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TheFish
February 12th, 2004, 02:14 AM
Hello,

Do any of you lift weights and if so has it helped with your swimming? (ie: made you swim faster, harder, times are lower etc?)

Thanks

gull
February 12th, 2004, 07:27 AM
I have a dry land program that has helped my shoulder--I have osteoarthritis of the ac joint that was causing causing impingement (mainly the biceps tendon). I use elastic bands for rotator cuff exercises, and I use a weight machine for lat pulldown and triceps. The program was designed by a sports medicine physical therapist. She also told me which exercises to avoid. I'm not sure that this has made me swim faster, but I'm swimming without pain for the first time in many years and have been able to increase my yardage. It took about six months to see results. Of course Glucosamine and Vioxx have helped too.

Edward The Head
February 12th, 2004, 07:33 AM
I have been lifting since October, going 3-4 times a week except for the week of a meet. Yes it has helped, helped a lot in some ways. My free doesn't seem to have come down much, but the rest of my strokes have. I just did 4 out of 5 personal bests two weeks ago. I dropped 4-5 seconds on my 200 IM, from late october, about 2 seconds on my 200 free, 2-3 on my 100 breast and a huge 13 seconds on my 400 IM. (converted from LC to yards though).

This was all done in a pair of jammers and a pool with slippery walls if that makes much difference. I can also say that I the weights have helped out, I can also see muscles that I couldn't before. I also have a chest and arms.

exrunner
February 12th, 2004, 01:48 PM
I swim 2-3 times a week, and go to the gym 1-2 times a week (as schedule permits). On gym days I also try to do 30 minutes of stationary bike. I am not at all a competitive swimmer, so I cannot comment on whether this creates an edge. But, for the purposes of getting exercise and buring off the calories, this seems to be a pretty good mix. The weight training has helped a great deal with shoulder and elbow aches, which I used to get more often when I started out at the pool. I am 42.

I read in a physiology book that weight training and aerobic training should not be done one right after the other, or else the aerobic component will erase some of the training effect of the resistance exercise. How much of a time gap is needed to overcome this has not been established, apparently. Thirty minutes might be sufficient. I wonder if anybody knows more about this?

sparx35
February 12th, 2004, 02:42 PM
i sometimes have to WAIT before TRAINING......lol
sorry couldnt resist..seriously i used to do weights even have my own set i think they help,but i havent used them in a year or so,actual swimming is the best improvement i find,this i think because swimming is mainly aerobic excersise and weights improve muscle mass,but im no expert

2go+h20
February 12th, 2004, 05:15 PM
Complementing pool workouts with dryland is beneficial.
When a weight program is implemented make sure a properly trained health professional (physical therapist, sports medecine trainer, to name a couple) design this. Unless you have knowledge :)
A weight program is designed to improve your swimming. It has to be specific to your needs, body type and style of swimming. (Eg sprinter vs marathon swimmer). You don't want to end up bulked up like Mr. Atlas -- how much more resistance in the water do we need ;)
Usually a 12 week weight program is recommended.
It is also recommended that a person swims first and lifts weights after. Trying to swim with already heavily worked arms will not enhance your technique. Putting the wrong movement into the muscle memory takes a very long and frustrating amount of time to undo those bad habits.
Included in a weight program will also be your shoulder prevention exercises, core strength exercises and a most important an too often overlooked Stretch Program.
When we use our muscles they work hard, and will shorten. To use a muscle efficiently we must have a very good range of motion. Stretching ensures this as well as the health of our muscles and joints. And it will help to prevent injury.
How many swimmers do dryland and stretching after a workout?
How many swimmers do dryland and stretching? How many times a weeK?
"To motivate, add water"
"Fear is a reaction, courage is a decision"

gull
February 12th, 2004, 06:14 PM
I was told that lifting before swimming increases your risk of injury, esp. the rotator cuff.

breastroker
February 12th, 2004, 10:20 PM
read in a physiology book that weight training and aerobic training should not be done one right after the other, or else the aerobic component will erase some of the training effect of the resistance exercise

Come on, do you really think that doing gym weight workout and following up with aerobic training (swimming) will erase some of the training effect? That is beyond belief. Many college teams do weights and hard (for us) swimming every day.

If properly done, weight training causes immediate effects to the muscles at the cellular level. The hormones and other substances released by properly stressing one body area actually flows through the blood stream and affects the other body parts. It is called the "training effect". Injured body parts benefit from working out other body areas.

If fact, I have long been a proponent of doing a hard full body weight workout, followed by aerobic training - swimming. Swimming soon after doing weights clears lactic acid out of the muscles and allows faster recovery from doing weights.

Note I am saying aerobic swimming, not hard sets that generate additional lactic acid like sprint sets and reduced breathing sets.
I have an article on weight training at www.breaststroke.info.

Note all swimmers should be aware that they need to take charge of their workouts. If they are swiming under a good coach 5-6 days a week, you will get a variety of workouts, some freestyle, one day might have long distance freestyle sets. Another day might have shorter sprint sets, yet another day may have IM sets that work more muscle groups. This is what is ideal.

But what about the average master swimmer that swims three days a week. They might miss the long slow day, and do nothing but sprint sets because they are working the shorter sets hard.
This can be very detremental to your muscles and your swiming improvement.

You as an adult masters swimmers needs to be aware that you can vary your intensity every single day you swim. So on a day you do weights, take control of your workout and swim slower, stretching out more. Work harder (lactic acid) at least one day a week, but not two in a row.

I am one of those who is lucky if I get three workouts in a week. But EVERY day I swim, I work on something beyond what the coach is giving us. Every turn is a race turn. Every pushoff the wall is for perfection, when I am doing breaststroke I try to go 13 to 15 yards underwater, every single length. I work on small things like sucking my stomach in (large:D ), back straight with no curvature, one thumb wrapped over the top of the other hand, and about ten other things, EVERY length I swim. With a 3000 yard workout that is 60 lengths to work on things. And that would be a short workout, most of us are covering more yardage.

Hope this helps

Coach Wayne McCauley
ASCA Level 5
18 years in a row Top 10

:drink:

Dominick Aielloeaver
February 13th, 2004, 12:26 AM
A lot hasto do with age. Also how hard you weight train or swim. Also the duration of weights and swimming time. Also recouprating. Also if you are a beginner of swimming or weight training. Or if at a younger age you did these phyiscal actives. You then have a base for either activeity. But rule of thumb , is tif you are in the weight room one day then do not swim that day . Unless you weight train 15 - 20 minutes and are ging to swim 15 minutes. but if you are swimming say 2500-meters , then dont weight train that day.Same goes for weights then dont swim.:) :cool:

breastroker
February 13th, 2004, 12:59 PM
Dominick,
I agree totally on age. Men are full of Testosterone and grow muscle mass easily, up until the middle to late thirties. After that it is not produced as easily and tapers off. Additionally other hormones that rebuild cell structure tapers off in production as we age.

At age 35 I could do an hour of maximun effort weight workout every other day, and recover fully. By 45 I had to go to every third day, my body just could not recover in 48 hours.

But I disagree with you on swimming the same day as weights.
Come on 2500 meters is nothing, even after a hard weight workout. There is nothing like a swim workout of 3500 to 4000 yards (about an hour) to pump out the muscles after a hard weight day. There are other ways to do the same as swimming after weights, all expensive. Oxygen therapy followed by 10-15 minutes in a jacussi, followed by an hour of quality massage ($90)will help recovery from the weights almost as much as a swim workout. It takes over 1500 meters just to warmup properly.

Do you really think elite swimmers arround the world do nothing else the day of a weight workout? Every day they do weights, they swim. And some days they swim twice, after a weight workout. If they don't, someone else in the world will and will be gaining an advantage. And they hit the weights much harder than most of us swimmers. If you can't swim after doing weights, it is a mental thing and not physical.:p

Much in life is mental blockage. For years I could not go above 500 pounds on the inclined squat machine (leg press), which simulates the starting block and pushoffs perfectly. Then one day a little lady a the gym challenged my to compete with this guy much bigger than me, with huge thighs of STEEL. We did not stop that day untill we got to 30 reps at 920 pounds. And it did not hurt the next day. The barrier was all in my mind. Since then I have gone to 1125 pounds on this machine.

Coach Wayne McCauley
ASCA Level 5

Leonard Jansen
February 13th, 2004, 01:14 PM
Tudor Bompa, a leading researcher in training periodization, advocates doing weights on the harder workout days; not the easy ones. The reasoning is that if you swim hard one day and then lift weights on the "off" day, you never really get a complete chance to recover and your glycogen never completely "tops the tank" either. He has a number of books, but the one that I saw this in was "Periodization Training for Sports" - kind of a misnomer, since it really is focused on strength training; not general training. It is a very good book.

-LBJ

Conniekat8
February 13th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Dominick Aiello
A lot hasto do with age. Also how hard you weight train or swim. Also the duration of weights and swimming time. Also recouprating. Also if you are a beginner of swimming or weight training. Or if at a younger age you did these phyiscal actives. You then have a base for either activeity. But rule of thumb , is tif you are in the weight room one day then do not swim that day . Unless you weight train 15 - 20 minutes and are ging to swim 15 minutes. but if you are swimming say 2500-meters , then dont weight train that day.Same goes for weights then dont swim.:) :cool:

I'd say if you're gonna swim more like 4000 don't weight train on the sme day (at least not a full workout).
And ... I'm half ways out of shape 34-year old girl, and not a very fast swimmer (yet). ;)

rusty
February 13th, 2004, 02:39 PM
I lift weghts 5 days a seek and swim 5 or 6 days a week. Almost always lifting first and then swimming. I vary my weight and swimming workouts according to how I feel. I think that is the answer - just use common sense. If I have completed a hard weight lifting session I take a little longer to stretch before jumping in the pool. I also warm up more gradually and see how it goes. Sometimes I follow a hard weight workout with a vigoris swim session, and sometimes not. I have been doing this for about 4 years, and have suffered no injuries related to the workouts. Granted I am not a world class athlete and am not training for specifically competition. I am a fitness swimmer who competes only occaisionsly. Also I have found that having a day off every 3 or 4 days is very beneficial, I come back stronger every time.

Gil
February 13th, 2004, 02:58 PM
Gullo, Can you describe the exercises you do with stretch bands please? Also, what exercises were you advised not to do? If you prefer not to answer on the site I would appreciate an e-mail for the answers to the above questions.

Gil
ggilswim@aol.com

Gil
February 13th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Gull80, Sorry I read your moniker wrong!

exrunner
February 13th, 2004, 03:30 PM
Coach Wayne MacCauley opined

"Come on, do you really think that doing gym weight workout and following up with aerobic training (swimming) will erase some of the training effect? That is beyond belief."

Let me refer interested readers to "Exercise Physiology: Energy, Nutrition and Human Performance," which was my source for the concern about weights followed by aerobic exercise. It is a medical text with extensive references to original research articles. Since this is outside of my field of expertise, I cannot give an authoritative, critical evaluation of the claim.

If you can wait until this evening, I'll dig up the page number, give you the exact quotation, and any cited studies.

Dominick Aielloeaver
February 13th, 2004, 04:57 PM
WAyne. I was talking about the NORMAL person. A lot of what you say is true , also good common sense. But what I am talking about is people That train and compete on occasion. Of course there are people who are coached. And train almost evrey day. But be that asit may , I still liked your thoughts. But I gather from , you must really physically be in excaptional shape.:) :cool:

breastroker
February 13th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Dominick

I am talking about normal swimmers. I am not in exceptional shape, in fact very poor shape. But having done masters swimming for 20 years and weight workouts for 18, I can swim well in poor shape. I used to teach Nautilus back in the 80's, and have coached swimming for 15 years. Even when out of shape I can get to 800 pounds on the inclined squat machine.

One thing I learned while taking the American Swim Coaches Assiciation educational courses is that any physiology book over 5-6 years old should be thrown in the trash.:D Certainly what I learned in college is totally been replaced with real knowledge.

"Exercise Physiology: Energy, Nutrition and Human Performance,"
was released: 15 January, 2001 so at least it is recent. At $75 you must really be into it. How much of this large volume is devoted to swimming? And at what level, research level, NCAA Division III level, or the big boys like Stanford and Texas? I have read many research articles that begin with "using trained athletes" when they are using people so far down the athletic totum pole it is funny. I would like to read this if it has useful information directed at world class swimmers.

And for the most part, researchers can come to any opinion they favor at the moment.:mad: But what is working in the real world to produce champions is usually pretty good science, or at least emperically good. That is why most researchers stay in the labs because they can't coach - except for the great Doc Councilman.

Conniekat8, do you keep a log of your workouts? I would bet that your yardage is pretty high. Even the slow lanes get in 3000+ yards in an hour, the fast lanes get in 4500+. If you want to get faster, get in the gym as well as the pool. As little as 15% improvement in strength can make huge improvements in swimming times. There are certain small muscle groups that are indicators of how fast you can swim. You are really only as fast as your weakest muscles.

Leonard Jansen, what you say has real merit at a very high athletic level. Most masters are like Rusty and myself. It really helps prevent injuries by swimming after weights.

One thing many coaches do not do correctly is time trials. Most teams have sprints or time trials at the end of a workout. Doing them at the start would lead to injuries. But after 20 minutes all intermuscular glycogen is depleted, you are really not sprinting as you cannot utilize the anerobic first 10 -14 seconds that this system allows in trained swimmers.

Swimming after 15 minutes of controlled warmup can lead to true time trials in workouts.

Wow, this is a great thread, lots of good discussion. Nobody flaming anyone else, good information being exchanged. Minds being opened.

Coach Wayne McCauley
ASCA Level 5

exrunner
February 13th, 2004, 08:18 PM
I'm looking at "Exercise Physiology: etc." by McArdle Katch and Katch, 5th edition. On page 519 it says "Resistance Training Plus Aerobic Training Equals Less Strength Improvement. Concurrent resistance and aerobic training programs yield less muscular strength and power improvement than training for strength only." It suggests a 20 to 30 minute recovery period between aerobic and strength training, but cites the need for further research to support this. Four research papers are cited in this paragraph, two of which speak to this particular issue. It does not say whether the subjects are slackers or olympians.

There is no claim that you shouldn't do both aerobic and strength training in the same day, just that you need a break in between. The claim is that the diminished training effect would apply to the strength-building aspect, but not necessarily the aerobic or athletic skill aspects.

The book contains a few specific stats on swimming, such as VO2max versus speed, further categorized by stroke and fitness level. There are also parts devoted to the heat dissipation ability of water versus air, which is something that affects swimmers. Overall it is very broadly sports-targeted, however.

I got the book mainly to understand the biochemical mechanisms by which macronutrients are converted to energy, and what the implications are to proper nutrition for active people. At the risk of stirring up controversy, nothing I have read in this book speaks favorably of low-carb diets, especially for athletes. (Don't blame the messenger!)

There is something else I read which is likely to churn up discussion. On page 482, it says that in a study of collegiate swimmers, one group trained for 90 minutes daily, while another group trained for two 90 minute sessions daily. Surprisingly, no differences were observed in swimming power, endurance, or performance times. This suggests a point of diminishing returns exists around 90 minutes. Have at it....

Conniekat8
February 14th, 2004, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by breastroker
Conniekat8, do you keep a log of your workouts? I would bet that your yardage is pretty high. Even the slow lanes get in 3000+ yards in an hour, the fast lanes get in 4500+. If you want to get faster, get in the gym as well as the pool. As little as 15% improvement in strength can make huge improvements in swimming times. There are certain small muscle groups that are indicators of how fast you can swim. You are really only as fast as your weakest muscles.
Coach Wayne McCauley
ASCA Level 5

Hi Wayne :)

Yes, for about 75% of the days I keep the log of the workouts.
I swim every day, out of those roughly 3 days are 3500-4000 Y workouts (takes me about an hour and 20 min to hour and a half), 2-3 days are 2800-3200Y workouts, takes me about an hour, and 1-2 recovery days, where I do 1500-2000Y of various stroke drilling.
Couple times a week (When Coach Mark lets me - so I don't overtrain - I sneak in a second workout, and about one clinic a week) So I do between 7 and 11 workouts a week.. 20,000 to 25,000 yards a week (well, sometimes we get to swim in the LCM pool too).

I'm pretty consistantly getting faster.
At the moment I'm at :35 fot 50 free, and 1:20 for 100 SCY...
My base 100 free is around 1:33.
Just starting to learn other strokes.

You probably need to know that I only started swimming middle of July, this last year - 2003. Never having swam before, unlike most people in Masters who had at one time or another swam as kids, highschool or college.
Also very badly out of shape when I started, about 40 lb overweight, 33% body fat, resting pulse of around 80 and gasping for air at 140. My first meet was our Mission Viejo LCM zone meet, whopping 3 weeks after I started swimming. I made it through 50 free in about a minute, and 100 free in just over 2 minutes.

So, when I started swimming for Coach Mark, I was pretty much a "tabula raza" Still have a looong ways to go. Tell you what, Mark's coaching is making a huge difference in my progress :)

I'm slowly working in some dryland training, mainly stretching and "ProBodX" developed by Marv Marinovich. Lots of balance and small muscle strength exercises.
these are the guys:
http://www.sportslab.net/about.html
and the ProBodX book that Marv co-authored.

Anyways, I'm quite content with the progress I've made in last 6-7 months :D Still a long way to go before I get in a good shape, and learn proper strokes. But, I'm having lots of fun in the process. I'm digging the whole experinece, the team, the coach, and you SPMA and the USMS guys!

Dominick Aielloeaver
February 14th, 2004, 01:25 AM
Wayne I commend you on your poundage. Awsom. And that is in shape or out of shape. But I must tellyou I can only get 2500 meters in a hour. But I can weight train after that. But I will surlly need Recouperation time for at least two days. When i weight train I can go two solid hours. The next i can swim asolid two hours .But not in the same day.Mind you I do 2500 meters none stop free style all the way. Any way how old are you and how much do you weigh .DOM:)

breastroker
February 14th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Dominick

I just have to ask, what are you doing in the gym for two hours? I have never spent over an hour and that is for upper and lower body. I do max reps, usually 12-14 on Nautilus machines at max pounds. I fill in with inclined leg press and other machines in the free weight room. But I try to go from exercise to execise in less than one minute. That extra hour in the gym to me is wasting an hour in my life I will never get back. If there are not a bunch of pansies sitting in machines between their pitiful multi-set low weight workouts, I can get in the gym and be done in 25 minutes! No messing arround, no wiping off sweat, just hard work.

I am 55 now, close to 210, I need to loose a least 15 pounds to swim better.




Mind you I do 2500 meters none stop free style all the way That is part of the problem. Sounds like you coach your self and you always swim without stopping. Also sounds like you have muscle beach type muscles and not swimming muscles.
You will get much faster doing masters type workouts that add variety and interval training to your swimming. One of the forums here has workouts, you can print them out and swim them yourself. But you will never reach full potential as a swimmer without a real coach.

Connie has a great coach who cares very much about his swimmers. But for her keeping swimming and making some small improvements in muscle strength will help her swimming.

Dominick Aielloeaver
February 14th, 2004, 01:54 PM
Wayne. My problem is I like the gym to much. True I am not a fast swimmer. Also I am Self coached. I do compete on occasion. But for sure I do not break any sound barriers. When i am in the gym my first half hour is ab excerise. But I donot always do weights. I rotate aroun d various excerise. Untill I left N. Y. One of my excerises was boxing. Which cnsisted of various excerises. But manily on different speed bags and double end bags. Also the big bag. Each Has a different purpose. Also true I am not built like aswimmer. I am 5 feet 6 inches 125 lbs. 70 yrs. Old .OH' I do need more rest in between sets , than i did at say 40 50 years of age. DOM

breastroker
February 14th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Dominick,
Actually I think you were getting the best workout with the different speed bags and double end bags. Boxers have long used core body strength, the only way to connect the power of the legs through the abdominals to the hands.

At 5 feet 6 inches 125 lbs I know I would not want to tangle with you.:p And there is really no swimming body type. It does help to be 6 feet 6 inches but there are great swimmers at 4 feet 11 inches.

Remember the "Old" days of medicine balls, well they are back.
I guess 2500 yards is good for 70 years young, although you will never realize your swimming potential at any age with your present coach:D

Tell me the real story on time in the gym. I bet there are some hot babes there. I know I lift more when there are some hotties arround. Just male ego working

Dominick Aielloeaver
February 15th, 2004, 01:22 AM
.wWayne. Yes Ido remember the medicne ball , especailly the 16 lb. Ball. But I was thought at a early age to have a good solid stomach, Cause even at alight body weight some guys canreally take your legs away with some withagood body attack. But I got to tell you Wayne , my swimming is actually my cardio. Also when I am in the gym I am allwork and no play. Now when I am resting between sets , yes there is some real nice babes . I guess that accounts for my extened rest between sets. And of course it is incentive to work out even harder. HA, HA,. Also your sense of humor is great. Dom