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lefty
July 29th, 2012, 12:13 PM
Lets get it out there. Who thought, "Impossible."

I do.


********* SOME DUMBY PUT A SPOILER ON PAGE TWO FOR TONIGHTS WOMENS 100 BACKSTROKE SO DON'T READ THIS THREAD ***

selkie
July 29th, 2012, 12:33 PM
Given the people her country hires as coaches, and how supposedly banned for life coaches have been seen on their pool decks at national meets, IMO, it's a fair question.

Chris Stevenson
July 29th, 2012, 04:54 PM
She's 16. I'm gonna need more before deciding it was a dirty swim.

So I wonder: would we be having this conversation if the roles were reversed and Beisel had won gold? If Katie Ledecky shaves 1 sec off the WR in the 800, will accusations follow?

I'm not saying don't look for evidence of foul play, but I'm giving her the benefit until there is something concrete.

Fins25
July 29th, 2012, 06:03 PM
She's 16. I'm gonna need more before deciding it was a dirty swim.

So I wonder: would we be having this conversation if the roles were reversed and Beisel had won gold? If Katie Ledecky shaves 1 sec off the WR in the 800, will accusations follow?

I'm not saying don't look for evidence of foul play, but I'm giving her the benefit until there is something concrete.

Well said. Innocent until proven guilty. then if guilty go for your life

__steve__
July 29th, 2012, 09:36 PM
I believe her record is 100% legitimate.

orca1946
July 29th, 2012, 10:52 PM
Let's see if she can back it up with anything else!:worms:

Fresnoid
July 30th, 2012, 02:12 AM
Let's see if she can back it up with anything else!:worms:

If she is adequately juiced, the 200 IM should be a slam dunk

knelson
July 30th, 2012, 02:30 AM
So I wonder: would we be having this conversation if the roles were reversed and Beisel had won gold? If Katie Ledecky shaves 1 sec off the WR in the 800, will accusations follow?

No, but the US team doesn't have the rich doping tradition the Chinese do! It's unfortunate for her if she's clean, but people aren't going to forget about past Chinese transgressions so easily.

GGS5T
July 30th, 2012, 07:01 AM
Are we having this conversation only because her last 50m freestyle was faster than Ryan Lochte, the man who had to swim fast enough to beat Michal Phelps?

Had she done a slower last 50m nobody would doubt her.

Jazz Hands
July 30th, 2012, 08:39 AM
What drug, exactly, makes somebody go :59 on the end of a 400 IM LCM?

jaadams1
July 30th, 2012, 08:45 AM
What drug, exactly, makes somebody go :59 on the end of a 400 IM LCM?

Whatever it is, I want some of it too!! Even for SCY :applaud:

Bobinator
July 30th, 2012, 08:55 AM
What drug, exactly, makes somebody go :59 on the end of a 400 IM LCM?

Perhaps working hard in training spiced up with a bit of talent. :angel:

aquageek
July 30th, 2012, 10:24 AM
I think it is at least naive to think this is just "awesome swimming." Maybe it is overly skeptical to think it is doping. Looking at these Chinese swimmers their form is marginal, their walls terrible, and starts worse. I just counted one Chinese girl in the 200 triple breathe all through her 200 free prelim, same with Yang. There have been other Olympics where the Chinese have gone wild in the pool. If it looks too good to be true, maybe it is.

__steve__
July 30th, 2012, 10:52 AM
In this case I would rather be wrong defending than accusing, but then I have only been in this sport for several years and still naive in assuming.

I feel she just has the best genes for the event (i.e skin properties, weight distribution, proportions, strength, etc), as well as having a good swim.

Chance is on their side for a palpable reason.

aquageek
July 30th, 2012, 11:10 AM
In this case I would rather be wrong defending than accusing, but then I have only been in this sport for several years and still naive in assuming.

I feel she just has the best genes for the event (i.e skin properties, weight distribution, proportions, strength, etc), as well as having a good swim.

Chance is on their side for a palpable reason.

Skin properties? Even Jazz wouldn't use that.

selkie
July 30th, 2012, 11:26 AM
They're still getting reported doping positives there- another 16 year old girl that probably would have been on their Olympic team got busted for EPO a while back. Though they're nowhere near Brazil these days when it comes to positives that we know about. (And Brazil's positives have come from so many different drugs that it seems unlikely that their national organization is organized enough to be behind the slew of +es.)

I think Peng Wu and Sun are clean; but given the back story and performance, I don't think it's unfair to speculate. when something doesn't fit usual patterns.

Remember Michelle Smith.

lefty
July 30th, 2012, 11:51 AM
Good points made all around. I would put myself as skeptical but not going to out and out assume cheating.

Why wasn't she in the 400 free? I've got to think she will be around 1:53 in the 200 if she is on the relay.

To the question of if she had been American, would we still question it? Yes. Van Dyken, Lewis, Armstrong, Flo Jo etc... Yeah, we have a history too.

Water Rat
July 30th, 2012, 11:51 AM
Are the competitors asked to submit for testing just before the meet starts?

lefty
July 30th, 2012, 11:58 AM
Are the competitors asked to submit for testing just before the meet starts?

Before, after and during

arthur
July 30th, 2012, 12:23 PM
Before, after and during
And they keep blood samples for around 8 years for future testing.

ourswimmer
July 30th, 2012, 12:41 PM
Why wasn't she in the 400 free?

This is the question I was asking myself too. Regardless of why her freestyle was so fast, her other splits in her 400IM were similar to her nearest competitors (and so, compared to her freestyle, terrible). If she can bring her 400IM home in under 1:00 why couldn't she do three more 100 frees just like it beforehand and go 3:56?

That Guy
July 30th, 2012, 01:08 PM
Why wasn't she in the 400 free?

That's an excellent question. China's odd Olympic roster was a topic of discussion prior to the Games.

http://swimswam.com/2012/07/china-reveals-olympic-roster-strange-entries-abound/

smontanaro
July 30th, 2012, 01:14 PM
That's an excellent question. China's odd Olympic roster was a topic of discussion prior to the Games.

http://swimswam.com/2012/07/china-reveals-olympic-roster-strange-entries-abound/

Weird. This 16yo phenom is only swimming the two IMs? And the men have no 10k open water swimmer?

quicksilver
July 30th, 2012, 01:16 PM
Never thought of this conspiracy theory. Maybe a 3:50-ish for the 400 would have raised suspicion?

Either she just went for it or the thought of losing just wasn't an option. Does anyone know her past results?

Rob Copeland
July 30th, 2012, 01:28 PM
Are the competitors asked to submit for testing just before the meet starts?According to FINA reports Ye Shiwen has been tested 5 times. Starting December 2010, with the most recently listed as this February. There are most likely more recent tests taken.

FINA does not report on the results of tests.

The Chinese federation may conduct additional testing on its own.

The Fortress
July 30th, 2012, 01:35 PM
I think it is at least naive to think this is just "awesome swimming." Maybe it is overly skeptical to think it is doping. Looking at these Chinese swimmers their form is marginal, their walls terrible, and starts worse. I just counted one Chinese girl in the 200 triple breathe all through her 200 free prelim, same with Yang. There have been other Olympics where the Chinese have gone wild in the pool. If it looks too good to be true, maybe it is.

+1

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/9639

Chris Stevenson
July 30th, 2012, 02:09 PM
Loved Beisel's interview

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/swimming/elizabeth-beisel-instant-fame-off-silver-medal.html

2fish&1whale
July 30th, 2012, 02:10 PM
I'm german and have loved swimming since my youth-but the east german doping scandals of the early 80's affected me as a spectator.Now I usually am suspicious first when I see out of nowhere athletes perform unheard of feats-kinda takes the joy out of watching the sport sometimes.
Which makes me wonder about the Lithuanian breast stroke swimmer---is a 15 yr old seriusly going to whoop Soni and co.'s butt?

TRYM_Swimmer
July 30th, 2012, 02:25 PM
+1

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/9639

+2

TRYM_Swimmer
July 30th, 2012, 02:27 PM
I'm german and have loved swimming since my youth-but the east german doping scandals of the early 80's affected me as a spectator.Now I usually am suspicious first when I see out of nowhere athletes perform unheard of feats-kinda takes the joy out of watching the sport sometimes.
Which makes me wonder about the Lithuanian breast stroke swimmer---is a 15 yr old seriusly going to whoop Soni and co.'s butt?

She trains in the UK. What has she done before?

Allen Stark
July 30th, 2012, 02:27 PM
What drug, exactly, makes somebody go :59 on the end of a 400 IM LCM?
Nothing"makes" you,but HGH and EPO or blood doping would sure help.

vndad
July 30th, 2012, 02:38 PM
It seems at least two former prominent Australian swimmers believe in Ye incredible feat:

Susie O'Neill and Grant Hackett both had cause during their careers to suspect that they had been robbed of major medals by drug cheats, but both cautioned against making any accusations against Ye.

Twice O'Neill was relegated to the bronze behind two Chinese swimmers in the 100m and 200m butterfly at the notorious 1994 Rome world championships - just weeks before a swag of Chinese swimmers tested positive at the Asian Games - but she is adamant Ye's world record deserves to be taken at face value.

"I thought it was awesome," O'Neill told The Australian. "I was a bit shocked when I saw her. She looks nothing like the people I encountered when I was swimming, with their huge physiques. Ye is quite small.
"I just don't think China would do that again. Maybe I'm too trusting, but I've seen the Chinese ... train and they have an amazing work ethic. I think they're clean."

Hackett admitted he blinked when he realised what Ye was splitting as he helped to call the race for the Nine Network. "As I said in my call, that's a male split that 58 point for the last 100m," he said. "What she did was incredible and mindblowing and I'm still sitting here flabbergasted. But I think back to some of the utterly amazing things Thorpie did, or Aaron Peirsol, and I think how unfair it was that some people cast doubts over them.

"I think the current Chinese swimmers have inherited the legacy of those years when China cheated. I know this girl went to the Gold Coast to train under Denis (Cotterell, Hackett's former coach) and he has told me how dedicated they are. It is not as though they are doing sensational times on half the training."http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/london-games/what-16-year-old-girl-ye-shiwen-did-simply-doesnt-happen/story-fne3a96w-1226438936146

knelson
July 30th, 2012, 02:43 PM
Which makes me wonder about the Lithuanian breast stroke swimmer---is a 15 yr old seriusly going to whoop Soni and co.'s butt?

Yeah, but young breaststroke phenoms have been common at past Olympics. Anita Nall won a silver and a bronze in '92 at 14, Amanda Beard won two silvers in '96 at age 14, Megan Quann won a gold in 2000 at age 16.

GGS5T
July 30th, 2012, 04:46 PM
If she is adequately juiced, the 200 IM should be a slam dunk


What drug, exactly, makes somebody go :59 on the end of a 400 IM LCM?

Probably the same drug that helped Missy Franklin win the backstroke gold just 14 minutes after swimming the 200 free to qualify for the final!

I wonder if the Chinese are suspicious of this tremendous feat?

quicksilver
July 30th, 2012, 04:50 PM
Probably the same drug that helped Missy Franklin win the backstroke gold just 14 minutes after swimming the 200 free to qualify for the final!

I wonder if the Chinese are suspicious of this tremendous feat?

Touche. :)

At the end of the day teenagers are capable of almost anything.

Rob Copeland
July 30th, 2012, 04:57 PM
Touche. :)

At the end of the day teenagers are capable of almost anything.Except cleaning their room.

There have been some phenomenal swims; I just hope the swims are all clean.

lefty
July 30th, 2012, 05:22 PM
********* SOME DUMBY PUT A SPOILER ON PAGE TWO FOR TONIGHTS WOMENS 100 BACKSTROKE SO DON'T READ THIS THREAD ***


Dispite your likely intellectual sounding accent, You are the dumby I am referring to Graham. :)



Probably the same drug that helped......

Lui
July 30th, 2012, 05:23 PM
I'm german and have loved swimming since my youth-but the east german doping scandals of the early 80's affected me as a spectator.Now I usually am suspicious first when I see out of nowhere athletes perform unheard of feats-kinda takes the joy out of watching the sport sometimes.
Which makes me wonder about the Lithuanian breast stroke swimmer---is a 15 yr old seriusly going to whoop Soni and co.'s butt?

Yeah but being part German myself, I remember when Phelps won 8 Gold medals 4 years ago. In a German triathlon forum no one acknowledged his achievements. Instead they all accused him of doping which the German media does all the time, except when Biedermann or Steffen win. Then it's oddly all fair play(not to mention when Franzi van Almsick won silver at age 14 and broke the 200m freestyle world record and won Gold at the age of 16).

I prefer giving these athletes the benefit of the doubt.

selkie
July 30th, 2012, 06:09 PM
Yeah, but young breaststroke phenoms have been common at past Olympics. Anita Nall won a silver and a bronze in '92 at 14, Amanda Beard won two silvers in '96 at age 14, Megan Quann won a gold in 2000 at age 16.

I remember a long discussion in rec.sport.swimming in the late 90s about how the women's breaststrokes had effectively become a race for girls. There seems to be a 12-18 month window between the final puberty growth spurt and when the girls Get Hips where there's a lot of fast swimming and then a struggle to get back to those times again about the time they're old enough to get a US driver's license. Some like Amanda Beard eventually get their new bodies figured out; others quietly fade away from the sport.

The Fortress
July 30th, 2012, 06:24 PM
Probably the same drug that helped Missy Franklin win the backstroke gold just 14 minutes after swimming the 200 free to qualify for the final!

I wonder if the Chinese are suspicious of this tremendous feat?

With their grueling training, Olympic athletes can swim numerous/back to back events. I don't find this suspicious. They recover quickly.

I find it much more suspicious to not be even a clear medal favorite, smash your PR, smash the tech suit WR and come back in the last 100 in 58+. Also quite odd that she is not in the 400 free or other freestyle events.

No one cares about German triathlon forums.

havepoolwillswim
July 30th, 2012, 06:47 PM
Loved Beisel's interview

http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/swimming/elizabeth-beisel-instant-fame-off-silver-medal.html

Great interview- her personality is GOLD :)

havepoolwillswim
July 30th, 2012, 06:50 PM
I don’t think in the history of Olympic or international competition has the winning female swimmer ever swum faster than the winning male swimmer in the last 50 in a comparative race.

havepoolwillswim
July 30th, 2012, 06:58 PM
Her times from 2011
55.4 100 fr
2:08.9 200 IM
4:33.6 400 IM

philoswimmer
July 30th, 2012, 07:04 PM
I don’t think in the history of Olympic or international competition has the winning female swimmer ever swum faster than the winning male swimmer in the last 50 in a comparative race.

That alone is not enough to suspect her. Records are broken all the time.

One thing missing from this thread (I think, unless I missed it) is the unusual way she swam the IM, particularly her back-breast turn and her lack of a breaststroke pulldown. One hypothesis is that she saved more for the 100 free than others. In other words, perhaps she simply swam smarter.

Allen Stark
July 30th, 2012, 07:16 PM
I don’t think in the history of Olympic or international competition has the winning female swimmer ever swum faster than the winning male swimmer in the last 50 in a comparative race.
Not a fair comparison.Lochte put it all into the first 3 legs and was dying at the end.

aquageek
July 30th, 2012, 07:21 PM
In other words, perhaps she simply swam smarter.

Yeah, she discovered the unknown secret of the newfangled IM event that no one else in the history of swimming has thought of.

How likely is it that her 16 year old teammate was on a doping routine this Spring by herself on a team that is state run and has a sordid history? Wasn't it in Beijing the Chinese falsified birth records for 11 year old gymnasts so they could compete? Don't forget the 1990s Chinese swim team. She's also too young and has very little international experience, if any, to have that biological passport that busted those athletes last week, convenient. I wear a tin foil hat also, btw.

I have no problem with believing a woman can beat a man but, c'mon, swimming faster than Lochte because, according to the Chinese media, she had big hands at age 5 and was referred to a swim coach?

philoswimmer
July 30th, 2012, 07:24 PM
Yeah, she discovered the unknown secret of the newfangled IM event that no one else in the history of swimming has thought of.


No, that's not what I am suggesting. What I am suggesting -- and this is just a hypothesis -- that she and her coaches were able to figure out the right strategy for her, given her strengths and weaknesses, and given the strengths and weaknesses of the field she was facing. That strategy might fail miserably for others and in other circumstances.

tjrpatt
July 30th, 2012, 07:30 PM
Exhibit A-Barcelona 1992

As an avid 400 IMer, it just seems that even a 16 year old doesn't have that much energy at the end of the 400 IM. The rest of the field seems to be hanging on for dear life. Of course, the testing doesn't keep up with the latest doping methods. If she is clean as a whistle, I need to know how she has road runner speed at the end of a freaking 400 IM.

__steve__
July 30th, 2012, 07:53 PM
Is blood doping detectable?

havepoolwillswim
July 30th, 2012, 08:02 PM
100/last 50
Shiwen Ye 58.6/28.9

Lochte 58.6/29.1
Pereira 59.7/29.3
Hagino 58.2/28.5
Phelps 58.3/28.4
Le Clos 59.1/29.2
Horihata 57.5/27.8
Fraser-Holmes 58.1/28.3
Marin 1:00.1/29.2

average 58.7/28.7


Beisel 1:02.3/30.8
Li 1:01.5/29.7
Hosszu 1:02.6/30.9
Miley 1:02.9/30.7
Rise 1:03.9/31.3
Leverenz 1:04.4/31.7
Belmonte 1:02.9/31.0

average 1:02.9/30.8 (excludes Ye)

__steve__
July 30th, 2012, 09:12 PM
Just watched the race. Noticed she was the only swimmer that breathed every stroke in the fly, she also had less undulation then the others and used a mild kick. Was behind and out of view for the back, but from viewing above it looked like she was barely kicking there too. The free, well, I wish I could do a 50 with her finishing split.

arthur
July 30th, 2012, 09:21 PM
Just watched the race. Noticed she was the only swimmer that breathed every stroke in the fly, she also had less undulation then the others and used a mild kick. Was behind and out of view for the back, but from viewing above it looked like she was barely kicking there too. The free, well, I wish I could do a 50 with her finishing split.
Ye Shiwen and Sun Yang both seem to really focus on getting a ton of air and saving as much of their anaerobic energy stores for the end of the race. It seems to be working amazingly well for them!

oldwahoo
July 30th, 2012, 11:51 PM
She went a 4:33 in the 400 IM in 2011, and was #2 in the world rankings for that event in 2011, so its hard to say she was not a medal favorite - and she was the top 200 IM swimmer in 2011, so perhaps its just that Chinese swimmers don't get the US media exposure that swimmers like Hozzu who swam the US college circuit did; She was also a 1:58.2 200 meter 200 free swimmer in 2011, #31 in the world. At age 16, she's at a stage of life where growth and improvement is to be expected.

Missy Franklin dropped from 1:59 to 1:55 in 200 free, and 2:08 to 2:50 200 back from 2010 to 2011 when she aged from 15 to 16, so similar drops at that age are not unusual.

And similar suprise last 50 free splits from strong fdreestyle swimmers do happen form time to time - at this year's ACC men's championships, the winner split 24.36 (one of the fastest alltime last 50s of this event) to overtake the leader after 150 who came home in 27.5. Ye Shiwen's last 100, while fast, was only about a second faster than Stephanie Rice's last 100 when she set her world record.

I bet the Chinese put her on their 800 free relay though, if she went 1:58.2 last year, you have to think she has a 1:56+ in her now (or better).


With their grueling training, Olympic athletes can swim numerous/back to back events. I don't find this suspicious. They recover quickly.

I find it much more suspicious to not be even a clear medal favorite, smash your PR, smash the tech suit WR and come back in the last 100 in 58+. Also quite odd that she is not in the 400 free or other freestyle events.

No one cares about German triathlon forums.

geochuck
July 31st, 2012, 08:11 AM
I just watched the video she has the best swimming technique I have ever seen. Test and test but her technique is far better any one else including what I saw from any of the men.

geochuck
July 31st, 2012, 08:15 AM
It is surprising how good you feel after coming first and how tired you feel when you lose. I was at a kids meet this weekend and saw a young lady crying. I asked her what was wrong she said she bettered her best time by 2 seconds but could not catch the winner.


Exhibit A-Barcelona 1992

As an avid 400 IMer, it just seems that even a 16 year old doesn't have that much energy at the end of the 400 IM. The rest of the field seems to be hanging on for dear life. Of course, the testing doesn't keep up with the latest doping methods. If she is clean as a whistle, I need to know how she has road runner speed at the end of a freaking 400 IM.

aquageek
July 31st, 2012, 08:56 AM
Ye Shiwen and Sun Yang both seem to really focus on getting a ton of air and saving as much of their anaerobic energy stores for the end of the race. It seems to be working amazingly well for them!

Getting a ton of air as some secret for success? If that was the case, every 10/under would be setting records daily. There is nothing you read about these swimmers that indicates some ground breaking training or unique abilities. The latest I read was that she will do 10K meters a day if her coach wants her to. Big whoop, that's been par for the course for 40+ years. Big hands, breathing more, crappy walls, where's the uniqueness?

Then again, if I have to listen to one more story about Lochte and his tractor tires, I'm going to officially sever all ties to NBC. Speaking of NBC when are they going to realize their broadcast model is no longer working? Thank goodness for the DVR.

aquageek
July 31st, 2012, 09:02 AM
Probably the same drug that helped Missy Franklin win the backstroke gold just 14 minutes after swimming the 200 free to qualify for the final!

FYI - Every age grouper in America does this at about every meet, especially prelims/finals meets. It is nothing new to Franklin or any swimmer.

tjrpatt
July 31st, 2012, 09:18 AM
FYI - Every age grouper in America does this at about every meet, especially prelims/finals meets. It is nothing new to Franklin or any swimmer.


In addition, Franklin would do a crapload of events at Grand Prix Meets with the same amount of rest periods. I remember her doing the Indy Grand Prix last year and she swam three finals in one night. So, I guess that her coach trained her for this kind of schedule.

quicksilver
July 31st, 2012, 09:39 AM
interesting commentary...


Day 4 Olympic Swimming Prelims – U.S. Continues to Roll; Chinese Drug Issue? BY Steve Beideck (http://sports.omaha.com/author/sbeideck/) | 6:29 am, Tuesday, Jul. 31 | POSTED IN Sports Blog (http://sports.omaha.com/category/sports/)

Red flags are being waved about the gold medal swim of China’s Ye Shiwen in the 400 individual medley. She denies taking performance-enhancing drugs, but according to the BBC, U.S. coach John Leonard classified the 16-year-old’s finals swim as “disturbing.”


The most “disturbing” part – her final 50 meter split was faster than the winner of the men’s 400 IM. Stay tuned, because if Ye is stripped of her title, Elizabeth Beisel of the U.S. would move up to the gold medal.

Tonight’s finals are in the women’s 200 free with Allison Schmitt and Missy Franklin (that quick double last night by Franklin already has earned her icon status), Michael Phelps searching for his first London gold medal in his signature event – the 200 butterfly, and the women’s 200 IM weith Ye and two U.S. swimmers – Caitlin Leverenz and Ariana Kukors – who are sitting 3-4 after the semifinals.

Lui
July 31st, 2012, 10:12 AM
Can doping actually make THAT much difference? I mean if it's completely unbelievable and out of the question that she swam the last 50 faster than Lochte, how believable is it on drugs?

gdanner
July 31st, 2012, 10:33 AM
Can doping actually make THAT much difference? I mean if it's completely unbelievable and out of the question that she swam the last 50 faster than Lochte, how believable is it on drugs?

Enough of a difference that just about every major player in the cycling world doped in the 90's.



ESAs have a history of use as blood doping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping) agents in endurance sports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport) ...

The overall oxygen delivery system (blood oxygen levels, as well as heart stroke volume, vascularization, and lung function) is one of the major limiting factors to muscle's ability to perform endurance exercise.

Therefore, the primary reason athletes may use ESAs is to improve oxygen delivery to muscles, which directly improves their endurance capacity.

Though EPO was believed to be widely used in the 1990s in certain sports, there was no way at the time to directly test for it, until in 2000...

In 2002, at the Winter Olympic Games in Salt Lake City, Don Catlin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Catlin), MD, the founder and then-director of the UCLA Olympic Analytical Lab, reported finding darbepoetin alfa, a form of erythropoietin, in a test sample for the first time in sports.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erythropoietin#cite_note-urlCatlin_has_made_a_career_out_of_busting_juicers _-_USATODAY.com-15)
The testing is always going to play catch-up.

I don't know how long they actually keep samples for, but if the swimmer retires shortly after the games, it's far less likely that s/he will ever get caught.

geochuck
July 31st, 2012, 10:37 AM
Doping does help if they were to get away with it. No US swimmers, track and field or cyclists have ever used doping to do well. (tongue in cheek). They can tell if they are loading up on blood. I am sure they are not using rectal air injection like the east germans did in the past.


Can doping actually make THAT much difference? I mean if it's completely unbelievable and out of the question that she swam the last 50 faster than Lochte, how believable is it on drugs?

vndad
July 31st, 2012, 10:43 AM
She's also too young and has very little international experience, if any, to have that biological passport that busted those athletes last week, convenient. I wear a tin foil hat also, btw.

If Ye Shiwen is too young and has very little international experience, so is/does Missy Franklin. Ye had competed at the same world-level meets (2010 World SC and 2011 World LC) as Franklin prior to this Olympics, in addition to the 2010 Asian Games at age 14.


I have no problem with believing a woman can beat a man but, c'mon, swimming faster than Lochte because, according to the Chinese media, she had big hands at age 5 and was referred to a swim coach?

How much different is this from US media attributing Franklin's unusually large feet (size 13 uh?) to her swimming prowess?

mctrusty
July 31st, 2012, 10:47 AM
How much different is this from US media attributing Franklin's unusually large feet (size 13 uh?) to her swimming prowess?

Or Phelps's breathing every stroke in the 200 fly explaining his closing speed.

vndad
July 31st, 2012, 10:58 AM
Or Phelps's breathing every stroke in the 200 fly explaining his closing speed.

Or Sun Yang breathing two consecutive strokes into the wall AND three consecutive strokes out of the wall. I guess there are indeed different "strokes" for different folks.

aquageek
July 31st, 2012, 11:01 AM
Can doping actually make THAT much difference? I mean if it's completely unbelievable and out of the question that she swam the last 50 faster than Lochte, how believable is it on drugs?

Is that a serious question? I dunno, ask Ben Johnson and Michelle Smith for further info.

Lui
July 31st, 2012, 11:19 AM
Is that a serious question? I dunno, ask Ben Johnson and Michelle Smith for further info.

The question wasn't if doping makes a difference? The question was if it makes such an enormous difference that it would make her being faster than Lochte totally believable or if it is still hard to believe even if she was all doped up.


Btw, I'll ask Lance when I see him:D

Fresnoid
July 31st, 2012, 11:33 AM
I am sure they are not using rectal air injection like the east germans did in the past.

They experimented with that, but it never worked. There were issues with, um, sudden loss of buoyancy.

ourswimmer
July 31st, 2012, 12:05 PM
One hypothesis is that she saved more for the 100 free than others.

I think this explanation of why she swam the 400IM rather than the 400FR is the best one offered here: She could swim the first three strokes fast enough at loafing pace to keep up with the field. Then on the last 100 they were just hanging on while she still had plenty of energy. Maybe she would have needed to work harder to stay with the field in the 400FR, and would not have been able to hold the pace.

But this explanation just shifts the focus of my awe away from the last 100 and to the first 300. She could keep pace with that field even without putting out max effort! I can't say what accounts for her speed, but it sure is amazing.

Frank Thompson
July 31st, 2012, 12:55 PM
Not a fair comparison.Lochte put it all into the first 3 legs and was dying at the end.

I agree with this statement and Lochte's split was not that good in comparison to the other 3 legs of the race. Here are two point to prove this.

His first 300 meters was the best in swimming history. He was 3:06.5 at the 300 mark and was .55 seconds ahead of the WR by Phelps and his split at the 300 mark was 3:07.15 and if he would have swam his 2008 race he would have ran down Lochte on the final 50. I remember seeing the line go away from Lochte on the last 50.

I am not trying to downgrade the swim because I don't know what his strategy was but I know that it was by far the fastest he ever has swam for the first 300 and maybe he wanted to get so far ahead that he would demoralize the field. He might have been shutting down or just plain died but still won by the largest margin and it was all in that first 300.

Phelps split a :56.79 and I believe that is the fastest split ever compared to the 58.6 split by Lochte. Now this is where it gets interesting. Tamas Darnyi swam a 57.60 24 years ago at the 1992 Olympics for his last 100 split and he was 3:16.63 at the 300 mark and swam a time of 4:14.23 and that time is 9 seconds slower than what Lochte did.

Another example is Tom Dolan at the 1994 World Championships. He swam a 57.66 for his last 100 split and he was 3:14.86 at the 300 mark and swam at time of 4:12.30 and that is 7 seconds slower than what Lochte did.

I remembered Darnyi's swim because he would have out split half of the field in the 400 Free and this was talked about a lot back 20 years ago so this is not that unusual.

Lochte is by far the best 300 IM mark swimmer of all time and this includes tech suits. However, he did not get the WR because of that last 100.

In 1984, Alex Baumann swam a 58.28 on his last 100 of the 400 IM at the 1984 Olympics in a WR time of 4:17.53 and that is still faster than what Lochte did and that was 28 years ago.

The point in this is you can't compare splits because everyone swims this event differently. Because I was interested in this I found that almost half of the 100 free splits in the 400 IM at past World Championships and Olympic Games were faster than 58.6

mattson
July 31st, 2012, 01:22 PM
Because I was interested in this I found that almost half of the 100 free splits in the 400 IM at past World Championships and Olympic Games were faster than 58.6

Are you talking about the men only, or including the women?

As you have pointed out, it may be that her first 300 was spectacular enough that she had energy to spare for the last 100. In which case, there would likely be a few examples of other women who had a similar races with a sub-minute last 100 (but were not as fast the first three legs).

havepoolwillswim
August 1st, 2012, 05:19 PM
I agree with this statement and Lochte's split was not that good in comparison to the other 3 legs of the race. Here are two point to prove this.

His first 300 meters was the best in swimming history. He was 3:06.5 at the 300 mark and was .55 seconds ahead of the WR by Phelps and his split at the 300 mark was 3:07.15 and if he would have swam his 2008 race he would have ran down Lochte on the final 50. I remember seeing the line go away from Lochte on the last 50.

I am not trying to downgrade the swim because I don't know what his strategy was but I know that it was by far the fastest he ever has swam for the first 300 and maybe he wanted to get so far ahead that he would demoralize the field. He might have been shutting down or just plain died but still won by the largest margin and it was all in that first 300.

Phelps split a :56.79 and I believe that is the fastest split ever compared to the 58.6 split by Lochte. Now this is where it gets interesting. Tamas Darnyi swam a 57.60 24 years ago at the 1992 Olympics for his last 100 split and he was 3:16.63 at the 300 mark and swam a time of 4:14.23 and that time is 9 seconds slower than what Lochte did.

Another example is Tom Dolan at the 1994 World Championships. He swam a 57.66 for his last 100 split and he was 3:14.86 at the 300 mark and swam at time of 4:12.30 and that is 7 seconds slower than what Lochte did.

I remembered Darnyi's swim because he would have out split half of the field in the 400 Free and this was talked about a lot back 20 years ago so this is not that unusual.

Lochte is by far the best 300 IM mark swimmer of all time and this includes tech suits. However, he did not get the WR because of that last 100.

In 1984, Alex Baumann swam a 58.28 on his last 100 of the 400 IM at the 1984 Olympics in a WR time of 4:17.53 and that is still faster than what Lochte did and that was 28 years ago.

The point in this is you can't compare splits because everyone swims this event differently. Because I was interested in this I found that almost half of the 100 free splits in the 400 IM at past World Championships and Olympic Games were faster than 58.6


Interesting- I didn't know this. Thanks for putting this analysis together.

Chris Stevenson
August 1st, 2012, 07:19 PM
From what I can tell, other links about the 400 IM seem to posit doping, so I'll post this one (http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/fivering_circus/2012/08/ye_shiwen_doping_the_unfair_smear_campaign_against _the_chinese_swimming_sensation_.html).

havepoolwillswim
August 1st, 2012, 07:50 PM
Her splits from Shanghai:
30.12
33.77

35.45
34.71

39.38
40.02

31.82
29.88


Her splits from London:
28.85
33.34

35.34
34.20

38.80
39.22

29.75
28.93

That Guy
August 1st, 2012, 07:54 PM
she's dropping time like an age grouper!

oh wait

havepoolwillswim
August 1st, 2012, 07:55 PM
she's dropping time like an age grouper!

oh wait

:)

lucyj
August 1st, 2012, 08:08 PM
With their grueling training, Olympic athletes can swim numerous/back to back events. I don't find this suspicious. They recover quickly.

I find it much more suspicious to not be even a clear medal favorite, smash your PR, smash the tech suit WR and come back in the last 100 in 58+. Also quite odd that she is not in the 400 free or other freestyle events.

:shakeshead:I posted the following last night under "NEWS" at http://www.iswimcoach.net...

Ye Shiwen for real???
Yesterday [July 30] and today [July 31], Ross Tucker, Ph.D., The Science of Sport (Republic of South Africa), http://www.sportsscientists.com/, published two articles which included lengthy comments regarding the questions about Ye Shiwen's performance in the Women's 400 IM. In the article yesterday, he discusses, among other things, the physiology of being able to finish that race faster than Ryan Lochte over the last 50. In today's article, he expands on his thoughts from yesterday, and also quotes comments from John Leonard, Executive Director of the American Swim Coaches Association.

Tucker (and many others) have questioned Ye Shiwen's ability to swim a 58.68 last 100 free in the 400 IM, and state that it certainly raises suspicions. She shouldn't automatically be considered guilty, but her performance should certainly be examined. How can someone who was about 23 seconds slower than Ryan Lochte over the first 300 meters of the 400 IM then swim just .03 slower for just the last 100?

Here are the links to the two blog entries from Tucker. What are your thoughts?

July 30: http://www.sportsscientists.com/search?updated-max=2012-07-30T17:17:00%2B02:00&max-results=2

July 31: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/london-2012-day-3-thoughts.html

__steve__
August 1st, 2012, 08:37 PM
Is there a possibility of an adulterated suit advantage?

Fresnoid
August 1st, 2012, 08:48 PM
Is there a possibility of an adulterated suit advantage?

I think the suits are bar coded and inspected in the ready room

geochuck
August 1st, 2012, 08:52 PM
I am wondering I saw one swimmer with three bathing caps is it possible they were using these to help their bouyancy. The one cap looked to me as a neoprene cap that I used for training in cold water.

Maui Mike
August 1st, 2012, 10:07 PM
Records are broken all the time, and as time passes "phenom" performances become the norm. How long will this 400 IM record last? I'll bet it doesn't hold up as long as those of Janet Evans and Mary Meagher.

orca1946
August 2nd, 2012, 12:51 AM
Better masking agents ??

__steve__
August 2nd, 2012, 07:17 AM
I'm closing it as clean because we will never know

geochuck
August 2nd, 2012, 07:43 AM
I Like what I saw, great stroke, great finish. Leave the girl alone doubting Thomases.

Lui
August 2nd, 2012, 08:27 AM
I Like what I saw, great stroke, great finish. Leave the girl alone doubting Thomases.
+1

knelson
August 2nd, 2012, 10:53 AM
The one cap looked to me as a neoprene cap that I used for training in cold water.

It's not neoprene, George. These are the new caps--sorry "hair management systems"--Speedo is promoting as part of their Fastskin 3 "System."
http://www.speedousa.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12413586&kwCatId=&kw=fastskin3&origkw=fastskin3&sr=1&camp=PPC%3AGoogle&gclid=CJT0k-2YybECFSUbQgod9TUAKA

geochuck
August 2nd, 2012, 11:04 AM
2 or 3 caps must hold extra air. The hair management feature???

nhc
August 2nd, 2012, 03:22 PM
Maybe it's a new strategy the Chinese team is adopting, to conserve energy for the last 50m? The same thing happened in the women's 200m fly (http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/swimming/highlights-jiao-liuyang-sets-olympic-record-in-200m-fly.html) when Jiao Liuyang dramatically overtook Garcia in the last 50m.

taruky
August 2nd, 2012, 03:53 PM
I Like what I saw, great stroke, great finish. Leave the girl alone doubting Thomases.

+2

There have been other swimmers with precipitous drops in time, and older than 16 at that. If people want to accuse Ye, might as well accuse Dana Torres.

knelson
August 2nd, 2012, 03:56 PM
If people want to accuse Ye, might as well accuse Dana Torres.

It's Dara, and she's probably the most accused swimmer in the history of the sport.

Chris Stevenson
August 2nd, 2012, 03:58 PM
If people want to accuse Ye, might as well accuse Dana Torres.

Yeah, like THAT would ever happen. :)

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