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inge clark
August 4th, 2013, 08:23 PM
Any competitive sprinters out there try Total Immersion? Curious about results for sprinters vs typical long distance target.:worms:

pwb
August 4th, 2013, 10:34 PM
I believe in it. Whenever I get private coaching from my favorite TI coach, my times improve, sometimes dramatically. As for sprinting, I swam my best 100 and 200 free efforts when I was working fairly consistently with a TI coach for technique.

sunruh
August 5th, 2013, 11:31 AM
um...when i go underwater aren't i "totally immersed"?

somehow i dont think i am understanding your term vs my term on TI.

and therefore what the heck is a TI coach?

pwb
August 5th, 2013, 11:37 AM
um...when i go underwater aren't i "totally immersed"?

somehow i dont think i am understanding your term vs my term on TI.

and therefore what the heck is a TI coach?www.totalimmersion.net

thewookiee
August 5th, 2013, 12:12 PM
Any competitive sprinters out there try Total Immersion? Curious about results for sprinters vs typical long distance target.:worms:

Depends on the coach. There are a few TI coaches that work with competitive swimmers. Anne Wilson, the one that works with PWB is one of the very best TI coaches and swim coach period.

A number of the coaches come from a triathlete background. They have a bit of a different focus than what competitive pool swimmers do.

I know a large number of the TI coaches. There are very few that I would let coach me or tinker with my strokes. If you have a particular one in mind, send me a pm if you have a certain coach in mind.

The Fortress
August 5th, 2013, 01:11 PM
There are very few that I would let coach or tinker with my strokes.

Yes!

TI has virtually nothing to do with sprinting.

thewookiee
August 5th, 2013, 02:19 PM
Yes!

TI has virtually nothing to do with sprinting.

I wouldn't say that is 100% accurate. There are a few coaches that can train sprinters, as well as mid-distance to distance and stroke folks. Just most of them focus on tri swimming or more fitness minded swimmer.

The Fortress
August 5th, 2013, 02:30 PM
I wouldn't say that is 100% accurate. There are a few coaches that can train sprinters, as well as mid-distance to distance and stroke folks. Just most of them focus on tri swimming or more fitness minded swimmer.

That's why I said "virtually." Most of the TI teachings, however, are contrary to what sprinters should focus on.

Chris Stevenson
August 5th, 2013, 02:45 PM
Most of the TI teachings, however, are contrary to what sprinters should focus on.

I have no dog in this fight and don't really know all that much about TI (arguably not much about sprinting either). But I did find the following discussion along these lines:

http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2806

pwb
August 5th, 2013, 06:03 PM
That's why I said "virtually." Most of the TI teachings, however, are contrary to what sprinters should focus on.Possibly, but the genesis of TI started with training Terry Laughlin did with sprinters at West Point and they saw dramatic time drops.

As wookie said, though, you have to pick your TI coach wisely (well, actually, any coach).

GregJS
August 6th, 2013, 12:13 PM
TI helped me learn about things like balance, efficiency, drag reduction/streamlining, core rotation - all that kind of stuff that I knew nothing about. But if you feel like you already have good form, and now just want to add speed, you might not get much out of TI. But if you feel like you need to start with the basics, TI could be very helpful. Not much point trying to make an inefficient vessel go faster. At least that is the TI approach, as I understand it, and it makes a good bit of sense.

evmo
August 6th, 2013, 12:15 PM
Good technique is good technique is good technique. Some coaches teach it well; others don't. Whether they are a "TI coach" is really more of a business decision than any indicator about coaching ability or swimming knowledge. I would say that the qualifications for becoming a "TI coach" are fairly laughable.

evmo
August 6th, 2013, 12:20 PM
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?19320-Total-Immersion-origins-theory

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?5699-What-do-you-think-of-total-immersion

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?18806-Stroke-Rate-amp-Stroke-Length-in-OW

SolarEnergy
August 6th, 2013, 03:25 PM
Any competitive sprinters out there try Total Immersion? Curious about results for sprinters vs typical long distance target.:worms:
Most well organized training/coaching/teaching systems do work well, given that you can suck all the good out of it, leaving away what you don't need. TI is strong at teaching balance/streamline.

Now to answer your question more specifically, none of the major players address sprinting specifically (SwimSmooth, TI), so you still need Ande here on USMS for tips on sprinter faster, faster.

Bobinator
August 9th, 2013, 06:13 PM
I attended a TI seminar a few years ago and was lucky enough to have Terry Laughlin himself as my coach. I loved the clinic, Terry, and everything he taught me. I have so many bad habits I would need Terry 1-on-1 for a few months to have a TI type perfect stroke unfortunately. I am more of a miler, open-water type swimmer so I cannot comment on the "sprint" aspect of your question although Leslie's is a drop-dead sprinter and world record holder so I'd agree with whatever opinion she has.

Jazz Hands
August 11th, 2013, 05:09 PM
That's why I said "virtually." Most of the TI teachings, however, are contrary to what sprinters should focus on.

I like TI. For sprinting, it's not a total package (strength training, kick power...), but the ideas about posture, drag reduction, and grip are solid. I like to use a TI-esque freestyle drill progression when teaching.

Effectiveness of TI just depends on skill level. If someone has not spent time as a competitive swimmer, they probably need to figure out how to hold a line, which is very difficult at first. I used to spend a lot of time watching bad swimmers, when I was in the hot tub after my workouts. They all swim the same way: sagging hips, dropped elbows, wide flailing kick, too much head motion/elevation.

Here's a video of some dudes who probably think they are extremely "fit" and "intense" doing the same stuff you can see in any public lap swim session:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW8GN1oxNOA

__steve__
August 11th, 2013, 05:28 PM
lol

Allen Stark
August 11th, 2013, 06:28 PM
"That dive is the trademark of a swimmer"?????????????

MarkSki
August 11th, 2013, 08:04 PM
Hmmm. They look pretty fit and intense to me. Good thing they had some non-Masters folks encouraging them to swim.

Debugger
August 12th, 2013, 05:00 AM
Agree that TI has nothing common with sprinting - their motto is: How to swim longer without getting tired - which is more about long distance swimmers and triathlets. I watched their materials and read the book - no sprinting sets and drills there.
Some ideas and drills from TI might be useful though for sprinters during a period when they work on basic endurance.

__steve__
August 12th, 2013, 06:41 AM
Ever notice the cross fitters all have the same build? They look like gymnists

The Fortress
August 12th, 2013, 09:56 AM
I like TI. For sprinting, it's not a total package (strength training, kick power...), but the ideas about posture, drag reduction, and grip are solid. I like to use a TI-esque freestyle drill progression when teaching.


The ideas about posture, drag reduction and grip are all valid. But they are more generally related to swimming, not specifically to sprinting. I'm not using a two beat kick or catch up stroke or zipper drills for sprinting.

If you have poor technique, you have to go back to basics. No argument there.

Allen Stark
August 12th, 2013, 11:24 AM
One problem with saying TI is not good for sprinting is "Compared to what".As has been noted in this forum before,"traditional" training is not optimal for sprinting either.TI can give you basics about body position and relaxing etc.If one wants to sprint one can take that as a start and then evolve(with good coaching ) into a sprint type stroke.

Jazz Hands
August 12th, 2013, 03:50 PM
One problem with saying TI is not good for sprinting is "Compared to what".As has been noted in this forum before,"traditional" training is not optimal for sprinting either.TI can give you basics about body position and relaxing etc.If one wants to sprint one can take that as a start and then evolve(with good coaching ) into a sprint type stroke.

Exactly. This is why I like it. You throw a beginner in a pool (figuratively) and tell them to do 100x100, they are going to suck as a sprinter. If you give them 8x25, they are going to develop some power and sprint feel, but they will still have fundamental problems with efficiency.

I don't think anyone disagrees with that, even the anti-TI Fortress. We just need to meditate on the cliche that your training should suit your strengths and weaknesses.

poolraat
August 12th, 2013, 04:46 PM
Exactly. This is why I like it. You throw a beginner in a pool (figuratively) and tell them to do 100x100, they are going to suck as a sprinter. If you give them 8x25, they are going to develop some power and sprint feel, but they will still have fundamental problems with efficiency.

If it wasn't for TI, I may never have developed as a swimmer to the point where I am now. It taught me the basics and then with additional coaching and training I went from a slow distance swimmer to being able to sprint and be competitive. And you must remember that I had no competitive swimming experience prior to age 48 when I took up swimming as an exercise to lose weight.

Chris Stevenson
August 12th, 2013, 07:11 PM
I don't know much about TI but I thought it was about improving stroke technique/efficiency. Is that not true? It seems to me that, in this thread, there is some conflating between *techniques* that are suitable (or not) for sprinters to adopt, and *training* for sprints. This may also be what Jazz is getting at.

(See, for examples, references to "traditional training" and sprinters working on "basic endurance.")

Jazz Hands
August 13th, 2013, 09:35 AM
I don't know much about TI but I thought it was about improving stroke technique/efficiency. Is that not true? It seems to me that, in this thread, there is some conflating between *techniques* that are suitable (or not) for sprinters to adopt, and *training* for sprints. This may also be what Jazz is getting at.

(See, for examples, references to "traditional training" and sprinters working on "basic endurance.")

TI training is all based on the concept of practice. To me it seems like learning to play something on a musical instrument: you have to play it slowly before you can play it quickly. That's how you build procedural memory, and TI approaches swimming as a procedural memory problem to solve. So even if your goal is to sprint faster, and even if you're an experienced sprinter, you might still benefit from doing slower streamline drills, catch drills, whatever. I did this style of training a while ago and it worked OK for me, although at my skill level I got a lot more out of strength training. But then, why not both?

mcnair
August 19th, 2013, 06:43 PM
If it wasn't for TI, I may never have developed as a swimmer to the point where I am now. It taught me the basics and then with additional coaching and training I went from a slow distance swimmer to being able to sprint and be competitive. And you must remember that I had no competitive swimming experience prior to age 48 when I took up swimming as an exercise to lose weight.

I completely agree... TI was my starting point 9 or 10 summers ago. I could run a marathon, but was exhausted after 500 yards in the pool, so I picked up Terry Laughlin's book and used its principles to lay the foundation for my stroke... and I still remind myself with some of the drills from time to time. If your form won't hold together in a slow swim, it won't be their when you try to swim faster.

david.margrave
August 19th, 2013, 09:00 PM
crossfitters, bless them.

Debugger
August 21st, 2013, 03:50 PM
IMO there's kind of confusion in this thread. Personally I have nothing against the input made by TI into swimming development specially if we mention adults. Many principles taught are essential for all types of swimmers and they are a MUST for beginners if they want to develop good technique in future. But personally I don't believe TI is helpful in the development of the sprinting type of stroke and sprinting qualities such as explosive power and speed. Search in youtube and compare stroke of middle and long distance freestylers and freestylers who swim only 50 and 100. I'm sure you will find differences in their strokes.
Personally I swim 50, 100 and 200 breaststroke that's why my workouts have to include both types of training: sprinting with high explosive pace for short lengths as well as sets for endurance with long strokes and glide for longer lengths which is pretty close to what TI propagates. I need to combine both and not to forget about speed endurance as well because even 200 is rather sprint than long distance swimming.
I will rephrase my conclusion this way: you may use some TI ideas in the sprinters' swimming preparation but you cannot coach sprinters using TI only. Some things from TI might be even harmful for pure sprinters.

GregJS
August 21st, 2013, 05:37 PM
Maybe this analogy will make sense:

Some boats are made for long, slow journeys, others for speed. The two types of boats will look quite different; but they will also share at least a few principles of boat design.

Similarly, I think there are some things about TI swimming that will translate into any type of swimming (or even any type of movement, period), like coordinating your limbs from your core and engaging your core to help propulsion, reducing drag (even more important in sprinting than in slow swimming because drag forces grow exponentially w/ speed) and maintaining a balanced position in the water (not dragging your legs), and so on. But at the same time, there are some aspects of TI that are more for the slower-speed causal-fitness swimmer, like the slow stroke rate, long glide, and possibly the heavy emphasis on "front quadrant" stroke style. You'd probably want to drop or modify these when working on sprinting.

Overall, though, my sense is that TI provides a great base for general swimming skills. Feels good, too!

__steve__
August 22nd, 2013, 07:50 AM
Long Boat Myth (http://www.kudzucraft.com/articles/longboatmyth.php)
Interesting perspective on the boat length topic



Quickest Boats (http://forums.usms.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7876&d=1377171149)
This boat is built for acceleration


(http://forums.usms.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7876&d=1377171149)

JanSwim
August 22nd, 2013, 12:25 PM
Long Boat Myth (http://www.kudzucraft.com/articles/longboatmyth.php)
Interesting perspective on the boat length topic


Steve
great article! So a longer boat has a higher top speed, but takes more energy to go lower speeds than a comparable boat of shorter length.
What does that mean for swimming? How about nothing is as simple as it seems, maybe? I already didnt put too much stock in TIs emphasis on using a catch up stroke. Though there are a lot of things about TI that are great for a novice swimmer trying to improve efficiency.

GregJS
August 22nd, 2013, 12:25 PM
Interesting article that partially debunks the "longer is faster" notion. Although even according to this article, this principle does hold true at sprinting speeds.

Still, the "length of your vessel" issue is different in swimming from boat design in one important way: short of some macabre surgical procedures, none of us gets to choose our length. We're born with it. So our only choice is what to do with the length we've got. My guess is that for any individual's given length, they're faster (compared to themselves) when they are stretched out and keeping themselves long in the water. I can't back this up with any scientific studies, but it just seems that the only way to be less stretched out is to be somewhat floppier in the water, which seems like it would negatively impact resistance, hence speed.

Allen Stark
August 22nd, 2013, 12:56 PM
Long Boat Myth (http://www.kudzucraft.com/articles/longboatmyth.php)
Interesting perspective on the boat length topic



Quickest Boats (http://forums.usms.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7876&d=1377171149)
This boat is built for acceleration


(http://forums.usms.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=7876&d=1377171149)

As I understand it,for a swimmers "boat",form drag(the drag from our contact with the water) goes up at roughly the square of speed,whereas wave drag goes up at roughly the cube of speed. Form drag starts as the greater amount so is more important at lower speeds.One can minimize form drag by being as narrow and smooth as possible.One can minimize wave drag by being as long as possible,or eliminating it all together by being underwater(SDK).

ande
August 22nd, 2013, 01:48 PM
Any competitive sprinters out there try Total Immersion?
Curious about results for sprinters vs typical long distance target.:worms:

YES T.I. works
It helps swimmers swim with more ease and efficiency
I don't have any data to prove it. The recommendations just make sense and many are the same that I've recommended in
Swim Faster Faster (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?4229-Ande-s-Swimming-Tips-Swimming-Faster-Faster&p=276466#post276466)


Stuff Like:
1) keep your head neutral (look down at the bottom) which gives you higher hips
2) use a small kick, to stay balanced
3) move with ease
4) proper rotation

this covers the key ideas
Total Immersion: How I Learned to Swim Effortlessly in 10 Days and You Can Too (http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2008/08/13/total-immersion-how-i-learned-to-swim-effortlessly-in-10-days-and-you-can-too/)

The differences with TI sprinting vs distance is likely to be
+ faster turnover, (faster catch)
+more powerful pull
+ harder, faster more propulsive kick,
but the head position & bodyline are the same.

funkyfish
August 25th, 2013, 01:20 PM
crossfitters, bless them.
I wanted so bad to "like" this post... Alas, there was no like button.
:banana: