PDA

View Full Version : Disqualified???



Nickel
July 15th, 2012, 02:56 PM
I recently posted a question about racing and received a lot of great answers so here is another question. I am about to participate in my first race (in a pool) and I am worried about being disqualified now. What are some of the common mistakes I need to be aware of? Turns maybe?

Jazz Hands
July 15th, 2012, 03:29 PM
In freestyle, you just have to not move at all before the start, touch every wall, and don't pull on the lane lines.

gdanner
July 15th, 2012, 05:19 PM
In freestyle, you just have to not move at all before the start, touch every wall, and don't pull on the lane lines.

And Nickel should refrain from attacking swimmers in other lanes as well as pushing off the bottom of the pool in a forward direction.

Fins25
July 15th, 2012, 05:42 PM
Breaststroke and butterfly you need to touch the wall with both hands on the turn and the finish. Good luck in your races

knelson
July 15th, 2012, 06:38 PM
Breaststroke and butterfly you need to touch the wall simultaneously with both hands on the turn and the finish.

FIFY.

The Fortress
July 15th, 2012, 07:27 PM
In freestyle, you just have to not move at all before the start, touch every wall, and don't pull on the lane lines.

And if you're kicking underwater, you still have to break the surface before the 15 meter mark.

quicksilver
July 15th, 2012, 08:23 PM
And you're not allowed to swear especially during the turns.

Also...do not wear a watch or any jewelry. Wrist bracelets or dangling earrings will get you disqualified as well.

Swimosaur
July 15th, 2012, 08:49 PM
In freestyle, you just have to not move at all before the start ...

This is key. When the ref says, "Take your mark", get into position quickly, and DON'T MOVE. I got DQ'd once in a freestyle race for flinching. Yes, it was 1000 free, and yes, they let me swim the whole race. Don't let it happen to you!

Also ... when you finish the race, stay in your own lane until all the other swimmers have finished. If you want to get out before everyone else is done, get out at the end of your own lane. Do not swim across anyone else's lane to get to a ladder or something.

jaadams1
July 15th, 2012, 09:09 PM
And you're not allowed to swear especially during the turns.

Also...do not wear a watch or any jewelry. Wrist bracelets or dangling earrings will get you disqualified as well.


Really? How many masters swimmers out there swim and compete with their wedding ring on? I don't, but I know a lot who do. The reason I don't, is because I swam so much of my life without the ring, that it just feels weird on my hand when I do have it on in the water.

EJB190
July 15th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Don't wear jewelry. It's a really easy way to get DQ'ed. One time in high school at the same meet two girls got DQ'ed for jewelry on separate occasions. The coach was not happy, along with the rest of the team.

Don't get out of the pool until everyone finishes. I've seen DQ's for that a few times.

You can't touch your goggles. Say for instance you dive in in the 500 and your goggles fall off and are hanging on your neck- tough luck you cant fix them.

Touching the bottom of the pool is also prohibited. This can be a problem with poor turns in shallow pools.

knelson
July 15th, 2012, 10:02 PM
I'm not sure I buy the "no jewelry" thing. I just searched the swimming rules section of the USMS rule book and jewelry does not come up. Unless you're wearing a Mr. T gold chain I can't imagine it would be a problem! :)

Michael Blatt
July 15th, 2012, 10:42 PM
You can't touch your goggles. Say for instance you dive in in the 500 and your goggles fall off and are hanging on your neck- tough luck you cant fix them.



I believe in Masters messing with goggles is OK, as long as you don't otherwise break a stroke rule. So in freestyle you would be OK as long as you don't stand on the bottom or hang on a lane line while you are fixing them. But in fly or breast it would be very difficult to maintain stroke and fix goggles at the same time.

A team mate of mine fixed his goggles on both the start and 1st turn of his 1500 free at Omaha, without a DQ; I saw a swimmer get DQ'd out of the 200 fly at Greensboro for breaking stroke to fix his.

Bill Sive
July 15th, 2012, 10:50 PM
Body Piercing/Jewelry is OK I asked about it a long time ago. I was told not to worry about it. If in doubt ask the official at the meet before the meet starts.

I was recently DQ'd and I did nothing wrong. How did I get DQ'd? I was swimming a 1650, the persons who were counting my lap with a lap counter miscounted. I ended up swimming a 1600 instead of a 1650. No one noticed not the timer's/volunteers assigned to my lane, the officials, I even got a 2nd place ribbon. It was discovered two months after the fact by the Top Ten Recorder. No one ever informed me of what happened. I saw the DQ on my results page on the USMS website. I questioned USMS about it. It took another week to get the correct answer. Make sure you can rely on your lap counter if you are swimming a long distance, or at least be good at counting your own laps.

rxleakem
July 15th, 2012, 10:55 PM
3510

Sounds silly, but make sure you verify the distance and a stroke before getting ready to start. At two meets this year I have seen folks dive in and take two strokes of a different stroke right off the blocks.

Do you know what events you are doing?

knelson
July 15th, 2012, 11:58 PM
Yeah, pretty sure there's nothing wrong with fixing your goggles as long as it doesn't cause some other stroke violation. An example would be in a breaststroke race where you stop to fix your goggles but continue to kick. This would violate the "one arm stroke, one kick" sequence requirement in breast. If you need to fix your goggles it's best to do it at the turn where you can do whatever you want once you touch the wall legally.

I also checked the USA Swimming rule book and the only mention of jewelry is in the open water section. You may not wear jewelry (including watches) in OW swims. The rationale is obvious in OW swimming where lots of swimmers are in close proximity.

swimmieAvsFan
July 16th, 2012, 08:16 AM
Regarding jewelry, the only set of rules where it is expressly forbidden is NFHS (high school sports). For masters meets, jewelry is fine- I have 3 holes in each ear and wear earrings all the time, and I've never once been asked to take them out.

For USMS pool swimming, watches are also okay, as long as they are not being used as a pacing device. The best bet with watches is to not wear one, so that there is no question as to whether or not you're using it for pacing. I'm not familiar with our rules for open water, so I'm not sure if we follow USA-S rules for watches or not.

Rob Copeland
July 16th, 2012, 08:59 AM
I was recently DQ'd and I did nothing wrong...I ended up swimming a 1600 instead of a 1650.:confused::confused::confused:
Um, you didn’t swim the correct distance and you didn’t do anything wrong? In the event of official or counter error, it is the responsibility of the swimmer to complete the prescribed distance. You were obviously unaware of the infraction and it was committed without intent, but it was your swim.

The fact that you were not informed of the DQ seems a bit odd. The referee or designated official should make every reasonable effort to seek out the swimmer and inform you as to the reason for the disqualification. Even if it is after the fact.

If you want to press the issue, you could request to see the DQ slip and make sure it was signed by the meet referee.

chowmi
July 16th, 2012, 09:34 AM
Before directly answering your question, the real question is - why are you afraid/concerned about getting disqualified?

First, it is not the end of the world to get disqualified. I completely understand being afraid and concerned, but really, it is not going to change how anyone thinks of you.

As a novice, getting DQ'd is a good thing. It is immediately feedback that you are doing something really wrong - that you clearly didn't get the benefit of a doubt (say, 50%), and that the stroke/turn/start judge was looking at you (argueable, 25% as they cover 4 lanes). So even with a 12.5% blended chance that you would get Dq'd, you did, so it shows something you really have to work on.

Second, if you are concerned, then you should be going back over what you do day after day, and what you don't do right that is causing you to now, on the eve of racing, to worry about whether you can do it right or not.

Third, try always go into a meet with the following mantra: "I know i'm going to do well, the only question is how well?" You never want to be asking yourself, will I swim legally, can I finish a race, will I get disqualified, etc etc. If you do, then you haven't been executing the important elements in practice.

And now, to answer your question, I agree with nearly all the posts above. I don't think you will have need of Fort's 15 meter post just yet, as that is a very advanced thing. Simply as a factoid, the 15 meters refers to your HEAD, not the tips of your hands, and by your head, that means your chin. So if you have really long fingers, hands, and arms, and a long face and pointy chin, you are great luck as you can essentially pick up like, 3 extra feet further! I credit chowsh for explaining this to me. I am not sure if you open your mouth really wide and drop your jaw if you can pick up 3 more inches, but that may only be for someone like Fort.

Yes, 2 handed simul touches on breast/fly. The trickiest turn IMO is backstroke, as you have no going-backsies option (free) or the relatively easy 2 handed double touchyness (breast/fly). The back turn has to be timed perfectly as the rule states it is a continuous motion, so if you are too far, you can't backpedal and get away with it. One way to eek out and save a back turn that is too far is to keep that 1-handed free turn arm in front of you, and not pull back right away, or else you are stuck kicking head first and that's an easy dq to spot. Hoever, with the hand up in front, you could arguably say you were in motion, continuous motion, so save yourself a dq if not a very clean turn.

In free, you simply have to touch the wall with any part of your body, so if you are too close and do a head cram, with body parts both on the wall and in the gutters or up in the air, as long as any part of your body, hopefully not your face only, are on the wall, somewhere on the wall, that's still ok. Or if you miss it completely, you can go backwards yell oh crap and still be legal. Google fixing optional, but yes, legal.

A total bummer for our poster who only went 1600. However, even an elite may miscount and do extra in free and you won't be dq'd, since you just have to touch with any part of your body, including your feetsies as you miscount another 50 or 100.

Finishes, like turns, have to be a legal finish for that stroke, so you have to 2 handy on breast/fly and finish on your back and have some part of your body not submerged on the back.

Butterfrog is legal in masters. It is a mirror image kick (each leg doing the same as the other leg), not limited to the traditional thinking of the dolphin action only.

Someone else may want to comment more on the UW breast pullout.

And last, my advice to any novice is to have a coach and your closest swim buds give you a "challenge event" in workout. Have them simulate what it would be like in a race. Have them walk you through a meet, from the warm up to doing the event in front of them, and then even do the warm down. Then it won't be so foreign when you actually go to a swim meet.

The Fortress
July 16th, 2012, 09:56 AM
The back turn has to be timed perfectly as the rule states it is a continuous motion, so if you are too far, you can't backpedal and get away with it. One way to eek out and save a back turn that is too far is to keep that 1-handed free turn arm in front of you, and not pull back right away, or else you are stuck kicking head first and that's an easy dq to spot. Hoever, with the hand up in front, you could arguably say you were in motion, continuous motion, so save yourself a dq if not a very clean turn.

Google fixing optional, but yes, legal.



Actually, on a backstroke turn, the only thing that matters is the top half of the body. You can get deeked either by (1) failure to initiate the pull after turning on your belly or (2) failure to initiate the turn after taking your one pull (head must move, hips up, etc, for there to be continuous motion). So if you leave the one arm extended without any motion and just kick, that is DQ #1. To avoid a DQ if you are too far out, you should do a slow continuous sculling type of pull with the extended arm to get yourself closer to the wall for the flip.

You can actually adjust your goggles at any turn. However, for breast and fly, this can only be done after a legal touch for that stroke and before pushing off the wall. The wall is like free space. For backstroke, either adjust goggles staying on your back. Or touch the wall on your back, adjust goggles and push off on your back.

knelson
July 16th, 2012, 10:42 AM
For backstroke, either adjust goggles staying on your back. Or touch the wall on your back, adjust goggles and push off on your back.

Yeah, the rules for the swim portion of backstroke are about as simple as they could possibly be: stay on your back. Other than that you can do whatever you want.

quicksilver
July 16th, 2012, 11:00 AM
I've been to a couple of meets where swimmers wearing watches were given a warning but no DQ. Technically timing devices could assist a swimmer with their pace.

But regarding jewelry I stand corrected as the rule is only for college and high school meets. The same refs who officiate our masters meets had DQ'd a few high school girls for having hoops in their ears. Studs in ears apparently are ok.

The Fortress
July 16th, 2012, 11:00 AM
Yeah, the rules for the swim portion of backstroke are about as simple as they could possibly be: stay on your back. Other than that you can do whatever you want.

Yep, except go under the lane line by accident and return to your own lane. Then you would be fully submerged before the finish.

Swimosaur
July 16th, 2012, 12:19 PM
Further down the rabbit hole ...

An Individual Medley (IM) event is actually four small races, back-to-back. This has no effect for fly, breast, and free, but for backstroke, it means you have to finish the backstroke leg using a legal backstroke finish, which is to say, ON YOUR BACK. You are not allowed to turn over on your front and do a flipturn, then push off into the breastroke leg, as it might seem natural to do, and as would be legal at the end of any other length of backstroke (except for the finish). It has to be a legal backstroke finish. I've seen several DQ's for this.

Also, on a backstroke start, you are not allowed to curl your toes over the gutter (if a gutter is present). Your toes ARE allowed to be above the water line, but they have to stay on the flat part of the wall.

orca1946
July 16th, 2012, 12:45 PM
You can touch the bottom as long as you do not push off to gain forward movement. If you are choking - stand up , regain composure & pull your legs up off the bottom ---- then start swimmingYou may never see this in a race,but it is legal.

chowmi
July 16th, 2012, 12:50 PM
Actually, on a backstroke turn, the only thing that matters is the top half of the body. You can get deeked either by (1) failure to initiate the pull after turning on your belly or (2) failure to initiate the turn after taking your one pull (head must move, hips up, etc, for there to be continuous motion). So if you leave the one arm extended without any motion and just kick, that is DQ #1. To avoid a DQ if you are too far out, you should do a slow continuous sculling type of pull with the extended arm to get yourself closer to the wall for the flip.

You can actually adjust your goggles at any turn. However, for breast and fly, this can only be done after a legal touch for that stroke and before pushing off the wall. The wall is like free space. For backstroke, either adjust goggles staying on your back. Or touch the wall on your back, adjust goggles and push off on your back.

Yes, better put. I did not put it out and keep it stationary, but rather, move it realy slow instead of pulling back and kicking head first. Continuous motion, albeit really slow. Better to practice getting the right place to take that last stroke and flip over, but knowing the rule helps in case you are too far.

chowmi
July 16th, 2012, 12:54 PM
And in the event you are too close and take an incher of a stroke or jam the wall, you can touch (hopefully not with your face) while on your tummy but you must push off on your back, keeping a continous motion, if not very graceful as you make eye contact with the turn judge and give him that pleading look in your eyes, see, i was continuous! no dq-y!

Sojerz
July 16th, 2012, 12:59 PM
Further down the rabbit hole ...

An Individual Medley (IM) event is actually four small races, back-to-back. This has no effect for fly, breast, and free, but for backstroke, it means you have to finish the backstroke leg using a legal backstroke finish, which is to say, ON YOUR BACK. You are not allowed to turn over on your front and do a flipturn, then push off into the breastroke leg, as it might seem natural to do, and as would be legal at the end of any other length of backstroke (except for the finish). It has to be a legal backstroke finish. I've seen several DQ's for this.

Also, on a backstroke start, you are not allowed to curl your toes over the gutter (if a gutter is present). Your toes ARE allowed to be above the water line, but they have to stay on the flat part of the wall.

Thanks for the post, ive been wondering about the back-breast IM turn for over a year and thought that must be the case based on TV coverages from meets. Didn't know about the toes and gutter either.


Touching the bottom of the pool is also prohibited. This can be a problem with poor turns in shallow pools.

As a very young AGer (think about 7-8ish), I got beat in a 25m mixed race in the bay by a friend who was walking on the bottom and making swimming motions on top of the water. I could see her feet while i was swimming, but apprantly the water was sufficently murky that the ref couldn't. My parent's convinced me it would be unsportsmen like to rat her out.


Sounds silly, but make sure you verify the distance and a stroke before getting ready to start. At two meets this year I have seen folks dive in and take two strokes of a different stroke right off the blocks.


This is pretty easy to do, i think. ive seem it at HS meets and usms meets. Think it's not supposed to be sign of Alzheimers unless you for get to swim at all. :)

Rob Copeland
July 16th, 2012, 01:09 PM
Touching the bottom of the pool is also prohibited.Touching the bottom of the pool is allowed. However:
“Standing on the bottom during a freestyle race shall not disqualify a swimmer, but the swimmer must not leave the pool, walk or spring from the bottom. Standing on the bottom during any other stroke shall result in disqualification.”

osterber
July 16th, 2012, 04:38 PM
And remember that in the IM, you can't do fly, back, or breast for the 'freestyle' leg.

-Rick

arthur
July 16th, 2012, 06:48 PM
In the Canadian masters rules watches are banned and at the meets I have been to officials will disqualify any swimmer who wears one. They usually make an announcement at the beginning of the meet to not wear any watches.

That Guy
July 16th, 2012, 07:06 PM
make sure to wear a swimsuit

aztimm
July 17th, 2012, 06:22 PM
From my experiences, which are a bit limited, I've found that the meet refs don't really pay much attention to the slower heats of most events.

2 years ago, I dove in for a 50 LCM breast, somehow thought it was a 50 free and did a ton of dolphin kicks. I realized what I had done, surfaced, and just swam the rest of the length easy breast expecting a DQ, which never came. I'm sure there's some things I've done incorrectly every time I've swum at a meet (a back to breast turn in an IM, some breast turns, etc) and I've never ever received a DQ.

I'd just go to the meet, do your best, and have fun. Yes, do what you think you're supposed to, but don't sweat it if you screw up.

orca1946
July 17th, 2012, 07:17 PM
At some time or other - we all have had a brain fart & been DQ'ed for something. We also have had great races that live on more spoken:blah::chug: that the dq's !!

moodyrichardson
July 18th, 2012, 02:41 PM
I got DQ'd on the first Masters event I ever swam. It was for a 100 Backstroke. I was so new to swimming, I took an extra half pull before the turn. It was the best thing to ever happen to my backstroke. I have drilled those turns, so it will never happen again!

mlabresh
July 18th, 2012, 04:19 PM
I got DQ'd on the first Masters event I ever swam. It was for a 100 Backstroke. I was so new to swimming, I took an extra half pull before the turn. It was the best thing to ever happen to my backstroke. I have drilled those turns, so it will never happen again!

Me too! I got DQd in Omaha at the Summer Nationals. It was my very first meet ever and I entered 50 free, 50 br, and 100 br. I got DQd on both of my breaststroke races. I was especially bummed about the 50br because I would have had a medal for that one! But the judges said my 'right foot was not turned out enough during the swim'. I think the worst part was being told to stand at the end of the pool and wait through the following heat to hear whether or not they decided to DQ me.

I went to a meet the following weekend locally and swam the same three events plus 50 fly and a few relays. I did not DQ on any of them. This local meet was much more laid back and a LOT more fun. I did work a lot on my breaststroke kick during the week between the events, but I really don't think I was able to change it much. Sometimes, your chances of getting DQd have more to do with the meet than with your swimming, I think.

knelson
July 18th, 2012, 05:24 PM
I think the worst part was being told to stand at the end of the pool and wait through the following heat to hear whether or not they decided to DQ me.

I don't think they were "deciding whether or not to to DQ you." They wanted to explain to you what you were DQed for and in rapid-fire events like a 50 sometimes they can't do so immediately.

fatboy
July 18th, 2012, 07:26 PM
From my experiences, which are a bit limited, I've found that the meet refs don't really pay much attention to the slower heats of most events.



Not sure that is true. I got DQ'd in the first/slowest heat of a 400 IM. Decided to kick in to the wall on the first 25 of the fly and was further away than I though. Hands came apart and I got called for underwater recovery. It was a good call. Should have take another stroke. I wondered if it was enough for a DQ when I did it. Glad I didn't find out until after the swim!

mlabresh
July 18th, 2012, 08:15 PM
I don't think they were "deciding whether or not to to DQ you." They wanted to explain to you what you were DQed for and in rapid-fire events like a 50 sometimes they can't do so immediately.

Yeah, I assumed that. Until the judge I was standing with said, "Just waiting to see if it's a DQ or not."

mlabresh
July 18th, 2012, 08:16 PM
Not sure that is true. I got DQ'd in the first/slowest heat of a 400 IM. Decided to kick in to the wall on the first 25 of the fly and was further away than I though. Hands came apart and I got called for underwater recovery. It was a good call. Should have take another stroke. I wondered if it was enough for a DQ when I did it. Glad I didn't find out until after the swim!

Agreed. I was (literally) the slowest swimmer in all my events - and got DQd from two out of three.

Swimosaur
July 18th, 2012, 08:49 PM
I'd just go to the meet, do your best, and have fun. Yes, do what you think you're supposed to, but don't sweat it if you screw up.

I agree with this 110%. Of course, getting DQ'd is not a lot of fun, so of course, you want to do your homework. Once you've done it, though, you're done. Now it's time to have fun!

Many of us have stories about getting deeked for something, including some Masters World Record holders on this very forum. It's the price we sometimes pay for keeping the sport fair and honest, and hooray for that.

So if you do get DQ'd, it's not the end of the world. Learn from it, try not to repeat it, and consider it your contribution to the betterment of our sport.

knelson
July 19th, 2012, 12:34 AM
Yeah, I assumed that. Until the judge I was standing with said, "Just waiting to see if it's a DQ or not."

I'm not an official, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think the process is for the stroke judge to raise their hand to signal the DQ. The meet referee will then record the heat, lane and reason for the DQ after talking to the judge who signaled the DQ. My guess is it was the meet referee who asked you to wait and then got the confirmation from the judge who saw your illegal kick.

mlabresh
July 19th, 2012, 02:16 PM
I'm not an official, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think the process is for the stroke judge to raise their hand to signal the DQ. The meet referee will then record the heat, lane and reason for the DQ after talking to the judge who signaled the DQ. My guess is it was the meet referee who asked you to wait and then got the confirmation from the judge who saw your illegal kick.

That makes sense! Thanks for the explanation. :D

osterber
July 19th, 2012, 02:36 PM
Officially, what happens is this... (this assumes a 'fully staffed' set of officials):

* The stroke & turn official sees an infraction, and raises a hand
* The Chief Judge for that part of the pool will see the hand, will radio to the Deck Referee "Possible disqualification, lanes 1-4, turn end."
* Chief Judge will speak to the Stroke & Turn official, and have the S&T explain the exact infraction. The Chief Judge I believe has three options:
- Overrule on the spot, if there is a clear misunderstanding by the S&T of the rule
- Recommend that the Deck Ref accept the call
- Recommend that the Deck Ref not accept the call
* The Chief Judge would then radio to the Deck Ref "Possible disqualification, lane 3, turn end, non-simultaneous touch at the 75, left hand then right hand. Recommend {not} accepting this call."
* Deck Referee will radio back "Disqualification is confirmed {or rejected}." The Deck Ref may also ask a clarifying question.
* If confirmed, the Chief Judge will write up the DQ slip, have the S&T sign, then sign him/herself, and deliver to the Deck Ref to sign. If it happens quickly enough, the Chief Judge will intercept the swimmer getting out of the water to deliver the bad news.

This assumes that there is a full compliment of officials on deck, which usually only happens at big championship meets:

* Stroke & Turn officials: Positioned at the end of the lanes, and on the sides of the pool. They are the ones actually making the calls. Usually, Stroke & Turn officials do not have a heat sheet, nor do they have DQ slips, nor a radio. They are focused only on watching the swimmers.

* Chief Judge: In a fully staffed meet, usually four on deck at a time, one on each "corner" of the pool. Chief Judge has radio, DQ slips and heat sheet.

* Deck Referee: There may be a number of rotating Deck Referees. The general setup is that a Deck Referee is the referee of record for one entire event. In a big meet, the Deck Ref will rotate off at the end of the event to close out that event, resolve any swim-offs needed, any protests/appeals for DQs for that event, etc. The Deck Referee is the one who blows the whistles, and controls the pace of the meet officially.

* Starter: One or more rotating starters. The starter does not have a radio, so that he/she can focus only on starting the race. (And place-judging the finish.)

* Meet Referee: One overall referee to rule them all. In a big meet, the Meet Referee will often have no actual duties on deck, so that he/she is always available to deal with unexpected issues and situations, and to also manage the overall progress of the meet. Also, at national-level meets where other officials are being evaluated, the Meet Referee is often in a mentoring and evaluation role for other officials working towards their N1/N2/N3 certification.

Of course, in most smaller meets, you're lucky to have a referee, a starter, and a couple of stroke & turn judges, and the roles are all mixed together!

-Rick

jaadams1
July 19th, 2012, 08:17 PM
Of course, in most smaller meets, you're lucky to have a referee, a starter, and a couple of stroke & turn judges, and the roles are all mixed together!

-Rick

In addition...lucky to see radios for all that as well. Heck, I've never seen the radios thing used at bigger meets either. The DQ slips just come thru the referee back to the coaches tables minutes later.

EJB190
July 19th, 2012, 09:52 PM
Touching the bottom of the pool is allowed. However:
“Standing on the bottom during a freestyle race shall not disqualify a swimmer, but the swimmer must not leave the pool, walk or spring from the bottom. Standing on the bottom during any other stroke shall result in disqualification.”

Wow, I never knew that specifically. Let's be honest though, if you're standing in the pool you're probably not going to win haha. I'm not sure I see the logic as to why it's not acceptable for anything but free. I know pretty much anyything is legal in free, but they still doesn't let you walk. Maybe they figure inexperienced swimmers are more likely to do free and being inexperienced they might stop to catch their breath?

Also interesting is Masters rule on goggles, being that you can touch them. That 500 race I had where my googles slipped may have ended differently if my division made that rule change. I don't think the old rule is fair. If you take the time to fix your goggles, it's putting you at a disadvantage. If you're fixing you're googles, you're not swimming. It also makes you feel like you screwed the race 100% as opposed to 95%.

Again, biggest thing is Jewelry. I've seen way too many people DQ'ed. It usually girls but I've seen a lot of guys as well. It doesn't matter what it is, it's not legal and the offic will DQ you, especially if you're the away team. And there is no need to wear a watch during a meet. That's what the $10,000+ easy timing equipment is for. It will probably just slow you down anyways.

jaadams1
July 19th, 2012, 10:44 PM
Also interesting is Masters rule on goggles, being that you can touch them. That 500 race I had where my googles slipped may have ended differently if my division made that rule change. I don't think the old rule is fair. If you take the time to fix your goggles, it's putting you at a disadvantage. If you're fixing you're googles, you're not swimming. It also makes you feel like you screwed the race 100% as opposed to 95%.

You can fix your goggles in any race, USAS, FINA, or Masters. For a non-freestyle race you just have to touch the first wall, turn any way you wish to as the rule states, and while still attached to the wall with an elbow, arm, etc. fix your goggles, then resume the race.

In college I told my college coach that I WOULD stop to fix my goggles in all my distance type races, 400 IM, 500 Free, 1650 Free. She wasn't too keen on the idea, but I'd for sure swim better with the goggles on vs. not having them at all. And in a distance race, the few seconds lost on the turn would be made up easily with the use of goggles.

knelson
July 19th, 2012, 11:04 PM
You can fix your goggles in any race, USAS, FINA, or Masters.

Agreed. Not sure where Eli's getting the notion this is illegal. I'm pretty confident you can search through all the rulebooks and the only mention of goggles will be that they are an acceptable piece of equipment.

tpost2
November 4th, 2012, 06:21 AM
This is key. When the ref says, "Take your mark", get into position quickly, and DON'T MOVE. I got DQ'd once in a freestyle race for flinching. Yes, it was 1000 free, and yes, they let me swim the whole race. Don't let it happen to you!


Hey Forumites - I have a couple questions about DQs, having received my very first one in my life just recently.

The situation: block was plastic, wet, and extremely slippery and the one for my lane happened to have a 5-10% difference in downward angle, making even more hard to stay on than the other ones I used that day. I was wobbling all over, desperately trying to cling to it before the start. Swam the race. No one said anything so I thought everything was ok until I looked at the posted results and sure enough - there it was,a big fat DQ. Went to the official to ask what it was for and was told it was for the start (but for a different reason than wobbling - according to the official it looked like I got off the block faster than the others in the heat, who, BTW, were all decades older than me, regardless, I can see how it might have looked that way - there was no staying on the block). I was chastised for 'not coming to [him] sooner'.

My questions:
1) are DQs treated like traffic infractions? What I mean is that I think of this as running a stop sign because of black ice. Did I run the stop sign, i.e, did I move at the start? Heck yes. My feet were coming off the blocks with or without me just as my car went through the stop sign, regardless of how hard I pumped the brakes. So, are DQs dependent on how understanding a cop you get? Some will give you the ticket regardless of whether or not events were out of your control?
2) Would 'coming to [him] sooner' have made a difference? Assuming the officials had actually followed USMS rules, as I understand them, and actually told me I was DQ'd at the time of the finish, and had I explained things to them right then and there, would that have made a difference? Because they didn't follow the rules, is the DQ 'legal'?
3) For future reference, what options does one have when running into trouble on the block? When the starter said 'take your mark' and my feet started sliding in, do I have the option of saying 'hey, wait a minute, please, I'm falling in' or do I just have to go with it and hope no one notices the movement?

Thanks in advance for your input!

aquageek
November 4th, 2012, 07:39 AM
There is a general notion of 'bend 'em and send 'em" at USMS meets because once Masters get set it can be perilous standing them back up or holding them, especially for our older (matysekj) swimmers.

There is also some ambiguity regarding false starts and it is the referee's/chief judge's ultimate call. In the case where you were slipping and wiggled after "take your mark" you were certainly in the DQ realm. I guess the alternative would have been to fall into the water and then when the judge came over explain your case that you were slipping and hope he/she was in a forgiving mood.

I don't officiate USMS meets but do a ton of USAS meets. In our LSC we do not tell the swimmer immediately. When I travel to other states, like Georgia, they do tell the swimmer immediately. So, I'm not sure if immediate notification has any relevance to whether the DQ was done correctly.

As to whether the block situation was out of your control, that is debatable. If a lot of swimmers were slipping off then maybe I buy that story. But, if you simply were not able to control yourself, that might not be valid. All blocks are slippery at every pool in the country.

My last suggestion is that if you consistently have issues on the blocks you might want to consider starting from the deck, which is perfectly legal.

tpost2
November 4th, 2012, 03:44 PM
As to whether the block situation was out of your control, that is debatable. If a lot of swimmers were slipping off then maybe I buy that story. But, if you simply were not able to control yourself, that might not be valid. All blocks are slippery at every pool in the country.

I assume you mean this from the official's viewpoint rather than suggesting I'm lying about what happened to me. I don't have as much swimming experience as some on this forum, but I have been doing it for a while. Most starting platforms have some sort of non-slip material, especially if they're tilted. And yes, even these can get slippery because they're wet... it's at a pool after all... I've encountered and successfully navigated all-plastic wet blocks before (usually the tops are level or near-level, as were most of them at this meet) including my other starts at this meet (didn't particularly care for them, but let's face it, not all starting platforms can be like the ones at Nationals). That's why it was so surprising to find my feet sliding off the block and into the pool when going into a starting position on this particular start. Out of thousands of starts, this was new to me. All the blocks and starts were slippery that day but not with the severity or bad timing of this one. Just thought someone might have experienced something similar and/or know whether there's a protocol for how to deal with it.



There is also some ambiguity regarding false starts and it is the referee's/chief judge's ultimate call. In the case where you were slipping and wiggled after "take your mark" you were certainly in the DQ realm. I guess the alternative would have been to fall into the water and then when the judge came over explain your case that you were slipping and hope he/she was in a forgiving mood.

Totally agree with you that I was in DQ territory. There was no question about movement on the block. I felt like I was pulling a Bugs Bunny trying to stay on. Like unavoidably sliding a car on black ice through a stop sign - there's no question that it happened and that it was illegal. I deserve the ticket from that standpoint.

I suspect you're right that my only other option was to force the DQ by falling into the water and beg forgiveness at the start.

Greatly appreciate the input!

Rob Copeland
November 4th, 2012, 05:24 PM
Just thought someone might have experienced something similar and/or know whether there's a protocol for how to deal with it.I haven’t experienced this particular issue. However, if there is a dangerous situation at the meet, I suggest you bring it to the attention of the referee as soon as possible. If that means standing up before the start and saying that the block is unsafe, then please do so.

tpost2
November 4th, 2012, 06:47 PM
Thanks Rob - I tend to be the kind of person that just tries to make the best of a bad situation, but that's good advice and I'll remember that's an option :)

gdanner
November 4th, 2012, 07:36 PM
3) For future reference, what options does one have when running into trouble on the block? When the starter said 'take your mark' and my feet started sliding in, do I have the option of saying 'hey, wait a minute, please, I'm falling in' or do I just have to go with it and hope no one notices the movement?

It's up to the official to decide to stand up the heat. You could try to stand up and hope they don't send the heat, but it's really up to the official. My advice centers on checking the conditions prior to getting on the block for the race. During warmups, you should do a couple starts off the blocks so you're familiar with them. Switch to flat starts if there's a problem or dry off the blocks with a towel before your race.

orca1946
November 4th, 2012, 07:40 PM
I always hand wipe off the front edge of the block b4 I start. This will do 2 things - get most of the water off & tell you how slippery the front & top are.

tpost2
November 5th, 2012, 08:08 AM
thanks gdanner and orca - appreciate the input!