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Tom Ellison
March 27th, 2004, 04:19 PM
I think it is sad we have slipped down the slope we call “being civil”. Being away from these posts for the better part of a week has allowed me to look at them in a different light then before. The thoughts and feelings of many of the people who post here are very raw right now. Decency, understanding, compassion, patience and kindness have been lost to pain and anger.

I have learned some very valuable lessons over the past nineteen months. Often, anger is directly driven by pain. I read pain into many of the post here. People have offended one another and tramped on each others toes and people have been hurt emotionally.

Gosh, I am the farthest thing from a counselor or referee for that matter, but I am qualified to say that each of us has good days, and each of us has bad days. Without exception, EVERY SINGLE POSTER was decent, understanding and compassionate towards me during a very tough time in my life. Ion has a way of invoking anger and hostility in people. Having said that, he reached out to me during a very tough time and demonstrated a very different and compassionate side then the one we see here.

My point, in the final annalists we call life, what more do we really have then one another? We are a body of swimmers who share a common bond for the love of swimming and adult exercise in the water. Let us keep to this course as opposed to offending one another and fracturing our beloved sport with pain, hard feelings and anger. We are different, yet, we are the same. We all love our children, we all want to excel in life, we all want to think of ourselves are winners, we all want to be free people, we all want to raise our families and enjoy life as best we can. Regardless of how fast we are, how smart we are or anything else…. in the final toll….we all want and strive for many of the same things. As we all did on playgrounds all over the world as children, let’s shake hands and make up….

Mark in MD
March 27th, 2004, 05:33 PM
Hear! Hear!

swimr4life
March 27th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Tom, this is why we have missed you! You are the calm voice of reason with a great sense of humor that everyone loves and listens too. I agree wholeheartedly with you. We need to just take a deep breath, step back, and remember why we come to this discussion forum....to learn from each other, encourage each other and share our love of this wonderful sport. Ion definitely pushes my buttons too but, he is entitled to his opinions. I gave up trying to reason with him, it is not worth my valuable time. We agree to disagree and I use my ignore button. It helps me avoid confrontation and anger! ;) Its a win-win situation!

Karen Duggan
March 27th, 2004, 11:20 PM
Hi,
I too just came back to the Forum after a four year break (and three kids later) and I was shocked to read the posts you mentioned. I must say I got a little "uppity" myself and wrote a very long reply to Ion. For whatever reason I did something wrong and it didn't get posted. The next day I was actually glad...
I teach 6th grade and I tried to imagine what I would do if this situation (these nasty posts or similar undesirable behavior) was going on in my class. I would deal with the situation by reiterating some of the important life skills that we study at school every day: compassion, respect, friendship, and common sense. And then move on.
The older I get, granted I'm only 33, and the more life experiences I have (I've had about 20 traumatic, life changing experiences in the last four years) the more I realize that life really is too short. I'm also learning, recently, not to live in the past (especially where bad memories lurk) and not to live for the future exactly, but to make the most of what you have every day, be thankful, and be happy. I've found the stress has gone away and I'm enjoying life much more.
Just my thoughts... off to change a diaper!! :)

Phil Arcuni
March 28th, 2004, 01:43 AM
I have been pretty pleased that the 'nastiness' has been confined to one thread. It is too bad that some of the interesting material gets buried in dross.

That said, I feel no need to apologise for other posters, nor do I think that these other posters cast me or all of the other people on this forum in a bad light. All posters represent themselves, only.

DocWhoRocks
March 29th, 2004, 09:54 AM
I just started posting here a week or two ago and have only seen one thread where people got a little nasty. I post/posted on many different internet forums.

Just remember it's the internet. People will often lash out at others via a computer. It's just text on a screen and for some people, this loses that personal feel to it. So while somebody may be very pleasent in real life, they may be much more harsh via the internet. A good rule of thumb when on the internet is to have a thick skin.

I for one like heated debates. But when then spiral down to name calling, that helps no one. People will defend their opinions tooth and nail, which is fine. But try to stay civalized about it. That being said, again it never hurts to have thick skin ;)

tjburk
March 29th, 2004, 10:43 AM
Tom, my hat is off to you! Words of wisdom! Welcome Back!!!

Ion Beza
April 2nd, 2004, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Phil Arcuni
I have been pretty pleased that the 'nastiness' has been confined to one thread.
...

I remember that when Bert Petersen opened the first thread of the new forum in September 2001 to express relief at the forum not allowing 'Anonymous' untraceable posters anymore, you wrote in it that in contrast to Bert's appreciation you did like the contradictoriness of the old forum.

1.) However, in the old forum the 'Anonymous' posters were doing hit-and-run against me and I wasn't.

That, you liked.

2.) Now, when I confront in kind posters who aren't 'Anonymous' anymore, you call it 'nastiness'.

"What have WE become?"

According to 1.) and 2.), to me, you became something.

tjburk
April 2nd, 2004, 08:45 AM
Ion, you missed Tom's point! Again! His point is not the fact that you answer back and defend yourself, we all expect you to do that and would/will do that ourselves!!!!!!

Now, listen carefully, because I have seen a lot of people try and tell you this.....IT IS THE WAY YOU DO IT!!!

It is the words you SAY!

You come off quite often as being mean in the way you talk back to people!

There is not a soul in here that faults you for being passionate about this sport! I personally love the passion for this sport that comes from you!

It is purely in the way you come across that people do not like, including myself!

I'm sure you'll probably blast me for this....but you know what? I am not thin skinned so it just don't matter!

Ion Beza
April 2nd, 2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by tjburk

...
I'm sure you'll probably blast me for this....
...

Don't worry.

I won't blast you for this.

We are different.

That's all.

tjburk
April 2nd, 2004, 04:21 PM
Difference is what makes the world go around! Difference is what keeps us from being bored! Difference is a good thing! Acceptance for being different is what we need!!:D

old dog
April 2nd, 2004, 07:16 PM
Post subject----that's it.

2go+h20
April 2nd, 2004, 11:36 PM
Ion,
I have to keep asking,as I am really interested in what you mean when you wrote that you could beat most posters in the 1,000 and beyond.
This is the third time I have asked you to please post your results of all the races you have competed in open water, without a wetsuit, over 5kms, the distances, your finish time,where they were held, the water temperature, if it was Fina sanctioned.
It is always nice to find another swimmer who competes in indoor sprint events as well as long distance open water.
I realize you are very busy with other posts, but could you please answer this post.
Thank you.
Happy training.

Ion Beza
April 3rd, 2004, 12:31 AM
kiwi, are you from New Zealand?

I remember that in another recent thread you asked me what has coach Bill Sweetenham (Aus.) done for the U.K. swimming that U.K. coaches haven't done, and I didn't answer that question.

In the thread 'Dubai -proposed changes' I vowed to not post anymore because it was getting into bickering at anything that I was writing just for the sake of bickering, and it was not a productive discussion anymore.

I wanted to e-mail you or send you a private message asking to get your question elsewhere, but they aren't available.

Your question came here, and I am answering it here.

I only do pool competitions, not open water races.

To me open water is a different sport than pool competition.

In pool I did one hour of continuous swim of a little over 4,600 yards.

It amounts to maybe one hour and eleven minutes for a 5,000 meters swim non stop.

Open water people train in pool like me, and most of them don't have speed, but they have steady endurance.

They swim with the head up to see above waves, don't do flip turns and don't do starts from the blocks in practice.

Their training is distance, a steady training, without big sprints.

The training for pool competitions is more high-tech than 'Distance Training' is, with:

1.) kicking sets;

2.) four strokes sets;

3.) breath control;

4.) diving from the block;

5.) flip turns;

6.) 'Explosive Sprint Training';

7.) 'Sprint Race Training';

8.) 'VO2Max Training';

9.) 'Anaerobic Threshold Training';

10.) skinny competitors who don't need the fat required in the open water to stay warm, but need to be slender so that the blood flows fast during high heart rate burst races of two minutes.

6.), 7.), 8.) and 9.) ensure that fourteen hours -or so- of weekly training get condensated in a two minutes race like a karate man unleashes a concentrated blow in a split second.
The heart rate during these two minutes is at its highest and stays there.

The 'Distance Training' of the open water doesn't have this speed and heart intensity, it is a steady pace for hours.
This is fitness for open water and triathlon, which is how it is raced, in fitness.

Comparing pool competition with open water is like comparing the high-tech fast swimming of Alex Popov (Rus.) with the fitness swimming of triathlete Peter Reid (Can.), two different sports.

Distance pool competitors at the Olympic level, like Chad Carvin (U.S.), Alex Kostich (U.S.), Chris Thompson (U.S.), Ryk Neethling (R.S.A.), Christina Teuscher (U.S.), Brooke Bennett (U.S.), Hannah Stockbauer (Ger.), etc., they do open water competitions even if it is different than pool racing, I think because they like to win the prize money.

Phil Arcuni
April 3rd, 2004, 01:25 AM
Ion, all the things I do for you!

- I summarize your position to make it clear what you are trying to say, in the hope that people will let the issue rest.

- I clarify the difference between 'cop' and 'cope'

- I tell everyone how to pronounce your name

And you tell me I am 'something'! (?)

But you are right about my changing my mind about anonymous postings. I was worried that people wouldn't tell you what they thought (of you) if they had to give their name. But I was WRONG! (!) (so things are all right, now.)

Anyway, the "'" around 'nastiness' implies I really don't agree with that assessment. I have been consistent in encouraging free speech on this forum, and my post was trying to say that people were making a bigger deal about your threads then they deserved.

2go+h20
April 4th, 2004, 12:32 AM
Ion,
Thank you for posting a reply to my question. I appreciate your passion for the sport, especially as a 'late bloomer'
That is a very good pool time for 5kms, for those with excellent flip turns and an effective push off each wall, there would be an adjustment in the time in the open water. Of course added to this would be the water conditions, temperature, currents wind etc. Because I don't have excellent turns, I actually gain time, I swim faster in a 5km in the open water than I do in a pool. I swim a 1hr 14 (which includes a feed break, necessary as I am a Type 1 insulin Dependent Diabetic) in the open water in 72 degree water, calm conditions, no wetsuit.
I would like to share with you my training schedule. I train all of the 1-10. I need all of those skills and more to be able to be a successful indoor and open water swimmer.
I do kick sets galaore to ensure my kick keeps me well balanced and supported in all swims, and I need to have this well trained when treading water for feeding breaks, and for me as a type 1 insulin dependedent diabetic, for the longer breaks needed to test my blood sugars.
I train all four strokes, and medley. I see this as keeping my swimming well rounded.
I train breath control as this is useful in the open water when it is really rough and I can't always get a breath when I take one. (I have developed a great technique for swallowing quickly rather than inhaling! I train' economy' breathing where I can easily swim a 25m length with no breath, as well as the other types of breath control sets.
AS a dive is only used once in a race, I do train this as well as 'dead starts' where you are floating and then take off, as some water starts are in deep water.
I am learning to be better at flip turns. I also train turns going tightly and quickly around a buoy.
Expolsive sprint training, sprint training, VO2 Max training and Anaerobic training is also done, like other indoor swimmers, several times in each macro, meso and micro cycle. I am coached by professional top level coaches.
While distance swimmers have endurance ability, because of their body make up (more slow twitch fibers) they do train speed to improve their technique strength and ability to hold a faster pace for longer.
I use 3-4 different styles of freestyle depending on the weather conditions. So I do drills every single day as part of my training sessions. Open water swimmer, those whom I have competed with and trained with, don't swim with their heads above the water. We train in the ability to swim in a straight line. We train to be able to pull evenly on both sides so we can go straight. If there is a current, well those one arm drills sure are handy ! I do lift my head to sight, but I have this trained in a most energy efficient way, and I look up depending on conditions , course when I want/need to. (sometimes it is to communicate with the boat person. If you have a boat person, (I have to have a boat person at all times in races, usually support crew accompany on 10km or longer swims) then you really only need to look up to see the progress you are making, and the beautiful scenery. It is the job of the boat person to hold the line. If there is lots to see beneath me, then I look up even less ;)
I train with Peter Reid, Laurie Bowden, Simon Whitfield, as well as other top triathletes once a week and all have a lot of speed.(It is an hour drive to this session each way) A couple of weeks ago at the end of our session, we did a timed 400m and Simon clocked in an easy 4:10. I consider that time to be excellent.
For the past 5 years I have had the incredible opportunity to be coached by a person who trained the Fastest in the world in womens 50 free in 2003, and he also trained two of us who swam the furtherest in marathon swimming in Canada that year.(that was my question, who was this coach and who was the swimmer in the 50 free, not about Bill Sweetenham)
In the indoor season, I compete in all sorts of meets for masters, including Nationals, Provincials, and I have also done World Master Championships.
My outdoor season begins in late June, early July depending on temerature. I begin with shorter swims to acclimatize and season my lean body to the cold waters. I train against the current of a river which ensures I most certainly do get to train sprint and VO2 max as I do 3-4 minute ladders in one part of the river which is extremely difficult to get up, (the trout, and crayfish underneath me in the clear clean waters, wave me on) and another part where I try and hold against the swift current for 20 secs or longer(Here I think I am amusement for the fish, crayfish and clams who watch with open mouths!) . I also do fartleck sets, 'on the way' swims (where you have to beat the last interval and continue on for the next distance etc. My season ends after the last race around Aug 15th. Last year I logged 430+ kms in the open water. (That averages 10-12+ kms a day, including several hours devoted to wave practise where I swim into, across the waves and with the waves behind me - if you don't have good body balance and an excellent core, pray for calm weather.
No I wasn't asking about Sweetenham, whom I have also met. Rather about the coach and swimmer I know from the UK. I didn't get a reply from that, but I understand how busy you are with all the other posts to reply to.
Ion try an open water swim. They are so much fun. Come North and do your first one here!
Ion, do you remember telling me how much I didn't know?
I hope over the other threads, and by explaining this you may see that I do actually know something about swimming.
I am busy with everything to do with swimming including motivating, educating, guest speaker on several topics, and training others.
By the way I learnt to swim at 33, and I am now a young 49.
So c'mon, Ion. Just try an open water swim. You would do well. And you might even be surprised how good it actually feels to take it outside the lines.
Pick one and do it. It's an amazing challenge. Doing these distances in a pool would be ever so boring. Not so outside.

Ps. I do my LSD (long slow distance in 2 lakes, both steps from my house. One is a smaller lake which I have a 300m across to a rock where I can do dive starts ;), a 200m, and 500m measured distances, for on the way swims in a 1km (GPS'd)loop down the lake. I average around 12 loops in this beautiful lake, + the 300m crossing each way. I train in the river when I don't have a boat as the community know me well, and really watch out for me. It is mostly not over my head, and not too wide so the shore is always easy to get to.
In the big lake I do the much longer distances, usually 4-6 hours at a stretch. And it is where I get terrific wave practise in the afternoon.

Ion Beza
April 4th, 2004, 10:14 AM
kiwi,

this is a a quick note before me dissecting your post.

Is that you in the picture?

Maybe you and your training partners are exceptional.

I speak in general about open water compared to pool swimming.

Simply said, pool swimming is more speed and that's what I look for.

Regarding 5k in pool, I have poor turns that penalize me.

In the 90s I did 50X100 meter free Long Course leaving every 1:30, which is 5k in 1 hour and 15 minutes, and one day I did 7x1,000 meters Long Course leaving every 15 minutes.

I think that I can do today 50x100 free Long Course leaving every 1:30.

Regarding the U.K. sprinter, there is Alison Sheppard from Scotland who trains in Canada under Gary van der Meulen.
Gary van der Meulen is mainly a pool swimmer who made the Canadian national team in the 90s.

dorothyrd
April 4th, 2004, 01:13 PM
I have friends who love open water swimming and are always saying I should try it. But it just doesn't appeal to me. I am in awe at it, I think it must be very hard, but the water around here is pretty nasty, and while I could go up to Chicago and do some up there, that is cold, brrrrr.

I think it is to each his/her own whether they compete pool or open swimming.

Kiwi, I enjoyed your training descriptions, our rivers around here are far, far from clear. :) They would be tough to swim up stream right now, as they are all at high flood state!

gull
April 4th, 2004, 02:08 PM
Kiwi,

Great post. Thanks for sharing that. I am not a late starter (middle and long distance in college) but only joined Masters about eighteen months ago. I competed in a 2 mile open water swim last summer. It was a great experience and definitely not just a fitness swim. I didn't find that my pool time for a mile was predictive of my time in the ocean (presumably due to the effects of waves and current). I suspect that I ended up swimming more than the official 2 mile distance of the race.

old dog
April 5th, 2004, 09:45 AM
Kiwi,
Great post. Thanks.

I love swimming in nature too. NO CHLORINE!!! WOW!!!!!!!!!
Your description of swimming in place in a river reminded me
of a fun experience.

I was on vacation in New England [Martha's Vineyard]where tides
are significant. One day at the beach, the tide was going out. There was a big tidal lagoon with an outlet/jetty/bridge
right nearby [State Beach]. I started swimming "upstream"
against the tidal flow which was emptying from the lagoon. The current kept
getting faster and faster. By sprinting as hard as I could,
I could just barely make headway towards the bridge.
Talk about your endless pool! When I stopped, the current
immediately swept me rapidly toward the ocean again.
I did it again and again---talk about a VO2 Max/sprint
combo workout! :0)

old dog
April 5th, 2004, 11:02 AM
Long distance open water swimming is not well known even
in USMS, myself included.

Was just curious about the statement- "pool swimming's more speed and that's what I look for."--so here is one example:

I was in a 5 mile [8800 yd] open water swim in 6/2002. Water
temp was 19 degrees C or 66 F, lake was calm. The winning female was
40 yo. Never heard of her before, couldn't find her on the internet. She went 1 hour 46 minutes...that's averaging
12:04/ 1000 yard. I'd say
that was pretty good speed....

lefty
April 5th, 2004, 11:53 AM
I did my first pool mile ever last week (in a race that is). I am curious to those who are experienced: Assuming the conditions are good, how much slower is an open water mile vs pool mile (which isn't really a mile). My mile time was 18:37 (1:07.7 per hunrdred, so a real mile (1760 Yards) would have been right at 20 Minutes. And in a college practice I did 3500 yards in 40 Minutes / 25 seconds.

Thoughts...

Leonard Jansen
April 5th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by lefty
I did my first pool mile ever last week (in a race that is). I am curious to those who are experienced: Assuming the conditions are good, how much slower is an open water mile vs pool mile (which isn't really a mile). My mile time was 18:37 (1:07.7 per hunrdred, so a real mile (1760 Yards) would have been right at 20 Minutes. And in a college practice I did 3500 yards in 40 Minutes / 25 seconds.

Thoughts...

Given your speed, I wouldn't worry about it.:D

It's a hard question to answer since there are all kinds of variables involved: Wind, waves, currents, drafting, sharks, Godzilla, etc. It also varies by a person's mindset. However, all things being as equal as they can be, the general rule of thumb I've always seen is about 5 seconds slower per 50 yards than in a 25 yard pool. That has always seemed too much, so let's say that that is the upper limit barring anything too unusual. Also keep in mind that the art and science of measuring distances in open water is alot more art than science and often artistic license is the word of the day.

Give it a try! IMHO it is far more fun than pool swimming. But please don't tease the sharks - it gets them grumpy for the slower swimmers (like me) who will follow after.

-LBJ

DocWhoRocks
April 5th, 2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Leonard Jansen

Give it a try! IMHO it is far more fun than pool swimming. But please don't tease the sharks - it gets them grumpy for the slower swimmers (like me) who will follow after.

Just remember, as long as you're faster than one other swimmer the sharks won't get you! :p

I love open water swimming. Haven't done an open water swim in a LONG time though :( Not many (acutally I only know of one) open water swims around here. Did my first open water swim at summer zones when I was senior in HS, been hooked ever since :D

Mark in MD
April 5th, 2004, 01:35 PM
Doc ... Old Dog's been twisting my arm to try it as well in a lake. From reading all of this, I have the urge to go jump in a lake. Well ... not until summer.

old dog
April 5th, 2004, 01:40 PM
C'mon Mark! The cold water just wakes you up and keeps
you crankin' ! :D

Tom Ellison
April 5th, 2004, 01:44 PM
COLD WATER does a whole lot more then wake up up! After I swam the Alcatraz Sharkfest the first time (non-wet suit div.)....I had to go out and buy a pair of tweezer and a mag glass just to take a leak afterwards....:D

Mark in MD
April 5th, 2004, 01:49 PM
Must really have been a SMALL pair of tweezers and an EXTRA LARGE magnifying glass. :p All kidding aside, certainly this is something worth considering.

old dog
April 5th, 2004, 01:50 PM
Down, boy. :D

arf, arf

DocWhoRocks
April 5th, 2004, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by Mark in MD
Must really have been a SMALL pair of tweezers and an EXTRA LARGE magnifying glass. :p All kidding aside, certainly this is something worth considering.

There's no consideration at all - go do it! Well if you like distance & pain that is ;)

But serioiusly, if you have never done an open water swim I'd say give it a try. Totally different than swimming in a pool. Just start with a nice, short, easy 5k :cool:

Conniekat8
April 5th, 2004, 03:29 PM
Cold Water - ugh!
I'll swim with sharks, as long as water isn't cold!!!

2go+h20
April 5th, 2004, 04:57 PM
Yes Tom,
Rather like we say up here, with your tongue poking in the side of your cheek. "Boy it's cold in here". (indicating where some parts go to stay warm :D :p :D :p
So glad to read of other open water swimmers. It really is a blast.
And so true when you can find a swift part of a current that you work so hard to swim up, and then blast back as if I were an 'olympic swimmer'. Great VO2Max stuff. Another great technique tip is that when you swim against the current, it will clean up your catch and high elbows under water pull. Coming back with the current will also teach you about clean entry, long pulls and a good body roll.
If the water is shallow and has an abundance of weeds, well that's an excellent place to ensure you don't drop your elbows!
Where I swim in a 'heritage' river, I keep my eyes open under the bridges for 'sparkly objects. The local kids jump off the bridges and sometimes I find great treasure. I suppose you could say I get paid!! The most I ahve found in one day was $2.52. It is hard to dive down against the swift current and pick up the shiny object, but great kick and dolphin kick training! (not all shiny objects are money, you cna be fooled by bottle tops. I did find a $5.00 note, only the crayfish had nibbeled all around the corners and had digested the serial number. So it is stowed safely away in my 'souvenier' box.
A friend of mine is organzing ' Swimming Holidays" Sea swims, diving, lake swims, river swims.
If anyone is interested in venturing north where your dollar goes a long way.;) let me know. I will post the web site.
Swimming outside is so much fun. Never boring.
For new swimmers to the open water, transfering of your times from the pool, is a quick process. Once you spend a bit of time, the times become like the pool times if you have snappy tuirns. If you don;t then you will see a steady improvement.
Don't forget to do some speed every day. We need to train speed in order to put strength and power into our stroke. And it wakes up those fast twitch fibres. (trust me, they come in handy when a bear decides to go for a dip as happened to me once)
Gull80, I can understand when you say you swam longer than the distance. That is easy to do. It takes a person in a boat beside you to help you learn to navigate. It is amazing how many variations of straight there are when all swimmers take off!!
In order to swim straight, you have to be able to line up a point behind as well as in front. Now that's harder in the water, hence a boat person can help. (A point in the distance will look straight even if you are say 30 degress off, you will only know if you are off by turning around and looking to see if you are in line with a point behind and the point in front) . You will find if one side pulls just a bit more strongly, or if there is an outgoing tide, current etc, you will learn how to compensate for that. Hope you do more swims.

old dog
April 5th, 2004, 08:42 PM
Kiwi,
Did Mr Beza ever answer your questions re: his times?

And I am curious too----is that you in the pic? I looked up
the name of the lake in the banner in the pic [google]---11 Km+
race--very impressive!!!! The temp was 69F--would you
wear a wet suit again? Did you use a cap or earplugs?
People advised me to wear ear plugs from longer races
to conserve heat and prevent infections..the cap certainly
keeps the heat in, too.

I would like to know more about the swimming holidays---
bet a whole lot of others would too!!!

old dog
April 5th, 2004, 08:54 PM
I was happy to have a skillful brother paddle an escort canoe on a long swim [w/ my son up front :0)] . Lefty, to answer your question as did Len, "How straight can you swim?".. that is without using a LOT of energy sighting your path...and it DOES
take energy to peek and navigate...esp. over miles and miles..
It was a help to me that behind the canoe trailed a 15 foot length
of yellow rope---made it more like a cable swim.

I agree with Len re: adding 10 % to your pool times...IF you are a good navigator and can swim in a straight line!

Ion Beza
April 6th, 2004, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by old dog
Kiwi,
Did Mr Beza ever answer your questions re: his times?
...

dogie,

you play the mediator.

I don't need you.

You pick the wrong fight.

2go+h20
April 6th, 2004, 12:10 AM
Old Dog,
I don't wear a wetsuit. I use an aquablade knee length racer back suit for all open water and marathon events. (just like in the picture ;), which is yours truly) I use one cap if the water is 72 or more, and two caps a silicone and the event cap on top for water over 64 degrees. Anything under that I use ear plugs as well as the cold water can get into your inner ear and upset your vestibular/balance mechanism. I generally am able to stay warm in cooler water, although as I age I am finding it more difficult to keep warm. I need the sun out which means buckets of sunscreen and zinc creme. ( an overcast day means calmer water, but cooler outside temp, a sunny day is warm but usually brings a wind and then the waves.)
When I first began open water swimming I did get a wetsuit but I didn't like wearing it as I was getting too warm in it. Plus the awful chaffing/war wounds. So for the past 6 years, I just use a swim suit for training and competing.
At the World Championships, the medical team talked about the fast skins. they felt at that time (2002) that they were too tight and were too constricting and would not help the circulation to the extremeties. Some swimmers wore them anyway. Of the 300 who started, 70 DNF and of those only 12 didn't wear a fast skin. 90% of the DBF'ers had not trained in the open water.
If the weather is cool, with a wind/breeze, then grease can help keep the body warmer.
Ion did answer my question about times, but lets not dwell on that.
The Skaha lake swm is 11.8km, 7.38 miles, this year on Aug 7th. It is in Penticton, B.C the home of the Canadian Ironman
I will get the email/web site for the swimming holidays. My Neck of the woods is certainly a beautiful place to swim and kayak

Ion Beza
April 6th, 2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by 2go+h20

...
(just like in the picture ;), which is yours truly)
...

I wonder whether you are Melissa Doyle -or maybe Sophie Charbonneau- or someone else.

I cannot e-mail you, but you can e-mail me if you want to answer this privately.

If you don't want, that's fine, of course.

I am curious to know success, albeit in open water, a different field than my pool swimming.

I am familiar with British Columbia.

At the beginning of the 90s I was swimming in the Pacific Dolphin Swim Club, a pool swimming club of Vancouver, B.C., with Thurlough O'Hare (92 Olympics), Kevin Draxinger (92 Olympics), Michelle Sallee, Kelvin Mortimer, Christian von Fersen, Julie Durward, Paul Hughes, Kim Fabro, etc., under coach Tom Johnson.

Ion Beza
April 6th, 2004, 06:41 AM
Even this:

Originally posted by Ion Beza

...
Simply said, pool swimming is more speed and that's what I look for.
...

got 'challenged' by the picky 'know-it-all' of the forum (who is the fan of Total Immersion and emmett).

Pool swimming judges a swimmer's speed by rendering the water conditions more neutral than open water does:

a.) less turbulence (with heavy lane lines, low gutters, and no currents),

b.) water temperature that is ideal for the muscles,

c.) a black lane at the bottom of the pool that gives swimmers a better position for speed when they look down, than the position in open water when they look above waves;

and

e.) shorter and speedier events, less than a mile.

The drawback, where the water conditions are more neutral in open water, is that pools have walls to accelerate from, but I am a not so good flip turner, so walls are not a big advantage to me, they are still almost neutral to me.

mattson
April 6th, 2004, 11:02 AM
In a different direction than long distance open-water swims, what about zoomers? Strong abs and legs are an advantage over arm strength. There is some serious speed involved. And the article (in Swim Magazine ??) says that those races got the Pablo Morales seal-of-approval.

Karen Duggan
April 6th, 2004, 12:48 PM
Mark,
I tried to e-mail you but it said your box was full. Will you please check it. I have a joke to share with you :) Thanks.

kaelonj
April 6th, 2004, 01:43 PM
Can anyone tell me how long the Mattson Lies thread lasted ? (wanted to find out if I guessed correctly and can collect my prize money so I can retire early). Sorry for diverting the conversation - now back to our regularly scheduled program.

In regards to open water swims, I had a swimmer who swam with our team for about 2 years, he did a lot of the open water swims and was quite accomplished doing these 'marathon' type swims, he also did pool swims and was placed very high in the USMS top ten for free events 200m and up (also was a pretty good 400 IM er).
Even though I am primarily a sprinter I enjoy doing the open water events because of the camaraderie and the strategy involved (who to draft off of, who's going to work with you and who is going work you). Everyone basically swims at the same time (starts at the same time anyways) and those that finish early are usually there to cheer those that finish behind them to the last swimmer - plus the post race festivities (especially in Oregon) are hard to beat.

2go+h20
April 6th, 2004, 02:05 PM
In the open water events I am familiar with, there are definite rules. One rule is "No Drafting" If you are going to pass, you have to move 1 meter away so you are not in the slip stream, and you have a certain time to pass. You are not allowed to sit on the feet of the swimmer in front. The time allocated for passing is explained at the mandatory pre course meetings for each event. Some non sanctioned events will have the rules printed in the brochure, and you will sign to say you will abide by these.
However in triathalon swimming, drafting in swimming is allowed. But is definitely not allowed in the cycle portion. It is too difficult to stop drafting in the swim event due to the large numbers swimming. In open water events, there are usually smaller numbers, so it is easier for the 'course officials' to enforce. Besides, it feels way to better to have achieved your goal under your own steam.
Yes the post race celebrations are the icing on the cake. Very enjoyable.
What swims are in Oregon?

Ion Beza
April 6th, 2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by kaelonj
Can anyone tell me how long the Mattson Lies thread lasted ?
...

Sure.

It lasted long enough for Mattson and you to know what I think.

Which is my intent.

kaelonj
April 6th, 2004, 02:40 PM
Kiwi,

The Applegate open water swim (southern oregon near Medford) this year is Mid July and one day is scheduled for the National 3.5 K championship. Dan Gray does a great job with the races there.
Elk Lake is one of my favorites (July 31 -Aug 1), the scenery is incredible, Mt Bachelor is the back drop and water visability of near 20 feet makes this a great race, that plus the Central Oregon Masters do a great post race festivity and Bend has some great micro brews. I have yet to do Eel Lake which is in August which is next to the southern Oregon coast (I have heard from some swimmers that this too is a beautiful venue). Dorena Lake (just south of Eugene) is also a good race.
In less they have changed the rules since my last open water swim a few years ago, drafting was/is legal - normally not many course marshals for these swims, which might make these events more fun because there is not the high pressure of these rules.

Ion,

I will assume you are being somewhat sarcastic with your answer.

swimshark
April 6th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Jeff, also look for an open water race put on by a local triathlon club at Hagg Lake June 13th. The local USMS club will be assisting with this race as well.

Ion Beza
April 6th, 2004, 05:06 PM
This:

Originally posted by gull80

...
I don't dispute the fact that he has done well in spite of his late start. He's posted some solid times and is close to the NQT for the 1000, no small feat for a late starter. His dedication to the sport and his work ethic are impressive. What I object to is the way he tries to arbitrarily handicap the system to place himself at or near the top of USMS swimmers, in the process discounting or dismissing the efforts and achievements of others. I don't believe this represents good sportsmanship, which is part of being a great athlete.
was posted in 'Share some good stories about humanity', where I vowed to not post anylonger.

The post is wrong:

.) USMS swimmers recognized that they don't work as much as they did in age-group days but rely on that for the easier to meet USMS standards;
in fact many recognized that they don't work out much anymore, for example two said this in 'The Fastest Age';

.) without me taking a stand, late bloomers never had a voice, they were deemed in 'for the fun', for losing weight, for making friends but not for the competition;
I still keep in mind posts where my results are demeaned;
this is not good sportsmanship;
I was clear enough on this many times, for people to not confuse good sporstmanship.

Conniekat8
April 6th, 2004, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

.) USMS swimmers recognized that they don't work as much as they did in age-group days, in fact many recognized that they don't work out much anymore, for example two said this in 'The Fastest Age';


and, in your opinion, is there something wrong withthat?
Being that you come across as very negatively judgemental of it?

Karen Duggan
April 6th, 2004, 05:28 PM
Wahoo! I found the ignore button :)

Connie,
I wouldn't say I don't work out as hard, just not as many yards/meters. Thankfully, the 8,000 m workouts are in the past, as is being on the freezing deck at 4:45am.
I am happy to say that I have done my life bests in Masters, and I'm not done yet. Just a brief pause over the last four years to have three kids! In the words of our famous governor, "I'll be back!"

aquageek
April 6th, 2004, 05:29 PM
I was not aware there was an underground group of late bloomers, much less a covert group of late bloomers requiring a leader to take a stand on their behalf. I'm also not aware you are their annointed leader.

I am aware, however, of a group of people, commonly called swimmers, who like to have their accomplishments recognized without handicap. Because, as has been pointed out to the point of nausea, there is no category in any swimming community called "late bloomer."

Karen Duggan
April 6th, 2004, 05:38 PM
Aquageek,
Did you see the other thread with the lengthy discussion about a "special shampoo" and "late bloomers"? It was all very tongue-in-cheek. Just wondering if you had seen it.

gull
April 6th, 2004, 06:04 PM
Thank you for re-posting my post. Notice that I did not demean your results, nor have I ever done so. On the other hand, once again you imply that the results of those with a background in age group and/or college swimming should be qualified in some way since presumably less effort was required to achieve these times. Perhaps we could place an asterisk next to the times, a la Roger Maris?

Conniekat8
April 6th, 2004, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Wahoo! I found the ignore button :)

Connie,
I wouldn't say I don't work out as hard, just not as many yards/meters. Thankfully, the 8,000 m workouts are in the past, as is being on the freezing deck at 4:45am.
I am happy to say that I have done my life bests in Masters, and I'm not done yet. Just a brief pause over the last four years to have three kids! In the words of our famous governor, "I'll be back!"

Awesome!

We have quite a few swimmers on our team that are doing their best times in their 30's and 40's then they had as age groupers.
Some of them because they are over the burnout and have renewed interest, other are starting to have little more time for themselves again.

Conniekat8
April 6th, 2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

.) without me taking a stand, late bloomers never had a voice, they were deemed in 'for the fun', for losing weight, for making friends but not for the competition;
I still keep in mind posts where my results are demeaned;
this is not good sportmanship;


Your statement about late bloomes not having a voice is not objective. As I late bloomer myself, the las thing I would want is to have you as a spokesman for the late bloomers.


You got criticized and chewed out for demeaning other peoples times, including the people for whom you pretend to be speaking out for (late bloomers). There is a big difference between that, and people demeaning your times in a fashion you do to other people. When you put people down all the time, the way you do, it is unrealistic to expect taht people will respond to you in kind.

People tend to treat you the way you treat them. Doesnt' that make you wionder how come all these people that get along great with one another all have problem getting along with you??? Do you really think it's all of them, or does it ever cross your mind that it may have something to do with you?

You know, being "right" and being "likeable" are not synonymous, even though you may have gotten used to getting praise and acceptance for giving right answes in Math, most people are not mathematicians. You;re goingabout trying to get acceptance the wrong way, and I know you're trying to gain acceptance, cause you keep mentioning things like 'they're doing ...... (fill in the blanks) .... to me too, and I'm not a monk etc...

I mean, doesn't that fry you when someone is wrong butthey still manage to gain acceptance? Do you ever ask yourself why? Perhaps it's not about being right or wrong.

kaelonj
April 6th, 2004, 06:59 PM
Hey Alison,

I heard from some T-hill swimmers that they were going to try something at Hagg, I believe it was with the Gecko tri-group, unfortunately it hasn't hit the Oregon Masters Calendar yet - Portland Masters use to host an open water swim at Hagg Lake - which like the other events was a lot of fun.

swimshark
April 6th, 2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by kaelonj
Hey Alison,

I heard from some T-hill swimmers that they were going to try something at Hagg, I believe it was with the Gecko tri-group, unfortunately it hasn't hit the Oregon Masters Calendar yet - Portland Masters use to host an open water swim at Hagg Lake - which like the other events was a lot of fun.

I think this new event with Gecko will be in place of the PMS's former Open Water swim. It sounds like they will have a great event, too. I will probably volunteer (I'm not into swimming with fish):D

Maybe I can meet you there!

mattson
April 6th, 2004, 07:28 PM
While watcing an older participant do the 200 fly, I was talking to another swimmer. He brought up this interesting story:


An elite-level runner was asked where he had the energy to run marathons. The runner stated that he actually had less energy than most. He was fast enough to run a 2 hour marathon. But he saw people who were out on the course for 6 hours. He doubted he could run for 6 hours straight.

So here was an example of an elite marathoner showing his admiration for the competitiveness and hard work of an "average" runner. (If you can call someone who finishes a marathon "average". ;) ) But it is rare for one of the pack runners to dismiss the work ethic of faster marathoners.

Putting in massive amounts of yards shows that the swimmer is dedicated. A swimmer expending a lot of energy during a race can be very impressive. But that is not the only yardstick (or meterstick) for determining good swim training, or what makes a fast swimmer.

dorothyrd
April 6th, 2004, 08:54 PM
I also think we each train to our own capabilities. I have tried to do work-outs surpassing 4000 yards and my body breaks down. 3500 is about my limit. Maybe time will change that and as I get used to 3500 I can up it. I know I can now complete that a lot faster than I used to. However, I have to pay attention to preventing injury. It does not mean I work less hard, I am working as hard as I am able. Plus I do a lot of cross training, weights, running(in summer), cardio classes, biking.

But if my shoulders start getting grouchy, I have to back off!

Bert Bergen
April 6th, 2004, 09:13 PM
There is no organization in the entire world in any discipline that recognizes a subset of its members as "late bloomers," let alone USMS. Therefore that category, subset, or grouping does not officially exist and therefore should not be acknowledged. We are swimmers: male, female, in age groups or events period. Speed, ability, amount of weekly yardage, start date/year, nationality, success level (at any level), freestylers, backstrokers, TI disciples, sprinters, distance, with or without body suits, goggles, or caps; none of those characteristics matter. The JOY of our sport is not measured by a clock (though that is what drives so many of us). It is measured by what it feels like to glide off a wall, by the fun you get talking to teammates during the kick set, seeing old friends at meets that you attend, by the buzz you get when you finish that tough set or workout and your coach says "awesome," or the doctor takes your resting HR, and says "you must be an athlete..." and you beam "swimmer." That is what matters (or what should matter). We are swimmers. No explanation, self-defense, apologies necessary. When you figure that out Ion, we'll all be there to shake your hand. Feel the JOY.

Mark in MD
April 6th, 2004, 11:11 PM
Bravo, Bert. Well said.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Bert Bergen

...
Therefore that category, subset, or grouping does not officially exist and therefore should not be acknowledged.
...

Ignorance of knowledge is not a blessing.

I think you and many from your choir, you believe in the wrong century, at odds with the world of today.

You might as well submit your post to the local church, not to me.

Knowledge is a blessing.

2go+h20
April 7th, 2004, 12:20 AM
Excellent Post Bert.
I get such joy out of each workout, each goal, each challenge.
Each day I swim, for I simply love to swim. And I love to share that joy and success with others. To get others to reach out for new goals.
I don't take my health for granted, so I treasure each day that I am able to achieve. There will always be someone better, someone who will motivate and inspire no matter what their abilities. My swimming book is filled with autographs of my 'heros'. A mix of all sorts of swimmers, including a 95 year old who did an 800 at the World Champs, popped out of the water in a sprightly energetic way, and walked off completely independently, climbed out the steps, ducked under the rope barrier no cane, glasses,or hearing aid, and with an enormous smile even though she couldn't speak any English. She knew what she meant to me.
Time isn't the object. Living life well, enjoying life, keeping a balance and achieving a goal.
As they say in a certain ad. It's priceless. And best of all, no one can take that feeling away. No one. Not Ever. :)

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by 2go+h20
Excellent Post Bert.
...

Because you like Bert's post so much, you shouldn't have told that you started swimming at 33.

By Bert and you here, knowledge of you starting swimming at 33 shouldn't exist.

Heck, why did you say that you are diabetic too?

By Bert and you here, knowledge of you being diabetic shouldn't exist either.

You are inconsistent in having said your conditions, along with their corrsponding results.

To be consistent, you should have said strictly your results, period.

Conniekat8
April 7th, 2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

Ignorance of knowledge is not a blessing.

I think you and many from your choir, you believe in the wrong century, at odds with the world of today.

You might as well submit your post to the local church, not to me.

Knowledge is a blessing.

Hi Ion,
Excellent self-analysis here. Have to give you that.

Conniekat8
April 7th, 2004, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

Because you like Bert's post so much, you shouldn't have told that you started swimming at 33.


Why not?
The only one that matters to is you. None of us swimmers who started at what not age are looking for special recognition.
I started swimming at least 6 years later in life than you, and I', already getting more recognition for it than I ever thought I would.
The recogniotion you tuly crave, and will never get is, sadly, inside of you.

Bert Bergen
April 7th, 2004, 01:10 AM
You still can't see it: it is the joy AND the knowledge of appreciating what he (and we) have that makes this worthwhile. You are science-driven and a bit cynical. Not necessarily totally wrong qualities to have; it would be nice to also possess humility, humor, and appreciation for the simplicity of what we are able to do. At your age, you should be doing this for the enjoyment and pleasure of it...none of this matters in the big picture. You're not going to get faster--hopefully smarter.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 02:04 AM
Originally posted by Bert Bergen

...
it would be nice to also possess humility, humor, and appreciation for the simplicity of what we are able to do.
...

You judge on only one facet that we talk about here, and for which I don't compromize.

On many facets that we don't talk about here, people who see me everyday see these traits in my personality.

aquageek
April 7th, 2004, 07:00 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

On many facets that we don't talk about here, people who see me everyday see these traits in my personality.

Beza:

Isn't it somewhat ironic that you only bring your surly qualities to this forum? Do you wonder why your vast legion of followers that see you every day aren't clamoring on this forum to defend these alleged traits? Maybe you are as poplular on your team as you are here. I recall a thread a year or so ago where someone who swam with you said how horrid you were to swim with.

Why is that Ion? Why is yet another thread ruined by you? Why do we even care at this point?

Is there any chance we can return this forum to swimming and not to Ion's rants and fallacies? Would be nice.

nyswim
April 7th, 2004, 07:32 AM
To be consistent, you should have said strictly your results, period.

WHAT!? Have you ever posted a result without the "Late Bloomer" disclaimer?

gull
April 7th, 2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I still keep in mind posts where my results are demeaned;
this is not good sportsmanship

You are the one that made your times an issue and a subject for discussion when you:

Stated that you were faster than 90% of USMS swimmers, but didn't specify whether this meant all 42,000 members or only those who actually train seriously and compete.

Compared your times to those of women 10 years older than you.

Insisted that no other "late bloomer" had accomplished what you had, dismissing or ignoring any and all posts to the contrary.

Discredited the results of "early bloomers" because their times were obviously the result of training from 20 or 30 years ago and didn't require much effort.

I have not found that USMS members judge each other by their times. In fact, I've been impressed with the encouragement that even the slowest swimmers receive at meets (and on this forum for that matter). To you, though, this is a sign of weakness.

You seek recognition, but only on your terms.

Conniekat8
April 7th, 2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

You judge on only one facet that we talk about here, and for which I don't compromize.

On many facets that we don't talk about here, people who see me everyday see these traits in my personality.

Well, we're all dyng here to see the positive fcets that you're talking about. Feel free to stat any time.
In the meantime you get judged based on what you choose to show us. Noone's fault but your own, if you don't like what we're seeing.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by gull80

You are the one that made your times an issue and a subject for discussion when you:

Stated that you were faster than 90% of USMS swimmers, but didn't specify whether this meant all 42,000 members or only those who actually train seriously and compete.
...

I did:

42,000.

You don't pay attention.

42,000 access the same workout conditions as I do.

With outputs that are different than mine.

Karen Duggan
April 7th, 2004, 01:10 PM
Connie, AG, etc.,
I admire your stamina. I've since hit the ignore button regarding the "import", but you guys plug on! Thanks for the continued entertainment :)

gull
April 7th, 2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

I did:

42,000.

You don't pay attention.

I pay attention just fine. You missed the point of my post. You questioned why your results became an issue, when it is you who are responsible. No, you did not initially state that it was the entire USMS membership in the denominator, but again that's not the point.

The point is that when you make statements to the effect that you're faster than 90% of us, you're opening yourself up to criticism. If you're going to play hardball, you may get dusted.

Is that the best response you can muster, or are you still looking for typo's?

aquageek
April 7th, 2004, 01:45 PM
Ion:

Maybe you should make a point and stick to it. It was only when confronted with the fact that you were slower than 85% of folks in your age group at Tempe Nats in 2003 (men, not women, age 40-44) that you reswizzled your assertion by including all 42K USMS swimmers.

And, conveniently, you have no way of proving your assertion now, you can just make it up.

Your arguments are so totally confusing that even you can't keep track. You repeatedly claim no interest in being fast by USMS standards yet constantly harp on how fast you are. You want to be the international voice of the late bloomers but refuse to acknowledge anyone other than yourself in your faux category.

Maybe you could spare us 3000 more of your posts if you just admitted that you want our admiration, regardless of any of the accepted standards by which all other swimmers are judged.

kaelonj
April 7th, 2004, 01:49 PM
Cripes Oh mighty - Ion, your team has 42,000 members on it - because that is the only way they would have 'access the same workout conditions as I do.'
So being in the top 4,200 USMS swimmers means......what ? In that number are men and women older, younger and the same age as you that are faster (and of course slower there is a good number of swimmers that are slower). One thing I find laughable is how you define and limit things. Your justification is based upon one event (if I remember correctly), so going the other way you are where in regards to the 200 butterfly, 400 IM, 100 backstroke near the bottom of the USMS since you don't swim these events you would be considered as fast as those fitness lap swimmers that you continually put down, how ironic. So I really don't see what your point is
If being in the top 10% floats your boat and gets you in the water and makes you feel like you've accomplished something, then fine, more power to ya. But you'll have to excuse me if I am not totally impressed with your achievements because of your demeanor and how you come off in this posts.

Scansy
April 7th, 2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by kaelonj
... Your justification is based upon one event ...

That brings up an interesting point. I feel that someone can be the fastest distance freestyler or the fastest sprint breaststroker etc. And that is all impressive.

But for my money, the fastest distance SWIMMER is someone who does it in an IM event. Same for fastest sprint SWIMMER.

I don't want to open a can of worms :rolleyes: , but I am curious what others think about this.

kaelonj
April 7th, 2004, 02:02 PM
I would go with the 400 IM - much as the decathlon determines the greatest track athlete, has most of the track disciplines. A succesful 400 IM er has to be able to do all strokes, sprint those strokes but be able to maintain with some endurance.

aquageek
April 7th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Now this is truly interesting.

One part of me says the IM is the "jack of all trades, master of none." The other part says if you win the IM you are the best swimmer.

I think the 400 IM stands alone at proving the most well balanced swimmer, and, maybe the fastest overall. But, for those of us too pathetic to try the 400 IM, I will say that you can be fast in any event.

I'd rather spend a day in the pool with Ion than do the 400 IM. That's one hard event, the IM that is.

Conniekat8
April 7th, 2004, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Connie, AG, etc.,
I admire your stamina. I've since hit the ignore button regarding the "import", but you guys plug on! Thanks for the continued entertainment :)

I have him on ignore, but end up looking it up anyway.
It's become my daily comic relief. ;)

Scansy
April 7th, 2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
...

I'd rather spend a day in the pool with Ion than do the 400 IM. That's one hard event, the IM that is.

Hmmmmm. How about a day in the pool with Ion, doing 400 IM's on a 5:00 inteval?

And no, I cannot keep that interval myself. Or even come close.

2go+h20
April 7th, 2004, 02:51 PM
Ion, Ion, Ion,
The point is not in comparing myself to others. I simply compare myself to my own goals.
The next point is that perhaps there are others out there who have just found the Joy in swimming, how good it feels to exercise and get fit in the water and can be inspired and motivated, can be given hope by others. Perhaps even in a similiar stage of life, or similiar circumstances where struggles seem enormous.
Ion, have you any understanding of what it is like to be a type 1 diabetic? Have you any notion as to how difficult it is to train and balance intake, exercise and insulin?
I have motivated and inspired many swimmers and athletes in many sports through embracing life, dealing with the cards you have been dealt, setting goals and the enormous benefits of achieving these.
I will continue to do so.
Consistency, a positive attitude, striving for new goals and new challenges is what I am all about.
My attitude is contagious.:) :) :)

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by 2go+h20
Ion, Ion, Ion,
The point is not in comparing myself to others. I simply compare myself to my own goals.
...

I do both.

To know where my goals are best achieved, I look at the environment and what percentage of it I need.

For example, I was looking at which country has the fastest Masters.
I came to the U.S..

I was working in the East of U.S..
Training conditions are limited.
Therefore, I came to work in the West of U.S..

Training conditions are less limited.
UCSD Masters is not competitive in pool races.
I came from UCSD to train with SwimSmarter in La Jolla, and got a good 2003.

Information in Swim magazine is not good.
Information in Swimnews from Canada is good.

And so on...

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Ion....
When you continue to stuff your head in the end of the barrel...you are going to get blasted....
For goodness sake.....give it a rest...

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 03:18 PM
Tom, you give it a rest if you don't contribute.

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:20 PM
I do contribute...at least I think I do....but I TRY to do it in a positive manner....

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 03:26 PM
I am more positive when being knowledgeable about data.

So that I know what's involved in how to prepare my goals.

For example, you think that when you started the VO2 shampoo joke -that many parrot now-, it is positive.

Me I think that the medical knowledge that came up in 'The Fastest Age' -amid derailing- it is positive.

And so on.

Everybody, think information, deep information, instead of superficial politically correct cliches and paranormal superstitions.

Karen Duggan
April 7th, 2004, 03:30 PM
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, my ignore button didn't work!

On a different note, on American soil, not Canadian, I, myself like the 400 IM. To me it's like an obstacle course. It's fun to watch too because the lead can change a few times. The flyers look great in the beginning, the backstrokers catch up, the breaststrokers get their revenge and the distance freestylers pounce at the end. All very entertaining!

As far as being the best overall swimmer, I would think it's somebody who excels in all of the pool events (I'm not tackling open water, another ball of wax for my purposes right now).

I like to think that I am an IMer, and I can do all of the strokes decently, but I sure get my clock cleaned sprinting. My best times 26.8, 56.8 and 2:08 will never get me in the Top 10. In my age group, somebody like Nadine Day, who excels in everything (!) would be the best overall swimmer. The Top Ten rankings are great because they don't necessarily show the best overall swimmer (although it's easy to figure out, NADINE!) but they show the achievements for the top ten in an event. It shows the rest of us how we stack up

I'm starting to ramble...

:)

nyswim
April 7th, 2004, 03:30 PM
Ion-

What exactly are your goals, time wise only, in the 100, 200 and 1000 SCY at Nationals?

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:32 PM
VO2 Max Shampoo is HUMOR!

Lighten up....


See.....I do contribute.....na, na, na......na.....na,na....(humor)

kaelonj
April 7th, 2004, 03:33 PM
So that's what I have been doing wrong, instead of sacrificing a goldfish before my swim to appease the swim gods - I should have been sacrificing a barracuda - my bad, live and learn. (in response to Ion's paranormal superstitions).

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 03:34 PM
Arguing with angry people is pointless--neither hears the other.

Arguing with angry people who are fierce competitors [like most
of us here] is worse than useless.:rolleyes:

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
VO2 Max Shampoo is HUMOR!
...

Is an attempt at humor.

Karen Duggan
April 7th, 2004, 03:34 PM
Tom, I see you've taken your humor on the road. Where ya headed if you don't mind me asking? If you're headed this way we've got lots of workout times for you to attend :)

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by nyswim
Ion-

What exactly are your goals, time wise only, in the 100, 200 and 1000 SCY at Nationals?
Just to beat my last year's times.

In December it did look good.

I am not sure now.

My body -not my mind- quit on me many times this spring...

Karen Duggan
April 7th, 2004, 03:36 PM
Well, I sure as heck don't think it's funny my ignore button is NOT working. My eyes, they burn!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tom, you are quite humorous, in an American sorta way:)

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:40 PM
Ion.....now that was a low blow man.........
Humor is much the same as art and beauty....it is in the eye of the beholder....

Hey, if no one laughs when the tree falls in the forest....did anyone hear it?

MetroSwim
April 7th, 2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

For example, you think that when you started the VO2 shampoo joke -that many parrot now-, it is positive.

Actually, in the spirit of your own statistical analysis logic, it would follow that 99.9% of discussion forum readers and participants found the VO2 Shampoo joke at least mildly amusing. You Sir, are in the bottom .1% of that group.

Also, up to this point, I remain unaware of any declarations that range beyond the limits of the rational and delve into the realm of "paranormal superstitions", except that poltergeists, UFO's, John Edward and spoon bending are considered to have the same credibility as many, if not most of your "late bloomer" arguments.

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:43 PM
Karen:
Thx for the invite...but, I am Louisville for the time being....

AND...if I can swing it....I am going to drive up to Indy to watch some of my friends swim....due to med. issues with my new hip and other things... I elected to pass this one....but would enjoy watching the show....

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Rich....
Mildly amusing? Gosh, see if I let you play in my sand box....

All kidding aside....

good post...and right on the dime....

laineybug
April 7th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Tom you are too funny. Understanding humor takes a certain kind of creative mind, a certain kind of logic to see the absurd in humor. It is not concrete facts that make life BORING. Most folks don't have the ability to twist a perspective to make it funny in the manner that you do. Many folks also don't have the ability to laugh at themselves. Keep on doing what you are doing.

Lainey

MetroSwim
April 7th, 2004, 03:49 PM
Sorry Tom, I wanted to give the benefit of the doubt... Something even an "ungineer" would have to concede.

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Thank you Lainey....

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:53 PM
It is ok Rich....I get enought laughs in the mirror every morning...

Conniekat8
April 7th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

Is an attempt at humor.

Ion, you wouldn't know humor if you tripped and fell over it.

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 03:57 PM
Connie..if he fell in the forest and no one was there would the tree hear it?

nyswim
April 7th, 2004, 04:00 PM
Ion-

Maybe you should back off a bit. If you are still doing those killer workouts you are going to be burnt out by Nats. Does your coach believe in tapers?

tjburk
April 7th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Tom, I do believe that the majority of the people that read that thread and participated in it, like myself, thought it was absolutely HILARIOUS!!! Including me!!! Ion, dude, YOU NEED to CHILL OUT MAN! Take a look around and enjoy life for once! Quit putting so much pressure on your self and enjoy swimming! You will be amazed at how much you will improve!

If anyone missed that thread it was called Ultimate Swim Times. A must read for the easily amused like me!

And ION....Yes it is FUNNY!!!

You have to be able to laugh at yourself...'cause we all know if we don't someone else sure will!!!!:D

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 04:05 PM
I am still in the dark with my question....does the tree hear it?

tjburk
April 7th, 2004, 04:08 PM
Tom...It would have been the tree that tripped him:D

Or a Force Recon guy/Ranger behind the tree!

Notice the appeasement of the Jarhead uhhum the Marine by also using a Marine type dude?:D

Scansy
April 7th, 2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
I am more positive when being knowledgeable about data.

So that I know what's involved in how to prepare my goals.

For example, you think that when you started the VO2 shampoo joke -that many parrot now-, it is positive.

Me I think that the medical knowledge that came up in 'The Fastest Age' -amid derailing- it is positive.

And so on.

Everybody, think information, deep information, instead of superficial politically correct cliches and paranormal superstitions.

Ion, I think everyone on these boards likes the real knowledge that comes up. But most of us also like to have a laugh. I can't speak for Tom, but I do think the VO2max shampoo thing was funny. And funny is positive - in a different way than information - but still positive.

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

Just to beat my last year's times.

In December it did look good.

I am not sure now.

My body -not my mind- quit on me many times this spring...

Ever hear of overtraining?

Scansy
April 7th, 2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
I am still in the dark with my question....does the tree hear it?

Not only will the tree hear it, it will even giggle a little bit.

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 04:19 PM
I'm realy worried about the tree....Tracy said it tripped him...but did it hear him fall..?

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 04:21 PM
Wow, what a relief....I'm glad the tree heard him fall....

Thx for clearing that up.....

Told you it heard him, no you didn't that was my idea...was not, was to...

tjburk
April 7th, 2004, 04:21 PM
If it did hear him when he fell, it will have to go to mandatory counselling! It will never be able to live with itself if it doesn't!:D

MetroSwim
April 7th, 2004, 04:23 PM
And spring is just a couple of weeks old!

Stress + Rest and Recovery = Improvement

Stress + More Stress = Stagnation and probable overuse injury.

When the going gets tough, the older athlete gets going...to lunch and then takes a nap. If he or she is still feeling tired the next day, they back off or face overtraining and burnout.

How many stories have we heard about top athletes (in any sport) who have had injuries in the weeks leading up to their big event, took time off and came out on top of the game because of forced rest?

MetroSwim
April 7th, 2004, 04:26 PM
But what if the tree didn't have enough sunlight until it was, say, 19 years or older? Would it qualify as a late bloomer ?

laineybug
April 7th, 2004, 04:27 PM
Tom I think it depends on whether it is a coniferous or not and whether it is an earlier or late bloomer:)

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 04:30 PM
When I was married and had a house....and all that stuff...I hated spring....they started this stupid day light savings time....and gave us an extra hour of sunshine...heck, I tried to keep a nice yard...and it got enough sun as it was ....without them adding an extra hour of sun....
How do you other guys keep your yards nice with the extra hour of sun? Maybe a good new topic...

Tom Ellison
April 7th, 2004, 04:32 PM
Rich and Elaine....you are tooooooo funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOL

MetroSwim
April 7th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
...they started this stupid day light savings time....

Hey Tom - Does that make you a "light bloomer"?

Karen Duggan
April 7th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Is the tree trying to be a "pine" in the ass?

MetroSwim
April 7th, 2004, 04:37 PM
Allright kids, it's been fun, but I have to go stand on deck and see to it that a couple of groups of late bloomers and triathletes have some fun tonight, amd maybe even get some fitness out of it.

Conniekat8
April 7th, 2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Connie..if he fell in the forest and no one was there would the tree hear it?

But the real question is, what if that was a late blooming tree?
I think we need to confer in the sandbox before scientifically answering this.

laineybug
April 7th, 2004, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
When I was married and had a house....and all that stuff...I hated spring....they started this stupid day light savings time....and gave us an extra hour of sunshine...heck, I tried to keep a nice yard...and it got enough sun as it was ....without them adding an extra hour of sun....
How do you other guys keep your yards nice with the extra hour of sun? Maybe a good new topic...

Oh that's an easy one... I pay someone else to do it! And not only do I have a purtty yard I also have two (one from DST and one from not doing yard work) more hours to go to the pool.

dorothyrd
April 7th, 2004, 05:01 PM
OK Tom, my cracks at your last bloomer remarks seem to got me kicked off the board, now I have to deal with light bloomers?

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by nyswim
Ion-

Maybe you should back off a bit. If you are still doing those killer workouts you are going to be burnt out by Nats. Does your coach believe in tapers?
The coach believes in tapers.

I respond funny to tapers.

Since I came to U.S., this Masters program is the closest to the professionalism of college varsity programs that I found across U.S..

And I include the Stanford Masters in 1996.

Yesterday's workout was:

.) technique
...................

-dives, starts, relay starts, stroke, breath control, and it gets into more technique than ever, don't look at me, there are two things that apply to my technique, one is 'you cannot teach an old dog new tricks', another is that at slow speed I deliver good technique but at high speed under the stress of the load technique is sacrificed in the process, not just for me but for Olympians too-

and

.) pace
............

-not grind, but pace-.

Yesterday, in pace 200s, I was fighting like a lion to get pathetic 2:29 in my repeats in 2:45.

Where are the 4x200 leaving every 2:30 (and coming in 2:25) that I have done Monday December 1st., and where are the 5x200 leaving every 2:30 that I have done Monday December 8th.?

My 2003 1,000 free in 12:25 would have been threatened December 1st., December 8, and many other days in January 2004.

sparx35
April 7th, 2004, 06:01 PM
....................FISH

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by MetroSwim

...
Also, up to this point, I remain unaware of any declarations that range beyond the limits of the rational and delve into the realm of "paranormal superstitions",...
...

I am not religious.

Many posters in this forum are.

When they speak about abilities -like in swimming-, they are speaking in paranormal terms.

I was educated in Europe, East and West, and Europe is secular.

aquageek
April 7th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza


I was educated in Europe, East and West, and Europe is secular.

Now, in addition to your ridiculous pontifications about swimming, we are subjected to your theological rants.

Europe - secular? Just curious what those in the Vatican would say about that. They were early bloomers to the religion thing so maybe you exclude them.

Please don't assume your individual experiences speak for an entire continent any more than your late bloomer theory applies to everyone who started swimming after age 19, or whatever the arbitrary figure you use is.

gull
April 7th, 2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

The coach believes in tapers.

I respond funny to tapers.


With the kind of yardage you put in, you should taper really well. Maybe you just haven't had the right kind of taper, or maybe the tapers were too long or too short. You should start now (of course that's just my opinion).

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by aquageek

...
Europe - secular? Just curious what those in the Vatican would say about that.
...

Ask Vatican.

For people from my generation, when I was in France, Vatican is a business.

French were secular when I was there for eleven years in the late 70s to late 80s, and are as secular as banning religious dress (veils, hats) in public places (like public schools and government buildings), four months ago.

In fact the Europeans laugh at the religiousness of U.S., and consider it a culture of third-world superstitions.

mattson
April 7th, 2004, 06:57 PM
So you are saying that these same Europeans were laughing at Albert Einstein? Christians number over 1 billion worldwide, let alone Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. (Pardon to any groups I've forgotten. :) )

Anyways...

Originally posted by Ion Beza
there are two things that apply to my technique, one is 'you cannot teach an old dog new tricks'...

That's a strange comment, from someone who claims to be constantly improving himself. There are plenty of swimmers who are learning new tricks, even those who have been training since age-group swimming.

another is that at slow speed I deliver good technique but at high speed under the stress of the load technique is sacrificed in the process, not just for me but for Olympians too

I'll let you in on a secret: it's not just you and the Olympians... it's everyone. When you read the TI book, it is stated quite clearly. The point is that you give up the minimum amount of technique while you are speeding up. If your loss of stroke length balances out your increase in stroke rate, then you've gained nothing.

Just watch Popov or any other Olympian (or elite swimmer). Even at maximum speed, their technique is much better than the average (or above average) swimmer going at any pace. Their aerobic capacity makes no difference compared to the field, because they can swim faster at any energy output.

You have already shown that your conception of front-quadrant swimming does not match what other people are saying. Can't you open your mind to the *possibility* that your conceptions of what technique means, is not what everyone else is using? That you should listen and read, and make sure you understand the terms, before you start yelling your personal definitions?

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 07:04 PM
Originally posted by mattson
So you are saying that these same Europeans were laughing at Albert Einstein? Christians number over 1 billion worldwide, let alone Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc. (Pardon to any groups I've forgotten. :) )
...

Check it out in France.

Hint:

.) I am more fluent in French than I am in English;

.) that's how well I know the French culture and the U.S. culture.

Anyway, Rich asked what paranormal claims I talk about in swimming, and I answered that it is believing in religion when it comes to abilities in swimming.

laineybug
April 7th, 2004, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

In fact the Europeans laugh at the religiousness of U.S., and consider it a culture of third-world superstitions.

That's what I thought you meant a couple of posts back.

Ion, I've LIVED (not visited) in Europe also. It was not my experience that Europeans laugh at the religiousness of the US, nor do they consider it a culture of third-world superstitions. Most respect the religious beliefs of others. And those that don't aren't restricted to Europe, the US, Middle East, etc.

Stop stating your beliefs as fact.

Lainey

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza



...................

- things that apply to my technique, one is 'you cannot teach an old dog new tricks', another is that at slow speed I deliver good technique but at high speed under the stress of the load technique is sacrificed in the process, not just for me but for Olympians to


Now you are getting what I mean....
I swam faster at age 50 than at 37 in the distance stuff...not thru
grinding out big yardage, but learning how to swim more efficiently.

You, Ion, are an old dog too. Very hard to teach...
And I have nothing to sell.

mattson
April 7th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Check it out in France.

You should consider that there is more to Europe than just France.

Anyway, Rich asked what paranormal claims I talk about in swimming, and I answered that it is believing in religion when it comes to abilities in swimming.

I've read this statement a few times, and it still doesn't make any sense. I do not remember any threads where anyone said, "the key to swimming is Jesus" (or Allah, Buddha, etc.).

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza



In fact the Europeans laugh at the religiousness of U.S., and consider it a culture of third-world superstitions.

Are you a European? Just take this question at face value, please.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by laineybug

...
Ion, I've LIVED (not visited) in Europe also.
...

Do you speak French?

I bet you don't.

I do.

The French speak in French with me, not you.

mattson
April 7th, 2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by laineybug
Stop stating your beliefs as fact.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. How often have we been told about these long lists of facts and data (that all should believe in), only to hear Ion say later that these were his personal observations and theories.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by mattson

...
You should consider that there is more to Europe than just France.
...
I've read this statement a few times, and it still doesn't make any sense. I do not remember any threads where anyone said, "the key to swimming is Jesus" (or Allah, Buddha, etc.).
I lived in France for eleven years, studied, and did visit Belgium, Germany, Austria.
It is secular.

There are plenty of posts like this, here:

Originally posted by Mark in MD

...
I am totally amazed at the guys and gals who are indeed awesome in the water ... but I also realize that each person has a special gift from God. Be it long distance...
...
Mark
Just superstions.

Instead of learning the nature in a scientific way.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by mattson

I think you've hit the nail on the head.
...

She doesn't speak French.

Neither are you.

I speak and know the French culture.

laineybug
April 7th, 2004, 07:33 PM
Ion, I'm not going to get into a language duel with you on this board, but you'd be wrong about how many languages I speak.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Well my point is that the French laugh at Americans in my presence, when they speak with me in French.

I even don't needle them on this.
They are spontaneous.

laineybug
April 7th, 2004, 07:41 PM
The last time l looked at a map, there were other countries in Europe other than France. So I'm wondering why you think a few of your cronies (birds of a feather) are representative of all Europeans.

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

Just superstions.

Instead of learning the nature in a scientific way.

Did you read the article Mark relayed re: Phelps?
Phelps is an incredible worker, but is also a "freak" [and
I mean that in a complimentary way] with regard to his
specific physiology and flexibility..whether you want
to call it God's gift or just genetics is moot.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by old dog


Now you are getting what I mean....
I swam faster at age 50 than at 37 in the distance stuff...not thru
grinding out big yardage, but learning how to swim more efficiently.

You, Ion, are an old dog too. Very hard to teach...
And I have nothing to sell.
I remember each point in this discussion.

We shall see soon...

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by old dog


Did you read the article Mark relayed re: Phelps?
Phelps is an incredible worker, but is also a "freak" [and
I mean that in a complimentary way] with regard to his
specific physiology and flexibility..whether you want
to call it God's gift or just genetics is moot.
It's science.

They say he has less lactic acid after a hard swim than others.

The chemists will find a supplement to reproduce this that will be taken like the vitamin C is taken now.

We are already not eating like two hundred years ago.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by laineybug
The last time l looked at a map, there were other countries in Europe other than France.
...

I saw Germany, Austria and Belgium, and they are secular too.

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
Well my point is that the French laugh at Americans in my presence,

Americans laugh at themselves in your presence.

Americans laugh at themselves in my presence, right Tom?:D

Americans laugh at themselves in the presence of ex-Croatian
air-gun champions!

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by old dog

Americans laugh at themselves in your presence.
...

Not as ridiculing as the French ridicule the Americans.

I posted this in 'Enjoyed the article about us, ordinary people', a judgment shared with me in a French restaurant last year:

"C'est des boeufs."

It's a culture in France to ridicule Americans, their religiousness and drive for money.

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

It's science.

They say he has less lactic acid after a hard swim than others.


Genetics or God's gift...or are you saying his lactic acid levels are due to diet? Were is the science/proof of this? Or is this
your theory?

I have read of racers taking mega-doses of CaCO3 to
counter lactic acid buildup--is this what you are saying?

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by old dog

...
Were is the science/proof of this?
...

Everything in the nature is already or soon to be discovered by science.

Not religion and superstitions.

mattson
April 7th, 2004, 08:05 PM
Can someone post which "Treehouse of Horror" episode had Homer as the Omega man? That segment had a part about the French nuking Springfield, since Mayor Quinby was making fun of the French. Hi-larious.

laineybug
April 7th, 2004, 08:07 PM
This is a secular country?

France--83 to 88 % Roman Catholic, 2% Protestant, 1 % Jewish, 5 to 10% Jewish, 4 % Unaffiliated.

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 08:10 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ion Beza

I do both.

To know where my goals are best achieved, I look at the environment and what percentage of it I need.

For example, I was looking at which country has the fastest Masters.
I came to the U.S..

... [/QUOT

I think, making a gross generalization, that most American have
as much fun as the French in ridiculing the other...

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

Everything in the nature is already or soon to be discovered by science.


When I was much younger, I used to believe this too.

My grandfather used to say, "Too soon old, too late smart".

I am not religious at all.

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by laineybug
This is a secular country?

France--83 to 88 % Roman Catholic, 2% Protestant, 1 % Jewish, 5 to 10% Jewish, 4 % Unaffiliated.
Like my native Romania.

Traditionally orthodox.

Every day secular.

That's the cultural heritage that you look at.

Not the everyday's life.

Regarding everyday's life in France, by all means, learn French.

Study in France.

Live there.

Work there.

Earn a full living there, proof of your immersion.

Read the news.

About French banning religious dress in public.

After that talk about.

old dog
April 7th, 2004, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ion Beza



"C'est des boeufs."

[/QUOTE

Long, long ago, I studied Russian, not French...please interpret..

Ion Beza
April 7th, 2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by old dog

...

"C'est des boeufs."
...
...please interpret..
...


"They are cows."

laineybug
April 7th, 2004, 08:31 PM
Ion, I have numerous relatives on both my side and my husband's side of the family who are from France.