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orca1946
December 5th, 2014, 05:18 PM
OK--- So here is the latest in explaining when we can do a dolphin kick & not get DQ'ed !!:badday:
We can do it like the Olympics:bow: swimmers!!
Oz Osborne

OK Now the Latest Official rule is :
Emergency Rule Change: Breaststroke
Modification in timing of breaststroke kick effective now!!

FINA changed the breaststroke kick rule November 29, 2014, at an extraordinary Congress in Doha, Qatar. USA Swimming automatically adopted that rule change November 30, 2014. USMS automatically adopted the breaststroke kick rule change in accordance with USMS 601.4.7B as of December 2, 2014. The amendment to the USMS breaststroke kick rule 101.2.3 is effective immediately.
Following is the text of the amended breaststroke kick rule:
"101.2.3 Kick-After the start and after each turn, at any time prior to the first breaststroke kick, a single butterfly (dolphin) kick is permitted, following which, all movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement.
The feet must be turned outwards during the propulsive part of the kick. Scissors, alternating movements, or downward butterfly (dolphin) kicks are not permitted except as provided herein. Breaking the surface of the water with the feet is allowed unless followed by a downward butterfly (dolphin) kick."
What this rule change means for swimmers and officials:
A visible separation of the hands initiating the arm pull is no longer required before the single butterfly (dolphin) kick that may be taken after the start and after each turn. A single butterfly (dolphin) kick is permitted at any time after the start or after pushing off the wall on each turn and before the first breaststroke kick.
For any questions contact: Kathy Casey, Chair, USMS Rules Committee.

Allen Stark
December 5th, 2014, 06:37 PM
So now I don't have to worry that the judge may not see my hand separation before the kick.I guess I am glad USMS acted so fast,but I'd have preferred them to have waited until 1/1/15 so that everyone would have swum SCM under the same rules.

Allen Stark
December 5th, 2014, 06:42 PM
Just to clarify,you cannot,as some have suggested,swim dolphin kick,breaststroke kick and then pull.In BR the pull must precede the BR kick.You can swim dolphin kick, pull, BR kick,or pulldown and dolphin kick at the same time and then BR kick,or pulldown,then dolphin kick,then BR kick.

orca1946
December 5th, 2014, 07:31 PM
Yeah!!! What he said!!
I saw the Olympians doing this before it was legal & the officials let him/them get away with it so many times & guess they needed to change the rule!

Debugger
December 6th, 2014, 03:30 AM
Just wondering why this serious change is not presented at fina.org in rules section yet?

aztimm
December 8th, 2014, 10:13 AM
Why not just do away with the dolphin kick? Seems like way more trouble than it is worth.

Chris Stevenson
December 8th, 2014, 11:52 AM
Why not just do away with the dolphin kick? Seems like way more trouble than it is worth.

I guess because it was too difficult to judge whether movement of the feet was incidental (due to the pullout) or provided propulsion? Or maybe more accurately: because they didn't want to DQ high-profile breaststrokers in high-profile meets?

It has proven to be a slippery slope, IMO. Because now they are back where they started: someone does an initial kick, then pulls really hard and their feet move a little bit in a manner that is suggestive of a dolphin kick but hard to call. Not to mention the incidental movement of the feet upon the dive entry into the water, followed by the "real" DK, followed by another "accidental" DK after the pull-down.

It makes my head hurt. Personally I think they should just admit defeat and embrace the dark side: as many DKs (and pull-downs) as you want, out to 15m. :-)

orca1946
December 8th, 2014, 01:09 PM
I agree Chris with a look now being at the "2nd" dolphin kick where the 1st one used to be.
How does the new rule eliminate that??

Allen Stark
December 8th, 2014, 07:08 PM
Notice how the swimmers who couldn't do a pull down without doing an undulation suddenly could when they were pushing the envelope with the early dolphin kick. If FINA just had the guts to DQ cheaters at big meets we wouldn't be in this mess.

secondheart
December 8th, 2014, 08:10 PM
Notice how the swimmers who couldn't do a pull down without doing an undulation suddenly could when they were pushing the envelope with the early dolphin kick. If FINA just had the guts to DQ cheaters at big meets we wouldn't be in this mess.

Agree. 2008 Olympics was the tipping point when politics got involved. How about making the "pull down" illegal this would eliminate the confusion of a DK versus a natural hip movement due to the "pull down" ( a pull down is a butterfly stroke). Instead, we have a hybrid fly/breast stoke.

Allen Stark
December 8th, 2014, 08:21 PM
Agree. 2008 Olympics was the tipping point when politics got involved. How about making the "pull down" illegal this would eliminate the confusion of a DK versus a natural hip movement due to the "pull down" ( a pull down is a butterfly stroke). Instead, we have a hybrid fly/breast stoke.

That is a very sensible idea so FINA will never go for it.

orca1946
December 9th, 2014, 12:42 AM
I tried it tonight at swim team practice. I feel as if I go farther but is my speed slowing down at that point?
I really can feel a 2nd DK at the end of the pullout coming on !!!

gobears
December 9th, 2014, 08:17 AM
Notice how the swimmers who couldn't do a pull down without doing an undulation suddenly could when they were pushing the envelope with the early dolphin kick. If FINA just had the guts to DQ cheaters at big meets we wouldn't be in this mess.

I'm with you, Allen. I would actually love to see officials use underwater cameras to DQ illegal dolphin kicks. I'm thinking also about the swimmers that dolphin into the finish and don't get called. I fear that breaststroke is on its way to becoming another version of the underwater dolphin kick stroke that the other strokes have largely become.

Chris Stevenson
December 9th, 2014, 11:35 AM
How about making the "pull down" illegal this would eliminate the confusion of a DK versus a natural hip movement due to the "pull down" ( a pull down is a butterfly stroke).


That is a very sensible idea so FINA will never go for it.

:laugh2:

Also, I think FINA is generally averse to rules that would make times slower, with some notable exceptions (e.g. banning tech suits or the 15m rule).

orca1946
December 9th, 2014, 04:37 PM
AND politicians always regret the wrongs ONLY after they get caught!! So after the BR extra DP swimmers get caught BUT not DQed we change the rule? Interesting eliminating the pullout!! Yeah - slower is hard to go back in time results.

jroddin
December 16th, 2014, 12:57 PM
It makes my head hurt. Personally I think they should just admit defeat and embrace the dark side: as many DKs (and pull-downs) as you want, out to 15m. :-)

Better yet - let's just remove the stroke entirely from the IM!:banana:

Allen Stark
December 16th, 2014, 01:00 PM
Better yet - let's just remove the stroke entirely from the IM!:banana:

Haters gotta hate.

FindingMyInnerFish
December 16th, 2014, 04:52 PM
Better yet - let's just remove the stroke entirely from the IM!:banana:

But there would go the nice symmetry of all four strokes. I'm afraid 75, 150, and 300 IM as events just don't have the same ring. ;)

To be honest, it's hard to visualize all this dolphin, breaststroke kick, etc. just at the moment. Might someone post a video of the

1. Now legal, formerly illegal procedure and the
2. Old legal procedure.

I'd like to actually see what these changes look like on real swimmers. On a computer screen, it's just a little hazy.

I have a selfish motivation here too b/c I want to broaden my stroke repertoire, and I'm looking to the breaststroke as my first non-freestyle stroke to work on. It promises, a. that I'm more likely to avoid collision and b. that I'm less likely (as in butterfly) to turn caterpillar before completing 25 yards.

So I'm not ready to have this useful stroke removed from the rotation. But give me a year or so and I might learn to love butterfly and break out of the breaststroke cocoon.

orca1946
December 16th, 2014, 06:27 PM
Lt's make the I'm 4 strokes of your choice - you must do at least one free & the others you can mix!

secondheart
December 16th, 2014, 08:38 PM
Better yet - let's just remove the stroke entirely from the IM!:banana:
Breast stroke is by far the most difficult stoke to perfect. This is why most so called swimmers :) get frustrated when trying to execute this technical stroke. Also, the butterfly may not exist today if it wasn't for the breast stroke.

FindingMyInnerFish
December 16th, 2014, 11:02 PM
Lt's make the I'm 4 strokes of your choice - you must do at least one free & the others you can mix!

Now THAT could really get interesting--one free, another sidestroke, maybe elementary backstroke, and dog paddle. ;)

It could be the "Free for all" relay.

Allen Stark
December 17th, 2014, 09:07 AM
But there would go the nice symmetry of all four strokes. I'm afraid 75, 150, and 300 IM as events just don't have the same ring. ;)

To be honest, it's hard to visualize all this dolphin, breaststroke kick, etc. just at the moment. Might someone post a video of the

1. Now legal, formerly illegal procedure and the
2. Old legal procedure.

I'd like to actually see what these changes look like on real swimmers. On a computer screen, it's just a little hazy.

I have a selfish motivation here too b/c I want to broaden my stroke repertoire, and I'm looking to the breaststroke as my first non-freestyle stroke to work on. It promises, a. that I'm more likely to avoid collision and b. that I'm less likely (as in butterfly) to turn caterpillar before completing 25 yards.

So I'm not ready to have this useful stroke removed from the rotation. But give me a year or so and I might learn to love butterfly and break out of the breaststroke cocoon.

Here is a good video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ofDYZ8SICU .The first sequence shows an early dolphin and a late dolphin side by side.The rest of the video shows why they changed the rule,as basically all these World Class swimmers were either very nearly illegal,or should have been DQd under the old rule.

orca1946
December 17th, 2014, 10:51 AM
What great video of the diff styles. My team will look at this & learn more than words can say. Thanks.

FindingMyInnerFish
December 17th, 2014, 12:26 PM
Agree--and lots of power in those push-offs!

orca1946
December 17th, 2014, 03:50 PM
My BR kick is very weak from 4 hip operations. I try to get a better flex with my ankles.