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Judester
April 2nd, 2015, 02:51 PM
I need some theories on why this could be true: Assuming that both swimmers are kicking/pulling/swimming freestyle for the same distance with the same effort and without fins and paddles, swimmer A consistently kicks slower than swimmer B and swimmer A consistently pulls slower than swimmer B but swimmer A consistently swims full stroke faster than swimmer B.

The only thing I can think of that might make this true is that swimmer A's body positioning in the water and/or body rotation changes somehow when swimming full stroke and that that change reduces drag but I can't think of what that "somehow" could be. Maybe the rotation that occurs when pulling is making the kick more effective than when only kicking..?

jackback
April 2nd, 2015, 03:10 PM
possibly an earlier catch, not dropping the elbow or longer stroke finish.

DanSad
April 2nd, 2015, 04:04 PM
Speed = Distance Per Stroke X Stroke Rate. Swimmer A has a greater distance per stroke, enough so to outweigh swimmer B's higher stroke rate. The "how" behind why distance per stroke is greater for swimmer A is what you get into in your second paragraph (technique).

arthur
April 2nd, 2015, 04:10 PM
How does swimmer B's pull and swim times compare? If the pull is faster maybe they can improve their body position while swimming full stroke. Swimmer B might also not have proper timing between their kick and pull.

Judester
April 2nd, 2015, 04:27 PM
How does swimmer B's pull and swim times compare? If the pull is faster maybe they can improve their body position while swimming full stroke. Swimmer B might also not have proper timing between their kick and pull.

I never even considered that the problem may be with swimmer B's swim but now that you mention it, that makes sense. On a 100m, swimmer B's pull is about 10 seconds faster than A's pull and swimmer A's swim is about 5 seconds faster than swimmer B's swim.

knelson
April 2nd, 2015, 06:06 PM
possibly an earlier catch, not dropping the elbow or longer stroke finish.

Yeah, but that would show up in the pulling speed, however swimmer B is the faster puller.

I think arthur is correct and it's the sum of the parts. Swimmer A has better body position and less drag when swimming full stroke.

__steve__
April 2nd, 2015, 06:10 PM
Swimmer B might have a technical problem
Swimmer A might be awesome at turns

Jimbosback
April 2nd, 2015, 07:24 PM
I agree, B must be doing something to slow himself down in full stroke.

Sojerz
April 3rd, 2015, 01:16 PM
I agree, B must be doing something to slow himself down in full stroke.
I agree.

It occurred to me when using a pull buoy this morning that swimmer B may be benefiting from better body position and more speed from the pull buoy's floatation. When B is swimming full stroke (without a buoy's floatation), the back end is sinking and creating more drag, even though kicking. If B's times for 100m pulling and full stroke are pretty close, you might conclude it's the buoy creating the better body position when B pulls. You could time both A and B and count strokes (pulling and full stroke) and then compare the data in a excel table to see if it tells a story. Maybe even take time and stroke count splits and compare.

I think there was a USMS article on the web or in Swimmer (or someone like swimspire posted an article) about finding one's balance point when swimming, maybe a year or so back. If that's the problem, it might help B to get "balanced" as when using the buoy.

orca1946
April 4th, 2015, 02:55 PM
Body position AND a better underwater pull can do this quite well.

ForceDJ
April 7th, 2015, 11:35 AM
Does swimmer “A” have bigger hands than swimmer “B” (i.e. natural “paddles”)? Bigger feet? Longer arms/legs?

Dan

ande
April 7th, 2015, 03:01 PM
I need some theories on why this could be true: Assuming that both swimmers are kicking/pulling/swimming freestyle for the same distance with the same effort and without fins and paddles, swimmer A consistently kicks slower than swimmer B and swimmer A consistently pulls slower than swimmer B but swimmer A consistently swims full stroke faster than swimmer B.
The only thing I can think of that might make this true is that swimmer A's body positioning in the water and/or body rotation changes somehow when swimming full stroke and that that change reduces drag but I can't think of what that "somehow" could be. Maybe the rotation that occurs when pulling is making the kick more effective than when only kicking..?

Hi

I live in Martindale and drive through San Marcos every day.

I need to watch swimmers A & B swim to tell you why.

1) first there's the push off, streamline, & glide. Some swimmers push off better than others, streamline better than others and glide further and faster.

2) next there's how each swimmer moves their arms to pull and their legs to kick, some people have better feel for the water than others.
They get more DPS distance per stroke and DPK distance per kick

3) also each swimmer has to drag their torsos through the water, some swimmers are shaped better than others.

4) what kind of suits are swimmers A & B wearing, some suits make us more aquadynamic than others.

Judester
April 7th, 2015, 03:05 PM
Does swimmer “A” have bigger hands than swimmer “B” (i.e. natural “paddles”)? Bigger feet? Longer arms/legs?

No, and in fact, I'm.. I mean swimmer A is a petite (5'0") woman and swimmer B is a tall (6'2") man.

Judester
April 7th, 2015, 03:30 PM
Hi

I live in Martindale and drive through San Marcos every day.

I need to watch swimmers A & B swim to tell you why.

1) first there's the push off, streamline, & glide. Some swimmers push off better than others, streamline better than others and glide further and faster.

2) next there's how each swimmer moves their arms to pull and their legs to kick, some people have better feel for the water than others.
They get more DPS distance per stroke and DPK distance per kick

3) also each swimmer has to drag their torsos through the water, some swimmers are shaped better than others.

4) what kind of suits are swimmers A & B wearing, some suits make us more aquadynamic than others.

You're so close to me, I would love to swim with you some time. I practice in Austin with my club but I also swim on my own in San Marcos from time to time.

I'm starting to think it's an endurance issue. I think swimmer B gets tired sooner on distance swims (100m+) and starts to slow down or compromises his technique which slows him down.

gobears
April 7th, 2015, 08:19 PM
Y

I'm starting to think it's an endurance issue. I think swimmer B gets tired sooner on distance swims (100m+) and starts to slow down or compromises his technique which slows him down.

I notice that a few guys I swim with like to start off really fast and then fade. If we start a long set and they're beating me I usually continue to go my own pace and eventually end I up way ahead. Not sure if it's an "I have to beat that woman" issue or just a pacing issue in general that makes them race the beginning of the set/work out...?

Swimspire
April 7th, 2015, 09:51 PM
No, and in fact, I'm.. I mean swimmer A is a petite (5'0") woman and swimmer B is a tall (6'2") man.

One of the coaches I respected and admired, and who influenced my philosophy on swimming technique told me "there are some tall people who are short swimmers, and some shorter people who are tall swimmers." In other words, if you are more efficient in the water, getting greater distance per stroke without losing momentum, your height sometimes won't matter as much if you are swimming against someone who is inefficient. Bottom line - technique and conditioning combined win the day.

flystorms
April 8th, 2015, 11:14 AM
As I coached last night, I was also watching a kid in the lane next to my Masters. At first, I laughed to myself a bit, seeing this tiny, chunky kid who was obviously a few years younger than the kids he's swimming with in that lane. Then I saw him do some breast and fly. Holy cow, that little guy was passing one of my faster men on the team. Size is deceptive. It's definitely about technique.

orca1946
April 9th, 2015, 11:41 AM
Sign up the young one for a future masters team contract!

loonytick
April 10th, 2015, 12:06 PM
It occurred to me when using a pull buoy this morning that swimmer B may be benefiting from better body position and more speed from the pull buoy's floatation.

It could also be that Swimmer A isn't entirely comfortable with a buoy and alters her posture in a detrimental way or does something funky with her stroke to compensate for the discomfort when using it.

If the kick speeds are measured using kickboard, the same sort of phenomenon could apply.

And to speculate even further, if you have a situation where A is not great at using the gear/isolating the kick and pull AND B is not great at putting them together/swimming without the gear...