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astro
April 9th, 2013, 04:21 AM
Hi,


I've been following this forum for more then a year and this is my first post here.


My daughter is 9 years old and she has been swimming for 2 years. For the last 8 months she's been training 4 days per week; half-hour dryland, one hour pool. She is a happy swimmer and they have great friendship within the team. Her free and breaststroke styles are quite fine. Her short-course(25m) 50meter times are: Free 40 ; Back 48 ; Breast 51 ; Fly 50


But whenever she's in a meet, her stamina drops clearly at around 35m. As for the freestyle, her 25meter time is around 16 seconds. She usually turns before her friends, falls behind at last 15meter. It disappoints her.


How can we help her to build up her endurance?


What should we have her eat before the meet? Should we take her out for jogging, hiking, biking or any other physical activity? All suggestions and hints are appreciated.


Thanks in advance!

ande
April 9th, 2013, 03:08 PM
Your daughter is just 9. She's training 4 days per week; half-hour dryland, one hour pool. She's a happy swimmer.

"But whenever she's in a meet, her stamina drops clearly at around 35m. As for the freestyle, her 25meter time is around 16 seconds. She usually turns before her friends, falls behind at last 15 meter. It disappoints her."

How can we help her to build up her endurance?
Don't worry about it, don't talk about it, let her and her coach figure it out.

Your job is to get her to practice and provide her with what she needs.
Be happy for her when she does good and support her when she's struggling.

It's hard to say at 9 that swimming will be her sport.

What should we have her eat before the meet?
a small meal but don't worry about it too much, it doesn't really matter.

Should we take her out for jogging, hiking, biking or any other physical activity?
maybe but probably not. She's a happy swimmer, let swimming be her happy place.
Let her drive come from her.
Don't coach her. You may do family physical activities if they are FUN. BUT NO TALKING ABOUT
if you do this it might help you finish your races better.

The truth is, as she gets older and if she loves swimming and progresses, her training will pick up, she'll get in better shape, as she matures she'll get bigger and stronger.

At this point, drive, cheer, shoot video, take pictures, lightly encourage her,
put her in the best convenient program in your area.
let swimming be her thing and I hope it's always fun for her.

Also you're assuming fading in her races happens from lack of conditioning, that is sometimes true, but it usually happens because of incorrect splitting. Trying too hard too soon in a race instead of correct pacing.

Now is the time to have fun & develop beautiful technique which creates a foundation for when she's 11, 12, & beyond.


consider this info:

AN OPEN LETTER TO SWIM PARENTS (http://bellsouthpwp.net/y/a/yaunlins/parents/0601_openletter2swimparents.pdf)

here's some swim parent threads

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?21518-Advice-for-dad-of-new-6yo-swimmer

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?21106-Should-my-kids-stay-on-this-swim-team

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?15874-9-Year-Old-Marvel-What-But-How

gobears
April 9th, 2013, 03:12 PM
Great reply, Ande.:)

Glenn
April 9th, 2013, 03:28 PM
I taught elementary physical education for many years. Ande is 2000% correct! She is 9 years old. Whatever she does should be fun. Period.

astro
April 9th, 2013, 06:00 PM
Many thanks for the great advice.. I really appreciate it.


Yes, I'm driving, cheering -more for her friends-, shooting videos, taking pictures. No coaching, no talking, no worrying.. I'm not like that 9y old marvel's dad. :)


I got my answers:
- a small meal, it doesn't really matter what she eats.
- some other physical activity that she will have fun is OK for conditioning.

Jimbosback
April 9th, 2013, 06:18 PM
A lot of masters die at 35M, too. :blush:

astro
April 9th, 2013, 06:45 PM
:) she swims around 1800meter 4days/week.. I admire her :)
A lot of masters die at 35M, too. :blush:

gobears
April 9th, 2013, 06:46 PM
I'm not like that 9y old marvel's dad. :)


It's rarely the "marvels" that have the pushy parents. Most with overzealous parents end up not having fun and quitting eventually.

astro
April 9th, 2013, 06:48 PM
It's rarely the "marvels" that have the pushy parents. Most with overzealous parents end up not having fun and quitting eventually.
+1

ekw
April 9th, 2013, 09:10 PM
For what it's worth, when I was that age I swore that pancakes were the best pre-meet meal. :)

sok454
April 9th, 2013, 11:42 PM
Mcd's hot cakes for me! My son eats a sausage egg bisquit from mcd

magick17
April 10th, 2013, 11:09 AM
Mcd's hot cakes for me! My son eats a sausage egg bisquit from mcd
My 9 year old eats mcgriddles.. It's the only thing to get up early for on days with 7 am warm up times..glad I'm not the only one.

My son who is now a self driven 14 year old swimmer..used to like sausage mcmuffins...lol
lol oh and I volunteer as the registration person for our club and masters meet director...my husband is an official..get involved..it's the best place to be !! You'll be so busy you'll have no idea of their times..says a 7 year swim parent...
good luck..we all live & learn!

SolarEnergy
April 10th, 2013, 01:43 PM
But whenever she's in a meet, her stamina drops clearly at around 35m. As for the freestyle, her 25meter time is around 16 seconds. She usually turns before her friends, falls behind at last 15meter. It disappoints her.

Hmm, 9yo is way too young to worry about these things. Your daughter is not lacking endurance, but rather anaerobic capacity (technicality). At that age, we strongly discourage trying to improve this other than through her normal swim development process, which should promotes fun above anything else.

The only productive way with which you could, as a parent, interact would be to help her understanding the concept of pacing, ie not starting off too hard. Free 40sec? 16sec after 25m? I'd try to get her to start in 17.5 instead and see if that alone could bring her under 40sec.

astro
April 11th, 2013, 04:54 AM
Hmm, 9yo is way too young to worry about these things. Your daughter is not lacking endurance, but rather anaerobic capacity (technicality). At that age, we strongly discourage trying to improve this other than through her normal swim development process, which should promotes fun above anything else.

The only productive way with which you could, as a parent, interact would be to help her understanding the concept of pacing, ie not starting off too hard. Free 40sec? 16sec after 25m? I'd try to get her to start in 17.5 instead and see if that alone could bring her under 40sec.

Thanks.. Next time, I will tell her to save some energy for the last 25m.


I notice that competitive swimming is fun for kids and it is even more "fun" if they finish first. Relay races within the team are their favorite because it's time for competition!


She has a friend that usually finishes all the races in the last position. She started to lose her interest lately. Her mother said that she does not want to come to training because she's not happy with the results at all. Of course the results are not important, the technique is, but it's hard to explain this to a little kid..


So, I think competitive swimming and good results promote fun and motivation.

astro
April 11th, 2013, 05:05 AM
For what it's worth, when I was that age I swore that pancakes were the best pre-meet meal. :)

Her favorite... :) with banana & Nutella..!
But as far as I know Nutella (sugar) is not good. Am I wrong?

ekw
April 11th, 2013, 09:01 AM
Her favorite... :) with banana & Nutella..!
But as far as I know Nutella (sugar) is not good. Am I wrong?

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/mom-brought-nutella.jpg

astro
April 11th, 2013, 09:17 AM
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/mom-brought-nutella.jpg
:D

astro
October 30th, 2013, 08:19 AM
Hi... Just wanted to add some feedback on this topic.

First of all, she's still an happy swimmer. :)

What she prefers to eat:
If her race is in the early morning; cheese spread on a slice of bread and apricot juice. A banana, half an hour before her race.
If in the afternoon; full breakfast (omelette, crepe, milk, etc.) + lunch; pasta with grated cheese or minced beef on it. A snickers or a banana just before her race.

She swims 5 day/week since two months. Her styles are much better now and improved her times as follows:
(SC-25m) 50m Fr-38s ; Bk-44s ; Br-49s ; Fly-41s

Karl_S
October 30th, 2013, 09:23 AM
For what it's worth, when I was that age I swore that pancakes were the best pre-meet meal. :)
Aren't they? Well actually waffles are slightly better, with a banana, 2+ hours before swimming. Yum!

chowmi
October 30th, 2013, 12:59 PM
Emphasize the things they do right, and reaffirm what the coach teaches, such as "I saw you really make an effort to streamline and you got a few feet farther on your dive!" Instead of whether they did a better time or not. Every child will mature at different rates - and if you look at those tables of the top 16 at the earliest age, only 11% are still there by late teens.

Also, it's about balance and choices, and not trying to "do it perfectly". Whatever is your normal routine - don't do anything different on or around swim meets. Use common sense in your choice of food, surrounding activity, etc. There isn't a magic bullet breakfast that will be the only solution.

And remember that as they grow, regardless of how they measure up on paper, they will often regress or hold steady with no time improvement as part of the growing process. I tell my girls that they aren't as strong because all their energy is going to making the bones and getting taller, and so there's not as muc energy available right now for their muscles. And because their bones are growing, that's why they are less coordinated now (one girl is a mess at pulling, the other has lost her kick! but a perfect wheelbarrow team!), because their skeletal frame is changing and it takes time for the new you to get coordinated! It's simply a rite of passage that this is the only window for the bones to grow, but when they are older, there is more frame for more muscle! As an example I point out a gymnast in their class who is really strong, coordinated for her size and age. You can't compare yourself to her abilities now when all your energy is diverted to making bones and the rest of your body is literally trying to catch up.

Now, that is totally made up but it's a way for the girls to understand how growth can affect where they are, and especially to understand why the motivational times are so tough. But that is why technique is so important now, because they have to RE-imprint proper techniques for the new bodies as they grow. Everything will follow as the physical body catches up! The ONE thing they can control is attitude. I will not put up with a bad attitude!

StewartACarroll
October 30th, 2013, 01:33 PM
I have a 10 year old who had similar problems about 6 months ago. Roll forward 6 months and she has more endurance and generally looks great in the pool. I put all of this down to her having fun, working on her fundamentals and building up more strength in general. I agree 100% with Ande's comments especially the part about letting her have fun and work out her strokes and endurance with her coach. You are a long way ahead of the game already in that your daughter is having fun. My daughter swims with kids who dont like being at the pool and whose parents make them attend. I would guess there is a pretty strong liklihood that these kids will drop out sometime in the next year unless they start having fun.

Good luck.

astro
October 31st, 2013, 07:31 AM
Thanks for your feedback on this.

Yes, we do congrat her as she improves her streamline etc. Besides that, from meet to meet, we do congrat her for the improved times. If there is no improvement, we encourage her for the future. We feel someone should. :)

Her coach is almost always negative about techniques and times.. For everyone in the team. Emphasizes that she pays attention to what he teaches and be lively during training, and develops her techniques. But she has to be (they all have to be) fast when it comes to a meet!!

We will drive her, cheer for her as long as she wants to be there. If a day comes that she wants to quit, she quits.

I have just read about Kris Humphries the day ago..!



Emphasize the things they do right, and reaffirm what the coach teaches, such as "I saw you really make an effort to streamline and you got a few feet farther on your dive!" Instead of whether they did a better time or not. Every child will mature at different rates - and if you look at those tables of the top 16 at the earliest age, only 11% are still there by late teens.

Also, it's about balance and choices, and not trying to "do it perfectly". Whatever is your normal routine - don't do anything different on or around swim meets. Use common sense in your choice of food, surrounding activity, etc. There isn't a magic bullet breakfast that will be the only solution.

And remember that as they grow, regardless of how they measure up on paper, they will often regress or hold steady with no time improvement as part of the growing process. I tell my girls that they aren't as strong because all their energy is going to making the bones and getting taller, and so there's not as muc energy available right now for their muscles. And because their bones are growing, that's why they are less coordinated now (one girl is a mess at pulling, the other has lost her kick! but a perfect wheelbarrow team!), because their skeletal frame is changing and it takes time for the new you to get coordinated! It's simply a rite of passage that this is the only window for the bones to grow, but when they are older, there is more frame for more muscle! As an example I point out a gymnast in their class who is really strong, coordinated for her size and age. You can't compare yourself to her abilities now when all your energy is diverted to making bones and the rest of your body is literally trying to catch up.

Now, that is totally made up but it's a way for the girls to understand how growth can affect where they are, and especially to understand why the motivational times are so tough. But that is why technique is so important now, because they have to RE-imprint proper techniques for the new bodies as they grow. Everything will follow as the physical body catches up! The ONE thing they can control is attitude. I will not put up with a bad attitude!

rtodd
October 31st, 2013, 10:08 PM
Focus on technique. Make it pretty I say. I am more impressed with a slower time but good technique than the fast thrash I see from stronger kids with inferior technique. This focus on technique is in this age group up to 11 or so for girls. Then hopefully they enter the sensitive period for endurance training when there is far less time for a coach to spend fixing technique.

astro
March 18th, 2014, 06:29 AM
Decided to post this here instead of a new thread:

My daughter is now 10 and continues to swim with her team 5 days a week, each around 2400meter. They're about 18 kids so its nothing like one on one private lessons. Her times are improving (50FR 37, 50FL 39, 50BK 41, 50BR 44) but I doubt her technique is.. and everyone around me keeps telling about the importance of technique development at this age.

A coach that I've known long before has the equipment and software to do swimming analysis. He suggests that we analyze her to improve her styles. Then he adds that according to those results, he will suggest particular drills for her and she has to do them for improvement. However, I don't think her current coach will be interested about an analysis or particular drills...

What would you suggest? Should I have him to do the analysis? Then how can I take care of the rest? Several private lessons? Or is it too early at this age..? Thanks!

Rob Copeland
March 18th, 2014, 09:50 AM
Whatever you decide my strongest piece of advice is to talk it over with her coach first.

Next, is your daughter unhappy with her team or dissatisfied with her progress? Or is this more about you wishing her to improve?

Also, “I don't think her current coach will be interested about an analysis or particular drills” is a red flag. One of the worst situations is to have 2 different coaches giving different direction to the swimmer. If you go ahead with the analysis one key to success will be for the 2 coaches to get together and come to a consensus on a single training plan; which may or may not include private lessons.

It is never too early or too late to improve technique. However, this is more a function of the student rather than the teacher.

aquageek
March 18th, 2014, 02:27 PM
5 days a week @ 2400 meters seems about right for a 10 year old, although I'm not sure why you count the yardage. Point is not sure if it is a good idea to squeeze an extra day in for a kid so young.

Private coaching, as Rob says, is very difficult. What if the private coach suggests totally different items? How does the full time coach incorporate that without showing favoritism to your daughter? And, what happens if the private suggestions don't mesh with the team philosophy? What is your plan for that, quit the team or disrupt the team?

I've seen a lot of parents, and it is about the parents, not the kid, force their kids into off-day privates. I can't say I've ever seen much benefit of this. The only way it works is if the head coach and the private coach are in lock step. Even then, I'm not convinced of the value.

I do agree that kids that age need to be overfed technique. I would say we do 50% per practice of technique and that includes 30 minutes a day of turns, 5 days a week.

astro
March 19th, 2014, 05:35 AM
Yes, she is very happy with her team but dissatisfied with her progress lately. I think it's all about her comparing times with her friends. She just wants to get better, "she" talks to me about it. She is aware that it is al about the technique and I'm trying to be there to help her. I tell her that somethings are about time, and she will get better and better. Telling her to pay attention to what coach says. Regarding yardage, I never counted it :) This info was given by her coach.


As I hear from other parents, her coach is against private lessons. Some asked and got refused. In contrary to that, some are taking private lessons, especially those in B team to get in to A team and some of those in A team with her, to get in the relay team.. :) Some began to wear arena carbons etc at this age, even in the club competitions, it is so unbelievable!!


To make it clear; proposed thing is swimming analysis, not private lessons. And I understand that you are not against a swimming analysis at this age.


I can have her analyzed and could give the results and videos to her coach. And just leave it like that. I just don't want to interfere with his coaching at all. But if I have her analyzed, that is already interfering :)

Don't know what to do... I think if he had the time and resources he would like to see all his students from underwater and correct their mistakes one by one...

Rob Copeland
March 19th, 2014, 09:31 AM
The thing with stroke analysis and adjustment is unless there is very frequent reinforcement most of the lessons are lost. I could spend an entire practice working on flip turns and streamlines and if I don’t reinforce the lessons it will take less than 2 weeks for everyone to fall back on prior habits.

But, the first thing to do is schedule a meeting with the coach. Lay out your daughter’s dissatisfaction with her progress and your thoughts on outside help. Ask the coach for suggestions.

If the coach is against private lessons or incorporating corrective drills, then it seems your daughter has 2 alternatives; 1 – leave the team she is very happy with in pursuit of a team that will help her achieve swimming goals, or 2 – stay with her team and realign her goals with more realistic expectations.

astro
March 19th, 2014, 09:43 AM
The thing with stroke analysis and adjustment is unless there is very frequent reinforcement most of the lessons are lost. I could spend an entire practice working on flip turns and streamlines and if I don’t reinforce the lessons it will take less than 2 weeks for everyone to fall back on prior habits.

But, the first thing to do is schedule a meeting with the coach. Lay out your daughter’s dissatisfaction with her progress and your thoughts on outside help. Ask the coach for suggestions.

If the coach is against private lessons or incorporating corrective drills, then it seems your daughter has 2 alternatives; 1 – leave the team she is very happy with in pursuit of a team that will help her achieve swimming goals, or 2 – stay with her team and realign her goals with more realistic expectations.

Thanks for the excellent feedback. I will ask her, If she agrees we 'll talk to her coach.

smontanaro
March 19th, 2014, 10:04 AM
The thing with stroke analysis and adjustment is unless there is very frequent reinforcement most of the lessons are lost. I could spend an entire practice working on flip turns and streamlines and if I don’t reinforce the lessons it will take less than 2 weeks for everyone to fall back on prior habits.

Amen to that. I can tell from personal experience that it doesn't just apply to nine-year-olds as well. :)

ande
March 20th, 2014, 11:15 AM
Decided to post this here instead of a new thread:
My daughter is now 10 and continues to swim with her team 5 days a week, each around 2400meter. They're about 18 kids so its nothing like one on one private lessons. Her times are improving (50FR 37, 50FL 39, 50BK 41, 50BR 44) but I doubt her technique is.. and everyone around me keeps telling about the importance of technique development at this age.
A coach that I've known long before has the equipment and software to do swimming analysis. He suggests that we analyze her to improve her styles. Then he adds that according to those results, he will suggest particular drills for her and she has to do them for improvement. However, I don't think her current coach will be interested about an analysis or particular drills...
What would you suggest? Should I have him to do the analysis? Then how can I take care of the rest? Several private lessons? Or is it too early at this age..? Thanks!

Ask her coach

Ask her

Remember the principle
"Nobody ever changes anything unless they
want to change
decide to change and
they keep concentrating and doing the replacement habit until they do change."

I wrote a SFF Tip on Improving technique and changing habits called
GRIND IT IN (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?4229-Ande-s-Swimming-Tips-Swimming-Faster-Faster&p=196569#post196569)

You could also send her to a week of swim camp like Longhorn Swim Camp (http://www.longhornswimcamp.com/)
Kids swim 3 times a day and 1 of the daily sessions is entirely dedicated to stroke improvement.
If she wants to swim faster, it wouldn't hurt her to swim 6x per week and go further and faster in each practice.

How does the next higher group in her team train?
What is the criteria to make it?

Also determine, maybe from talking with her coach 1st, (with out her and maybe even with out her knowing) if the suggestion to improve her technique with private technique lessons and analysis, should come from you or her coach, if you decide to pursue it. Video analysis is helpful because she can see what she is doing and get an idea of what she needs to do. (Same reason dance studio walls tend to be mirrors) The goals are for her to have fun, swim faster (which is fun) and for her to care more about her swimming than you do.

aquageek
March 20th, 2014, 02:32 PM
I think the key in all of this is that she is 9. Between 9 - 13 in girls the swimming is all over the place. The girls that mature early are usually the fastest. Wait til they hit 13/14. The younger ones who aren't as fast but work on technique seem to come out ahead in the long run. Then, everything I just said, will happen in reverse. The point is I see so many parents get all crazed by 10/under swimming, which is about as predictable as the stock market. In my opinion, being fast at 9/10 is a barometer of nothing in the long run of swimming.

We do a lot of video analysis. It is simple and reinforces what we do in drills and workouts, same terms, same ideology. Having an Endless Pool really helps also at the club.

hlopez84
March 21st, 2014, 09:07 AM
At 9yo the focus of swimming should be about fun, good technique and good habits in the pool. Particularly with young swimmer the focus should be on building a solid foundation. A good swimming foundation leads to speed in the teenage and young adult years.

bvfrompc
March 21st, 2014, 04:49 PM
Will the coach give privates? During the summer season our daughter (and her older brother) each have a 45 minute private with the head coach, this is in addition to the 5 morning practices and one or two dual meets each weekend. This is only for two months so they don't seem burnt out by it but they do get a lot out of the sessions. Daughter just asked the other day if she will "get" to swim with her coach again this summer, so she does like the one on one time. I think she appreciates the focus that you can't get 6 deep across 6 lanes.

I figure if it's him doing the one on ones, he will be reinforcing what he wants her to work on the rest of the time and have some perosnal investment in it as well.

During her brief stint in year-round swimming this winter (different team) she told me she was often called out to show her teamates how to start, turn, streamline and such so she must have something working right.

robertsrobson
March 24th, 2014, 09:50 AM
I think it's all about her comparing times with her friends.

There we have it. It's crucial that you help her to develop a motivation and confidence that is based on how well she is improving, and how well she is applying herself, rather than comparison to others. It's irrelevant, and if she can understand that, she will be better for it in the long and short term. At that age, as has already been said, rate of physical development is so variable (and influential) and it can help to talk about this with your child. With few exceptions, the best of the best ultimately judge themselves against their own standards and not those of others - no matter how badly they want to win.

astro
October 1st, 2014, 09:05 AM
Hi,


Just realized I didn't post feedback, sorry. We didn't go for the swimming analysis. We thought it would be a waste of time and resources as it was not be possible to have her swim the corrective drills.


It's been a month now that they started to swim 6 days a week and coach tells that they swim around 14 miles a week. It will last 10 months like this and they will have 1 month rest in summer.


I've read this article:
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/3-reasons-to-give-young-swimmers-a-rest/


Mind that she's 10.5 yo right now, do you guys think the above is too much for her?


(Her SC times are: 50m FR 34; 100m FR 1:20; 200m FR 2:47; 50m BK 40; 50m BR 44; 100m BR 1:37; 50m FL 39; 100m IM 1:25; 200m IM 3:06)

Gary P
October 1st, 2014, 12:15 PM
Looking at those times, I see quite a bit of progression in a year and a half so she should have a strong sense of achievement!

I've personally come around to the "quality yardage matters more than total yardage" camp. But, unless you want to take over coaching the team, you kinda have to go with what's offered. 4000 yards a day, 6 days a week is not too much for a dedicated 10 year old, in my opinion; I did more than that at that age.

If you're concerned about physical and/or mental burn out, pull her from one practice a week. You risk the coach holding that against her, however, when it comes time to fill in a meet roster.

Swimspire
October 4th, 2014, 01:58 PM
Thanks for the update on your daughter's progress, astro! I wouldn't completely abandon the idea of getting a private stroke analysis or lessons just yet, however. Even if your daughter would not be able to practice the drills she will learn during her team workouts, there is still the potential for her to improve with even just one private session per week...with the right coach, of course. At 10-11 years old, swimmers can still absorb new technique without requiring a tremendous amount of repetitive effort.

In looking at the times progression that you submitted, you can see that your daughter hasn't dropped as much time in the butterfly as she has in the other three strokes. Butterfly is all about timing, and in this case her timing might be off, which points to technique-related issues that she can work on outside of the team-based practices. I wrote a piece on why swimmers should get their stroke analyzed, and I think the advice in the article holds true for swimmers of all ages: www.swimspire.com/get-stroke-technique-analyzed/ (http://www.swimspire.com/get-stroke-technique-analyzed/)

Now is the time for your daughter to build a good technique. Later, she will continue to increase the speed and interval work and if she builds up a solid technical foundation at this age, she will have less of a risk of injuries and more of a chance of making swimming a life-long sport.

Good luck!

hlopez84
October 6th, 2014, 09:56 AM
Now is the time for your daughter to build a good technique. Later, she will continue to increase the speed and interval work and if she builds up a solid technical foundation at this age, she will have less of a risk of injuries and more of a chance of making swimming a life-long sport.

Good luck!

You hit the nail right on the head!

rtodd
October 6th, 2014, 03:57 PM
4000 a day, 6 days a week is absurd for a 10 year old.

smontanaro
October 6th, 2014, 04:04 PM
4000 a day, 6 days a week is absurd for a 10 year old.

I would argue it's absurd for many people, myself included. The only thing it would do is feather my orthopedic surgeon's nest.

astro
October 10th, 2014, 09:37 AM
Thanks for the feedbacks.


There's no complaint whatsoever from her, I just wanted to know your thoughts on it. Not considering to pull her a day from practice. She has lots of energy to play ball etc with her friends after training sessions.


However, I do agree that it's much, if it's gotta be all about technique at this age.


Her times will drop further with the current program for sure. I just can hope improved technique to be a major part of it.


Swimspire; I agree with you about her butterfly. Back in Apr'13 it was 50secs, in Oct'13 it was 41 ! It was all about timing and technique. Now it's 39, so, not much of an improvement last year. Technique not improving? Most probably. Was watching their session a week ago, I've seen coach instructing her one-on-one how to extend arm stroke forward during butterfly. She still has a lot to improve, will always have!


I didn't abandon the idea of swimming analysis. I think it would be an awesome opportunity to see and get things better. Besides all, it would be fun for her, for us. :) However, it's not gonna be me who is going to evaluate the results. Gotta be a swim coach, the right one. Then private sessions gonna be needed for corrective drills, which she has no time for. If it would work out without corrective drills, showing this and that while watching the videos, then I would do it tomorrow.

astro
October 19th, 2014, 04:25 PM
Wanted to put feedback on progress with the above mentioned program. There was a meet this weekend and improved times are: 100m FR 1:14 ; 100m BR 1:34 ; 100m BK 1:28 ; 200m IM 2:59 ; 100m FL 1:29

I've noticed that her streamlines were much better then before..

geochuck
October 19th, 2014, 06:26 PM
Is she doing fishtailing. It can interfere with strealine.

astro
October 20th, 2014, 01:26 AM
Nope. She doesn't do that.
Is she doing fishtailing. It can interfere with strealine.

astro
October 21st, 2014, 08:27 AM
By streamline above, i mean her streamlined underwater btw.
Nope. She doesn't do that.

dt28
October 21st, 2014, 01:08 PM
Astro

My name is Darian Townsend, I am an Olympic Gold Medalist and professional swimmer, currently training for the 2016 Olympics. I have also been coaching for the last 8 years.

Your question intrigued me because I struggled with this issue for many years throughout my career. I am more of a 100 and 200 swimmer, but the issue was the same. I would be ahead of my competitors for most of the race and then they would pass me right at the end. It was very frustrating and it lead to many unhappy feelings towards the sport. It wasn't till I decided, after a particularly frustrating meet, that I wasn't going to be the "rabbit" anymore. What I mean by that is, that the other swimmers were using my fast pace at the beginning of the race to set their pace. Basically I was using all my energy in trying to get away and they were simply just pacing off me using less energy. I decided if I was going to carry on swimming, I wasn't going to be the pace setter. But to avoid not being the pace setter I had to learn how to swim from behind and more importantly get comfortable not always swimming from the front. This skill is learnt in practice!!!! She has to train the way she wants to race.

"How can we help her to build up her endurance?"

This can be done in many ways. Being that she is so young, training more is not the only option. As she gets older she will be able to handle more training, but right now it's important that she grows to love the sport and not dread going to practice.
Before giving her too much advise, I would meet with her coach to discuss your concerns. There is no point her receiving 2 different forms of advise from you and her coach. This will only confuse her. I would suggest to her coach that she starts to learn how to race her competitors, instead of blowing them away on the first 25. In her next race she should focus on reserving energy for the finish and having her race the kids into the wall instead of trying to hang on. This is a much more fun way to swim any race. When you are pulling away from someone or catching them towards the end of a race, you get an energy surge and it's amazing how fast you can finish when this happens!!!

"What should we have her eat before the meet? Should we take her out for jogging, hiking, biking or any other physical activity? All suggestions and hints are appreciated."

I think doing other activities as part of her training at that age is really important. Swimming is a very unique sport in that we compete in a very different world to the one we live our lives in every day. I'm referring to the water here. Developing "land skills" is very important for later on in our lives as swimmers and as regular humans :)
Biking is a form of cross training that really helped me develop my leg strength and as a result my kick has always been a strength of mine throughout my career. It is also non impact so their is very little stress it puts on any joints that could lead to injury.

Before a meet you want to eat foods that are light and won't cause a heavy, full feeling. It all depends on how much time you have before you race or train. Oats are a great source of energy, granola bars, bagels, fruit, chicken, etc. Just make sure she is eating some sort of protein with her every meal!

Hope this information helps!
Contact me through my website is you have any other questions :)

astro
October 22nd, 2014, 04:53 AM
Hello Darian,


Thanks for dropping by and writing feedback on this.


Endurance/pacing:
She keeps learning in time what the pacing is. She gets better and better. Her split in 100m FR 1:14 was 36/38. Mind that she can probably swim 50m FR in 33secs now.


Activity:
She's biking in summer but other then that it's quite hard to find time (swimming+school/homeworks) and good weather combined.


Eating/drinking before a meet:
I think drinking plenty of water and keeping the body hydrated well is also important. Just not before or during the meet but as a lifestyle.


But hey, ssshh, Lochte may be here reading your tactics too :)


Wish you the very best of luck for Rio!


Astro

My name is Darian Townsend, I am an Olympic Gold Medalist and professional swimmer, currently training for the 2016 Olympics. I have also been coaching for the last 8 years.

Your question intrigued me because I struggled with this issue for many years throughout my career. I am more of a 100 and 200 swimmer, but the issue was the same. I would be ahead of my competitors for most of the race and then they would pass me right at the end. It was very frustrating and it lead to many unhappy feelings towards the sport. It wasn't till I decided, after a particularly frustrating meet, that I wasn't going to be the "rabbit" anymore. What I mean by that is, that the other swimmers were using my fast pace at the beginning of the race to set their pace. Basically I was using all my energy in trying to get away and they were simply just pacing off me using less energy. I decided if I was going to carry on swimming, I wasn't going to be the pace setter. But to avoid not being the pace setter I had to learn how to swim from behind and more importantly get comfortable not always swimming from the front. This skill is learnt in practice!!!! She has to train the way she wants to race.

"How can we help her to build up her endurance?"

This can be done in many ways. Being that she is so young, training more is not the only option. As she gets older she will be able to handle more training, but right now it's important that she grows to love the sport and not dread going to practice.
Before giving her too much advise, I would meet with her coach to discuss your concerns. There is no point her receiving 2 different forms of advise from you and her coach. This will only confuse her. I would suggest to her coach that she starts to learn how to race her competitors, instead of blowing them away on the first 25. In her next race she should focus on reserving energy for the finish and having her race the kids into the wall instead of trying to hang on. This is a much more fun way to swim any race. When you are pulling away from someone or catching them towards the end of a race, you get an energy surge and it's amazing how fast you can finish when this happens!!!

"What should we have her eat before the meet? Should we take her out for jogging, hiking, biking or any other physical activity? All suggestions and hints are appreciated."

I think doing other activities as part of her training at that age is really important. Swimming is a very unique sport in that we compete in a very different world to the one we live our lives in every day. I'm referring to the water here. Developing "land skills" is very important for later on in our lives as swimmers and as regular humans :)
Biking is a form of cross training that really helped me develop my leg strength and as a result my kick has always been a strength of mine throughout my career. It is also non impact so their is very little stress it puts on any joints that could lead to injury.

Before a meet you want to eat foods that are light and won't cause a heavy, full feeling. It all depends on how much time you have before you race or train. Oats are a great source of energy, granola bars, bagels, fruit, chicken, etc. Just make sure she is eating some sort of protein with her every meal!

Hope this information helps!
Contact me through my website is you have any other questions :)

dt28
October 22nd, 2014, 12:39 PM
Haha, no problem! Message me with any questions you have :) And yes lets not let Lochte in on too many secrets!

astro
December 17th, 2014, 07:05 AM
Hi,
She participated in a meet last week and the times are:
100m FR 1:10 ; 100m FL 1:23 ; 200m IM 2:51 ; 400m FR 5:20


Regarding pacing, her splits were:
100m FR: 15.7/17.6/18.6/18.5
100m FL: 17.0/20.9/21.9/23.2
200m IM: 16.3/20.3/21.8/21.4/25.5/25.4/20.8/19.8
400m FR:
17.0/20.1/20.0/20.6
19.8/20.6/20.3/21.3
19.7/20.5/20.7/20.0
19.8/20.7/20.2/19.0

Kinda surprised to see how she improved her times that much in so little time..

astro
March 14th, 2015, 01:40 AM
Hi,

Wanted to put feedback on times with the 4000m / 6 days program I mentioned above..

(SCM)
100M FR 1:08
100M FL 1:17
200M IM 2:47
200M FR 2:31
50M FR 31.6

Sojerz
March 14th, 2015, 03:22 PM
Those are great times for a 10.5 yr old, her splits look great, and she should be proud. 4000m per day for 6 days per week is an enormous amount of yardage. Hopefully much of the yards are working on technique. Don't burn her shoulders up and don't burn her out - make sure it's fun. Speed can be developed quickly as she matures, provided she has good technique.

Instruction from two different directions can be very hard for a kid to process at a young age.

Gary P
March 14th, 2015, 05:32 PM
Hi,

Wanted to put feedback on times with the 4000m / 6 days program I mentioned above..

(SCM)
100M FR 1:08
100M FL 1:17
200M IM 2:47
200M FR 2:31
50M FR 31.6

She's 10, not 15, right? Those are all "AAA" times, bordering on "AAAA," for the 10 & under age group. She would have embarrassed a lot of grown men at the last Masters meet I swam at. Whatever the coach is doing, it seems to be working. Is she still enjoying swimming? Has the rest of the team progressed as much?

astro
March 22nd, 2015, 03:55 AM
Sorry for my late response.

She's 11 now and actually enjoys more and more as she gets these results.

And yes, rest of the team also progressed, though cant say if its that much. She's probably among the ones who progressed the best.. maybe it was their technique that helped or their endurance developed.. probably both..

I do hope that much of the yardage is working on technique too, but dont have a clue on that..

astro
July 28th, 2015, 06:05 AM
Hi, wanted to put feedback on this.. She is 11.5yo now and the latest times are:

SCM
50FR 30.5
100FR 1:06
50FL 33.8
100FL 1:13
200IM 2:43
200FR 2:26

Seems the endurance and pacing keeps improving over time...

Varna01
July 29th, 2015, 03:58 AM
These are great times for her age. I have two girls (8,5 and 14 now), so I also kinda interested to see your girl's progress. The most important thing for her is not to lose the technique. Endurance shall increase even more during the time.

aquageek
July 29th, 2015, 07:14 AM
Is this now the parent's humblebrag forum? If so, can Jim Corbeau please speak up cause his kid is a swimming superstar.

Rob Copeland
July 29th, 2015, 02:01 PM
When hasn’t this been a parents/coach brag forum? If we can’t brag on about the accomplishments of our fellow swimmers, what will we talk about? And yes, sometimes the swimmers are ourselves and sometimes they are a family member.

Did I mention that I counted for my mom at Short Course Nationals this year? :banana: But that should be under the Building up endurance – 85+ year old kid thread:groovy:

Bill Sive
July 29th, 2015, 05:24 PM
I sometimes swim with a Youth Team during their workouts. The young swimmers in this age group only swim for one hour. No, distance, except for LCM season, and then its no more than a 200 at a time. Most of the workouts are pretty evenly split between sprints and drills.

astro
July 30th, 2015, 01:51 AM
Forgot to mention that the distance been dropped to 3500meters as of April. The last 4 months. Still 6days per week. Drills, 100s 200s, sprints.. It takes around 60-75mins in water and 30mins of dryland 4 times a week. Now they re on holiday and will start again by September.

And sorry if it looks like im bragging.. I'm trying to learn as much as possible and inform as much as I can.. ;)

gobears
July 30th, 2015, 09:32 AM
astro - maybe you've answered this already - but, do you swim? Much more rewarding to keep track of your own yardage and best times, IMO...

astro
July 31st, 2015, 08:47 AM
No, not in that way. Thanks for your opinion.
astro - maybe you've answered this already - but, do you swim? Much more rewarding to keep track of your own yardage and best times, IMO...

astro
July 31st, 2015, 09:03 AM
Missed to reply to your message sorry. Thanks for the interest and I'm also interested to know about the yardage/days of your girls and their progresses.
These are great times for her age. I have two girls (8,5 and 14 now), so I also kinda interested to see your girl's progress. The most important thing for her is not to lose the technique. Endurance shall increase even more during the time.

Varna01
August 3rd, 2015, 10:39 PM
Missed to reply to your message sorry. Thanks for the interest and I'm also interested to know about the yardage/days of your girls and their progresses.

Hi, My younger daughter made last June in LCM: 37.54 (50 FR); 40.13 (50 FLY) 39.88 (50 Back); 45.58 (50 BR) and 03:01.85 (200 FR). My elder daughter's time in LCM are 28.52 (50 FR); 1:02.92 (100 FR relays); 36.89 (50 BR); 1:20.46 (100 BR); 30.41 (50 FLY);

My younger daughter is making above times for the last 6-8 months (no progress), but I must admit that she is doing so without any hard efforts. For the last 6 months I'd say that she barely swims 2-2,5 km a day (and instead of 6 days a week as she used to before and well over 3,5 km a days, she now swims only 3-4 days a week). But since her times are okay and I want her to have fun, I let her do whatever she wants with her training schedule.
Unlike my younger daughter, my elder one needs to put a lot of efforts as obviously this is not her thing (despite that timings are okay so far), but she is determined to achieve better results (especially she is discouraged when she sees that her younger sister outswims her competition without any effort and hard work prior the competition). She swims 5 days a week (5 km approx. per session) and she does other sports to gain benefits for her swimming. So sometimes I try to cut her training time, cause after all, summer is outside.. and I try to explain her that she needs to put more effort due her father's (my) mistake to work on her stroke and swimming while she was 10 (she started to swim at 9,5), 11 and 12 (we lost those years, cause I let her swim in a club with a very poor coach).
Just less than half a year ago I was the "pushiest" parent, but then I've identified that this is wrong approach. Now I only provide advise for her technique, bought a membership card for local wellness center (so she can relax at the end of the week), drink my cider while watching her swim and smile even when she does something wrong.
Recently former Olympian (2008 and 2012 Olympics) started to work for one of the local clubs as a coach. I do not know if this is temporary or permanent thing (as far as I know - temporary, but I hope to be wrong), but I intend to ask him to give my both daughters some technique wise /morale wise /attitude wise sort of advises (paid private lessons) that could become a push which comes from the outside. But I'm not sure if he shall agree or not.
So my advise to you is to keep working on the technique (constantly without days off) and to keep modest yardage per session, cause yardage does matter after age of 13-14 when she will need endurance.

GGS5T
August 4th, 2015, 06:22 AM
At the age of 9 she's still a baby. there's no hurry. All will come right in the end. You are likely to have another ten years, at least, in swimming. Just encorage as much as you can and enjoy the journey together.

aquageek
August 4th, 2015, 08:48 AM
Doesn't usaswimming.org have a forum for parents to brag about their kids?

Varna01
August 4th, 2015, 09:48 AM
At the age of 9 she's still a baby. there's no hurry. All will come right in the end. You are likely to have another ten years, at least, in swimming. Just encorage as much as you can and enjoy the journey together.

Easy to say, but sometimes hard to do... (at least it was hard for me). Also one sad thing that I often notice is that most of the talented kids at their early ages do not develop further and get lost over the years. So I do agree "no pushing" till they realize themselves what they wanna do.

Varna01
August 4th, 2015, 09:50 AM
Doesn't usaswimming.org have a forum for parents to brag about their kids?

Unfortunately no. There is no specific forum for swimparents to "brag about their kids", so I suppose that is the reason why it is on General Swimming Discussions section. But it would be a good idea to make a separate section for such weird people like us. And its not so much about bragging, but to share experience how to be less weird and not to projectile our own hopes and wishes over the kids.

gobears
August 4th, 2015, 10:23 AM
Doesn't usaswimming.org have a forum for parents to brag about their kids?

I get it if the people talking about their kids are masters swimmers themselves. Otherwise, it sounds like non-swimmer parents trying to micromanage their swimmers' USAS experiences. On a masters swimming forum...

aquageek
August 4th, 2015, 11:34 AM
Easy to say, but sometimes hard to do... (at least it was hard for me). Also one sad thing that I often notice is that most of the talented kids at their early ages do not develop further and get lost over the years. So I do agree "no pushing" till they realize themselves what they wanna do.

USA Swimming offers many articles and features on how to not be a crazy parent. I would also refer you to Swimming World and swimswam.com, both good sources of effective swim parenting.

If I wanted to talk about age group parenting I would simply go to any one of the 50+ kid meets I attend annually. There I can hear all about all the 9 year old Olympians for hours on end.

astro
September 30th, 2015, 05:20 AM
Hi,


Started this thread in 2013 to get ideas on how to improve 9yo's endurance and what to feed her etc. I've got the best answers from you guys.


Then post after post, it was about training sets per week and times as I was interested to know if she's on the right path and what other clubs/coaches do.


I'm trying to share as well as try to understand what others do in different age groups and what are the results.


Sorry to bother those are not interested.

gobears
September 30th, 2015, 08:19 AM
I'm not sure if you realize that United States Masters Swimming is the governing body for swimmers 18 and over. People on this site are usually adult swimmers themselves - some who have been swimming since childhood, many who started as adults. Though some here know about USAS, this is probably not the ideal place to discuss being the parent of a USAS swimmer. Some of us who swam as kids aren't big fans of parents seeming to live vicariously through their kids' athletic endeavors. The best parents are supportive but let their kids own their own swimming experience. No fun when mom or dad is telling you or the coaches what to do. Especially when that parent has little to no swimming knowledge. You may or may not think this applies to you - but it may explain some of the responses you are getting.

astro
October 1st, 2015, 08:43 AM
Thanks for explaining. Getting advise from masters was what I needed. Cause in the end, you guys in general see the big picture better then anyone else I think. Though I thought many here were USAS swimmers before, maybe I was wrong.

I got advises on this topic before not to interfere, not to coach, which I follow strictly.

It's not my intention to brag about my kid or competing times here...

When you're a swimmer parent, you feel kinda comfortable when a master tells you the swimmer looks to be on the right path. Like, if majority tells me 6x4000m per week for 11yo is too much , then that would ring alarm bells on my side maybe to seek for another club or coach..

Hope this explains my point of view.

gobears
October 1st, 2015, 09:28 AM
It does. Glad you found some help. Just FYI - the term "Master" here means nothing besides "over 18." The term doesn't mean that members have reached the pinnacle of the sport (though, arguably, there are a few USMS athletes who fit that description). There are some here who do have a lot of experience both as swimmers and as coaches. Some of us probably have hypersensitive "pushy-parent" detectors because we've seen (or maybe experienced) those parents along our swimming journeys.

I'm glad you are looking out for the best interests of your child. In my experience as a swimmer, a coach and a parent of swimmers, I would say that your kids need to see you as their cheerleader (encouraging them, loving them and supporting them). Let them own their sport. Let them own their successes and their failures. Let them make their own mistakes and learn from them. Swimming can be such a fantastic avenue for learning to win, lose, work your tail off, set long term goals, push yourself past your comfort zone and so much more. But if swimmers have a parent constantly taking charge they won't own those things and won't really learn from them, IMO.

astro
October 1st, 2015, 10:56 AM
Thanks so much. I get what you mean and very much appreciate your feedback. :)

gobears
October 1st, 2015, 11:02 AM
Thanks so much. I get what you mean and very much appreciate your feedback. :)

You're welcome. Now we just need to get you to join us in the water ;-)

Paul Smith
October 2nd, 2015, 03:00 PM
Some of my favorite quotes related to this:
- 6 most important words a swim parent should use "I love to watch you swim". Take away, reduce pressure and expectations early on and validate that the athlete is loved and your there for them regardless of how they or the kids around them are doing

- "no one ever remembers the fastest 12 year old". Take away, as many have already said here just focus on falling in love with the sport at this age, everything else will fall into place if the coach/team has a long term development strategy

- Teri McKeever said of Missy Franklin when she first saw her swim at a very young age something to the effect of "if she can ever get all of that moving in the right direction look out". Take away is coaches can preach and train technique based workouts all day long but some kids just take longer to dial everything in

Last thing, every single study in the last 10 years on injuries of young athletes has pointed to early specialization as most likely the leading cause. Play other sports, take breaks, don't rush development of kids 12 and under!