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exrunner
March 22nd, 2004, 04:04 PM
Question for Shaky, Ion, any sports nutritionists out there, or whoever else might know the answer:

Suppose that for a period of time I stimulate muscle growth using a conscientious, well-designed program of resistance training. Suppose also that during this period I maintain a steady calorie deficit (say, 500 kcals per day), taking into account the additional energy utilized during exercise. Assuming that I am an "average healthy non-smoking adult male" with a healthful, nutritionally complete diet (except for the energy deficit), which of the following is closer to the truth:

(1) During this period of resistance training and hypocaloric feeding, I will lose fat and gain muscle. I will gain about as much muscle as I would have had I not maintained the calorie deficit.

(2) During this period, I will lose fat. The resistance exercise will help to limit the loss of lean tissue. However, the steady calorie deficit will also limit the increase in muscle mass.

(3) It is impossible to say, since differences between individuals can be great.

Thanks--

Conniekat8
March 22nd, 2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by exrunner

(2) During this period, I will lose fat. The resistance exercise will help to limit the loss of lean tissue. However, the steady calorie deficit will also limit the increase in muscle mass.

Thanks--

This is closest to the truth.
With calorie deficit, your boddy will have a battle for the protein needed for muscle growth, and just having the energy to sustain yourself throughout the day.

If you intend to lose fat and build muscle, the better way to go is to buld muscle first, to a point of overbuilding a little bit, then go on a calorioe restricted diet to lose more fat. You will lose some muscle while dieting.

Also, while building muscle, if you will lose some fat.

aschueler
March 22nd, 2004, 08:25 PM
With calorie deficit, your boddy will have a battle for the protein needed for muscle growth, and just having the energy to sustain yourself throughout the day

Gotta respectfully disagree with that, Connie.

It really depends on where you start calorie-wise and fat-wise.

A thin person with little fat to start with, who is maintaining their weight with a steady state type diet of "X" number of calories is different from a fatter person who is also maintaining their weight at "X" number of calories. Both will build muscle if they start exercising more than they did before, but if you also knock out 500 calories (not that much, but hey it all counts), then the thinner person would potentially build less ADDITIONAL lean mass than the heavier person...but both would still build more muscle mass than before, assuming we aren't talking malnutrition ranges of calorie decrease.

There are even more variables here, including conditioning (a leaner person tends to respond the exercise quicker than a heavier person), blood flow to organs/etc (vascular supply is better in general if you are leaner), other things.

There really isn't a good answer to this question. The question I would need to ask to clarify question #1,

(1) During this period of resistance training and hypocaloric feeding, I will lose fat and gain muscle. I will gain about as much muscle as I would have had I not maintained the calorie deficit

Would be: are you still eating enough calories and raw materials to maintain your current muscle mass? It is not the same for everyone. Chances are, in most cases, you WOULD gain about as much muscle if you had not maintained the calorie deficit, but there is of course a limit, to the point where you cannot repair/reorganize muscle tissue without proper nutrition. Where is that limit? Read the above...it's awfully relative to the individual.

Clear as mud? Good. Sorry, ask me for clarification and I will try!

exrunner
March 22nd, 2004, 11:06 PM
Again, I appreciate your thoughts. I think you're both right.

I looked around the web this evening, and found a couple graphs from related studies:

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/DietExStudy.html

http://www.exrx.net/FatLoss/WTCalLBWStudy.html

With respect to my initial question, these results suggest that compared to resistance training alone, the combination of resistance training plus further calorie restriction results in roughly half the muscle gain (but correspondingly greater fat loss). At least this is true for obese adult women.

For aschueler's clarification, my assumptions are that my diet is nutritionally complete with respect to all micronutrients and protein, the only deficiency being in the total calorie count.

Conniekat8
March 23rd, 2004, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by aschueler


Clear as mud? Good. Sorry, ask me for clarification and I will try!

Actually, we're not that much in disagreement, you've explained some good detail there, and it all applies.

Mary R.
March 23rd, 2004, 07:45 AM
This analysis rings true...since I started swimming (again after many years) combined with lifting weights I have lost almost two dress sizes but it wasn't until I really started to restrict calories that I started to lose weight.

Here is another question: to achieve this effect (maximizing fat loss while incresing lean tissue) does it matter what you eat? That is, how much does the protein/ carbohydrate/ fats mix matter?

Conniekat8
March 23rd, 2004, 12:56 PM
Does it matter what you eat?

Yes, it matters in several ways:

-You need to eat a sufficient amount of protein, or you will not gain or maintain muscle mass.

-You need to eat balanced nutrition so that your body gets plenty of all nutrients it needs. If you start getting depleted in certain nutrients, your body will respond with increased cravings. Where we all tend to get in trouble is that we misinterpret those cravings for hunger, and end up eating too many calories, and still not get the nutrients the body needs.

-as for a balanced diet, something that comes close to the Zone diet works the best for me.

-As you get a the higher athletic range, you will have been researching and paying attention to the detail for a while, and you'll be able to adjust your diet little better to suit your specific activity levels and body type meeds. If you're just starting out, there's no need to immediately start worrying about all the little details.

SWinkleblech
March 23rd, 2004, 03:57 PM
I been back into swimming for about five years. I have lost some weight but not much. Most of the weight I have lost are from training for triathlons during the summer. Two summers ago I lost about 8 lbs and then I decided to get pregant and now I added 15. I am terrible at dieting. I hear a lot about these low carb diets but I love my carbs. Plus I also wonder if a low carb diet is any good for an athlete.

Connie what is this zone diet you mentioned?

aschueler
March 23rd, 2004, 07:14 PM
With respect to my initial question, these results suggest that compared to resistance training alone, the combination of resistance training plus further calorie restriction results in roughly half the muscle gain (but correspondingly greater fat loss). At least this is true for obese adult women.

Okay, I have to kinda squirm a little at this, too.

This study looked at 25 women. The difference in lean body mass was about 1 lb in the two groups. Not at all very different; they don't give any statistical analysis, but I can pretty much guarantee you these are NOT statistically signficant differences, and I would say you cannot make a conclusion one way or the other based on the data.

As far as specific ratios of carbohydrate, protein, fat, etc for optimum performance: you may enter the fray if you like, but I will not. I prefer to step back, say (like Connie) "eat a balanced diet and be done with it". There ain't a consensus out there for what's the best stuff to eat. Probably the answer, 1000 years hence, will be either "everything in balanced amounts" or "if it tastes good don't eat it". You pick.