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Karen Duggan
April 3rd, 2004, 01:36 AM
People have tried to make it clear to you, Ion, that you will not be recognized by USMS or SWIM magazine unless you swim a lot faster. They have also tried to point out, in a nutshell, that your attitude comes across as sour grapes.

I am going to postulate that you would like to be recognized for overcoming whatever it is you have overcome. SWIM magazine doesn't have the space to do it. And they certainly don't have the manpower (interviewers and photographers) to cover every story there is to tell, especially in regard to overcoming adversity.

So, here it is. I wish everyone would take the chance to tell their stories. Think of it as a SWIM web page for sharing of personal histories.

I know Tom Ellison has an amazing story that I wish he would put here. I know of many other swimmers who have overcome tremendous adversity. I hope this thread will become an inspiration to us all, and that we will all realize, as I have lately, that: looking at the past can be painful, so don't (as long as you don't repeat it!), who knows what the future holds, so quit worrying about it, and be happy in the present because it's the only thing you really have control over.

Ion Beza
April 3rd, 2004, 02:13 AM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan

...
I am going to postulate that you would like to be recognized for overcoming whatever it is you have overcome. SWIM magazine doesn't have the space to do it.
...

I think that you postulate that recognition by SWIM magazine is my highest ceiling.

No.

In Canada, in the 90s, coach Howard Firby (the equivalent to George Haines (U.S.) and Don Talbot (Aus.)) and Graham Smith (world record holder in the 80s) recognized my swimming.

The biggest adversity that I overcome is to force my destiny.

I won't dwell on it, it is my private life, but in a nutshell it involves being born somewhere, forcing the issue of being elsewhere, and in the process being mentored in learning by a Fields prize contender.

(Note: the Fields prize is the equivalent to the Nobel prize, in mathematics).

Karen Duggan
April 3rd, 2004, 02:27 AM
I'm supposed to be in bed!

I'll bite. How was your swimming recognized?

Ion Beza
April 3rd, 2004, 02:52 AM
Howard Firby is dead now.

In the early 90s he said that I have a beautiful style.

At that time I was doing bilateral breathing.

I first noticed asthma symptoms and thought that it was food poisoning in 1999.

In the early 90s, Graham Smith and Tom Johnson said that I would have been a heck of a swimmer had I been started at a younger age.

I was doing then 200 meter free repeats leaving every 2:45, Long Course.

Tom Johnson is today Canada's national coach.

aquageek
April 3rd, 2004, 06:33 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza

In the early 90s, Graham Smith and Tom Johnson said that I would have been a heck of a swimmer had I been started at a younger age.



And this, folks, is the reason for the dwelling on the V02Max and early bloomer theories. Becasue he didn't start early and can't be that heck of a swimmer, an excuse was born.

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 09:05 AM
Just curious, not making fun at all because I know adults who have aquired asthma, but did you ever have signs of asthma as a child in athletics, or did it come on after your swimming started.

Geek, I have been told the same thing, too bad I did not start sooner, but I didn't, that cannot change. It is something I do quietly regret, and obviously Ion does too. By starting later you DO never know what might have been. Maybe nothing spectacular, maybe something great(in my case probably the first :) ).

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 09:09 AM
In my case I don't have a story. Just your average middle age overweight computer nerd, mother of 2, who liked to exercise but was looking for something with less impact. Tried swimming, really like it, and now it is tied with weight lifting for favorite exercise. And it did help me not to be overweight anymore, that and diet.

aquageek
April 3rd, 2004, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrd
By starting later you DO never know what might have been. Maybe nothing spectacular, maybe something great(in my case probably the first :) ).

So, why dwell on it?

Tom Ellison
April 3rd, 2004, 09:37 AM
Ion:
Just a suggestion here….
Dorothy and MarkMD are both last bloomers to our sport. NEITHER swimmer has lamented on starting late in life or used that fact to justify times that may not meet NQT’ or Top Ten Times or times that are competitive within their age groups. NOT ONE TIME!

Each of these swimmers has accepted the fact that they came to swimming late in life and are making the best of the sport they now chose to compete and enjoy. I know Mark well, he is my friend and I have talked with him many times regarding his swimming, swimming expectations, goals, stroke, attitude, swim meet strategy, swim times and most of all what he brings…(dedication) to the table we call USMS.

Marks’ attitude is one of the basic foundations or tenants of Masters Swimming. He swims to remain fit, good health, camaraderie with his fellow swimmers and for the love of the sport. Mark enters competitions and swims the best he can and never gives a second thought to WHAT times he COULD have swam had he began swimming as a child. In fact, Mark is relentless in his goal to become a faster swimmer and to someday swim NQT’s..and be more competitive within his age group.

I will not belabor my point here Ion, but suffice it to say, perhaps you should rethink your late bloomer thought process and take the lead from these two swimmers, because they are perfect examples of WINNERS…..Currently, they may not swim times that are competitive within their age groups, but they are serious winners because they do the best they can, they get the big picture as to what Masters Swimming is about and they do not make excuses for times that are slower then people who began later in life. That my friend, in my humble opinion, is United States Masters Swimming.

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 09:44 AM
I don't, I swim, I have fun. I try to improve.

I was also told that I could be a woman body builder because I pack on the muscle really well. This was in my 20's. I enjoy lifting weights but not to that extent, blah. Plus, I like to eat too much! :)

I think that some people, like Ion have a hard time letting what was, be what was. The other thing is the fact that Ion does put tremendous effort into his swimming and gets beat by what he perceives as people who do not work hard. I have seen this time and time again in the age group program. So and so's kid goes to practice works their butt off, and then this other kid who barely goes, steps up on the blocks and performs. It is a fact that people have talent in varying degrees, and there is not a darn thing any of us can do about it. Yes improvement can be made through hard work and technique, but there are times that won't be enough. My advise to the parents of the hard worker who vents is to look at their kids own personal progress and improvements, not compare to others. That is my advise to Ion also.

I guess I am just surprised to see this surface at an adult level. Most people learn this early on in life.

Anyway, geek, you gotta story, or you just a fish who swims and enjoys the water like the rest of us?

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 09:47 AM
Gosh Tom, I am blushing, thanks.

Seriously, I decided I am just going to outlast the competition. Longevity is in my family, and I noticed the numbers of swimmers go down seriously after a certain age. If I can't get there by time, I will get there by age! :)

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 09:49 AM
Of course Nadine will follow along and break every record I am going to get in the 90 year category and break it since she is 10 years younger than me. Dang!

aquageek
April 3rd, 2004, 09:55 AM
No story here, just love the water.

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 10:07 AM
Surprisingly, that is what I discovered. It just feels really, really good to swim. It made me understand why my children go to practice without too much complaining. Why they can be in a terrible mood before practice and come out whistling.

I can feel good after a hard weight lifting session, or a cardio class of some sort, but not the way I feel after swimming.

It also made me understand how difficult it is. And how a child can not be expected to go to a meet and attain best times everytime. Another thing I see parents do. I think every swim parent should get in and try a meet. It will make them understand how much meets take out of their kids and that every competitor just does what they have in them that day. No child purposely throws a race.

Another topic, I know.

gull
April 3rd, 2004, 10:58 AM
Since the thread was dedicated to Ion:

I don't dispute the fact that he has done well in spite of his late start. He's posted some solid times and is close to the NQT for the 1000, no small feat for a late starter. His dedication to the sport and his work ethic are impressive. What I object to is the way he tries to arbitrarily handicap the system to place himself at or near the top of USMS swimmers, in the process discounting or dismissing the efforts and achievements of others. I don't believe this represents good sportsmanship, which is part of being a great athlete.

Tom Ellison
April 3rd, 2004, 12:11 PM
Well said Craig....

Karen Duggan
April 3rd, 2004, 12:31 PM
Cool, more stories please from other people :)

Ion, please. It doesn't matter your age when you are told you do something well. You just feel good about it, build on it, and most of all please be quiet about it. It says nothing positive about character if you dwell on the: could have been, should have been, would have been.

In sum, good for you for finally sharing something positive about yourself, on the other hand you linked it to an excuse...

Ion Beza
April 3rd, 2004, 12:33 PM
I think that you have strong differences in personality between me and others here:

Originally posted by Tom Ellison

...
Dorothy and MarkMD are both last bloomers to our sport. NEITHER swimmer has lamented on starting late in life or used that fact to justify times that may not meet NQT’ or Top Ten Times or times that are competitive within their age groups. NOT ONE TIME!

Each of these swimmers has accepted the fact that they came to swimming late in life and are making the best of the sport they now chose to compete and enjoy. I know Mark well, he is my friend and I have talked with him many times regarding his swimming, swimming expectations, goals, stroke, attitude, swim meet strategy, swim times and most of all what he brings…(dedication) to the table we call USMS.

Marks’ attitude is one of the basic foundations or tenants of Masters Swimming. He swims to remain fit, good health, camaraderie with his fellow swimmers and for the love of the sport. Mark enters competitions and swims the best he can and never gives a second thought to WHAT times he COULD have swam had he began swimming as a child. In fact, Mark is relentless in his goal to become a faster swimmer and to someday swim NQT’s..and be more competitive within his age group.
...

and

Originally posted by Karen Duggan

...
You just feel good about it, build on it, and most of all SHUT UP ABOUT IT. It says nothing positive about character if you dwell on the: could have been, should have been, would have been.
...

As I wrote earlier, "The biggest adversity that I overcome is to force my destiny.".

In swimming, but more importantly in life.

It is a heavy statement.

In one hand you have content people.

In another hand you have me being discontent.

In July 2002, I posted this quote from George Bernard Shaw:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.

Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

Content people don't force things much, they accept and go along with things the way they are, and often don't exercise courage.

Discontent people achieve more when they are breaking grounds.

In my lifestyle I don't value much content people who thrive on conformity.

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 01:27 PM
Hmmm, I read this and actually decided to go out in the beautiful weather(finally) and do some work and think.

First of all, I don't think you are dealing with a bunch of content sit on your butt kind of people. That just does not strike me as the tone of these forums. I do think we are mostly happy people and there is a difference. I can be happy and content in some things, and work on making change where needed in other things.

About being content or uncontent, that is two extremes. You can be uncontent about something, work to affect change, but be positive about how you are doing it. There are sometimes a lot of good in something, and maybe a little bad that you want to change. You don't want to tear down and trash the good with the bad. You want to make change in a positive way.

You also come across at being unhappy and uncontent in everything and it looks like nothing would make you happy. Since this is a written format and it is hard to discern feeling, that very well may not be true. I hope not, being uncontent all the time may help the world change, but it does not seem like a very happy way to go through life. Since you seem to distain content, happy people, that maybe OK with you.

It is too nice of a day after endless rain to spend on the computer.
HAve a nice day.

Karen Duggan
April 3rd, 2004, 02:11 PM
Ion, I suppose we're all guilty of deciding what people actually "mean". It seems like when people tell you what they think you are saying, you change what you are saying, or skew people's words or thoughts.

I frankly couldn't care less if you are discontent. Again, just "be quiet" about it. People know who you are and what you're all about, you make it quite clear.

However, don't you ever DARE to say whether I am content or not. You don't know me... and by the way I feel quite certain that I would dominate your sob stories on land, as I would dominate your swimming in the pool. Obviously, you've ticked me off. But I digress... I just choose not to comingle my personal adversity with my swimming. In fact my swimming, along with my husband, has "saved" me.

And by the way, I am content with who I am, my achievements and my failures. I have chosen not to repeat my failures and that continually helps me become a better person.

So, in regards to this thread, you've ruined another one! This was to be a positive, feel good idea... oh well.

Have fun responding to this one. Make sure you check my grammar and punctuation carefully.

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 03:20 PM
Karen, you tried, thanks for that. I was not going to mention that you could probably whoop him in the pool, even after 4 children!

laineybug
April 3rd, 2004, 03:35 PM
Ignore the _________ the __________ dishes out. Anything other than that serves to reinforce the ___________!

aquageek
April 3rd, 2004, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza


In my lifestyle I don't value much content people who thrive on conformity.

I, for one, find it awfully hard to believe that you prefer malcontent, bitter, jaded people. Given the uplifting way you compliment others and encourage good swimming, it comes as a complete shock that you prefer to be an angry person.

Also, your posts are so darn strange anymore that it's becoming harder to discredit your lack of facts.

zoomer
April 3rd, 2004, 04:10 PM
I'm not a big fan of the arguing on these threads. There are posts from Ion and others that I agree with; there are posts that I don't agree with. Clearly, however, the point of this thread was to inflame Ion. When you egg him on and he responds, you pounce. Actually, his last response was very thoughtful - he stated his philosophy. He didn't insist that you agree with him - it was his opinion. He never said that you weren't content, but twice he has been told to "shut up". Real nice.

Mark in MD
April 3rd, 2004, 07:20 PM
I just walked in the door from the Colonies Zone Meet. When I read Tom's post that mentions me, I darned near fell off the chair here at my desk when I saw it! :o I am extremely humbled to know that Tom would share his thoughts concerning my love of my new found sport.

For the record, Tom's comments were not solicited by yours truly, hence my total surprise. My participation in USMS is that I am doing it for what Tom said: ... to remain fit, good health, camaraderie with his fellow swimmers and for the love of the sport. I never thought of it any differently. Speaking of remaining fit, I've keep off the 60 pounds I lost almost 2 years ago. (By the way Dorothy, I've added weight training to the fitness regimen.)

Also for the record, and Tom knows this as well, I do regret not having swam in age group swimming, high school and/or college. My parents didn't support me in any kind of sport as a kid. This saddens me, but I don't internalize over it. Why? Simply because life too darned short to worry about the past. You cannot fix the past, but one can direct one's future to a certain extent. USMS has given me the chance to do stuff I couldn't do at, say, 12. And it's been the greatest challenge in life, well except for my senior recital in college. (See next paragraph.)

When I go to a meet, my expectation is to do better than I did at the last meet. PERIOD. If I don't so be it. There's the next time and the next and the next. I know full well that, to me, learning to swim well is like learning amusical instrument, no, studying a musical instrument. It takes practice. This is not an overnight journey.

I am totally amazed at the guys and gals who are indeed awesome in the water ... but I also realize that each person has a special gift from God. Be it long distance for Tom, or Dorothy who juggles her swimming schedule with her kid's schedule, the many yards Ion puts in a week and for many, many more folks I have met on this Forum and in person. Therefore, I realize that I am blessed with a musical ability that people remind me about and am not shamed to share it with others, hence the picture of me in my avatar. I share it at my Church. BTW, playing my chosen instrument, viz, the organ is not a piece of cake. It requires reading the music while operating the instrument's controls, the keyboards being played by the two hands and the pedal keyboard played with two feet. (Note picture for clarification. Get the idea?) ALL SIMULTANEOUSLY. (Now when I get my breaststroke and butterfly as coordinated as this, I will have it made!) Sorry for the digression here. :(

Anyway, I still feel strongly that everyone's into USMS for one reason or another, has "their own story" and has various levels of ability. I consider all the members of USMS as part of my extended family now. It is my sincere wish that we respect each other's level of ability and refrain in the future from this endless "I am better than you" stuff.

By the way, and this is not a mutual adoration society here, Tom Ellison remains foremost in my mind as a prime example who overcame more stuff than most other folks could ever possibly endure to prove that one can move past adversity. That's "All Right Stuff" to me.

Thank you for your time. Kindest regards.

Mark

laineybug
April 3rd, 2004, 07:29 PM
why did I get four copies of Mark's post?

aquageek
April 3rd, 2004, 07:57 PM
Mark:

How in the world do you play that thing?

dorothyrd
April 3rd, 2004, 08:03 PM
Nice post Mark. My Dad and sis played one of those, I never learned. My music is in my voice. A little easier to play!

Weight training does great things for you, keep it up!

Mark in MD
April 3rd, 2004, 09:22 PM
Sorry Elaine. I had to delete the post three times before getting the picture right. Aquageek, it's is as easy for me as some say the 'fly is for them.

Conniekat8
April 4th, 2004, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Ion Beza
In another hand you have me being discontent.

You need to learn to keep your discontent to yourself, and not dish it out on other people.
Appearance of content is not the same as complasancy.
I think you're confusing comfort with complaisancy.

I appear content most of the time, but that never prevents me from moving forward with new ideas, meking decisions or improving. It can all be done without all the negativity that you seem to emit.

You've heard od 'savants'. Don't be one, immerse yourself in social studies some, and find balance that you lack.
That will be noteworthy accomplishment.

Karen Duggan
April 4th, 2004, 01:34 AM
Zoomer,
(a calm question- not at all sarcastic, truly) I don't know how you came up with the idea that this thread was to inflame Ion? It was taking a constantly negative "thing" and putting a positive spin on it. Ion's posts did inspire it. I have better things to do than try to inflame Ion, besides I've decided I'm discontent and need some challenges, inflaming Ion isn't a challenge (from what I've seen). Now, keeping me from becoming inflamed, that's another story!
I am really hoping to hear what goes on in the lives of other Master's swimmers. There is such huge diversity out there! On our own team we have Olympians and 50 year olds learning to swim; millionaires and USS coaches barely making a living, we have teachers, cops, judges, doctors, nurses, etc... and everyone is truly fascinating. I think that's one cool thing about Masters- everybody is old enough to have had an interesting life, or at least interesting experiences.
Again, let me reiterate my intent was not to inflame Ion. I'm sorry that that was your interpretation. Going to Nationals?

gull
April 4th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Conniekat8
Appearance of content is not the same as complacency.
I think you're confusing comfort with complacency.

Good point. My impression is that he doesn't seem to think that anyone else in USMS cares as much about or puts as much effort into their swimming as he does. Judging from the last meet I attended, I would say this is a false assumption on his part.

Ion Beza
April 4th, 2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Zoomer,
(a calm question- not at all sarcastic, truly) I don't know how you came up with the idea that this thread was to inflame Ion? It was taking a constantly negative "thing" and putting a positive spin on it.
...

I agree with Zoomer:

you started this thread with a controversy that I wanted to correct and repeatedly you wrote that I should shut up amongst other flaming things.

As for taking a negative thing and putting a positive spin on it, I wrote about forcing the destiny.

For me, forcing the destiny beats temporal adversities.

It's not being deterministic -as in superstitiously believing that a fairy idol in the sky controls people- but instead it is being in charge with learning material factors.

(This means in my life, forcing myself to learn mathematics and Engineering -whose strict analytical thinking is feared by most people- then risk with it being in a country whose culture is new;
three countries in my life are apart from where I was born, so they are part of me forcing the destiny;
it also means in my life to be in charge to live in a chosen city in the new country by performing the profession that I was trained for in another country;
it also means in my life to take charge of being more ambitious in swimming than most USMS people are -not content with the mentality of 'whatever'- by studying and applying factors like VO2Max.)

I won't be posting in this thread anymore.

aquageek
April 4th, 2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Ion Beza


I won't be posting in this thread anymore.

Promise?

SWinkleblech
April 4th, 2004, 10:57 PM
I just got back from a wonderful weekend swimming in my regional championship. It truly reminded me what master swimming is all about. I made a great friendship with someone who I competed with in the past and next year I'll be in the same age group swimming against her again. Yet that doesn't matter. What matters is that now we will encourage each other to do our best.

I am in agreement with Mark. My goal is to try and swim faster then I have in other meets. Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. This weekend I only brought one of my times down out of seven.

After swimming a total of 2200 yrds in events, I had to get in the water for my last event which was the 400 I.M. My arms were killing me but I made it through. When I got out of the water I said a thank you to my daughter for being such a great cheerleader throughout the meet. She responded by saying "but you didn't win anything". This is when I explained to her that it is not about winning all the time. The most important thing is you get in and do the best you possibly can do on that day.
I might have only brought one of my times down but when I consider all that I have accomplished I am proud that I am even in the water. I may not be the best swimmer but I am a champion in my own heart. And I hope that all of us, no matter what are abilties are, feel the same way.


P.S. My team did win the championship in their division for the first time ever!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

Glenn
April 4th, 2004, 11:50 PM
SWinklebelch,

Bravo!!!! That's what Masters Swimming is all about. Well done. You are a champion:)

lefty
April 5th, 2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Ion, please. It doesn't matter your age when you are told you do something well. You just feel good about it, build on it, and most of all SHUT UP ABOUT IT.

Karen I am sure that you did not mean to let your emotions get the best of you, but you did. Telling someone to "SHUT UP" just is not right. If you do not have enough respect to speak to someone in an adult fashion, then perhaps you should not be speaking to them at all.

The thing about Ion is he has somehow built this reputation of being a horrible villain. IN fact, Ion is just like you and me, accept he is a little more intense about his passions. So ION thinks that he could have been an Olympic Champion had he started as a youth. What do you (the plural you - not Karen) care? Why does ANYONE make ION's business their own? We all have out idiosyncrasies, that is what keeps life interesting!

Finally, Karen, you say that you did not start this thread to throw darts at ION but then you go and tell him to "SHUT UP." Clearly you have hostility towards him and it seems a little silly to insist that you were not antagonizing Ion by starting this thread.

aquageek
April 5th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by lefty


IN fact, Ion is just like you and me, accept he is a little more intense about his passions. So ION thinks that he could have been an Olympic Champion had he started as a youth. What do you (the plural you - not Karen) care? Why does ANYONE make ION's business their own?

No, Lefty Ion isn't like me at all. Matter of fact, he doesn't appear to be like anyone else on this forum.

Mark in MD
April 5th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
... Dorothy and MarkMD are both last bloomers to our sport. NEITHER swimmer has lamented on starting late in life or used that fact to justify times that may not meet NQT’ or Top Ten Times or times that are competitive within their age groups. NOT ONE TIME! ... I just realized something here that just tickles me. Tom might have created another category of bloomers ... last bloomers. Hey Dorothy, are we the last bloomers to come along? Ha!

lefty
April 5th, 2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by aquageek


No, Lefty Ion isn't like me at all. Matter of fact, he doesn't appear to be like anyone else on this forum.

Sorry Geek, Ion breaths eats and sleeps just like the rest of us. Ion has worries, Ion has goals, Ion has cares. In short he is a human being. The same can be said about you and me too! So no matter how mad I WANT to get at you, I think, ahh that's just Geek being Geek!

swimshark
April 5th, 2004, 03:09 PM
P.S. My team did win the championship in their division for the first time ever!!!!!!!!!!!!:D [/B][/QUOTE]

Congrats!!!

DocWhoRocks
April 5th, 2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by SWinkleblech

P.S. My team did win the championship in their division for the first time ever!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

I hate you. There is no team here :( Unless me, myself, & I count as a team. But still that's only 3, leaving us 1 short for a relay.

Congrats :D

Conniekat8
April 5th, 2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by lefty

Why does ANYONE make ION's business their own? We all have out idiosyncrasies, that is what keeps life interesting!


Are you really serious asking "why does anyone...?"
If you are, go re-read Toms post that says "What have we become", especially the part about raw emotions. Tom has explained it rather well.

If that was a rhetorical question, then you're kind of doing the same thing that people whom you're judging for telling Ion to shut up are doing. Just in a slightly more polished and indirect manner.

Why do people make Ions business their own... Because he uses so many generalizations and lumps people together in categories, then gives a very negative arrogant and condescending opinion of those groups.

This is bound to either outright hurt people's feelings, or at the minimum play into people's insecurities. People who can let it just roll off their back are far and few in between.
When that happens, people tend to react with defensiveness or a counter attack.

One person does't have any more or less right to their own feelings as the next.

One thing I must point out, lefty, is that you are being defensive of Ions imperfections, but are being judgemental of the imperfections of his recent opposition. That seems little unfair to me. You're appealing to the 'opposition' to behave appropriately, and pointing out what is out of line, while you're making excuses for Ion. Are you trying to get people to give Ion special consideration for his personality? More than you are giving others? I'm wondering why? Do you feel Ion is inferior, and needs special consideration and protection?

As for Ion... At some point maybe he will remember the consequences of attacking a number of people at once to protect his ego, and learn from it.

I also think that when Ion starts putting people down they shouldn't be obligated to just hush up and take it, if it bothers them. Noone should be exposed to that. Yes, that would include Ion too. The trouble starts when he takes discussions too personally and not very objectively, and switches to personal attacks. It would behoove Ion to put some effort into expanding his personality little more in that directon.

I understand you may feel for Ion especially because he is outnumbered here... But, he's a big boy, let him fight his own battles. Trying to referee arguments with a lot of hurt feelings is not a good thing to be stepping in the middle of, since most often you're not dealing with rational objectivity, but with riled up emotion. There's no reasoning with emotion. It's best to let it subside.

mattson
April 5th, 2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by lefty
Sorry Geek, Ion breaths eats and sleeps just like the rest of us. Ion has worries, Ion has goals, Ion has cares.

An orangutan has those same qualities. But you notice that I don't compare a primate to Ion... In this electronic forum, we can only respond based on what people post. Ion and AquaGeek do not post the same.

AquaGeek doesn't need an defending, but maybe Lefty remembers reading a certain thread. (It may have been the accidently deleted thread.) AG said (in his own way) that people shouldn't resort to personal attacks against Ion. Well, a few pages later, Ion took pieces of Geek's post, out of context, and used it as an example of how AquaGeek was resorting to personal attacks against Ion. (!!) AG noticed this, called Ion on the issue, and failed to receive a response (let alone an apology). Whenever I feel that AG is going over the top, or that Ion needs defending, I try to use this episode (among many others) to keep my priorities straight.

dorothyrd
April 5th, 2004, 05:30 PM
I don't know how to do the quotes dang it! But I am laughing at Mark in Md's post. I noticed the "last bloomer" thing too. I wonder if we are suppose go around wacking people in the knees to make sure we are THE last bloomers! Or maybe just add a new category and use our VO2 shampoo.


I decided not to correct the post because I feel it is rude and petty to correct other peoples spelling, although Tom would certainly get a chuckle out of what he put! Anyway, you guys made me laugh once again today, thanks!

dorothyrd
April 5th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Hmmm, Connie is a late bloomer, does that mean I need to hunt her down at Nationals and make sure I am the last bloomer. Devious minds want to know.:D

SWinkleblech
April 5th, 2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by DocWhoRocks


I hate you. There is no team here :( Unless me, myself, & I count as a team. But still that's only 3, leaving us 1 short for a relay.

Congrats :D

My team goes from one to three so I know how you feel being the only one (I am usually the one. Unless I do what you do and split myself into three.) This year we had three. One short of that relay. Our league splits us into divisions so that we all have a chance to win something according to our team size. This year we finally had a chance and won our division. We already lost one of our swimmers so next year we are back down to two again unless I can convince some people to join. I see a lot of good swimmers at my pool but no one seems to want to join masters.
Does anyone have any great recruiting ideas?

Mark in MD
April 5th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by dorothyrd I don't know how to do the quotes dang it! But I am laughing at Mark in Md's post. I noticed the "last bloomer" thing too. I wonder if we are suppose go around wacking people in the knees to make sure we are THE last bloomers! Or maybe just add a new category and use our VO2 shampoo.Dorothy, let's whack, using a kickboard. Or should Tom have the honors?

If you want to use the quotes, just look for for the "QUOTE" button at the lower right of the poster's dialogue box. It will open a new window to post a note which include the quote. You can use all or take out what you want. Just give it a whack and try it! :D :D :D

dorothyrd
April 5th, 2004, 10:08 PM
Or throw pull bouys at them while they are swimming. I have a pretty good arm!

dorothyrd
April 5th, 2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Mark in MD
Dorothy, let's whack, using a kickboard. Or should Tom have the honors?

If you want to use the quotes, just look for for the "QUOTE" button at the lower right of the poster's dialogue box. It will open a new window to post a note which include the quote. You can use all or take out what you want. Just give it a whack and try it! :D :D :D

See I did it! How about that!

Karen Duggan
April 5th, 2004, 10:31 PM
I will go back and change shut up to "be quiet". I will not however change my intention that this thread was not to throw darts at Ion. Heck I'll change the name of the thread too, if I can.
I have been speaking to, and e-mailing (privately, obviously) to, many, many people enquiring about Ion, because I couldn't believe that someone like him... again I digress.

In short everyone I've talked to has said to ignore him. I will. I apologize to anyone I've offended. I did resort to the emotional level of the 6th graders I teach. Something else to learn from and not repeat. I'm done.

I'll stick to the posts that are refreshing, fun, and about swimming.

PS Can someone teach me about this coveted ignore button? I don't know how to do it! :)

Scansy
April 5th, 2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by dorothyrd


See I did it! How about that!

Don't feel bad Dorothy. It took me about a year to figure that one out myself! I guess all that swimming has made my brain slower. Or maybe it is a side effect of VO2max shampoo.:(

KenChertoff
April 5th, 2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Can someone teach me about this coveted ignore button? I don't know how to do it! :)

It's at the bottom of the profile of the person you want to ignore, on the right hand side. An "ignored" person's posts are listed, without the text showing, but you still see the replies to those posts.

Mark in MD
April 6th, 2004, 08:13 AM
Originally posted by dorothyrd See I did it! How about that! You go girl! Aquageek will be real proud of ya!

Mark in MD
April 6th, 2004, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Scansy Don't feel bad Dorothy. It took me about a year to figure that one out myself! I guess all that swimming has made my brain slower. Or maybe it is a side effect of VO2max shampoo.:( Paul! Try using another sport. :D

lefty
April 6th, 2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by Conniekat8

If that was a rhetorical question, then you're kind of doing the same thing that people whom you're judging for telling Ion to shut up are doing. Just in a slightly more polished and indirect manner.

One thing I must point out, lefty, is that you are being defensive of Ions imperfections, but are being judgemental of the imperfections of his recent opposition. That seems little unfair to me. You're appealing to the 'opposition' to behave appropriately, and pointing out what is out of line, while you're making excuses for Ion. Are you trying to get people to give Ion special consideration for his personality? More than you are giving others? I'm wondering why? Do you feel Ion is inferior, and needs special consideration and protection?

Connie, I assure you I am not being judgemental of the "opposition." Rather, as a community I don't think we can move on from this mindless bickering until someone stands up and says, "I am going to be the better man (or woman) and accept the others for who they are." Because it is (unfortnuately) clear that Ion won't be that person I am hoping that others might. So reading between the lines, YES, you could say that I hold the "opposition" to a higher standard. (or in your words, that ION needs special consderation.)

This statement:


Originally posted by Conniekat8

As for Ion... At some point maybe he will remember the consequences of attacking a number of people at once to protect his ego, and learn from it.

is quite interesting. I think that some of the criticisms are meant to help steer ION in the right direction, but mostly "the consequences" of which you speak are directionless pointed middle fingers meant only to appease the temporary anger that ION draws up in all of us.

Tom Ellison
April 6th, 2004, 10:58 AM
Ok, lets' everyone play nice in the sand box today....

Give me my truck back, no, I want that scoop, hey, I want the loader, no, It's mine, is not, to, not...give me that, no...can't use my front end loader, can to, not...Mommy, Jimmy wont let use his loader.....tattle tail....pphhhhh...

:D

mattson
April 6th, 2004, 11:05 AM
Tom, if you've never heard it, you should listen to Bill Cosby talk about the children's playground. ("No one got killed... and then they moved in the monkey bars.) :)

Tom Ellison
April 6th, 2004, 11:06 AM
I had moneky bars once....

Mark in MD
April 6th, 2004, 11:19 AM
Did they have them back then? :p

Karen Duggan
April 6th, 2004, 12:21 PM
Am I the "opposition"? Like I said, I'm done. I don't want to be the opposition. I want to be the "competition". That's another fun part of Master's swimming ;)

Conniekat8
April 6th, 2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by lefty


is quite interesting. I think that some of the criticisms are meant to help steer ION in the right direction, but mostly "the consequences" of which you speak are directionless pointed middle fingers meant only to appease the temporary anger that ION draws up in all of us.

Well, some people are able to channel their anger or frustration into constructive criticisam. Others are not.
There is purpose for both. Perhaps like a good cop-bad cop routine. Some people may benefit from getting feedback on both fronts.

Accepting people for what they are is not consitent with appealing to them to 'raise to the occasion'.

I have real truoble with accepting Ion the way he is, and not accepting others the way they are. Why should Ion be let off the hook at the expense of invalidating feelings of number of other people? Especially if they're 'nicer' and being held in higher regard?
If anything, it is a lot less work accepting many other people the way they are, then it is accepting Ion the way he is. I don't particularly want to invest that much emotional energy into interacting with someone like that, on a rather social level (this group). If I was at work, and he was my boss or a coworker, I'd have to style flex to him in order to get along and get the work done. In my free time... I get to choose.

I would prefer to be consistent with hiw Ion sees himself, he claims to be superior, and I'll go along with it, and hold him to a higher standard then the rest of us "lowly lazy USMS cohorts", hold him to a standard that he say he is at.

I think it is very unfair to ask the 'nice' people to carry the emotional burden of Ions behavior, while making special consideration for him. Why? To keep the peace?
Is it so important to keep the peace, that it has to be at the emotional expense of the nice people in here? Does the display of emotion make you feel uneasy and uncomfortable?

I understand your point, but I don't completely agree with it.

I think it's safe to say most of the people here thought of 'backing off' before you mentioned it, and the emotion was too strong to push away.
Those who had the emotional strenght to back off and 'be a better man' as you said, already did, before you brought it up. Others... who may have gotten more upset or hurt, or whatever, will only feel judged and invalidated by your appeals to be 'the better person'.
Yeah, the same was happening with Ion, and his feelings, as much as he would hate to admit it.

Asking people to 'stuff it' creates an uneasy truce, and on the long run perpetuates the conflict because invalidated feelings tend to pile up.
If you want peace, you need to come up with a more of a win/win situation, rather than asking the 'nicer' people to give in, which is a losing proposition to them.

As for what you're hoping people will be, or how they'll behave... that's another setup for disappointment. Have fewer expectations, and observe more.

Pointless bickering that your'e seeing, it's not so pointless, you're seeing people's emotional defense mechanisams at work. Anger stems from hurt feelings, and aggresion (bickering and counterattacks) are a pretty basic defense mechanisam to remove the source of the hurt. On both parts, Ions and the 'opposition'.

Conniekat8
April 6th, 2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Ok, lets' everyone play nice in the sand box today....

Give me my truck back, no, I want that scoop, hey, I want the loader, no, It's mine, is not, to, not...give me that, no...can't use my front end loader, can to, not...Mommy, Jimmy wont let use his loader.....tattle tail....pphhhhh...

:D
;)
Sandbox?
I'm a cat, you know what cats do in sandboxes.
I'm sorry, I'm just a cat, and can't help it. Y'all are just gonna have to stuff it and pretend and pretend to like it.
Cause I'm one cool cat, ns deserve special treatment! [looks at everyone down her whiskers]
;)
[ I think my cat-food got ionized this morning ;) ]

Scansy
April 6th, 2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Ok, lets' everyone play nice in the sand box today....

Give me my truck back, no, I want that scoop, hey, I want the loader, no, It's mine, is not, to, not...give me that, no...can't use my front end loader, can to, not...Mommy, Jimmy wont let use his loader.....tattle tail....pphhhhh...

:D

DON'T DO THAT!:mad:

I get enough of that from my two sons at home. Heck, I used to work for money, now I do it just to get some time away from the kids.:)

Scansy
April 6th, 2004, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Conniekat8

;)
Sandbox?
I'm a cat, you know what cats do in sandboxes.
I'm sorry, I'm just a cat, and can't help it. Y'all are just gonna have to stuff it and pretend and pretend to like it.
Cause I'm one cool cat, ns deserve special treatment! [looks at everyone down her whiskers]
;)
[ I think my cat-food got ionized this morning ;) ]

Well, now we know why Tom has that front end loader - to clean out the sand box.:eek:

Tom Ellison
April 6th, 2004, 03:32 PM
Yea, and to put sand in Jimmy's pants when he tattled tailed me....

Conniekat8
April 6th, 2004, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Scansy


Well, now we know why Tom has that front end loader - to clean out the sand box.:eek:

Wahaddaya mean clean out??? :eek:
My ***t doesn't stink!
I take offense to that!
Now I'm gonna dig up all of your sandcastles and mess up all of your games, cause they're just stooopid! I'm too good for your silly games.
Waaaah wahhhh, you guys are mean to me, waaah waaaah!

;) :p

[PS. How is my impersonation going so far?]

Tom Ellison
April 6th, 2004, 03:41 PM
girls......

Tom Ellison
April 6th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Connie......"the Rich Little of Sand Box impersonations"....

Gosh Connie....it is kind of scary how well you did that impersonation....:)

Conniekat8
April 6th, 2004, 04:18 PM
good impersonation?
Well, long ago and far away, I did say that I understand.
Understanding, approving and liking are very differentthigns, they don't always go along.

You know, it could be like Coffee, understand andapprove of it, but not like it,
or it could be like affairs, understand and like it, but not approve of it.
Or like swimming, like and approve of it, but not completely understand it.

Well, that concludes this session of my sandbox philosophizing (before I strain a braincell)

Where's that front-loader?

[Okay, shut up Kitty! It's bad when you start amusing yourself]

Tom Ellison
April 6th, 2004, 05:43 PM
Where's that front-loader?

Wow Connie:
You leave room for some rather interesting, creative and colorful replies to that question….Ahhhh, I’m not going there…....

I will....hush up....no I wont...Connie, it's in the right far corner of the san box, he hides it just under the sand....

Scansy
April 6th, 2004, 06:53 PM
I think I have sand in my shorts!:(

Hmmmm...I'll just pull them down to get the sand out while nobody is looking....


HEY, DON'T PEEK!

:D

Conniekat8
April 6th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Where's that front-loader?

Wow Connie:
You leave room for some rather interesting, creative and colorful replies to that question….Ahhhh, I’m not going there…....

I will....hush up....no I wont...Connie, it's in the right far corner of the san box, he hides it just under the sand....

Well, that was my MLTIC (multi-level-tongue-in-cheekness) moment ;)

Yeah, were is that little thang, I need to go do a better job at burying it, it's starting to emit odors all over again.