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Ion Beza
April 19th, 2002, 03:36 PM
www.swiminfo.com, in an article about 27-years old Olympic Algerian sprinter Salim Iles who two days ago in France set a new African record in 100 meter freestyle in a 50 meter pool at :49.00, claims that age 29 is now considered the "prime years for male swimming".

One day ago, Franck Esposito (Fra.), age 31, swam 1:54.62 in 200 meter butterfly in a 50 meter pool, second fastest time in history, marginally behind Michael Phelps (US) 1:54.58, age 17.
(As a side note, Esposito is not a giant like 6' 7" Tom Malchow (US), or tall like Phelps' 6' 3", he is 5' 11").

Alex. Popov (Rus.), Mark Foster (GBR), John Miranda (US), Ron Karnaugh (US), Sven Lodziewski (Ger) are clear Olympic-level calibers for male swimmers past the age of 30.

So, age 29 is now considered within the "prime years for male swimming" in this sport that is physically fitness-driven.

Matt S
April 20th, 2002, 12:06 PM
Ion,

Another way to look at those statistics is that they might indicate that swimming is, in fact, a skill sport with an endurance component. Let me toss out some other examples from prominent professional sports: baseball, definitely skill sport, prime age: 30; basketball, skill sport, prime age: 27; hockey, skill sport, prime age: 29; tennis, skill sport, prime age: 26; golf, penultimate skill sport, prime age: 35; figure skating, skill sport, prime age: 23. (Please note that the "prime age" statistic is my own, bar-stooling guess. I am open to any alternate ages, and the conclusions you might draw from them. I am a little more confident of my characterization of the above sports as "skill sports," but again I am open to any differing views). My thesis is that many elite swimmers have to practice their craft well past college age to get their stroke technique just right and reach their potential. Thus, I conclude that swimming is more of a skill sport than an endurance sport.

So what's the counter-example? I think most would agree that distance running, bicycling, or triathlons are endurance sports; however, their prime age are also in the late 20's. So maybe I am all wet theoretically (as well as literally) speaking. What do the rest of you think?

Matt

Ion Beza
April 20th, 2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

...
So, age 29 is now considered within the "prime years for male swimming" in this sport that is physically fitness-driven.
Matt, I threw in "..that is physically fitness-driven." and lenghten my statement, knowing that it brings a contentious point.

1) It is reported in www.fina.org that Olympian Alex Popov (Rus.) after a number of second placings in major competitions in mid-90s, cranked up his training in 1998 at in between 80 and 90 kilometers per week, with a majority of anaerobic threshold sets.
In the year 2000, at age 28 and a half, he nailed a :21.64 in 50 meter freestyle in a 50 meter pool, new world record. So to do it, he increased his sprinter training mileage up to the level of an international middle distance swimmer. He boasts that he is dominating other sprinters with superior physical fitness.

2) It was reported in the year 2000 before the Olympics, in www.nbcolympics.com that Tom Dolan (US) was physically outtraining international competitors, with 70 miles per week workouts. Out of this 70 miles, less that 1 mile was technique drills and more than 69 were for the physical fitness conditioning.

3) I remember reading in www.swiminfo.com a few years ago, that when the 400 meter world record holder for women, Janet Evans (US) was training at Stanford, the coach Richard Quick declared that she taught him technique doesn't matter that much.

4) I was smiling in the year 1999 when training in New York made me see this woman doing way more than 50% of her workouts on technique drills, and me less than 10% of my workouts on technique drills, yet I would be blazing past her in any straight swim.

5) The San Diego Union Tribune on Monday March 4, 2002 reads: the "...aerobic capacity, as measured by maximal oxygen uptake tests..." among all sports is the highest in cross-country skiers, swimmers and marathoners. Achieving the biggest possible aerobic capacity, it is physical fitness, and is best done in teen-age years when the body grows.

Unlimited more fitness conditioning is not better since it is physically draining to the point of regress, but more fitness conditioning up to a saturation point for each one to discover, it is better. When a new adult swimmer attempts to do a 200 butterfly for example, the major obstacle is not to understand the technique by means of visualization, the major obstacle is to execute the technique with brain conditioning and physical conditioning: blood vessels connecting the heart and the triceps are missing, blood vessels connecting the heart and the lats are missing, the muscles lats are missing, the kicking muscles are missing, the lungs are small, the aerobic capacity is nil, etc..

What I am saying is that better fitness allows for better technique but not than vice-versa.

SupaFly
April 20th, 2002, 03:37 PM
Aren't ages quite "relative" in the sense that some people are much less physically mature at any given age?

For example, I'm 18 but people think that I look about 14. I also have a rather fast heart rate for my age even though I'm far more physically fit than the average, and have a large (biologically speaking at least ;) ) heart. I've always been like that; when I was in grade 9 I was about 5 feet tall and 75 lbs and now, probably NOT fully grown, i'm 5'9", 145.
Conversely there are also 14 year-olds who look like they're in their 20s. Both my parents look very young for their ages also.

So I'd think that one person's body at 29 (for ex.) is not necessarily in the same physical strength as another's. It's just genetics I think. Some people seem to age slower. That's probably part of the reason why some live into their 100s and others die 30 years earlier. It's all probably very complicated though...

Ion Beza
April 21st, 2002, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by SupaFly

...
So I'd think that one person's body at 29 (for ex.) is not necessarily in the same physical strength as another's.
...

True. Saying now that age 29 is prime years for male swimming, is a general statement; it is a new stereotype for many competitors, knocking-out the former stereotype of age 22; it is not an individual statement.

In line with my previous examples illustrating that in swimming the physical conditioning triggers improvements, before technical improvements start to matter, I read in the book 'Swimming: Character and Excellence' by Mike Gosman this paragraph written in page 46 by the US sprinter Matt Biondi:
"My loss to Michael Gross in the 200 free at the 1986 World Championships was another big disappointment. But after that loss I became a different swimmer - a better swimmer. I became more dedicated in training. I hadn't been in condition to swim the 200 meter free; I had been training 12,000 meters a day. Losing gave me the inspiration and desire to train harder. Instead of training 12,000 meters a day, I began training 16,000.".
This example tells me the bulk of improvement in swimming is physical conditioning, while technique is fine-tuning. I think physical conditioning as way of improving most does apply to breastroke too, the most technical stroke amongst the four strokes.
Swimming is foremost a physical conditioning activity rather than a technical skill activity, and the emphasis in the 90s on 'technique' talk, to me it was a scam.

SupaFly
April 21st, 2002, 12:08 PM
I definitely agree that swimming is mostly conditioning. To be right there at the TOP takes both, but otherwise conditioning still goes most of the way.

I bet that if Thorpe were asked to swim head-up freestyle holding rocks in his hands he'd still go ridiculously fast, even though swimming with the head up is technically very wrong, and so is holding clenched fists. I heard that he can kick a :56 for 100 meters. Sure the ankles are flexible and he has good kicking technique but it's essentially just huge power.

There were some guys in the Olympics who came off of their turns "Superman style" with terrible streamline and hardly even kicked before surfacing. No matter, they're still in the Olympics! It seems to me that they're just extremely strong in the water from awesome conditioning.

Ion Beza
April 21st, 2002, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by SupaFly
I definitely agree that swimming is mostly conditioning.
...
I bet that if Thorpe were asked to swim head-up freestyle holding rocks in his hands he'd still go ridiculously fast, even though swimming with the head up is technically very wrong, and so is holding clenched fists. I heard that he can kick a :56 for 100 meteres. Sure the ankles are flexible and he has good kicking technique but it's essentially just huge power.
...

This alone is proof of swimming being a physical activity before being a technical skill activity.
An unexperimented swimmer, with not many blood vessels connecting the legs and the heart, would need a heart rate of 160 beats per minute to pump oxygen into the legs when kicking, through the few blood vessels the new swimmers has. With an untrained heart not sustaining for long 160 beats per minute, the kicking would end up as a pathetic try for a few seconds only. It happens all the time at any YMCA near you.
Ian Thorpe (Aus.) with lots of blood vessels connecting the legs and the heart through aerobic development, would easily need way less than 160 beats per minute to pump oxygen into the legs' muscles he built, when kicking in much more impressive effort. With a trained heart, 160 beats per minute, that's a piece of cake for Ian Thorpe.
It was reported in www.swiminfo.com that in a near-100% kicking effort, with heart rate in the 200 beats per minute, Ian Thorpe was doing 5 x 100 meter kick in a 50 meter pool, leaving every 5:00, and coming in 1:01.
Olympian Tom Wilkens (US) is said to achieve and hold 210 beats per minute when swimming a sub 4:19 400 meter IM; artificially raising the heart rate into the 200s in a unfit person even for a few seconds and not for 4:20 like in Tom Wilkens case, would quickly give that person a heart attack.
Achieving this cardiovascular physical fitness, that is what ranks swimming along with cross-country skiing and marathon running, physically and not skill-wise at the top of all fitness sports.

SupaFly
May 2nd, 2002, 11:34 PM
29 seems a little old... If you look at the competitors in the Olympics there are very few that old, and probably only a couple are actually setting records (I just know of Mark Foster). I thought that the peak of muscular power in men is on average at 24 years of age.

Ion Beza
May 3rd, 2002, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by SupaFly
29 seems a little old... If you look at the competitors in the Olympics there are very few that old, and probably only a couple are actually setting records (I just know of Mark Foster). I thought that the peak of muscular power in men is on average at 24 years of age.
Supa,
Josh Davis (US) born in 1972, Alex Popov (Rus) born in 1971, Mark Foster (GBR) born in 1970, and Franck Esposito (Fra) born in 1971 set records at ages 28, almost 29, 30, and 31.
Others like John Miranda (US), Ron Karnaugh (US), Sven Lodziewski (Ger), Zoltan Szilagyi (Hun, born in 1967, he swam in 2000 at age 33, a 400 meter in a 50 meter pool in 3:57.66, good for rank 95 in the world), Jure Bucar (Slo, born in 1966, he swam in 2000 at age 34, a 400 meter in a 50 meter pool in 3:57.74, good for rank 96 in the world) keep up with top world-class competition while in their mid thirties.
This is a ground-breaking trend: supported by money allowing them to avoid jobs, these full-time swimmers push the limits of peak physical maturity at an age close to 30; new knowledge is driven from them.

The tendency for physical maturity happens in Masters Swimming also, albeit it is hampered by the fact that the adults in Masters Swimming have jobs to support their lives since competitions in Masters Swimming don't pay anything yet: for example, last year in a 50 meter competition for the 200 meter free-style, Paul Smith (US) age 42 swam 1:58.61 and Paul Carter (US) age 44 swam 1:59.36. Even though these are not their lifetime bests, it is worth noticing that these age records were done by people with full-time jobs, family, training in their forties, while it took Donald Schollander (US) of age 18 in 1964 a full-time training to set the then World Record of just under 2:00.

It is a ground-breaking trend indeed, the pushing of physical maturity limits...

Ion Beza
June 26th, 2002, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

...
It is a ground-breaking trend indeed, the pushing of physical maturity limits...

The news don't let me off the hook on this:

1) In Olympic-caliber swimming, Sven Lodziewski (Ger) born in 1965 like Matt Biondi (US), is ranked so far for the year 2002, #57 in the world, with a 50.92 in 100 meter free in a 50 meter pool.

2) In Masters Swimming short course yards, Ron Johnson (US), Don Hill (US) and Graham Johnston (RSA) recently swam in the 58 for 100 free, at ages 71.

3) www.swiminfo.com reports today that Paul Carter (US) age 44 just did in a 50 meter pool, a 100 meter butterfly in 56.72, not that much behind 54.40 swam in the same race by 18 years old, 6'5", high-shool sensation and Yougoslavian 2002Olympian who trains in US, Michael Cavic.
Paul Carter wants to swim faster than 56.72, this summer.

These sample news and many more, are unheard of until 2002.

I guess this extreme excellence by 'forever young people', fascinates me.

Phil Arcuni
June 27th, 2002, 01:09 AM
don't forget Dennis Bakers 200 LC fly last week of 2:05.84 at the age of 40, only 1.15s off of Nationals qualifying time!

Ion Beza
June 27th, 2002, 08:41 AM
Originally posted by Phil Arcuni
don't forget Dennis Bakers 200 LC fly last week of 2:05.84 at the age of 40, only 1.15s off of Nationals qualifying time!
No, I won't forget.

That's amazing.
If I could do it, I would do it myself too, but I don't know how.

Steve Ruiter
June 27th, 2002, 05:52 PM
I think I heard on the radio that Greg LeMond just turned 41. Didn't he just win a TdF recently?

Steve Ruiter
June 27th, 2002, 05:58 PM
Oops. I am confusing Lemond and Lance Armstrong.

I don't know how old Lance is, but the guy did beat testicular cancer, which cant make you fell any younger.

Yardbird
June 27th, 2002, 06:40 PM
Lance is 30, just a pup!

cinc3100
June 29th, 2002, 11:22 PM
Then what is the prime age for women. Dana Torres placing in the olympics at 32 years old and Laura Val swimming some events faster in her forties or 50 years old than she did at 18 or 20 years old. I always think that we women can do things sometimes older than the guys. In the old days people thought that swimmers were over at 22 years old because the elite swimmers couldn't stayin the sporanderfor economic reasons, And also Dennis Baker time could have gotten him 3rd place in the 200 meter fly in 1972 for men or be able to beat Mary T Meagher or Misty Hyman and Susie O'Neil at their primes. As for Don Schollander times are from an earlier generation, soex-national level swimmers in their 40's should be able to do faster than he did at 1964.

Tom Ellison
June 30th, 2002, 02:17 AM
As to Thorp's kicking so fast...Gosh, it has NOTHING to do with his POWER...it has to do with his size million feet. :D
Heck, I am shocked he has never been disqualified for using flippers (disguised as his feet).

cinc3100
June 30th, 2002, 11:52 AM
The muscular prime is more 35 years old than 24 years old. In weightlifting and field events in track and field most male and female sports people are into their late 20's to mid 30's. Swimming depends less on muscular strength than those sports. That's why you have 12 year old girls that can qualify for nationals being only 5' tall and weighting less than 100 pounds.

Ion Beza
June 30th, 2002, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by cinc310
Then what is the prime age for women. Dana Torres placing in the olympics at 32 years old...

She was 33, almost 34.
However, in the summer of 2000, San Francisco Chronicle had an article about Olympians, one of them being Dara Torres, who were taking legal supplements under medical supervision giving the benefits of illegal products. It was to the tune of products of many hundreds of dollars per month.

Originally posted by cinc310

...
and Laura Val swimming some events faster in her forties or 50 years old than she did at 18 or 20 years old.
...

I know. That's awesome.

Originally posted by cinc310

...
I always think that we women can do things sometimes older than the guys.
...

Like what?

Originally posted by cinc310

...
As for Don Schollander times are from an earlier generation, soex-national level swimmers in their 40's should be able to do faster than he did at 1964.
Still, it shows a tremendous evolution in performance for pioneers, so that followers can follow to a degree.

Ion Beza
June 30th, 2002, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by cinc310

...
Swimming depends less on muscular strength than those sports. That's why you have 12 year old girls that can qualify for nationals being only 5' tall and weighting less than 100 pounds.
Swimming depends mainly on cardiovascular, which in swimming is the ability of the heart to send oxygen from lungs into swimming specific (not weightlifting specific) muscles.
Medical studies rank in order cross-coutry skiiing, swimming and marathon running as the sports developing the most cardiovascular, "...as measured by maximal oxygen uptake tests." writes a paper, amongst all sports.

Ion Beza
July 3rd, 2002, 09:08 PM
Karolyi Guttler from Hungary, at age 34, just went 1:02.09 in 100 meter breastrke, in a 50 meter pool.

This is worth 970 FINA points, on a scale where 1,000 FINA points is close to a world record at Olympic level.
It is also worth a top 20 ranking in the world, but the year is not finished yet, so it's early to be able to tell.

I think Guttler will push for faster than that, next month in the European championships in Berlin (Ger).

I knew for longtime that people from Hungary, Romania -where I grew- are tough minded, as one can see in Olympic disciplines.

cinc3100
July 3rd, 2002, 11:29 PM
That's cool that he went 1:02 at that age. I think that his time would have won the 100 meter breastoke at the 1972 olympics. Another older male is Chad Carvin the freestyler from Mission Viejo. He is the last swimmer at Mission to fair well in International competitions. Chad is now 28 years old.

Ion Beza
July 4th, 2002, 11:52 AM
Yes, I know about Carvin for years.
In recent years he is being outtouched in Olympics, World Championships, by a younger than him fellow countryman of mine, Romania, named Coman, albeit both are at an astronomical level of performance.

Cynthia, are you coming next month to compete Long Course in Cleveland, Ohio?
I will do that.

cinc3100
July 4th, 2002, 07:09 PM
I will not be at Cleveland. I'm going to a little meet in Tucson. Maybe next year I'll go to the Nationals in Tempa Arizona. I have not swam in a meet since 1977 at the Southern California Community College Championships. They did not have state for Women then.

cinc3100
August 28th, 2002, 11:52 PM
Ion made a comment about the prime age for male swimmers. But what about female swimmers. In the olden days, most people thought that female swimmers were wash up usually around 18 and 20 years old. Now some of them swim at a higher level longer than the men do at an older age. For example, the oldest woman on the pan-pacific team is Jenny Thompson at 29 years old. The oldest guy on the us sqaud is Chad Carvin at 28 years old. Yet, Jenny is still performing at a higher level than Chad is. She won the 50 meter freestyle at the pan-pacfics, while Chad only placed on the relay. So, is it possible that some woman especially at the masters level can compete at a higher level than men, just look at Laura Val who is over 50 years old.

Ion Beza
August 29th, 2002, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by cinc310

...
Yet, Jenny is still performing at a higher level than Chad is. She won the 50 meter freestyle at the pan-pacfics, while Chad only placed on the relay. So, is it possible that some woman especially at the masters level can compete at a higher level than men, just look at Laura Val who is over 50 years old.
This "...higher level..." is relative to the range of what are good performances by women.

In absolute times, the top men do swim faster than the top women.

For example, at Pan Pacific Games, 29 years old Jenny Thompson just swam a lifetime best of 25.15 -I think- in 50 meter free, which as an absolute time for international competition for men, is so-so.
A Master swimmer, Paul Smith (US), age 43, last year did 24.74 in 50 meter free, while first holding a family and full time work, then part-time swimming.

A top time for an older man, scoring more FINA points in the men category than Jenny Thompson's 25.15 does in the women category, is 1:01.3x -I think, worth about 990 FINA points- in 100 meter breastroke Long Course, by Karoly Guttler (Hun), age 34, in this month' European Championships.
That's way more FINA points, than 25.15 in women does, and he is age 34, not 29.
His performance and the 3:57.74 in 400 meter free by Jure Bucar (Slo) in 2000 at age 34, are the highest international level attained by older people, that I am aware of.

At Masters level, in distance, Jim McConica (US), just swam 17.27.xx in 1500 meter free.
Other Masters men's times are in this range.
These absolute Masters men times, overtake women's Masters times.

Men and women have different hormones, different performances, and different races to do.

cinc3100
August 29th, 2002, 12:05 PM
I'm not talking about times. But that she is able to compete against girls and women younger than her. But the gap has drop in times. But men will have faster times because of upper-body strength.

ShinobDood
August 29th, 2002, 02:23 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ion Beza

4) I was smiling in the year 1999 when training in New York made me see this woman doing way more than 50% of her workouts on technique drills, and me less than 10% of my workouts on technique drills, yet I would be blazing past her in any straight swim.



Yeah..... nice. So... there is a lady doin some drills... and you're just kickin her ass? Right on. Dood... Either that lady was prolly on the Synchro team... or you blazed past somebody practicing a couple drills over in lane 1.

Shionb - out

cinc3100
August 29th, 2002, 03:41 PM
I'm not talking about guys and gals beating each other in practice. I can beat a guy in his mid thirties in a public pool that I lap swim in and I'm in my mid-40's. But of course I swam as a teenager many years ago and he probably didn't swim on a team when he was younger. I'm talking about women who are doing good times for their ages compared to younger women. Jenny Thompson in elite USA swimming and people like Laura Val in masters. They are disproving the myth that women can not swim good times for them past 21 years old.

Phil M.
August 29th, 2002, 04:00 PM
Whether it be Male or Female it all boils down to motivation, skill, and probably some technique drills. As I understand it Ion has been working on his stroke this summer. If he sticks with the stroke drills he will soon find that he will get better with age. If these drills aren't painful/macho enough he can always hold his breath.

MegSmath
August 29th, 2002, 04:12 PM
I think it's dubious to take Jenny Thompson and Laura Val and use them to make generalizations about the performance of Masters swimmers, women swimmers, or any other swimming subset you can come up with. They are not typical swimmers by any stretch of the imagination. What both Jenny and Laura demonstrate is that someone who is an elite swimmer to begin with can remain an elite swimmer by continuing to train very hard long past the age when most people become couch potatoes. I am in awe of both of them, but we shouldn't use them as measuring sticks for everybody.

cinc3100
August 29th, 2002, 06:18 PM
I agree with you that Jenny and Laura are exceptions to the rule. But back in the 1970's women were thought to be in their prime between 16 to 19 years old. Few were on the olympic team past 20 years old back in those days. I think that if you and I had swam masters in our 20's, that we could have swam a time faster than we did as a teenager. But I quit swimming after community college and got a job. Also, at the time I stop swimming competitvely, masters swimming was 25 years and older. Also, there are exceptions are the men side as well. Michael Phelps isn't the only teenage youngster doing work class times before age 18 in the other strokes besides distance freestyle. There is a 13 year old boy from eastern europe that swims 200 meter breastroke under 2:20 and an american kid at 14 years old making nationals for 200 meter breastroke and is a boy.

cinc3100
August 29th, 2002, 08:21 PM
Well, I don't know about Ion doing better,but since working out about an hour 4 to 5 days versus only workout for 2 to 3 days at 30 mintues, my stokes feel the best since age 20. It remains to be seen if I can swim better at a meet next time.

Ion Beza
August 29th, 2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by cinc310
I'm not talking about times. But that she is able to compete against girls and women younger than her.
...

The www.swimnews.com web site's section on 'Rankings' is not available at the moment, so my post is from the top of my head.
What I write now, can be checked later on, in www.swimnews.com, section 'Rankings'.

The equalizer of gender specific performances, is the system of FINA points, as opposed to absolute times -which are faster for top men than for top women-:
the world record for women in 50 meter free is about 24.32 by Inge de Bruijn (Ned) worth about 1,000 FINA points in the women category;
the same time in the men category is around 850 FINA points.

For people over the age of 30:

the most FINA points by a woman is by Dara Torres (US) in the year 2000 at age 33. Her 50 meter free in 24.7x is worth about 970 FINA points;

the most FINA points by a man is by Alex Popov (Rus), last year at age 30, in 50 meter free at 21.91 and 1,000 FINA points;

Karoly Gutler (Hun), a man, did swim three weeks ago a 100 meter breastroke in 1:01.3x, worth in excess of 980 FINA points; he is 34 years old and he competes against a 13 year old Hungarian boy who did a 2:16 in 200 meter breastroke, which you noticed in "There is a 13 year old boy from eastern europe that swims 200 meter breastroke under 2:20...".

It is you Cynthia, who wrote that older women "...compete at a higher level than men.", giving the example of Pan Pacific games and Jenny Thompson who swam individually at age 29, while Chad Carvin swam in a relay;
this is a gender war, that I counteract with examples of top men.

Dara Torres, Alex Popov, Karoly Guttler, and everyone I mentioned in this thread, they are upholding exceptional standards of longer prime years than ever before, as it is expressed in the post below.

Originally posted by MegSmath

...
What both Jenny and Laura demonstrate is that someone who is an elite swimmer to begin with can remain an elite swimmer by continuing to train very hard long past the age when most people become couch potatoes.
...

cinc3100
August 29th, 2002, 10:29 PM
No one in the 1970's would think that any women could swim decent passed 25 years old. The theory is that they peak younger on average than guys, so they are going to be reaching their peak much earlier. There are some men that also swim better older but others do not, like some women don't. I remember a teenage sensation whose name was Rick Demont. He could have won two gold medals in the olympics if they didn't take his medal away and prohibtioning him from swimming the 1500 meter freestyle. He was just 16 years old at the time. By 1975 and 1976, Tim Shaw and Brain Goodell took his place. Thanks goodness Ion that there is a little more money in the sport, so both men and women can afford to do it at top levels at older ages. Also, that there is masters around for those of us that were a long ways from the top, so we can compete as young adults and middle aged people and seniors.

Ion Beza
August 30th, 2002, 12:15 AM
I post in order to emphasize this:


Originally posted by cinc310

...
Thanks goodness Ion that there is a little more money in the sport, so both men and women can afford to do it at top levels at older ages.
...

Exactly.

Originally posted by cinc310

...Also, that there is masters around for those of us that were a long ways from the top, ...
...

Also for late starters like me:
I met lots of swimmers who would give me the excuse for not persisting by saying that being late starters meant they couldn't achieve much, until I told them that I learned swimming at age 25.

Originally posted by cinc310

...so we can compete as young adults and middle aged people and seniors.
Yes.

cinc3100
August 30th, 2002, 01:16 AM
So, you learn that late to swim. I got to learn a little from my dad at 6 years old at the mobile home park pool and then every summer until 11 years old I learn at the municipal pool. Then at 11 years old I learned butterfly at a private swim school, and working out on a novice team just before my 12th birthday. Anyway, I didn't end up being the swimmer my dad wanted as a kid. He tried when I was 14 years old switching to a team like Huntington Beach that had elite age group swimmers like Shirley Babashoff. The last AAU team I was on was in-between the novice and elite team. The last two years I only workout during the community college season. So late starters shouldn't be that discouarge, there are a lot of ex-age groupers that never qualified for either senior nationals and even JR nationals. The last team I was on wanted to put a relay together for JR nationals but the coach stated that my Fly had to be a couple seconds faster for us to go, so we didn't go.

Mark in MD
August 30th, 2002, 02:12 PM
Hey Cynthia,

Here's another one for you. I recently heard of a story about which a former runner who joined a local Masters team because he was tired of running. So he decided he would like to try competitive swimming as a change of pace. It seems that he's doing darned good so far and keeps up pretty well with the rest of the group for his age. Oops! Did I forget to mention his age? I undersrand that he's 80 or thereabout. This certainly supports Ion's last post, to my way of thinking.

cinc3100
August 30th, 2002, 10:12 PM
Well, I do have to give credit to some older gentlemen. I think that the oldest person to swim 200 butterfly is a man who was in his early 90's. No woman I think has done that yet at that age. I don't know who has the most swimmers in the 95 plus age group. Granted, women live between 5 to 3 years longer than most men in most western and Japanese countries, yet I think that there is a few older gentlemen in masters in the 95 plus age bracket. Anway, I got mad at the TV for putting baseball in place of the US nationals. No wonder we don't get respect. And rememeber us women were treated as second class for a long time in sports until the mid-1970's. So many people in their 60's are probably going to have more guys try sports in their senior years since women in that age group where not encouarge as much when they were younger. Getting out of swimming for a little while. You probably read the Robert Graves novels I Claudius and Claudius the god or watch the BBC series based on it. Remember Livia finished at the finished line of life after Augustus and according to Graves and his source Tactius she was setting up Tiberius to rule Rome by poison. Us Women find a way to get ahead of things by our own methods.

Mark in MD
September 1st, 2002, 08:25 PM
So, Cynthia, perhaps Caesar didn't write Veni, Vidi, Vici, but could it have been a woman, instead? :D In all honesty, I don't disagree wtih your last post, either.

cinc3100
September 1st, 2002, 10:37 PM
Maybe, he got that expression Veni, Vidi, Vici, from Cleopatria the seven, last of the ptolemies. BUt she was a Greek, and most greeks in those days didn't like to learn latin. Plutrach in the life of Antony said she knew several languages, so maybe she learn latin like the Roman upper class also learn greek. Caesar said it in his victory over Pharnaces I think in 47 B.C