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View Full Version : Backstroke Ledge at Nationals ?



jackback
February 3rd, 2016, 12:49 PM
I've asked one of the meet directors if the ledge would be available for the meet in Greensboro and received the answer. No. Certainly not what I expected. Last year in San Antonio, after having them available on Wed and distance day on Thurs they were removed. I spoke with the Colorado Timing rep that was at the meet who was also disappointed and had hoped they would be available this year. Has anyone ever seen/used the ledge at a masters, high school or college meet ? I have seen them at the elite Meets but no where else. When the Nationals roll around it will be almost 2 years since they were approved. I wonder how long it will be before we are able to use them ?

swimmieAvsFan
February 3rd, 2016, 12:51 PM
The ledges were not in use last year at San Antonio. The facility had them installed, but they were not allowed to be used during the meet.

MPohlmann
February 3rd, 2016, 12:54 PM
Some folks got to try the ledges in warm-ups at San Antonio, but I did not get a chance. Sure would like to try them sometime before they are offered during a meet.

jroddin
February 3rd, 2016, 03:21 PM
I've asked one of the meet directors if the ledge would be available for the meet in Greensboro and received the answer. No. Certainly not what I expected. Last year in San Antonio, after having them available on Wed and distance day on Thurs they were removed. I spoke with the Colorado Timing rep that was at the meet who was also disappointed and had hoped they would be available this year. Has anyone ever seen/used the ledge at a masters, high school or college meet ? I have seen them at the elite Meets but no where else. When the Nationals roll around it will be almost 2 years since they were approved. I wonder how long it will be before we are able to use them ?

The backstroke ledges were at the facility in San Antonio but the officials made the decision to not use them because they weren't prepared for them. This was discussed at convention this past fall in the Officials Committee and Championship Committee meetings. Here is a cut and paste from Championship Committee minutes:


F. Fin Blocks/Backstroke Ledges
Fin Blocks were new to us in 2012 (Omaha) and were at both 2015 Nationals. The backstroke ledges were available at San Antonio, but were not used for competition. Jeff said that from now on, the Officials Committee has agreed to allow them at Nationals if the host facility has them available. It was also suggested they have the ledges available in warmup sprint lanes. Kim suggested that we have a promotional video included in our electronic newsletters to the meet participants to show how to use the ledges. It was also suggested that tips for using the ledges should included with the Coach Certification clinics. Jillian will take this to the Coaches Committee.

jackback
February 3rd, 2016, 04:05 PM
thanks for the reply, jrodin ... i can't remember if the Colorado Timing Rep said that they had supplied them for San Antonio meet but that was the impression I came away with ... but maybe the school district pool we used in San Antonio had purchased them, which would be very impressive !

mrubacky
February 4th, 2016, 02:25 PM
Greensboro Aquatic Center does not have enough for both courses so that's why we chose not to have them at Spring Nationals.

pwb
February 13th, 2016, 07:56 PM
Greensboro Aquatic Center does not have enough for both courses so that's why we chose not to have them at Spring Nationals.That is a bummer. What's the cost for 10 more so we could use them? If we had a successful GoFundMe campaign to raise money for wedges at Greensboro, could we use them?

jackback
February 16th, 2016, 12:58 PM
Or if Colorado timing could supply the extra ten and gain the exposure for the product. I think they are one of USMS partners. They go for $650 a lane.

pwb
February 16th, 2016, 07:04 PM
Or if Colorado timing could supply the extra ten and gain the exposure for the product. I think they are one of USMS partners. They go for $650 a lane.So, assume they need two spare, we'd need 12 x $650 = $7,800. There were 427 unique individuals entered in the 100 backstroke back in 2012, so that's about $18 per backstroker to fund ledges. It would seem to me that, either GAC or USMS might create a win-win by running a funding campaign ... if GAC runs it, they could offset part of the capital costs to further enhance their facility. If USMS runs the funding campaign, they could have a set of ledges to be transported to future Nationals sites.

StewartACarroll
February 18th, 2016, 09:49 PM
So, assume they need two spare, we'd need 12 x $650 = $7,800. There were 427 unique individuals entered in the 100 backstroke back in 2012, so that's about $18 per backstroker to fund ledges. It would seem to me that, either GAC or USMS might create a win-win by running a funding campaign ... if GAC runs it, they could offset part of the capital costs to further enhance their facility. If USMS runs the funding campaign, they could have a set of ledges to be transported to future Nationals sites.

Great idea. I would contribute.

jackback
February 20th, 2016, 08:18 AM
ADD ME IN ! ... 424 to go !

habu987
February 24th, 2016, 10:50 AM
Going off on a bit of a tangent, the prices for the backstroke ledges are beyond absurdly high. Gotta love that oligopoly!

Back on track, I tried the backstroke ledges in the diving well at San Antonio and honestly wasn't that impressed. The two I tried malfunctioned--one wouldn't go down more than about 9 inches underwater, and the other wouldn't lock in place once I pulled it down. I did a total of 8 starts with them and wasn't super impressed. Didn't have problems with slipping, but it made me put my feet in different positions than normal for the start. Maybe something like Myrtha's (also absurdly priced) backstroke ledge would work better in my case, but I'm not heartbroken that we don't get ledges this time around.

jackback
February 24th, 2016, 06:34 PM
the range of the ledge according to the rules: adjustable 4 centimeters above or below the surface of the water ( 1.5+ inches) ... i remember the colorado timing ledges at san antonio as being able to go well below that ... i used it for practice as high as i could go and not put/curl my toes over the gutter (still against the rules) ... i wanted to get my butt as high as possible so on the start i could actually attempt to get it (my butt) airborne as opposed to plowing thru water as i currently do because i keep my feet lower to prevent slipping ... colorado timing ledges do not lock in place, once you pull it down you have to get a foot on it to secure it, it then retracts automatically after the start ... omega ledges lock into place at the start but do not retract, an official must pull them back up ... if they are supplied at a meet there use is not required

orca1946
March 5th, 2016, 12:34 PM
I was looking forward to using them - maybe some meet in the future.

jackback
April 4th, 2016, 10:36 AM
USMS April Streamlines has a nice video on how to use the Colorado Timing "Backstroke Ledge" ... out today. One of these years ! .... .... .... May i make a correction, after receiving a National meet update just now -- "Backstroke Ledges" will be in use for the meet !!!!

orca1946
April 7th, 2016, 12:19 PM
I still would like to try them. Will there be any in the warm up lanes at any time?

The Fortress
April 7th, 2016, 04:19 PM
USMS April Streamlines has a nice video on how to use the Colorado Timing "Backstroke Ledge" ... out today. One of these years ! .... .... .... May i make a correction, after receiving a National meet update just now -- "Backstroke Ledges" will be in use for the meet !!!!

I'm not getting meet updates via email (or the Streamlines), odd. I will have to search for the video.

So for sure the ledges will be in use at nationals?

jackback
April 7th, 2016, 05:46 PM
Here is the pertinent info from update # 1


http://files.ctctcdn.com/96de9d5a001/278b6e9b-256e-46f3-a689-e26878f643a0.jpg





https://static.ctctcdn.com/letters/images/1101116784221/S.gif








Facility Information

The Venue
The Greensboro Aquatic Center, which opened in 2011, is one of the United States' premier indoor aquatic facilities. If you participated in the 2012 USMS Spring Championships, then you already know what a fantastic facility it is.

The GAC features three pools--a 50-meter x 25-yard competition pool, a diving well, and an instructional pool. Colorado Time Systems backstroke ledges will be in use at this meet. See our Backstroke Start Device instructional video (http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001_om_duTEjniuTqX2etbwE0vMHutjHVwgKuHGGq dcQR69IwGagiNvHHvn3gDNgqrO3_GGi9H0Mp3VAcr5L_0vNA8q 3FfT2-ONgDvzzFdmsPI5Sja4j9ROt8eNXwa0vSmB3uHmgtJ3z0bfM66m jNDIThmTDA9M2NZHVhTEKJbAUrfW0WmexzklFrLm12TtbaU88h 2zFQO83Hw=&c=biwH7F_SLlWZwgVOF5qN_ODsrRXyH3ze26ojybcFFdyA_nYZ n4fUUw==&ch=fFoQSfoi1Z1Srl0NMCWfXnAMX_tagO4sN6c7yqeM5ZGgDHA d87Ftog==) on this great feature. The ledges will be in place on Wednesday afternoon for the warm-up period for practice.

The competition pool will be divided by twin bulkheads into two, 10-lane courses for the meet. The depth of the competition pool is 9 to 10 feet throughout. All lanes are 7-feet wide. The competition pool opens at 6 a.m. each day of the meet. The warm-up pools will be open starting at 7 a.m. and there will be 13 lanes for warm-up in the diving well and instructional pools during competition.

pwb
April 13th, 2016, 01:14 AM
so stoked the backstroke ledges will be there! Thanks to whoever made that happen!

orca1946
May 5th, 2016, 11:53 AM
I used it for the 200 back. Easy to adjust and friendly to use at the start of a race. I tried learning how to adjust it in the diving well before the race use. If you pull it down from the center rather from the side, it pulls down level .

mrubacky
May 5th, 2016, 02:04 PM
I used it for the 200 back. Easy to adjust and friendly to use at the start of a race. I tried learning how to adjust it in the diving well before the race use. If you pull it down from the center rather from the side, it pulls down level .

I used it for both medley relays and the 200 back. I agree it was very easy to use and I pulled it all the way out, placed my feet where I wanted them and let it come up under my feet. It's was definitely an advantage. Now how long before FINA decides to take them away?

orca1946
May 8th, 2016, 11:52 PM
They took away our "too fast" tech suits, so I think right after they decide it's ok for track runners but not swimmers!

orca1946
June 30th, 2016, 11:00 AM
They seem to work well for the swimmers at the olympic swim trials.Some have suggested that we go back to using the top of the touch pad rather than these new wedges. Any thoughts?

knelson
July 1st, 2016, 12:22 PM
They seem to work well for the swimmers at the olympic swim trials.Some have suggested that we go back to using the top of the touch pad rather than these new wedges. Any thoughts?

I don't think USMS is going to diverge from FINA rules so allowing toes above the water is essentially a non-starter.

Chris Stevenson
July 1st, 2016, 04:31 PM
I don't think USMS is going to diverge from FINA rules so allowing toes above the water is essentially a non-starter.

Toes are already allowed above the water; feet entirely below the surface is the old-school rule. The modern rule is that "bending the toes over the top of the touchpad is prohibited." Your toes cannot be above the lip of the gutter...but if there is no gutter at all you are okay. So if you have (gutterless) FINA touchpads you can have your entire foot out of the water if you want.

At least, that's the USMS rule, I assume it is compatible with FINA.

orca1946
July 4th, 2016, 07:20 PM
The water would have to be low to have the foot out and still on the pad, I would think.

Allen Stark
July 7th, 2016, 07:17 PM
The water would have to be low to have the foot out and still on the pad, I would think.

Not with the international pads that extend well above where the gutter would be.

orca1946
July 9th, 2016, 12:30 AM
I did not know of those. Thanx for the info.

orca1946
August 12th, 2016, 12:23 PM
Rio olympics have a ledge that must be removed by the official after each back start.
Why did they not use the "retractable" ledge we used at Greensboro?

Rob Copeland
August 12th, 2016, 01:07 PM
Why did they not use the "retractable" ledge we used at Greensboro?Because Swiss Timing is an Olympic sponsor.

jroddin
August 13th, 2016, 06:40 AM
Rio olympics have a ledge that must be removed by the official after each back start.
Why did they not use the "retractable" ledge we used at Greensboro?

The two styles each have pros and cons. There aren't many heats in the Olympics vs USMS Nationals having heats all day long (i.e. retractable units are "self service" and don't require a volunteer for each lane to move them after the start). The Greensboro facility happened to have a set of Colorado ledges (retractable style) so they rented a second set for the other course. It wouldn't have made practical/financial sense to rent two sets of the other style.

jackback
August 17th, 2016, 12:37 PM
thanks for the rental info jroddin ... out of curiosity who was the vendor for the rental and what was the fee ? ... might be interesting for meet directors

jroddin
August 17th, 2016, 04:31 PM
thanks for the rental info jroddin ... out of curiosity who was the vendor for the rental and what was the fee ? ... might be interesting for meet directors

It wasn't a vendor per se who rented them out - it was another facility in North Carolina that had them who agreed to let the Greensboro Aquatic Center borrow them for a fee.

orca1946
August 20th, 2016, 12:29 AM
Does anyone know the cost of one retractable ledge?
Where do I look to get it? I would like too purchase one for the team to use.

jackback
August 20th, 2016, 08:30 AM
I checked on the Colorado Timing site and at $650 per lane, its a little out a my league

orca1946
September 8th, 2016, 10:33 AM
Are any "used " ones for sale yet? Or is it too early ?

Rob Copeland
September 8th, 2016, 10:50 AM
Are any "used " ones for sale yet? Or is it too early ?I doubt it, but if really want one why not build it yourself? Itís a rather simple apparatus. Just a non-slip plastic wedge and a couple of straps.

FR 2.10 Backstroke Ledge
A backstroke ledge may be used:
- The ledge may be adjustable to 4 cm above or 4 cm below the water level.
- The ledge is a minimum of 65 cm in length.
- The ledge must be 8 cm in height, 2 cm at the width with 10 degrees of slope

orca1946
September 12th, 2016, 01:10 PM
I might just try that. I'll bring it to practice for others to try. Good idea - thanx.

orca1946
March 5th, 2017, 02:20 PM
I am trying to find plastic that does not float. I need to find something solid or drill holes to allow water in.