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jim thornton
July 10th, 2012, 01:40 PM
Having been burned in the past with swims that end up not counting for Top 10 consideration, I have some questions about a meet this Sunday that I am thinking about going to: http://www.usms.org/comp/event.php?MeetID=20120715SS8LCML

First, they do have timing pads, but I heard that these may not be working. If they have to do hand timing, does that mean times won't count for TT consideration?

Second, the final event of the day is the 400 Free/IM, with each swimmer picking one or the other (you can't do both). If I sign up for the 400 free and someone is swimming the 400 IM in the same heat, are the times invalid for TT consideration? (I made the mistake last year of swimming several events in the "Open" category and none of them counted officially.)

Thanks! This is one of the few LCM meets I can actually drive to, but I don't want to waste the gas money if it's going to be all for naught!

matysekj
July 10th, 2012, 02:41 PM
First, they do have timing pads, but I heard that these may not be working. If they have to do hand timing, does that mean times won't count for TT consideration?

105.2.3 says that "In order for a time to be valid for Top 10 times consideration, a minimum timing quality of two manual times, averaged per USMS rules (see article 103.17.3) shall be used."


Second, the final event of the day is the 400 Free/IM, with each swimmer picking one or the other (you can't do both). If I sign up for the 400 free and someone is swimming the 400 IM in the same heat, are the times invalid for TT consideration? (I made the mistake last year of swimming several events in the "Open" category and none of them counted officially.)

This event seems to run counter to the prohibition against "choice" events where the swimmer declares what event they are swimming at the blocks. Such events are not allowable for top 10 consideration. HOWEVER, my understanding is that it would be perfectly acceptable if they separated the 400's into distinct events 12 and 13 on the entry information and indicated that these two events *may* be conducted together in one heat to save time at the meet. In that case, they should probably put the IMers on one half of the pool and the freestylers on the other half. You may want to contact the meet host and ask them to make that change to make these events legal. This is just my understanding of the situation - it may not be 100% correct. You should verify with Chris Stevenson before committing to this.

You may also want to check with the meet host. I thought that the Maryland swim series meets were subsidized by the LMSC with no entry fees and were therefore for MD LMSC members only.

smontanaro
July 10th, 2012, 02:53 PM
In that case, they should probably put the IMers on one half of the pool and the freestylers on the other half.

That would be cool to have the IMers start at one end and the freestylers at the other end. Who would win? Would the free folks slip under the lethal arms of the butterflyers? Passing that test, would they survive the backstrokers' s strokes? What about the evil stroke's kicks?

Oh, wait, you mean split them up by lanes... Never mind. :D

Chris Stevenson
July 10th, 2012, 04:48 PM
105.2.3 says that "In order for a time to be valid for Top 10 times consideration, a minimum timing quality of two manual times, averaged per USMS rules (see article 103.17.3) shall be used."

This event seems to run counter to the prohibition against "choice" events where the swimmer declares what event they are swimming at the blocks. Such events are not allowable for top 10 consideration. HOWEVER, my understanding is that it would be perfectly acceptable if they separated the 400's into distinct events 12 and 13 on the entry information and indicated that these two events *may* be conducted together in one heat to save time at the meet. In that case, they should probably put the IMers on one half of the pool and the freestylers on the other half. You may want to contact the meet host and ask them to make that change to make these events legal. This is just my understanding of the situation - it may not be 100% correct. You should verify with Chris Stevenson before committing to this.

You may also want to check with the meet host. I thought that the Maryland swim series meets were subsidized by the LMSC with no entry fees and were therefore for MD LMSC members only.

As Jim says, two watches or semiautomatic times (buttons) are fine for Top Ten (FINA/USMS records require three however).

The rule is that the event has to be listed in Article 102.5 (and "200 choice," for example, fails this test). I'm going to verify with Kathy Casey, but my instinct is that this case is okay. I agree with Jim that it would be "cleaner" to give them different event numbers, but he is also correct that it is okay to combine different events into one heat in order to save time.

Ultimately the main thing is to avoid the ambiguity for S&T judges: they have to know what event each swimmer is doing in order to apply the proper rules. For example, one can do a 200 butterfly with one-handed turns and it would be perfectly legal in a "200 free" event...or a "200 choice," I guess. I think that the case described here does avoid the ambiguity as long as the judges know which event each swimmer actually entered. They would face the same problem even if they were numbered separately.

I'll refer Kathy to this thread and we'll see what she says.

As far as eligibility to enter the meet, it seems like it is open to other LMSCs. At least, I got as far as the point of entering my CC number (they were going to charge me $15). The link to online entry is

https://www.clubassistant.com/club/meet_information.cfm?c=1029&smid=4102

The Fortress
July 10th, 2012, 04:50 PM
I registered last night and paid a fee, so it appears non-MD LMSC folk can swim. There are some Ancient Mariners from PV competing as well.

As I recall, and not that I looked closely, the 400 IM and 400 free were listed separately with different event numbers on the meet entry form.

Chris Stevenson
July 10th, 2012, 04:52 PM
As I recall, and not that I looked closely, the 400 IM and 400 free were listed separately with different event numbers on the meet entry form.

Gosh, that's correct (I just looked). 400 free is #12 and 400 IM is #13, though I didn't see any prohibition from entering both (I tried).

So Fort, which did you enter? :bolt:

The Fortress
July 10th, 2012, 04:55 PM
So Fort, which did you enter? :bolt:

Isn't it sufficiently shocking that I entered a meet with NO 50s?

I am curious as to whether FINA accepts manual timing for FINA TT.

Kathy Casey
July 10th, 2012, 06:21 PM
Chris and Jim are correct that a primary timing system consisting of two manual watches per lane meets the requirements for USMS Top 10 (105.2.3 and 103.18.4). Also remember that Chris is correct that USMS (national) records and FINA (world) records require 3 watches (103.18.4).

The entry form was done correctly for the 400 free and the 400 IM. Information regarding “Open” and “Choice” events has been published 4 times in issues of Streamlines (7/25/07, 4/25/09, 4/9/10, and 11/14/10). Don’t do “Open” or “Choice” events. Let me know if you would like to see any of these articles. Yes, the 400 free and 400 IM can be run together (102.10.1B, “…events of the same distance 200 yards or longer may be combined…”). If there would be only one heat, the meet director may want to seed the IMers in one half of the pool and the freestylers in the other half of the pool to make it easier for the officials, but I’m guessing this is a bigger meet than that and they will likely have full heats of freestyle and full heats of IM with a potential for only one combined heat.

FINA accepts manual timing for FINA Masters Top 10. The USMS Top 10, which includes valid 2-watch times, is submitted to FINA by USMS for Top 10 compilation.

When you need “rule booking”, contact rules@usms.org to get accurate rules information quickly.

jim thornton
July 10th, 2012, 07:44 PM
Thanks to one and all for answering my questions, plus the question Leslie had that I didn't think of (the business about FINA TT). I truly appreciate it!

rodent
July 11th, 2012, 01:36 PM
Jim based on my past experience with the Top 10, it's my opinion that your times will only count in Canada!:canada:

tjrpatt
July 12th, 2012, 01:26 PM
Isn't it sufficiently shocking that I entered a meet with NO 50s?

I am curious as to whether FINA accepts manual timing for FINA TT.

If I can remember correctly, the UMBC LCM Meet had touchpads. It just didn't have a working scoreboard.

jim thornton
July 12th, 2012, 05:01 PM
Jim based on my past experience with the Top 10, it's my opinion that your times will only count in Canada!:canada:

To make the Canadian Top 10, and join that long list of inspirational Sasquatch, hosers, and beaver-trappers, eh, has been my ambition for longer than I can remember. If only my times would count up there!


If I can remember correctly, the UMBC LCM Meet had touchpads. It just didn't have a working scoreboard.

Are you going? I did sign up last night and hope the meet doesn't get stopped because of the 96 degree heat and predicted thunderstorms!

orca1946
July 13th, 2012, 12:55 AM
Kathy - thanx for all the info . I have never seen a split event with 1/2 of the pool doing a diff. event/stroke. It must be a smaller meet that this could take place.

Kathy Casey
July 13th, 2012, 01:39 AM
They usually are smaller meets.