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Coach Scott
September 8th, 2013, 04:27 PM
All,
Just back from World Clinic in New Orleans.

Probably the most important message I got was this one.

http://www.swimvortex.com/bowman-baltimores-warning-on-shallow-water-blackout/

Scott Bay
Head Coach - ASCA Level 5
Blu Frog Team
USMS Coaches Chair
Florida LMSC Chair
scottbay@usms.org
386.341.2899

Allen Stark
September 8th, 2013, 05:29 PM
How awful!!!.
It it is common for good swimmers to see how far they can go underwater.DON'T!!!!!!

pendaluft
September 8th, 2013, 10:34 PM
One of the attached websites (http://shallowwaterblackoutprevention.org (http://shallowwaterblackoutprevention.org/)) states that it can happen without hyperventilation. That is something I had not heard before (nor knew) and really gives me pause. I love swimming underwater but thought I was safe if I didn't hyperventilate.

It's a horrible story that is, sadly, not unique. (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/lifeguard-critical-swimmer-drowned-breath-holding-exercise-wrong-staten-island-pool-article-1.161522)

pendaluft
September 8th, 2013, 10:46 PM
One of the attached websites (http://shallowwaterblackoutprevention.org (http://shallowwaterblackoutprevention.org/)) states that it can happen without hyperventilation. That is something I had not heard before (nor knew) and really gives me pause. I love swimming underwater but thought I was safe if I didn't hyperventilate.

It's a horrible story that is, sadly, not unique. (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/lifeguard-critical-swimmer-drowned-breath-holding-exercise-wrong-staten-island-pool-article-1.161522)

__steve__
September 9th, 2013, 10:16 AM
I read the .org article too, and was surprised to find a false low CO2 sensing can even come from one or two slow, deep breath, even from natural high effort recovery breathing.

I will continue to train for a 50 m races with a single breath, and 50 yards without, but while training l'll try to make sure my system is reading accurate CO2 levels. How do I do that?

knelson
September 9th, 2013, 02:09 PM
How do I do that?

Probably the simplest way is just don't push it. Your body tells you when you need air. Listen to it.

Allen Stark
September 9th, 2013, 02:14 PM
I read the .org article too, and was surprised to find a false low CO2 sensing can even come from one or two slow, deep breath, even from natural high effort recovery breathing.

I will continue to train for a 50 m races with a single breath, and 50 yards without, but while training l'll try to make sure my system is reading accurate CO2 levels. How do I do that?
I'd say not to do 50 no breathers.You can't train 50s at 50 pace anyway. 25s (or 12.5s if you like Rushall http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?22783-Ultra-Short-Training-At-Race-Pace ) are better for sprints and probably safe as no breathers.

__steve__
September 9th, 2013, 03:28 PM
Thanks Allen. What I meant to express was actually train for a 50 races which would involve one breath S/LCM (none for SCY).

As for training limits, maybe 25 + turn and 2 strokes max (with sufficient air remainder) for fast hypoxic work, and maybe a 50 with fins (only if I'm not pushing). Hypoxic repeats done with sufficient rest, to stabilize whatever inconsistancy there is between blood and percieved CO2. Lifeguards must be present.

Like Kirk said, listen to it (don't push). A while ago I actually pushed things a bit too far, definately didn't feel right. Not going near that again.

Kevin in MD
September 10th, 2013, 04:36 PM
Probably the simplest way is just don't push it. Your body tells you when you need air. Listen to it.

The whole point of the discussion is to reinforce the point that in most shallow water blackouts, your body *doesn't* tell you when you need air. So I don't think your statement gets the point across as well as could be.

knelson
September 11th, 2013, 09:56 AM
Based on the shallowwaterblackoutprevention.org it would also seem like hyperventilating is really to be avoided because this can give you a false sense that you don't need air. I know when I do no breathers I can tell when I need air, but I don't hyperventilate. I think the best advice is to not push it and to not hyperventilate. Underwater swimming distance should never become a competition.

__steve__
September 11th, 2013, 12:38 PM
Unfortunately there is a small window of training adaptation to be had with breath control for some swim events and a certain danger when doing so. Kinda like cycling in a way, there's an inherent risk when blasting down a grade at 70 mph, you must know your limit in every situation. While training for swimming events which make you faster by maximizing UW portions, or limiting numbers of breath, you must be aware of things to avoid which offset correct blood co2 feedback since it appears to be an open loop system. We're not engineered to be aquatic mammals. Well, at least most of us unlike Chris