PDA

View Full Version : Stroke count?



sok454
January 31st, 2013, 11:50 AM
What is the average stroke count for a 25 yd free swim? Assuming no block start? I'm trying to count mine and was wondering where I should be aiming for.

smontanaro
January 31st, 2013, 11:56 AM
What is the average stroke count for a 25 yd free swim? Assuming no block start? I'm trying to count mine and was wondering where I should be aiming for.

I'm in the 12-14 range, depending on how "together" my stroke is (not all that much lately). I suspect the elite swimmers here will be in the 9-10 range.

S

sok454
January 31st, 2013, 12:01 PM
Well i've got some work to do then since I was at 18 last night.

swimmieAvsFan
January 31st, 2013, 12:09 PM
What is the average stroke count for a 25 yd free swim? Assuming no block start? I'm trying to count mine and was wondering where I should be aiming for.

There's no one-size-fits-all answer for your question, to be honest. There are many factors that will change the answer- are you sprinting, doing DPS, just swimming regularly, what's your stature/gender/how long have you been swimming?

For example, I'm 5'11", in the women's 30-34 age group, with 24 years of swimming in my tank. When I'm just swimming, I'm usually around 12 strokes. If I'm sprinting, I'm more like 15 or 16 strokes. When working on DPS, I can get down as low as 9 (but it's slow and not a comfortable way to swim, for me).

So my final answer is, it depends.

sok454
January 31st, 2013, 12:19 PM
Well.... I don't feel as bad now.... I'm 6'2 255, I have done 6 pool workouts in the last 2.5 weeks after a 25 year break. I am currently 36. I am weak cardio-wise. I haven't done much running since college and my core is weak at the moment. Fairly strong upper body. People think I played football in college with the way I'm built...they laugh when I tell them I was a 175-180 lb triple/long jumper!

Primarily I will be doing short events 50 free, 50 br. As I build endurance I'll pick up 100 free, 50 bf and eventually 100 IM. Its amazing how after each night in the pool I feel better and better about my stroke and my breathing. The first night I went I did 400 yards TOTAL and wanted to die.... Last night I did 1400 yds and was tired but no where near as bad as 2.5 weeks ago.

sok454
January 31st, 2013, 12:19 PM
Pardon my ignorance but what is DPS?

swimmieAvsFan
January 31st, 2013, 12:29 PM
Pardon my ignorance but what is DPS?

Distance per stroke. And that's exactly what it sounds like- get the most distance you can with each stroke.

With that kind of layoff and being that early in your comeback, 18 strokes isn't anything to sneeze at! I swim with a girl who is in better shape (both in and out of the pool) than probably the rest of our team, and she takes 21 strokes a length. But she's all of about 5'2" and has a crazy high turnover speed for a distance swimmer. So you'll get it lower, just from being back in the water.

sok454
January 31st, 2013, 12:34 PM
Long arms! I have fairly long arms. I guess they are good for something other than deadlifting and basketball!

osterber
February 1st, 2013, 10:55 AM
Usually about 8. Often on longer swims, the first length is 8 strokes, and then subsequent lengths are 9 strokes. When I get tired, 10 strokes. I'm 6'3" and have a pretty good wingspan.

-Rick

knelson
February 1st, 2013, 10:58 AM
Usually about 8.

Wow. That is impressive. During warmup when the goal is DPS I'll take 12, 11 if I'm really stretching. During normal aerobic swimming more like 14. I'm 6'2".

sok454
February 1st, 2013, 11:06 AM
For reference you guys that are doing 8-12 what are your times in the 50 and 100y free? Last night I was able to consistently get in the the 16-17 range without not stretching as much and lightly kicking. Honestly think the jammers helped a ton.

knelson
February 1st, 2013, 11:43 AM
For reference you guys that are doing 8-12 what are your times in the 50 and 100y free?

At my best, about 23 mid for the 50 and 50 seconds for the 100 free.

orca1946
February 1st, 2013, 01:11 PM
OK are we counting the count of both arms or one cycle of both arms as one?

habu987
February 1st, 2013, 02:24 PM
I work my walls, so unless I'm sprinting, I'm hitting anywhere from 9-12 strokes per 25. I'm 5'9" and have a slightly longer than average wingspan. I know I take more strokes per 25 when I'm sprinting, but have never counted. If I'm explicitly working DPS, I've gotten down to 8 strokes, but my normal aerobic count is usually around 11-12. I'll hit 9 or 10 on the first 25 of a set, then settle to 11-12 for the rest.

I can really ramp up the power I get from each stroke, so my count stays the same up till about 85% effort or so.

orca, I'm counting each arm pull as a separate stroke. Can't speak for anyone else.

jaadams1
February 2nd, 2013, 01:33 AM
In looking back through my YouTube videos of freestyle swims (200/500 distances) I'm taking 15 strokes per length, after the initial 25/50 once I settle into my stroke. Related, in 25 meter pool races, I take 16-17 SPL in the same distances (200/400 Frees). I'm 5'9" tall, and feel like I have a good DPS, and a well balanced kick.

rtodd
February 2nd, 2013, 12:23 PM
Elite swimmers are 8-9 strokes per length SCY in a 500 free without around a body length past the flag breakout. I think 14 is around average for masters swimmers, less is good. For sprints, the stroke count will go up 2-4 strokes.

sickfish
February 2nd, 2013, 12:31 PM
When I'm just warming up or focusing on stroke length, I do 11 strokes per 25 yards comfortably. As I get into a set and start getting tired I'll settle in to 12-13 strokes. For a sprint, I don't exactly know, but it's definitely more.

I'm 6'0" tall and the same fingertip-to-fingertip. I also tend to work all of my walls pretty hard. And I often sneak an extra stroke in before turns to get an extra breath :(

ElaineK
February 2nd, 2013, 08:46 PM
Hey guys, I'm curious about something... How do your backstroke stroke counts compare to your freestyle stroke counts?

jaadams1
February 2nd, 2013, 09:37 PM
Hey guys, I'm curious about something... How do your backstroke stroke counts compare to your freestyle stroke counts?

I actually was counting this a little bit today, not sure why, but I did. My freestyles are approx. 15 per length with streamlines/flipturns at each end. My backstroke SPL today was 12-13, with basically the same distance off the walls for the streamline. I know my turnover rate is slower in backstroke, and I'd give it a grade of B-

sickfish
February 2nd, 2013, 10:04 PM
My backstroke is not exactly what most would call "good", but I take about the same number of strokes as my freestyle. I think the worse technique is countered by the harder kicking. Also, I never do more than 50 yards of backstroke. If I tried a 200 the count might go up a lot by the end :D

Swimosaur
February 2nd, 2013, 10:06 PM
How do your backstroke stroke counts compare to your freestyle stroke counts?

Backstroke 1-2 SPL less than freestyle, at comparable (e.g. race) levels of effort.

ElaineK
February 3rd, 2013, 10:24 AM
Backstroke 1-2 SPL less than freestyle, at comparable (e.g. race) levels of effort.

Thanks, guys, for your response. I was just curious, because my stroke count in the backstroke portion of yesterday's race 400 IM averaged 2 strokes more than my freestyle count. Both were too high; 23 for backstroke and 21 for freestyle (open turns on both strokes and poor underwaters, as I needed air :drowning:). In a typical training session, by count is 18-19 for backstroke and 15-16 for freestyle. Improving my underwater streamline and SDK should get those counts down.

knelson
February 3rd, 2013, 12:04 PM
Elite swimmers are 8-9 strokes per length SCY in a 500 free

No way. Here's a video from 2009 NCAAs. I looked at a few different swimmers and 11-13 seems more typical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QTIR59bCO8

Karl_S
February 3rd, 2013, 12:52 PM
...from 2009 NCAAs. I looked at a few different swimmers and 11-13 seems more typical.

Agree. I have watched the University team here train and 11-13 is very common. I don't think I have ever seen <10.

Karl_S
February 3rd, 2013, 12:59 PM
Improving my underwater streamline and SDK should get those counts down.
True, but that isn't really working to improve the efficiency of your stroke, more like avoiding doing it. Now I fully understand that a lot of swimmers are having a great deal of success doing just that, (i.e. giving up distance swimming for distance SDK) and improving streamline has got to be one of the most fundamental things all swimmers should be working on, but while it is in-principle possible to get the stroke count down to 0 by improving streamline and SDK, that won't make your stroke any better! Oh heck I guess I am old fashioned, just SDK to victory and to heck with swimming on top of the water. :bolt:

__steve__
February 3rd, 2013, 02:01 PM
I find DPS is something I have to keep addressing or it naturally disappears. When I keep it in the back of my mind I do about 17 per 25M at moderate pace while surfacing by the flags (since I have no business under the water). If I really concentrate I manage 14 but anything less is becoming a drill. When I get tired, lazy or loose focus my counts increase to 20 - 21.

Sculling drills and counting strokes helps me

ElaineK
February 3rd, 2013, 03:12 PM
True, but that isn't really working to improve the efficiency of your stroke, more like avoiding doing it. Now I fully understand that a lot of swimmers are having a great deal of success doing just that, (i.e. giving up distance swimming for distance SDK) and improving streamline has got to be one of the most fundamental things all swimmers should be working on, but while it is in-principle possible to get the stroke count down to 0 by improving streamline and SDK, that won't make your stroke any better! Oh heck I guess I am old fashioned, just SDK to victory and to heck with swimming on top of the water. :bolt:

I didn't say I wasn't going to work on the efficiency of my stroke; I am always doing that. But, with coaching (and now training side-by-side with my coach), I have improved my stroke count quite a bit from where we started three years ago. At this point, I don't know how much lower I can get my stroke count with further efficiency improvements alone. And, physical issues/ limitations come in to play when it comes to dryland for strengthening. (Rather than experimenting like I have done in the past- and, paying for it- I have an appointment with a PT who is a Masters swimmer, for a evaluation and dryland recommendations specific to my limitations.)

So, knowing I have an obviously bad streamline (some of it due to those physical limitations) and SDK (I have no excuse; it's just BAD), I feel this is where I can gain the most improvement. :agree: Oh yeah; my backstroke start can use a lot of improvement, as well:

http://youtu.be/8ocbQC7DH_I I'm the one in the white cap and black suit. This was a personal best of :40.45 (I'm not a backstroker), but my start and turn need a lot of improvement. (And, no, flipturns are not possible due to an inner ear disorder that causes disorientation and seasickness. Since I can't practice them, I don't want to take a chance that I can nail it in a race.)

osterber
February 3rd, 2013, 03:34 PM
For reference you guys that are doing 8-12 what are your times in the 50 and 100y free? Last night I was able to consistently get in the the 16-17 range without not stretching as much and lightly kicking. Honestly think the jammers helped a ton.

As an 8-stoke-per-length person... once upon a time (20 years ago in college), I was a 1:38 200 freestyler, and could manage a 22 for the 50, and I think I hit 46.high for the 100. I haven't raced those in a long time. Working out SCY these days, I can usually manage 1:15 as a base, and occasionally 1:10 base for a challenge set that's not too long.

And yes, 8 stokes is counting each arm as one. For me, I have a pretty good pull-out, and will usually take the first stroke a couple yards past the flags. My 50-meter LCM stroke count is around 22. So that's 8 strokes for the first 25 yards, and 14 for the last 30 yards. If my stroke rate is consistent, that suggests I'm getting 7.9 yards off the wall.

-Rick

knelson
February 3rd, 2013, 04:19 PM
My 50-meter LCM stroke count is around 22.

That's pretty exceptional. I struggle to get under 30 for a 50 long course. Typically I think I'm around 35 or so in normal swimming.

notsofast
February 4th, 2013, 08:27 AM
These guys seem to be between 35 and 40 for 50 meters long course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHV51mTwTdk

That Guy
February 4th, 2013, 09:29 AM
Here's a video of Phelps in the 500 free where he tops out at 11 SPL.

http://youtu.be/S4djknQieXI
Osterber's stroke counts are amazing! Sun Yang takes 27 in LCM.

sok454
February 4th, 2013, 11:32 PM
How many strokes in a 25 breast w a wall push off?

slow
February 5th, 2013, 12:42 AM
By my count, Michael Gross (Albatross) took 32 strokes for third length and 35 strokes for last length in the 200M freestyle at 1984 Olympics (1:47.44 WR). He was (well, is) 2.01 meters (6'7") tall with a 2.13 meter (7'0") wingspan.

ElaineK
February 5th, 2013, 02:39 PM
How many strokes in a 25 breast w a wall push off?

My sweet spot is 11 at my fastest speed (50 race pace).

Jimbosback
February 5th, 2013, 02:55 PM
How many strokes in a 25 breast w a wall push off?

Cruising speed, 6-7, fastest 9-10, though I am really working on going as fast with 6-7. There is a lot of discussion about this in The Breaststroke Lane (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?16584-The-Breastroke-Lane).

ekw
February 5th, 2013, 03:08 PM
How many strokes in a 25 breast w a wall push off?

Breeja Larson in short course yards - four strokes :bow: (ETA from a dive)
http://swimswam.com/watch-breeja-larson-breaks-american-record-video/

6-7 without a dive

sok454
February 5th, 2013, 03:35 PM
What are you guys doing your 50's in?

Allen Stark
February 5th, 2013, 06:14 PM
How many strokes in a 25 breast w a wall push off?
Working on DPS :3-4,200 pace:6-61/2,100 pace :7-8,AFAP:9.

jaadams1
February 5th, 2013, 08:12 PM
How many strokes in a 25 breast w a wall push off?

Who knows...breaststroke is mainly used as "IM filler" and for gridging with Allen Stark. :D

ElaineK
February 5th, 2013, 08:45 PM
What are you guys doing your 50's in?

Do us gals get to chime in here, too? When I'm not racing 5 events (including 400 IM and/or 200 fly and 200 breaststroke) and 2 relays per day at a meet, my breaststroke time is :40 or :41. (Darn it; I haven't been able to get back below 40 since 2011. :bitching:) My stroke count in those races is 10 off the blocks and 13 on the back half; too high, I know. I'm still working on it!

Typically, when I train 25's from a push-off, I'm coming in at :21 on 11 strokes; my average.

Allen Stark
February 5th, 2013, 10:46 PM
What are you guys doing your 50's in?
My last 50 breast at a meet was 31.14.I don't have the stroke count for that though.

Jimbosback
February 5th, 2013, 10:59 PM
What are you guys doing your 50's in?

With my holiday weight and winter coat, 6 strokes = low 40s, 9 strokes = high 30s, from push.

mcnair
February 5th, 2013, 11:18 PM
Love this thread... I feel like I know everyone so much better now ;)

When I first started swimming a few years back I worked really hard on DPS and when I started swimming seriously as my main mode of exercise a couple of years ago I could hit 9-11 SCY when focused, but my times didn't get much better for a long time simply because I didn't want to sacrifice any of those strokes to increase speed. My problem, as I found out last year, was obsessing about stroke count and completely ignoring stroke rate. It's important to find your optimal stroke rate too... you can have a really low stroke count but with a really slow turnover rate you won't do much more than glide. That's where I was for a while. Now I'm happy with a stroke count of 14-17 per 25 because the speed trade off was worth it. At some point I'll probably revisit the stroke length again to see if I can increase it slightly while maintaining the same stroke rate.

mcnair
February 7th, 2013, 10:13 AM
When I was in the pool yesterday for a quick workout I did take my stroke count, especially in warm-up. Freestyle, EZ swim, I was around 14-15 per 25 (pace :48-:52/50) at the beginning, at the end of the warm-up I was at 17-18 (pace: :38-:40/50). Backstroke was around 18-19 per length; deteriorating to 21-22 in the context of a mid-set 200 IM (pace = :50-:55/50).

I'm 6" (175-ish) w/ average wingspan. I know the stroke count could be better, but I being an "adult-onset" swimmer I have to be realistic and balance a lot of things to make incremental changes/improvements slowly over time. As an example of why stroke count isn't everything; about 1.5 years ago I would play swimming golf with myself (50 time + # strokes) and be happy that I could get down to the mid 70s by having taking 20 strokes (or even a little less) per 50 SCY and swimming around :55 (or a little slower). If I apply swim golf to my warm-up 50s from yesterday I come up with the same score, maybe even a little better, 73-74 = :38 + 35-36 strokes. That's a lot more strokes, but it's also a lot less time.

Always something to work on, that's part of the fun!

sok454
February 7th, 2013, 10:22 AM
How do you do 6 strokes total (i assume for each 25) and still go low 40's? Man that is impressive. What are you best 50 times then? Man... I have a ton of work to do. I'm still sitting at 15-17 per 25 and doing around 40-45 in my sets. I must just have either really weak pulls or really weak kicks or a combo of both.

mcnair
February 7th, 2013, 10:33 AM
How do you do 6 strokes total (i assume for each 25) and still go low 40's? Man that is impressive. What are you best 50 times then? Man... I have a ton of work to do. I'm still sitting at 15-17 per 25 and doing around 40-45 in my sets. I must just have either really weak pulls or really weak kicks or a combo of both.

They're referring to breaststroke counts, not free... my breast is terrible, but I was counting 8-9 strokes yesterday (times in the mid to hi-:50s).

sok454
February 7th, 2013, 10:42 AM
Man I'm still way off on my br counts too then.... I was going sub 20's on 25's and about 50 on my 50's last night and was no where near that low. My glide is non existent!

Jimbosback
February 7th, 2013, 10:50 AM
How do you do 6 strokes total (i assume for each 25) and still go low 40's? Man that is impressive. What are you best 50 times then? Man... I have a ton of work to do. I'm still sitting at 15-17 per 25 and doing around 40-45 in my sets. I must just have either really weak pulls or really weak kicks or a combo of both.

I think this refers to my post. It is Br, 6 strokes per 25, after pullout, about 22 seconds per 25. My 50 is probably about 32 right now, probably 11-12 strokes on the back 50 on a sprint. I am training for the 200 Br, and my goal is to get those 6-stroke repeats under 40.

I have been working on this (DPS) for a few years -- mostly by doing underwater breaststroke drills. It is all about learning to position your body to glide, and I am actually not all that good at it. I am built like a barge.

Fresnoid
February 7th, 2013, 11:03 AM
I paid attention to stroke count per 25 yards yesterday.
Warm up - 11-12
Cruising 50's at :35 on a :50 interval - 13-14
End of a set of 8 50's on a :35 interval - 17 (and it was gonna get worse if the set was any longer)

Allen Stark
February 7th, 2013, 11:25 AM
About 12 years ago a friend of mine,Bob Smith, challenged me to do this set he thought of, with him-5X50 breaststroke on the minute taking no more than 5 strokes after the breakout and keeping each 50 under 40 sec.Bob is a pure sprinter,6'4", who is great in all the strokes and always coming up with some set to work on and keep things interesting.Bob also has great pullouts so he started out with an advantage(I am 5'8".) I managed to do the set with him with in the parameters.I can't do it anymore,but I do regularly do 4X50 on the minute under 40 in 6 strokes.

sok454
February 7th, 2013, 11:35 AM
Wow. That is awesome. How far are the pullouts?

What were his fastest times??? Man that is impressive for you especially at being only 5'8. You must have some massive kick and pull.

knelson
February 7th, 2013, 11:49 AM
I can't find a video, but I remember hearing that Kevin Cordes took six strokes per length (other than the first and last lengths) when he recently set a new American Record in the 200 breast.

Allen Stark
February 7th, 2013, 12:35 PM
Wow. That is awesome. How far are the pullouts?

What were his fastest times??? Man that is impressive for you especially at being only 5'8. You must have some massive kick and pull.
My pullouts were 30+ feet,Bob about 2-3 ft further.We were both low 30 for a 50 BR then at a taper meet.I do have a very good kick and am constantly working to improve my pull.My stroke count for each 50 of my best for age 200 LCM BR was 16,20,21,24.

sok454
February 7th, 2013, 02:05 PM
So you were pulling out right around the mid point of 25 yd lane? Nice! When you were doing block starts how far would you make it???

Swimosaur
February 7th, 2013, 02:06 PM
Wow. That is awesome.

Really good breaststrokers like Allen are exactly that: Awesome.

Here is Steve West setting WR M35-39 SCM 200 breast at the SPMA Championships, Dec 2011. Stroke count for this 200 meter swim was 5 + 6 + 6 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 8 + 10. It's particularly interesting because he employs a whole range of stroke lengths and stroke rates. Splits (http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/swim.php?s=1562605) were 31.10 + 34.61 (1:05.71) + 34.98 + 34.95 (1:09.93) = 2:15.64. Wow.

8DKn4cgS6o4

quicksilver
February 7th, 2013, 02:20 PM
After Hill Taylor's 1 stroke per lap 100 back in this video (http://www.floswimming.org/coverage/271-Weekly-Wednesday-Workout/video/80787-Friday-Afternoon-Texas), you can see what 6 strokes per length looks like on a good breastroker. They were playing with a no 15 meter rule, but he was fairly close to being legit.

And to answer your earlier question Elaine, backstroke spl should be lower than freetsyle just by dint of getting a good series of dolphins off of each turn.

My stroke count is 8 per lap during a 200 back (+/- ten yards spent underwater.)
Freestyle spl is 10/11 during practice. 14/15 on an all out sprint. (Height: 6'-3" Wing span: 6'-5".)

sok454
February 7th, 2013, 02:37 PM
Holy cow that dude is flying... wow.

ElaineK
February 7th, 2013, 03:11 PM
After Hill Taylor's 1 stroke per lap 100 back in this video (http://www.floswimming.org/coverage/271-Weekly-Wednesday-Workout/video/80787-Friday-Afternoon-Texas), you can see what 6 strokes per length looks like on a good breastroker. They were playing with a no 15 meter rule, but he was fairly close to being legit.

And to answer your earlier question Elaine, backstroke spl should be lower than freetsyle just by dint of getting a good series of dolphins off of each turn.

My stroke count is 8 per lap during a 200 back (+/- ten yards spent underwater.)
Freestyle spl is 10/11 during practice. 14/15 on an all out sprint. (Height: 6'-3" Wing span: 6'-5".)

Thanks, Quick! Wow, that's an incredible stroke count you have. :applaud: As for Hill Taylor, I wish I had a fraction of his lung capacity! :bow:

Allen Stark
February 7th, 2013, 03:20 PM
Really good breaststrokers like Allen are exactly that: Awesome.

Here is Steve West setting WR M35-39 SCM 200 breast at the SPMA Championships, Dec 2011. Stroke count for this 200 meter swim was 5 + 6 + 6 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 8 + 10. It's particularly interesting because he employs a whole range of stroke lengths and stroke rates. Splits (http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/swim.php?s=1562605) were 31.10 + 34.61 (1:05.71) + 34.98 + 34.95 (1:09.93) = 2:15.64. Wow.

8DKn4cgS6o4
Thanks for that video.That is a great example of a well swum race.

That Guy
February 7th, 2013, 03:41 PM
I can't find a video, but I remember hearing that Kevin Cordes took six strokes per length (other than the first and last lengths) when he recently set a new American Record in the 200 breast.

Amazingly, he took 6 only on the last 25! 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 6 http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?4229-Ande-s-Swimming-Tips-Swimming-Faster-Faster&p=278430&viewfull=1#post278430

knelson
February 7th, 2013, 04:23 PM
Amazingly, he took 6 only on the last 25! 3 4 4 4 4 4 5 6

I knew I read about his stroke count somewhere and forgot it was here. That is even more astonishing. I watched the video from NCAA finals last year and he seemed to be taking about 6 per 25 then. Amazing he can cut his stroke count down by something like 25% and go faster!

sok454
February 7th, 2013, 04:41 PM
How big is he?

Allen Stark
February 7th, 2013, 04:49 PM
How big is he?

I think Kitajima has probably the best DPS of any breaststroker and he is 5'9".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08RK1BRNkNM

rtodd
February 7th, 2013, 09:25 PM
No way. Here's a video from 2009 NCAAs. I looked at a few different swimmers and 11-13 seems more typical.

Knelson,

Probably exagerated, more like 9-10 would be the range for the super elite. I wanted to make the point of how some swimmers can really glide and still be fast. Check this swim out!

http://www.floswimming.org/coverage/153-The-Classic-at-SMU/video/7422-Webglia-M5FREEA297flv

Let's count strokes in breastroke shall we?

http://www.floswimming.org/coverage/153-The-Classic-at-SMU/video/7411-Webglia-M2BREASTB781flv

GregJS
February 9th, 2013, 12:21 AM
wow - those two videos were a true education for me - amazing! I'm psyched when I get a length of 12 spl every once in a while during a moderate swim. Faster swimming puts me in the 15+ range.

Nice to see what's possible.

rtodd
February 9th, 2013, 10:21 AM
It is amazying. I posted them not to show what has to be done, but what can be done. Everyone is different, but we all strive for the lowest stroke count while maintaining our tempo.

sok454
February 9th, 2013, 05:46 PM
ithinki finally mywifeinto ideo taping so can get an idea f ow y form looking rd to getting critique

That Guy
February 9th, 2013, 07:02 PM
ithinki finally mywifeinto ideo taping so can get an idea f ow y form looking rd to getting critique
Is that a first for this forum? I don't think anyone's ever managed to post while underwater before. :applaud:

Karl_S
February 10th, 2013, 03:19 PM
Conger ~13 SPL
Ledecky ~16 SPL
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?19801-Broken-Records&p=282240&viewfull=1#post282240

EdC
February 12th, 2013, 07:16 PM
I presume we are talking about 1 set/ two arms. If so, then I do 25 meters with 10 stroke sets.

geochuck
February 13th, 2013, 07:16 AM
I did all of my stroke countig with 1 dolphin kick and it was 10 or 11.

knelson
February 13th, 2013, 10:05 AM
I presume we are talking about 1 set/ two arms. If so, then I do 25 meters with 10 stroke sets.

No, most people are talking about each arm pull being considered one stroke. So 10 would mean five "sets" in your parlance.

mcnair
February 14th, 2013, 10:42 PM
The last couple of days I started using SPL counts on my backstroke to help me not crash the wall on the side without backstroke flags. It's still not fool-proof, I get into a rhythm and 20 seems about right, but every now and again I'll be at 18 and "sense" I need to turn... sure enough. Yesterday I was doing 200s and 20 sPL was the magic number, today I was doing 100s and the SPL was all over the place. I'm new to back stroke, is this fluctuation (17-20) normal? Should I be aiming for more consistency?

habu987
February 15th, 2013, 12:57 PM
The last couple of days I started using SPL counts on my backstroke to help me not crash the wall on the side without backstroke flags. It's still not fool-proof, I get into a rhythm and 20 seems about right, but every now and again I'll be at 18 and "sense" I need to turn... sure enough. Yesterday I was doing 200s and 20 sPL was the magic number, today I was doing 100s and the SPL was all over the place. I'm new to back stroke, is this fluctuation (17-20) normal? Should I be aiming for more consistency?

My stroke count is all over the place, but depending on the speed/number of SDKs I'm doing, it usually falls into the same ballpark given similar variables. For example, my stroke count increases each 25 for the first 75 of the 200 back in a race, but then *usually* stays the same for the rest of the race.

All that said, I never go by stroke count when I'm swimming, whether in a race or in practice--I always just go based on feel and the flags.

mlabresh
February 19th, 2013, 10:10 PM
Man, reading these posts really makes me wish I was taller! :P I haven't done a stroke count in quite a while.. but I'm usually in the 20+ range for free. I try to focus less on counting them (unless I'm trying to gauge improvement) and work more on lengthening. Being only 5'2", I need all the s t r e t c h I can get!

sok454
February 19th, 2013, 11:22 PM
Man, reading these posts really makes me wish I was taller! :P I haven't done a stroke count in quite a while.. but I'm usually in the 20+ range for free. I try to focus less on counting them (unless I'm trying to gauge improvement) and work more on lengthening. Being only 5'2", I need all the s t r e t c h I can get!
Do you wish you were a baller?

__steve__
February 20th, 2013, 09:43 AM
Man, reading these posts really makes me wish I was taller! :P I haven't done a stroke count in quite a while.. but I'm usually in the 20+ range for free. I try to focus less on counting them (unless I'm trying to gauge improvement) and work more on lengthening. Being only 5'2", I need all the s t r e t c h I can get!Stroke count might be overrated during a race. On a pb 50 relay leg I took 14 strokes to the turn without a breath, but I turned short. On the way back I took a breath, then had to hussle taking 20 strokes to touch in24.62. I watched a video of it and I was barely under 12 to the feet. My armspan is 6'3".

sok454
February 20th, 2013, 09:54 AM
I'll have to check my armspan. Long arms always helped me out in blocking shots for basketball. well that and have a 30+" vert.

mlabresh
February 20th, 2013, 11:08 AM
Do you wish you were a baller?

Yes! How did you know!? ;)


Stroke count might be overrated during a race. On a pb 50 relay leg I took 14 strokes to the turn without a breath, but I turned short. On the way back I took a breath, then had to hussle taking 20 strokes to touch in24.62. I watched a video of it and I was barely under 12 to the feet. My armspan is 6'3".

That's good to know. And it's part of why I rarely do stroke counts. Us little people have to make up for our lack of length with more strength. I figure, I can keep up with 13-16yo girls who are taller than me, so I must not be doing TOO badly, right? :P

__steve__
February 20th, 2013, 02:02 PM
Count strokes at practice but take as many as you need in a race

ekw
February 23rd, 2013, 11:14 AM
I saw somewhere on Swimswam yesterday (maybe their Twitter feed) that Breeja Larson took 25 strokes total in her 100 breaststroke at the SEC championships. I counted mine in practice last night and it was roughly 800 per 100.

vo2
March 2nd, 2013, 06:17 AM
Huge variance depending on how one starts off the wall as well. Start stroking with no push off? 1 dolphin kick? 3 dolphins? I push off into a streamline with one dolphin kick and treat it like a break out with no breathing until I peel off 2 strokes.

One thing I'd suggest to just be keenly aware of with stroke counting is not getting too hung up to where that's all you focus on. I see quite a bit of this where people get dragged into the total immersion voodoo of gliding a bunch which I see a ton of with the triathlete crowd at our pools. Accelerate, decelerate, accelerate, decelerate. Huge pauses and gaps in their strokes leaning on a dropped elbow it's exhausting to watch. All the way down the pool at 2:20 100 yard pace, but they only took 10 strokes!

With that said I'm 6'1" and kind of a long torso/average wingspan build. Aerobic sets are 12-13 and 50's typically done ~ 15-16. As a point of reference I did a set of 6 x 200 last week counting my strokes and they were from 2:35 to 2:29 with an average of 14 strokes/25 yard length. The only thing I think about on 200 and above is 2:3 breathing patterns mixed in and stroke count. I know if I get enough air and keep my core speed/rotation driving the stroke count my times will be within a hand full of seconds. The stroke count can kind of be misleading too on shorter stuff b/c I use more of a shoulder driven stroke which lends itself to a higher stroke rate. 200 and up it's more hip driven which lends itself to a lower stroke rate as well.

Karl_S
March 2nd, 2013, 11:42 AM
This thread prompted me to investigate the relationship between speed and SPL in my swimming.
I blogged about it here: http://forums.usms.org/entry.php?27456-SPL-experiment
I'd be very interested to see similar analyses for other swimmers.

Karl_S
March 14th, 2013, 01:50 PM
This thread prompted me to investigate the relationship between speed and SPL in my swimming.

Today's effort:


SPL time
15 1:25
16 1:23
17 1:19
18 1:15
19 1:13
21 1:10
21 1:10
19 1:16
18 1:19
17 1:20
16 1:23
15 1:25

olegmeister
March 24th, 2013, 06:20 PM
Apart from losing weight, what has worked for you to reduce your stroke count per length?
I'm at around 18-20 with a six-beat kick. I don't feel I can reduce the count without adding an element of glide.

thanks

Fishy
March 25th, 2013, 04:55 AM
I swim in a 33 meter pool.
If I am relaxed and warmed up and concentrate on keeping my SPL down I need 11 strokes (starting from the wall; one underwater pull at the beginning). Normaly I need 12 or even 15 - if I'm tired.
Sometimes I swim like a torpedo, or at least I fell like one :). I do not watch my times, but I got a few compliments on my speed from swim team members). I wish I could swim like that all the time. At the begining of my swims I am generaly tense and slow. I need to swim a few hundred meters to propely function. After that it is so much better. What is this sensation? Is this due to not being warmed up?

BTW I was talking about breaststroke and not freestyle. As for freestyle, I need 22-25ish. Again in 33 meter pool. No dolphin kick at the beginning, just a push-off the wall and a little streamline.

habu987
March 25th, 2013, 10:04 AM
I counted mine in practice last night and it was roughly 800 per 100.

I'd like to see your turnover in a 100 breast, if you take 800 strokes!!! :bolt:

fmracing
March 25th, 2013, 10:55 AM
After reviewing footage from my 200yd free this weekend:

Strokes per length, each length:
9
12
11
12
13
12
13
13

Time 1:52.9

And my 100 free:
11
13
13
14

Time 50.0

Swimosaur
March 25th, 2013, 11:00 AM
... 200yd free this weekend:

Strokes per length, each length: 9 12 11 12 13 12 13 13 Time 1:52.9

Nice swim! What were the splits?

fmracing
March 25th, 2013, 11:07 AM
53.9, 59.0 lol. That back half will come way down after taper for nats. I haven't swam this event since last april, but last year was 1:51.3, and that was tapered/shaved and 35lbs heavier ;)

sok454
March 25th, 2013, 12:20 PM
Jeesh. Awesome job.

fmracing
March 25th, 2013, 02:48 PM
Awesome job.

Thanks :)

habu987
March 25th, 2013, 04:24 PM
Apart from losing weight, what has worked for you to reduce your stroke count per length?
I'm at around 18-20 with a six-beat kick. I don't feel I can reduce the count without adding an element of glide.

thanks

The biggest thing for me is working your underwaters. If you've got good lung capacity and a strong dolphin/flutter kick, you'll be able to pick up quite a bit of ground at speed under the surface. If I'm swimming at aerobic pace, I do 3-4 dolphin kicks off each wall and take 11-12 SPL. If I just flutter kick off the wall, I take 12-14 strokes, depending on how far I kick.

All that said, it also depends on how strong you are in the water; more specifically, how strong your pull is. We've got one guy on the team (probably the strongest guy) who just thrashes the water when he swims, no matter the pace--he's at ~20 SPL at aerobic pace. I watched a video of him on one of our 200Y free relays, and his SPL was 18/24 with a relay start. He just spins through the water and doesn't really work his walls. He's a slightly faster sprinter than I am, so it works for him to at least some degree, but I personally think he needs to work more on catching the water.

I went back and looked at videos of my freestyle races from the last year, 4x50 (two relays and two individuals) and 1x100. Here were my stroke counts:

Spring Regular 50 free #1: 12/18
Fall regular 50 free #2: 13/17 (last event of the meet, so I didn't have as high a turnover as I wanted)
Nationals Relay 50 free #1: 12/18
Fall Relay 50 free #2: 9/14 (I tried galloping and wasn't running at 100% speed, to boot)
Fall 100 free: 12/14/14/16 (last event of the meet, so I was completely burned out and had no turnover)

My underwaters on a relay are better than in the individual 50 free, but I've been working at increasing my turnover, so my SPL is about the same now as it was at Nats last year.

Jimbosback
March 25th, 2013, 06:47 PM
Apart from losing weight, what has worked for you to reduce your stroke count per length?
I'm at around 18-20 with a six-beat kick. I don't feel I can reduce the count without adding an element of glide.

thanks

I have been working hard on my kick (first I had to learn to swim with 6-beat instead of 'maniac' kick, and also really working on my catch and being strong pulling through the entire stroke, mostly with pull buoy drilling. My DPS is much improved, though not exactly great.

GregJS
March 25th, 2013, 10:10 PM
[QUOTE=olegmeister;284765]Apart from losing weight, what has worked for you to reduce your stroke count per length?
I'm at around 18-20 with a six-beat kick. I don't feel I can reduce the count without adding an element of glide.
(why did my quote of olegmeister come out looking like that instead of the nice blue box?)


I'm working on getting my hip rotation coordinated with my arms and legs. Whenever that happens and it feels like my hip rotation is "driving" my stroke, my SPL goes down. It feels good too. But I'm not used to it and it wears me out quickly. But they say once those core muscles get conditioned, they don't get tired as quickly as arms and legs do. Hope so.