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lcolette
February 20th, 2014, 10:42 AM
In the meeting a request to accept swims swim out of the LMSC swum by a Pacific swimmer for Pacific top 10 times.

Now it seemed to be agreed upon that the meets had to be sanctioned or recognized by USMS such as Worlds, etc but they can be swam outside of the LMSC.

Currently in my understanding, the Pacific top ten is only open to Pacific swimmers in a Pacific meet. Outside swimmers are not considered and neither are meets outside of Pacific's jurisdiction.

The question that is most interesting is 'Do Pacific top ten times belong to the LMSC' or 'Do are they the swimmers' top ten time'. This is in an effort to define the problem and work to a solution. Please if I got this wrong, correct it or comment on it with your thoughts....

Cokie
February 20th, 2014, 01:47 PM
I'd like to make a case for Top 10 Pacific meaning you swam a Top 10 time in a Pacific Masters sponsored swim meet, regardless if your are a Pac Masters swimmer or a swimmer from another zone. I'm concerned about my swimmers who may just eke into the Top 10 Pacific list being bumped out by a Pac Masters swimmer who is swimming meets in other LMSC offerings. It is one thing to achieve Top 10 USMS and an entirely different thing to achieve Top 10 Pac Masters. We already have a pretty tough, competitive zone to swim in. Adding in outside swim meets makes it even tougher. For those swimmers that I'm working hard to swim in meets, it is such an incredible rush for them to know they achieved a Top 10 Pacific time. I think having the Top 10 time belonging to a Pac Masters meet is a fair representation.

Also, I think we have had "outside swimmers" ranked in our Pac Masters Top 10 because I recall seeing Pac Masters records held by non Pac Masters swimmers. I'm not sure we want to change that as record keeping could become challenging.

coach's pet 1
February 20th, 2014, 05:04 PM
I believe a TOP Ten should be a top ten. FINA has its Top Ten and USMS has its Top Ten . These top tens are determined by a swimmer's best effort, and Pacific Master's Top Ten should also represent the same. Why would we want anything less?

John Morales

PeterGuadagni
February 20th, 2014, 05:25 PM
According to Nancy Ridout the current Pacific Masters Top Ten is based on the top times achieved by Pacific Masters members at Pacific Masters sanctioned or recognized meets. There may have been times when members from other LMSCs appeared in our local Top Ten lists but this is the type of inevitable error that occurs when compiling lists with hundreds of entries.

The USMS Top Ten is based on the top times achieved by USMS members regardless of the performance location. For example, times achieved at the FINA World Championships in Sweden or Italy would have been eligible for the USMS Top Ten. Times achieved at a USMS competition by a foreign Masters swimmer would not be eligible for the USMS Top Ten. In my opinion, the Pacific Masters Top Ten criteria should be analogous to USMS Top Ten, based on the top times achieved by its members regardless of the location where the times were achieved.

No matter what the criteria is for inclusion in the local Top Ten, some member performances will benefit and some will not. Only a small number of our members travel to competitions outside of our area so including times achieved by those members at those competitions will not dramatically change our ranking. Most members would want their best time in an event during a year used to determine their rank.

Fresnoid
February 20th, 2014, 09:08 PM
The current criteria for the Pacific Masters Top 10 appears in the Pacific Masters Administrative Handbook in the section describing the responsibilities of the Records and Top Ten Committee, "It compiles a list of swimmers who have achieved Top Times in Pacific Masters Swimming events...." This implies Pacific Masters membership is not required for inclusion in the list and in practice it is not as witnessed by the 2012 Long Course Meters Pacific Top 10 which features Richard Abrahams of Colorado and Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen of San Diego as the top ranked competitors in a number of events. Currently, only times achieved at Pacific Masters Swimming events are eligible, these include sanctioned pool meets hosted by registered Pacific Masters clubs and recognized meets such as the Senior Games where the host organization may not be directly affiliated with USMS.

The USMS Top Ten is based on the top times achieved by USMS members regardless of the performance location. For example, times achieved at the FINA World Championships in Sweden or Italy would have been eligible for the USMS Top Ten. Times achieved at a USMS competition by a foreign Masters swimmer would not be eligible for the USMS Top Ten. In my opinion, the Pacific Masters Top Ten criteria should be analogous to USMS Top Ten, based on the top times achieved by its members regardless of the location where the times were achieved.

No matter what the criteria is for inclusion in the local Top Ten, some member performances will benefit and some will not. There will be times when almost every swimmer's rank for an event can change when a different criteria is used. Sometimes it will go up and sometimes down.

Since SC Nationals is in Santa Clara, does that automatically make it a Pacific masters event?

PeterGuadagni
February 21st, 2014, 11:09 AM
Based on past practice, times achieved at the SCY Nationals in Santa Clara by Pacific Masters members will be eligible for the Pacific Masters Top Ten. Please note the criteria for Top Ten eligibility contained in my original post was incorrect. Only Pacific Masters members are eligible for the Pacific Masters Top Ten. My post has been corrected.

elanejr
February 24th, 2014, 07:13 PM
USMS and Pac Masters operate for the benefit of the swimmers, and the focus should be on swims by Pac Masters members. As long as meet is sanctioned by Pac Masters, USMS, or FINA, the swim should count towards the Top 10. I don't see that the location of the pool is relevant.