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johnnyalbo61
October 7th, 2013, 10:36 PM
I'll apologize in advance, but I'm a breaststroker and my butterfly sux. Looking for an opinion on rule 101.3.3. I'm doing the butterfly with a breaststroke kick, just like I did in 10 & unders. QUESTION 1: Is it legal to do one breaststroke kick in to the arm stroke, and then one dolphin kick out? QUESTION 2: As long as I'm complying with the 15m rule, can I do SL dolphin kicks off the start and walls, then one breaststroke kick into a pull which pops me to the surface. Again, I'm an old breaststroker looking for a loop hole in the rules.

Rob Copeland
October 8th, 2013, 08:51 AM
I wouldn’t call it a loophole, but we do have a rule that allows you to do the breaststroke kick interchangeably with the dolphin kick.

Butterfly
101.3.3 Kick—All up and down movements of the legs and feet must be simultaneous.
The position of the legs or the feet need not be on the same level, but they shall not alternate in relation to each other. The breaststroke or whip kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with the dolphin kick while doing the butterfly stroke at any time during the race. Only one breaststroke or whip kick is permitted per arm pull, except that a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted prior to the turn and the finish without an arm pull. After the start and after each turn, a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted prior to the first arm pull. A scissors kicking movement is not permitted.

johnnyalbo61
October 8th, 2013, 02:11 PM
I'm doing one breast kick into the arm stroke, and a second dolphin kick out of the arm stroke. Legal, right? That's what they mean by "interchangeable"?

Rob Copeland
October 8th, 2013, 02:25 PM
Only one breaststroke or whip kick is permitted per arm pull.

Legal - arm pull, breaststroke kick
Legal - arm pull, breaststroke kick, dolphin kick
Legal - dolphin kick, arm pull, dolphin kick, breaststroke kick, dolphin kick
Illegal - arm pull, breaststroke kick, breaststroke kick
Illegal - arm pull, breaststroke kick, dolphin kick, breaststroke kick

thewookiee
October 8th, 2013, 04:13 PM
Legal - dolphin kick, arm pull, dolphin kick, breaststroke kick, dolphin kick

Illegal - arm pull, breaststroke kick, dolphin kick, breaststroke kick

Rob,

Why is it legal to do "arm pull, dolphin kick, breastroke kick, dolpin kick" but illegal to do "arm pull, breastroke kick, dolphin kick, breastroke kick" There is only 1 arm pull in either way?

Rob Copeland
October 8th, 2013, 05:03 PM
Why is it legal to do "arm pull, dolphin kick, breastroke kick, dolpin kick" but illegal to do "arm pull, breastroke kick, dolphin kick, breastroke kick" There is only 1 arm pull in either way?The first is legal because there was only 1 breaststroke kick with the 1 arm pull and the second is illegal because there are 2 breaststroke kicks with the 1 arm pull. It’s the number of breaststroke kicks per arm pull not the number of arm pulls per breaststroke kick that determine a legal butterfly stroke.

It is legal to dolphin kick the entire length of the pool without any arm pulls, provided you remain on the surface at and past the 15 Meter line. You can even throw in one and only one breaststroke kick anywhere along the way and still be legal.

johnnyalbo61
October 8th, 2013, 08:16 PM
Thanks!

Allen Stark
October 9th, 2013, 07:56 PM
The way I swim butterfrog is dive dolphin,dolphin,BR kick,dolphin,surface with first pull and BR kick,dolphin after every stroke.Off the walls I always do the BR kick,but the number of dolphin kicks is dependent on my need for oxygen.I'll do butterfrog for the whole way in a 200 fly,or for the BR leg of a 400 IM.My regular fly is faster than my butterfrog for about 60 yd,so I go about that far in a 100 fly regular and then switch.(Yes I can swim 100 fly,or 200 fly regular and legal,just not as fast.) If your BR is good and your BK is lousy like mine,here is another trick.On BK I swim BR underwater on my back for as close to the legal 15M as my lungs will allow.

ande
November 18th, 2013, 03:22 PM
I wouldn’t call it a loophole, but we do have a rule that allows you to do the breaststroke kick interchangeably with the dolphin kick.

Butterfly
101.3.3 Kick—All up and down movements of the legs and feet must be simultaneous.
The position of the legs or the feet need not be on the same level, but they shall not alternate in relation to each other. The breaststroke or whip kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with the dolphin kick while doing the butterfly stroke at any time during the race. Only one breaststroke or whip kick is permitted per arm pull, except that a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted prior to the turn and the finish without an arm pull. After the start and after each turn, a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted prior to the first arm pull. A scissors kicking movement is not permitted.

I wish the inverse were true
that masters could legally do breastroke with a dolphin kick

I haven't tested it but I have a feeling it might be way faster for me, especially if I changed my breastroke pull
the streamline to outsweep to insweep to thrust to much smaller faster motions to squeeze in more DKs

taruky
February 1st, 2014, 09:32 PM
Could someone explain a little more about the "alternating" that is illegal in the butterfly kick? If someone, while doing a dolphin kick, has one foot start slightly before the other, is that "alternating" and illegal (i.e. a flutter kick)? Would a good way to think of it (for me) be to have toes touching through the downbeat? Also, how is a breast stroke kick considered "alternating", as it seems simultaneous to me (although mirror imaged)

Allen Stark
February 1st, 2014, 10:01 PM
Alternating means,basically, flutter kicking.If your right foot is above your left,or v.v.,that is legal as long as they stay that way throughout each length.If you start with the right foot higher and somewhere down the pool the left foot gets higher,you have done an illegal flutter kick to get there.

taruky
February 1st, 2014, 10:18 PM
Alternating means,basically, flutter kicking.If your right foot is above your left,or v.v.,that is legal as long as they stay that way throughout each length.If you start with the right foot higher and somewhere down the pool the left foot gets higher,you have done an illegal flutter kick to get there.
Hmm, that makes sense. But what about the scenario where someone's feet are together just before the first dolphin kick, and one foot starts a downbeat a 10th of a second before the other, but then they come up together again?

Vicki Campbell
February 1st, 2014, 10:25 PM
It is being judged by the naked eye and so anything that looks together is going to be ok. Unless they have superman vision or something.

taruky
February 7th, 2014, 08:43 PM
Another question about fly guys. I was watching a GoSwim video with Glen Mills talking about the underwater body dolphin. He was describing the motion as compressing your back while pressing with the chest, then releasing. I tried that in the water today and it actually felt really good in the sense that by concentrating the tension in my lower back it allowed me to relax my legs and my dolphin kick flowed more naturally. I also tried applying it to my butterfly and, by golly, my rhythm was better and I was faster. The only concern I have is that I could really feel it in the lower back afterward and I want to make sure I'm not going to injure myself or anything. My wife says they do that back compression in Pilates all the time, so I guess that feeling may have been due to me not using that area much before and I'll get used to it. Would some of you consider that the way you body dolphin or swim the fly, i.e. compressing the lower back?

That Guy
February 8th, 2014, 08:24 PM
Would some of you consider that the way you body dolphin or swim the fly, i.e. compressing the lower back? I've always thought of my dolphin kick in terms of my abdominals, hips, and legs. So I tried thinking about it this way today. It seemed like I was riding a bit higher in butterfly, particularly while breathing. I think it was slightly faster but more testing is needed. Good tip, thanks!