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ElaineK
August 22nd, 2014, 04:06 PM
After resisting my coach's suggestion to learn butterfrog, I am finally relenting and taking the advice of King Frog, Nadine Day, and my team's relay coach, Donna Hooe. I can swim a legal butterfly forever (well, 2,000 yards non-stop that I know of), but it's slow. I would like to improve my times on both 200 fly and 400 IM, so my goal is to learn a legal (and good!) butterfrog.

I saw instant positive improvements in my stroke count and 200-pace, 25-yard split. What used to be a 10-stroke 25 yard butterfly is now 8 strokes, and my time at 200 pace dropped almost two seconds. I have only practiced this for a few hundred yards, so I have a long way to go to getting it right!

First of all, the undulation is missing, and I need to get the feel for it. I also notice that I'm not getting completely around on recovery and my wrists are bending on entry. In time, I'm sure I can work these out.

Is this butterfrog legal? What suggestions do you have on how to improve? King Frog, I would especially appreciate your feedback as always! :agree:

Topside-
http://youtu.be/0yVfdN5CcXY

Thanks flyers and frogs!

ElaineK
August 22nd, 2014, 04:08 PM
Here's an underwater video of my butterfrog:
http://youtu.be/oksplhwCtqk?list=UUXrk6uAjhPGxikzYl_yMGWQ

Allen Stark
August 22nd, 2014, 05:08 PM
It certainly looks legal to me.Your timing looks good.You are bringing your arms too far down after the recovery,before you start the pull.This slows you down by getting you out of streamline.

ElaineK
August 22nd, 2014, 08:51 PM
It certainly looks legal to me.Your timing looks good.You are bringing your arms too far down after the recovery,before you start the pull.This slows you down by getting you out of streamline.

King Frog, I can always count on you being the first to come help this tadpole. Thanks! :D It looks like my first goal has been accomplished: a legal butterfrog. :banana: As for the arms coming too far down, where have I heard that before? :rolleyes:Between my breaststroke and fly/frog, my arms sure like taking a dive! Now I have both strokes to work on getting those arms closer to the surface. :bouncing: Thanks for the advice! :agree:

geochuck
August 23rd, 2014, 11:34 AM
If your eyes are on the Olympics DON'T DO IT. If its an old foggy race by all means do it.

ElaineK
August 23rd, 2014, 03:27 PM
:lmao:Olympics? I'm 52 and slow!

Betsy
August 24th, 2014, 02:30 PM
It's interesting (and good) how much undulation you get. Most people using the breast kick on fly seem to go up and down too much. You are getting forward motion from the undulation. Great videos, very clear.

ElaineK
August 24th, 2014, 03:54 PM
It's interesting (and good) how much undulation you get. Most people using the breast kick on fly seem to go up and down too much. You are getting forward motion from the undulation. Great videos, very clear.
Wow, thanks, Betsy! :D That's encouraging news, and I appreciate your feedback.
As for Bruce's videos, he's getting pretty good at it! :banana: He used to have to bend down on this knees and dunk the camera underwater while holding onto it; but, I rigged up a more comfortable option for him. The camera is now on a mount that is attached to a pvc pipe, so he can stand on deck while filming me, and just turn the pipe.

ElaineK
August 27th, 2014, 06:08 PM
I found this buttefrog video on Youtube. Why wouldn't Terry put a dolphin kick in between the frog kicks? Should I do it this way instead?

http://youtu.be/xW_d3XpXltY

Allen Stark
August 27th, 2014, 08:10 PM
I found this buttefrog video on Youtube. Why wouldn't Terry put a dolphin kick in between the frog kicks? Should I do it this way instead?
[video=youtube_share;xW_d3XpXltY]http://youtu.be/xW_d3XpXlt

I find I do better with a dolphin kick also,similar to what you do.

ElaineK
August 27th, 2014, 08:22 PM
I find I do better with a dolphin kick also,similar to what you do.

I don't see the benefit in NOT doing a dolphin kick, so I'll stick with what I'm doing and work on improving it. I'm trying to keep my arms closer to the surface and keep my head between my biceps, so Bruce is is going to shoot more video so I can get that needed feedback.

momof5
August 27th, 2014, 10:26 PM
I'm curious about this butter frog thing. :) I had never heard about it until I got on this board (keep in mind, I'm new here). What is the benefit of doing it? Is it a drill or a legal stroke? Just wondering if I should give it a shot. Thanks!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Allen Stark
August 28th, 2014, 12:43 AM
Butterfrog is legal in Masters meets,but not in USA-Swimming meets.My regular butterfly is faster than my butterfrog for about 75 yd,but that is the point at which I have to lengthen my stroke or I run the risk of "going vertical".At that point butterfrog is faster for me than my longer stroke butterfly.If you have a reasonably good breaststroke kick,the extra thrust of the kick helps keep your hips up so you are at less risk of going vertical. Butterfrog is much faster for me in a 200 fly than regular butterfly is.If you can keep a good rhythm going for 200 yd regular fly,then butterfrog is not for you,but for us mere mortals it might be worth a try,YMMV.

thewookiee
August 28th, 2014, 06:44 AM
Terry doesn't use the fly kick, according to him, because he feels his lower back is to stiff to have any benefit. He was demonstrating butterfrog to a group of us and was asked that question about the fly kick.

DeniseMW
August 28th, 2014, 08:40 AM
What does he mean by "sneaky breath?" When I try the butterfly, I usually wind up horizontal and with a mouth full of water after about four strokes. He also has a pretty narrow fly kick and I wonder mine has so little power because I'm taking it too wide and not snapping hard enough.

Elaine, I have to say, you are amazing. You inspire me. And Bruce is a treasure.

ElaineK
August 28th, 2014, 06:42 PM
Terry doesn't use the fly kick, according to him, because he feels his lower back is to stiff to have any benefit. He was demonstrating butterfrog to a group of us and was asked that question about the fly kick.

Thanks, Wookiee, I appreciate you solving that puzzle for me. It makes sense now!


What does he mean by "sneaky breath?" When I try the butterfly, I usually wind up horizontal and with a mouth full of water after about four strokes. He also has a pretty narrow fly kick and I wonder mine has so little power because I'm taking it too wide and not snapping hard enough.

Elaine, I have to say, you are amazing. You inspire me. And Bruce is a treasure.

What I think he means by "sneaky breath" is to not lift your head up to breath. Check out a video of Michael Phelps swimming fly and you will see that he juts his jaw forward to get a breath rather than lifting his head up. He gets a quick breath and gets his head right back down. If you lift your head up, it will push the rest of your body to go lower in the water. As a result, your body will have a vertical tilt rather than staying horizontal.

If you can get somebody to shoot video of your fly and post it, we can help you out here on the forums with some tips on how to improve it.

Meanwhile, my "treasure" :angel: shot more video of my fly today, and I'm hoping it's improvement over the previous posted video. By the way, Bruce says "thanks" and appreciated your compliment. :D I agree with you, of course! As for me being "amazing," I don't know about that, but if you think so, thanks! :blush:

Here's my new (hopefully improved) version of butterfrog:

http://youtu.be/PHXfVMUTNAM

chowmi
August 29th, 2014, 02:52 PM
For those that want to know more about butterfrog:

http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf USMS rulebook does not explicitly say whether additional dolphin kicks may be used or not, but IMO if it doesn't say it's ILegal, then be definition, it's legal! It can look weird, odd, strange and Whatwazthat?! and still be legal, if the official cannot find a clear reason for it to be illegal.

See also 2014 USA Rulebook - see section Differences Between USA and USMS on starting on page 165

http://www.usaswimming.org/_Rainbow/Documents/00b913aa-b3d1-4345-a201-6071745f46dd/2014%20Rule%20Book.pdf

MS1.2 Butterfly. The breaststroke or whip kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with
the dolphin kick at any time during the race (for example, one breaststroke kick and multiple dolphin
kicks may be used with each arm pull). Only one breaststroke or whip kick is permitted per
arm pull except that a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted prior to the turn and finish without
an arm pull. After the start and after each turn, a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted
prior to the arm pull that brings the swimmer to the surface. [USMS 101.3.2 and 101.3.3]

Has anyone tried inserting a breast kick on the underwater pushoff and/or dive?

Allen Stark
August 29th, 2014, 03:03 PM
For those that want to know more about butterfrog:

http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf USMS rulebook does not explicitly say whether additional dolphin kicks may be used or not, but IMO if it doesn't say it's ILegal, then be definition, it's legal! It can look weird, odd, strange and Whatwazthat?! and still be legal, if the official cannot find a clear reason for it to be illegal.

See also 2014 USA Rulebook - see section Differences Between USA and USMS on starting on page 165

http://www.usaswimming.org/_Rainbow/Documents/00b913aa-b3d1-4345-a201-6071745f46dd/2014%20Rule%20Book.pdf

MS1.2 Butterfly. The breaststroke or whip kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with
the dolphin kick at any time during the race (for example, one breaststroke kick and multiple dolphin
kicks may be used with each arm pull). Only one breaststroke or whip kick is permitted per
arm pull except that a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted prior to the turn and finish without
an arm pull. After the start and after each turn, a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted
prior to the arm pull that brings the swimmer to the surface. [USMS 101.3.2 and 101.3.3]

Has anyone tried inserting a breast kick on the underwater pushoff and/or dive?
I do. Off the dive I do 2 dolphin kicks,a whip kick,a dolphin kick and then surface.On the turns I try to do dolphin kick,whip kick,dolphin kick,surface.

ElaineK
August 29th, 2014, 05:16 PM
For those that want to know more about butterfrog:

http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf USMS rulebook does not explicitly say whether additional dolphin kicks may be used or not, but IMO if it doesn't say it's ILegal, then be definition, it's legal! It can look weird, odd, strange and Whatwazthat?! and still be legal, if the official cannot find a clear reason for it to be illegal.

See also 2014 USA Rulebook - see section Differences Between USA and USMS on starting on page 165

http://www.usaswimming.org/_Rainbow/Documents/00b913aa-b3d1-4345-a201-6071745f46dd/2014%20Rule%20Book.pdf

MS1.2 Butterfly. The breaststroke or whip kick may be used exclusively or interchangeably with
the dolphin kick at any time during the race (for example, one breaststroke kick and multiple dolphin
kicks may be used with each arm pull). Only one breaststroke or whip kick is permitted per
arm pull except that a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted prior to the turn and finish without
an arm pull. After the start and after each turn, a single breaststroke or whip kick is permitted
prior to the arm pull that brings the swimmer to the surface. [USMS 101.3.2 and 101.3.3]

Has anyone tried inserting a breast kick on the underwater pushoff and/or dive?

Thanks, chowmi! Before seeing this post, I had e-mailed my teammate, Ed Saltzman (Chief Official at USMS Nationals) asking if my butterfrog was legal. This was his reply:
Yes; that is a legal use of the frog kick during butterfly.
Just remember - at the start and after each turn; if you start with a dolphin kick, the first arm pull must bring you to the surface.
You don't get 15m underwater. Also - one frog kick per arm pull - you can use multiple dolphin kicks intermingled, but only one frog kick per stroke.

Ed

orca1946
August 29th, 2014, 07:31 PM
My br kick if really bad, so I'm sticking with the reg. fly kick. If this works for you --- go for it. It seems to be legal from the rules I have read.

ElaineK
August 29th, 2014, 07:58 PM
My br kick if really bad, so I'm sticking with the reg. fly kick. If this works for you --- go for it. It seems to be legal from the rules I have read.

I'm a frog (well, just a tadpole compared to King Frog :D ), so my breaststroke kick is better than my dolphin kick. Butterfrog cuts two strokes and two seconds off my 25 at 200 pace.

chowmi
August 30th, 2014, 09:47 AM
I do. Off the dive I do 2 dolphin kicks,a whip kick,a dolphin kick and then surface.On the turns I try to do dolphin kick,whip kick,dolphin kick,surface.


EXCELLENT! I am going to try to insert the breast kick and time a quasi underwater pull IMMEDIATELY connected to the recovery. Maybe get a bonus fly kick as well. I wonder if I can get some good forward propulsion if I connect the breast kick and surge into the 1st arm pull.

ElaineK
August 30th, 2014, 02:21 PM
King Frog, will you please refresh my memory on the FINA Masters World Championships? Did FINA recognize butterfrog as legal for Masters competitions? Thanks!

Allen Stark
August 30th, 2014, 03:17 PM
King Frog, will you please refresh my memory on the FINA Masters World Championships? Did FINA recognize butterfrog as legal for Masters competitions? Thanks!

Yes.If my shoulder hadn't have been acting up,I'd have swum the 200 fly at Worlds butterfrog.

ElaineK
August 30th, 2014, 03:43 PM
Yes.If my shoulder hadn't have been acting up,I'd have swum the 200 fly at Worlds butterfrog.

That's what I thought- thanks!

ElaineK
September 15th, 2014, 04:35 AM
If your eyes are on the Olympics DON'T DO IT. If its an old foggy race by all means do it.

Well, George, in the end, I decided NOT to swim butterfrog in Saturday's ironman pentathlon. After racing the sprint pentathlon the last four years at the Southside Seals Pentathlon meet, I decided to go big and enter the ironman. I wanted to do it without an asterisk after my name (or in my own memory), so I raced the 400 IM (first race) and 200 fly (last race) all fly. All five races were completed in 21/4 hours-- and, without a DQ. :D

I do, however, plan to try butterfrog at a future meet! ;)