it would ever be needed for that as well.

Obviously my suggestions could add tens of thousands of dollars to a pool design but I think its things worth thinking about if you haven't even broken ground yet. You might be glad you did some day.

Rob Copeland
June 26th, 2012, 11:18 AM
What are you planning on using the pool for? Recreation, training, competition, lessons,etc. And how much do you plan on programming for each?

If you plan on running big swim meets, then pool dimensional tolerances (with touch pads) is critical, as is the selection of timing equipment, wiring, and scoreboard. Also sound system and swimmer/spectator space.

And without knowing programming it is tough to provide specific advice.

USA Swimming has some very good resources for those planning on building an aquatic facility. You may wish to contact them or if you are in Omaha for Trials you can sign up for their Build a Pool conference July 1st http://www.regonline.com/builder/site/Default.aspx?EventID=1072566

knelson
June 26th, 2012, 11:24 AM
Obviously my suggestions could add tens of thousands of dollars to a pool design but I think its things worth thinking about if you haven't even broken ground yet. You might be glad you did some day.

It would definitely be a much larger pool. Their current configuration gives a pool with a volume of approximately 691 cubic meters. A 25m X 25yd pool with the same depth would be 957 cubic meters, so almost 40% larger by volume.

fmracing
June 26th, 2012, 11:29 AM
It would definitely be a much larger pool. Their current configuration gives a pool with a volume of approximately 691 cubic meters. A 25m X 25yd pool with the same depth would be 957 cubic meters, so almost 40% larger by volume.


yeah but OP was consideing a 20.4m wide pool. Whats 2 more meters to make 25y? To be honest though... why bother with meters at all unless you're going to 50? In the states theres almost no point in scm pools imo i was just offering options to preserve the odd notion of wanting 25m length being available.

I did forget the touchpad thickness though. Awesome point, Rob.

knelson
June 26th, 2012, 11:33 AM
yeah but OP was consideing a 20.4m wide pool. Whats 2 more meters to make 25y?

I think your suggestion is definitely worth considering. Having the pool 25 yards wide certainly makes it more flexible for competition (by the same token they might consider a removeable bulkhead to allow for 25 yard competition). I just wanted to point out what seems like a small adjustment makes a substantial difference in the volume of the pool. That means more money to build the pool, but also more money to maintain the pool.

fmracing
June 26th, 2012, 11:56 AM
I just wanted to point out what seems like a small adjustment makes a substantial difference in the volume of the pool. That means more money to build the pool, but also more money to maintain the pool.

Definitely does from the original 16m wide plan.

If this increase is a huge concern heres what i'd do then...

If OP is married to the idea of 16.5m wide. Then nix the small pool at 4.5m wide and add it to the large pool with a bulkhead.

Get one pool 16.5m wide and 30.5m long. Put in a 1m bulkhead so you can run 25y or 25m meets and taper the depth past 25m so that it can support your kiddie pool on the short side of the bulkhead. Only one pool to dig, two less walls to build, one filtration system, but a split pool with close to the original dimensions. Obviously couldn't be two differen't temperatures though.

A local pool has this exact design with the exception that it is 25y wide. The short pool next to the bulkhead is full depth, but has a riser setup so that it is only 3 feet depth on that side of the bulkhead whereas the pool is 6-7feet.

msgrupp
June 26th, 2012, 12:08 PM
Hey, I would like to get some advice and ideas for building this pool.

Also, I would like to hear ideas about locker rooms, we are planing on building 4 of them, 2 for adults and 2 for childrens, with diferent showers and lockers.

That's about it, any suggestions, ideas, or things you would like to change in the pool your are currently swimming are very welcome.\

If this is a pool that everyone can use--you might want to consider what are "family bathrooms" which can be used by the handicapped who need assistance and the attendant might be of the opposite sex (handicapped husband being cared for by a wife, handicapped child there with the parent of the opposite sex) or even mothers with a couple of small children who need to be closely supervised.

Have you also considered any kind of handicapped access to the pool--lifts and such?

I'm tired of having 4-5 year old boys in my female dressing area when I want to take a shower and I don't think 4-5 year old boys (or even girls) should be left on their own to make it out to the pool when going thru a dressing/changing room. Helicopter parents aren't always desired but would you want your unsupervised kid (even with other children) running free in a public bathroom?

new
June 26th, 2012, 12:30 PM
Thanks for the responses.

I forgot to mention that the pool will be build in South America, (I used to live in Ohio), so meters are the rule down here.


What is the point of the second pool at 4.5m wide? Thats alot of expense for a pool so thin. Why not use that to expand the larger pool?

We are planing on using that pool for kids and for old people that like higher water temperature, so they don't complain all the time about the main pool temperature.


Along the same lines, if you're considering having it 20.4m x 25m. Why not make it 25y x 25m and size the depth properly so that you can do starts from either direction and have either scy or scm meets held there?

There are not SCY competitions here, and the idea of a 20.4 meter wide haven't been put on the table yet, for now the architect is planing a 16.5x25, I just said that as an alternative solution to meet the 2.5 meter rule and have 8 lines.


What type of pool is this? Community? School? etc? You may want to consider a diving well on one side if it would ever be needed for that as well.

I don't know how would you call it in the states, the pool is for a "sports club" that has many social activities & teams: soccer, basketball, weight lifting, etc. The problem I mentioned in the first post is that all these people can use the locker rooms, but they have to pay and extra amount of money to do an activity in the pool, so we have some dificulties designing the access control system.


Obviously my suggestions could add tens of thousands of dollars to a pool design but I think its things worth thinking about if you haven't even broken ground yet. You might be glad you did some day.

That's why I'm asking :)


My feeling* is two meter wide lanes is sufficient unless you plan to host major national or international competition. Considering the second pool is more or less a "kiddie" pool I'm assuming this is not the case. One advantage of the 2.5 meter lanes would be that you might be able to configure the pool as ten lanes for training purposes. The bottom and end markings would be useless with the ten lane setup, of course

That's a good point, We thought 2 meters was sufficient too, then I was reading the rules again, and it said 2.5 meters...



What are you planning on using the pool for? Recreation, training, competition, lessons,etc. And how much do you plan on programming for each?

Actually we are looking to put as many activities as posible.

Most of the time is dedicated for schools and swimming lessons, but we are also planning on having a high volume training team, masters team, recreational activities and hidrogymnastics.


If you plan on running big swim meets, then pool dimensional tolerances (with touch pads) is critical, as is the selection of timing equipment, wiring, and scoreboard. Also sound system and swimmer/spectator space.

This is a hard question because if we decide to not meet the rule of 2.5 meter minimun in between lines, I don't know what kind of swim meets we will be able to run, and how woth it would it be to spend time and money on equipment and perfect dimensions. It obviously adds a lot to the pool quality, but since I'm the person working with the numbers, I tend to look for optimal trade offs between quality and profitability.


Get one pool 16.5m wide and 30.5m long. Put in a 1m bulkhead so you can run 25y or 25m meets and taper the depth past 25m so that it can support your kiddie pool on the short side of the bulkhead. Only one pool to dig, two less walls to build, one filtration system, but a split pool with close to the original dimensions. Obviously couldn't be two differen't temperatures though.


That's a really good point, it was a long argument with the team whether we should build one or two pools, the temperature factor was key, since it's very common for people to complain about temperature being to high or too low, or about the pool being too deep, that's why the second pool is only 1.20 and we are planning on making it 35 celsius degress

Rob Copeland
June 26th, 2012, 01:47 PM
That's a good point, We thought 2 meters was sufficient too, then I was reading the rules again, and it said 2.5 meters...The 2.5 meter lanes are for FINA meets. Check your National Governing Body rules for facility standards. For example in USA Swimming the 2.5M rule only applies to national championships, otherwise 7 feet (2.13 meters) is the minimum.

Your NGB facilities standards will also give you other dimensional requirements (depth, markings, etc)


Actually we are looking to put as many activities as posible.

Most of the time is dedicated for schools and swimming lessons, but we are also planning on having a high volume training team, masters team, recreational activities and hidrogymnastics.Programming will dictate HVAC and gutter/pump/filtration considerations.

fmracing
June 26th, 2012, 02:19 PM
I forgot to mention that the pool will be build in South America, (I used to live in Ohio), so meters are the rule down here.


25m makes sense then given that info. :) You may want to check into local ordinances as far as pool capacity in number of people with that small of a pool for the older people and children. Make sure what you build will handle a typical "load" during busy times. If most your people want to be in the smaller warmer pool and its always at capacity, then thats not good either.

Sojerz
June 26th, 2012, 03:14 PM
It has always seemed to me that many pools get built with narrower purposes in mind (like recreation), and then over the years as swimming interest increases, the use changes into more intense uses (competition, teams etc.)that require additional deck space, locker rooms, warm-up pools, bleachers, bathrooms, food service, tables, shade, timing and score boards, etc. Even if you don't have the intentions or $s for these more intense needs and uses now, it would be worth planning a footprint ahead for these possiblities so that you don't box yourself in. Think about people and how they will be interacting with the facilities now and into the future.

Get a good architect that knows pool design and is up to speed on the latest technoloy too. I think we've all been in pools where the architect was clueless. Once the plans are about 80% complete, take them to an independent recognized swimming director/coach that has been around the sport for years and ask them to look it over. He might spot a fatal flaw.

Because you can not easily expand a pool itself, building it with adequate size, flexibilty, lanes, gutters, access, and depth for 25-50 years into the future is probably your most important initial decision. LCM pool would be great, if you can do it.

Is this pool is outdoors or indoors?? I assumed outdoors. Indoor pool areas IMHO are moer contrained and harder to expand, so planning for the future is perhaps more important indoors.

Also, a few unisex individual cabana changing rooms (like at airports) could solve the problem of parents changing little kids in a lockeroom for the opposite sex.

:2cents:

msgrupp
June 26th, 2012, 04:45 PM
decision. LCM pool would be great, if you can do it.


Also, a few unisex individual cabana changing rooms (like at airports) could solve the problem of parents changing little kids in a lockeroom for the opposite sex.

:2cents:

Would you like to, as an adult with a disability, have to deal with something like a cabana rather than the same type of facility offered to an able bodied person?

The cabana solves the problem of changing but what about the problem of taking a shower or using a handicapped toilet?

While South America might not have something equivalent to the Americans with Disabilities Act--I'm SURE (what with a warm water pool) that the disabled might want to be included.

Sojerz
June 26th, 2012, 07:26 PM
Would you like to, as an adult with a disability, have to deal with something like a cabana rather than the same type of facility offered to an able bodied person?

The cabana solves the problem of changing but what about the problem of taking a shower or using a handicapped toilet?

While South America might not have something equivalent to the Americans with Disabilities Act--I'm SURE (what with a warm water pool) that the disabled might want to be included.

Who said anything about relegating disabled persons to individual changing rooms?? ADA (or the south american equivalent standard) compliant (aka accessible) facilities should be built and avaialble in all of the locker rooms, pools, and facilities.

My suggestion was intended to address people, as you brought up, that are sensitive to Moms taking their 5 yr old boys into the women's locker room or Dad's taking their 5 year old girls into the men's locker room. A few small changing rooms (cabanas) would provide for that need, and some of these shoud be accessible too!

EJB190
June 26th, 2012, 09:45 PM
Overall, I guess my biggest piece of advice is have plenty of deck space if you'e planning to have events at the pool. Also, have locker rooms large enough to fit 2 teams. I've seen beautiful pools with locker rooms designed for 1 team or less. Once you get 40-50 guys in it, it's claustrophobic. I suppose if you have adult and child locker rooms, during meets where the pools are used you could designate a locker room to each team (assuming only 2 teams).

My local pool has 5 locker rooms which I find very useful.

1) Girls'
2) Boys'
3) Womans'
4) Mens'
5) "Family/Handicapped" (meant mostly for mothers changing children, but also handicapped who need assistance getting changed).

I think you have a couple options for access control. No easy solution though.
1) Put the poolside openings of the locker rooms together in a hallway leading toward the pool. Have staff member at a desk at the end of the hallway before the pool to check the membership of each person attempting to enter. This of course requires a person to work the desk and a way of the swimmer to show their credentials (ID that they have to carry in or a computer system to search for the person by name, which would be tedious).

2) The other option I see would be to have keycards, RF fobs, barcodes to unlock the doors. This doesn't really allow 100% security as people can slip through the closing doors. If the people have an ID to get in the building in the first place, use this ID to also allow them into the pool area. Obviously this is a more expensive and complicated option. People won't necessarily want to bring their keys/cards with them into the pool.

To get into the gym area of one of the college pools I use there are these "turnstiles" where you tap your ID card and then you walk through (theres no bar, just sensors). If you don't tap, an alarm goes off. It's kinda like a lot of subway stations use minus the doors or metal bars.

If you have the luxury of having locker rooms specifically for the pool and you can control the access at the beginning before the pool locker rooms, that'd be easier than controlling it after the locker rooms. That ways swimmers can take care of the security before they get in the locker room (they can put away their ID or w/e) or the person checking the credentials might be able to be dedicated to more tasks like working the front desk.

I guess access control would provide you interesting and fairly accurate statistics on pool use.

arthur
June 27th, 2012, 11:46 AM
For access control all the public pools around where I live have paper wristbands that have a different colour/pattern each day. The lifeguard can then tell if everyone has paid. They aren't ideal for lap swimming though.

Kevin in MD
June 27th, 2012, 02:18 PM
1) Main pool:

25 x 16.5 meters

But there is this one rule I missed the first time I read it:

"Lanes shall be at least 2.5 metres wide, with two spaces of at least 0.2 metre outside of the first and last lanes"

We actually planed 8 lanes, 2.0 meters wide, and 0.5 metre outside of the first and last lanes.



I've recently been through this.

If you go with 2 meter wide lanes, it will not be practical for adults to share lanes and you will drastically cut down the number of people who can comfortably use the pool.

We swim in a pool with 7 foot wide lanes, 2.2 meters and it is a tight squeeze to get the team in and share. 8 feet is comfortable for adults to circle swim in. 9 feet is luxurious.

I can absolutely tell you that if you stick with the 2 meter wide lanes, you will absolutely be limiting the success of your adult swim programming whether that be masters swimming or triathlete classes.

If you need to stay at 16.5 meters then make it 6 lanes and go 2.5 meters. Or 7 lanes that way meets would have 6 lanes available for swimming and 1 cool down lane.

That's my recommendation.

Also, check the depth recommendations for teaching dive starts. I think it is 2 meter depth out for 9 meters from the starting end.

EJB190
June 28th, 2012, 11:54 PM
For access control all the public pools around where I live have paper wristbands that have a different colour/pattern each day. The lifeguard can then tell if everyone has paid. They aren't ideal for lap swimming though.

That would annoy me greatly. Anything on my body other than a bathing suit annoys the crap out of me when swimming. Just being able to feel the asymmetric flow of water and the bracelet bouncing around drives me nuts.