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vo2
February 22nd, 2014, 04:42 PM
If these are done by the 50 on say :10 rest is there any way to glean a range of potential 200 times? Today at the behest of coach I did the 200 stuff he wants me to look into. Do you add x amount of time to the broken times to get a guesstimate or is that just wildly inaccurate?

I ask by my 200 time off the wall in um, not very good. But after doing these 50's, which is what my focus is in the 50/100, it looks more hopeful.

Thanks as always for the amazing knowledge base here on usms. Have a nice day:)

cclarke
February 22nd, 2014, 08:58 PM
For me the broken 200 has always been an accurate predictor of my actual 200 time in the pool. I do them with 10 secs rest but if there is a coach on deck the best way to get your accurate broken time would be to have the coach start his watch when your feet leave the wall and also do a flip turn after each 50 and stop the watch on your feet - repeat for all four 50's. I am usually within a half second of my broken time in a race. This way you eliminate any chance of leaving early or late during the rest phases.

vo2
February 23rd, 2014, 06:36 AM
For me the broken 200 has always been an accurate predictor of my actual 200 time in the pool. I do them with 10 secs rest but if there is a coach on deck the best way to get your accurate broken time would be to have the coach start his watch when your feet leave the wall and also do a flip turn after each 50 and stop the watch on your feet - repeat for all four 50's. I am usually within a half second of my broken time in a race. This way you eliminate any chance of leaving early or late during the rest phases.

Ok thanks that is great info. I believe I know why my current 200 time is so far off what the broken sets show and that is probably due to lack of endurance. Maybe not? But a 200 the past couple of years has meant a super easy cool down swim:) The best 200 I have ever clocked is a 2:25, but my broken time was so much faster that I was having trouble seeing the value in it. As in my broken 200 time was 19 seconds faster. I just have a lonnnng way to go transitioning from 100 fitness to 200 fitness which makes sense. If you by chance have any workouts you think might help aid me in that endurance building I'd be grateful. I trust my coach and am going to do what he says, but in the spirit of learning it would be great to read what others are doing. Thanks again.

cclarke
February 24th, 2014, 11:34 AM
Sure I am happy help give some advice. First, all swimmers are different so what may work for one person may not work for another. Second I think the 200 distance is a a harder race to master than most - it's not a sprint but it is also not a distance event like the 500 and above. It is really a controlled sprint and pacing is critical. I think to understand where you are currently at a few questions can help establish a baseline:

1. How many times per week do you swim?
2. How far are you going when you do your workouts?
3. Do you have a specific goal time you are trying to reach on your 200?
4. Do you have the splits (by 50) for your last race?

Answers to the above questions will help to understand where you are at and then I can give you some ideas to work on - at least the things I try to focus on when training for the 200.

chowmi
February 25th, 2014, 12:15 PM
For me the broken 200 has always been an accurate predictor of my actual 200 time in the pool. I do them with 10 secs rest but if there is a coach on deck the best way to get your accurate broken time would be to have the coach start his watch when your feet leave the wall and also do a flip turn after each 50 and stop the watch on your feet - repeat for all four 50's. I am usually within a half second of my broken time in a race. This way you eliminate any chance of leaving early or late during the rest phases.

This is an interesting tip! Mostly because it would be very, very hard for me, like more than 2x just doing the 50 itself. So if it sounds that hard, then it's probably what I need to try! I really like the idea of the flipturn. Although a different topic, different thread (race pace),the issue of turns came up (I think a Fort post). One big area of bog-down (for me) is turns, and the tendency to get sloppy/lazy at the walls. I also ruminated between two intervals - 40 and 45 for SCM - and so this would make the decision easier - 45 of course, with a turn. It's not practical for a coach to yell out only my times, but I would think it's a relative figure - so you do your finish (touch or a turn) and then look at the clock, it's not the real time, but then use that as a base time from which to improve. If I swam by myself, I suppose I could even do the full turn, 4 stroke breakout, then come back to the wall, maybe go on 1 min. I feel compelled to swim the 200 free and 400 IM NEXT year, as 2015 will the 20th anniversary since I last did a REAL 200 free (1995) and 10 years since I did a 400 IM (2005)! Excellent tip!

cclarke
February 25th, 2014, 03:54 PM
I always say "If you can't do it in practice then how do you expect to do it in a race" :) When you swim a 200 in a race you have to complete all the turns so why not practice it during the broken 200's? Also there can be a lot of variation on how you execute the broken 200. I tend to be looking for my time before I actually reach the wall with my hand, in the excitement of trying to get a fast time there is a tendency to want to leave early (shorter than 10 sec rest), and the flip turn does add time with 7 total turns on a SCY 200. If a coach can do it as described above it eliminates all of the variation and then its just down to swimming. I understand with a larger group it's hard to do. Keep at it (advice for myself too since I have only been back in the pool for two months now).

vo2
February 26th, 2014, 05:04 AM
Sure I am happy help give some advice. First, all swimmers are different so what may work for one person may not work for another. Second I think the 200 distance is a a harder race to master than most - it's not a sprint but it is also not a distance event like the 500 and above. It is really a controlled sprint and pacing is critical. I think to understand where you are currently at a few questions can help establish a baseline:

1. How many times per week do you swim? 4-5 days
2. How far are you going when you do your workouts? 2500-3 including w/u c/d
3. Do you have a specific goal time you are trying to reach on your 200? I have no realistic time to pick since 50/100 is all I do
4. Do you have the splits (by 50) for your last race? Have never done a 200 at a meet or even off the blcok, but coach seems to think it suits me?? Have no idea why b/c my 200 off the wall was 2:31 scy I mean the fast 200 guys are doing that for a send off!

Answers to the above questions will help to understand where you are at and then I can give you some ideas to work on - at least the things I try to focus on when training for the 200.

Also, to give at least some time info. My 50 free is a 26.98 and 100 a 58.33.

cclarke
March 2nd, 2014, 11:11 AM
Ok sorry for the delay in responding. I have been down in Ft Lauderdale for the last 5 days on a swimcation/training camp.

So to give you some reference in 2010 at nationals I swam the 200 free and went a 1:48. Although I did not swim the 100 free (fully tapered) my best that season was a 50. So if you break it down my average time for the 200 free per 100 was 54 secs which was roughly 4 secs slower than my 100 time. So if we extrapolate (assuming you are exactly the same as me - not a good assumption but good enough for this) and take your current 100 time of 58.33 and add 4 secs to that we get 1:02.33. Now if we double that for a 200 that would be just under 2:05 for a 200 free. This may be a stretch goal for you since you have not raced the 200 free much. Pacing for the 200 free is critical and can have a large impact on how your final time turns out and that comes with experience and racing the event a number of times. Realistically I think you should be able to break 2:08 in a tapered swim. I would recommend that you gear your broken 200 swims towards a time of 2:08 or better as a start.

Now I am a mid distance and distance swimmer and definitely not a pure sprinter. I come alive at 200 and above. What may work for me may not necessarily work for you but I think the above times are achievable and realistic. I also train more yards than you currently are. In workouts I would also make sure you are swimming sets that involve 200's and 300's. A good set would be 4-5x200's on 3:30 and descend them to as fast as possible. Try to target getting down to 2:20 or better on the last one in practice. Do this on a 2 week cycle if possible and record your times everytime you do it. Look to keep progressing and improving each time you do the set and learn how to pace yourself. Also do the full out broken 200 on a regular basis and track your progression there as this will help predict how you are doing as well as teach better pacing.

Like I said these are ideas that I work on and know work for me. I think just setting a goal (2:08 in your case) and then working towards that and tracking your progress as you train will get you there and you may even surprise yourself. If you dont get there right away keep working at it and it will eventually come.

__steve__
March 2nd, 2014, 09:55 PM
I was curious so I plotted last year's #1 SCY free times vs distance in my age group (45 - 49). It is almost a perfectly straight line, weird.

On topic:

I also guestimated your 200 race time based on your 100 time vo2. Used it as a percentile with the ranking database. Cclark's estimation seems very close to what I got (2:09.47), but 2:08 may be more likely since your 50 / 100 times kinda reflect a mid-D/ sprinter.

There is a more accurate way to find it, but might hurt for a minute or two :).

secondheart
March 3rd, 2014, 12:36 AM
I was curious so I plotted last year's #1 SCY free times vs distance in my age group (45 - 49). It is almost a perfectly straight line, weird.

On topic:

I also guestimated your 200 race time based on your 100 time vo2. Used it as a percentile with the ranking database. Cclark's estimation seems very close to what I got (2:09.47), but 2:08 may be more likely since your 50 / 100 times kinda reflect a mid-D/ sprinter.

There is a more accurate way to find it, but might hurt for a minute or two :).

a 58.33 for a 45 year old is equivalent to a 2:10.14 for a 200. A great calculator for this is http://www.vaswim.org/cgi-bin/rcalc.cgi cclarke is a distance swimmer so his 200 will be relatively better than his 100, vo2 seems to be more a sprinter so a 2:10 may be a stretch for him. :2cents:

cclarke
March 3rd, 2014, 08:55 AM
[QUOTE=__steve__;295125]I was curious so I plotted last year's #1 SCY free times vs distance in my age group (45 - 49). It is almost a perfectly straight line, weird.

I did the same for my free 50/100/200 and 50/100/200 backstroke and there is a close linear relationship for me also. Would be interesting to do this for a range of USMS swimmers. Entry level, Mid Level, and Top 10 swimmers. I wonder if the relationship would become closer to linear as the level of swimmer and training intensity increases? One day when I have "lot's" of time on my hands I may attempt to do this for masters swimmers.

vo2
March 3rd, 2014, 01:42 PM
clarke and steve thanks guys! well, this 200 madness is purely an experiment with my coach. i very much enjoy 100 and below and with what time i have available it probably suits the yardage i'm able to put in weekly. i practice on my quite a bit simply due to travel constraints. that said i'm willing to give 'er a go. a 2:10 seems like a lonnnnng way off, but i do enjoy the challenges of swimming and seeing improvement it's an aspect that keeps me coming back. thanks again all.