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BettyL
February 9th, 2017, 04:23 PM
What's the best way to build endurance for 200 stroke events or mid to distance free?
some people at my pool tell me to do tons of repeats with only 5 sec rest if 25s, and only 10 sec rest if 50s or 100s.
this doesn't work for me if I'm doing stroke or IM. My form breaks down after not that many repeats and I have to add more and more effort only to get slower and slower. ( and get less and less rest - double whammy!)

i know some people will do 20-40 repeats of 25 at race pace to develop a 200 but what should be the work to rest ratio?

i also know there is a science behind all this. Different intervals to train creatine phosphate energy system (ultra short) anaerobic energy system, and aerobic. Sometimes I think it might be better to give myself longer rest, like 20 sec on a 50 stroke so that I have time to clear lactate and each 50 is cleaner. But how do I train my body to clear lactate more quickly so I can actually complete a 200 stroke with quality.

People say do lactate threshold sets, but again I don't know what that really means for me in terms of work to rest ratio, and what intensity of effort in the work part?

i just did a 200 fly as 3.46 even though I was able to pull off a total swim time of 3.28 as a broken swim in practice coming in under 52 per 50 @ 1:00. I didn't think that was much rest to make that much difference but apparently 8 seconds is too much to be realistic

i think i am I am beating myself up thinking I have to workout more and more to gain endurance but maybe I am just overtraining because I'm not making the improvements I'd like to see for how often I practice.

any suggestions for me?
thanks in advance!

Allen Stark
February 9th, 2017, 05:04 PM
The standard USRPT set for 200s and up is 50s with 20 sec rest. Your goal time is 1/4 of your 200 goal time. If you miss the goal time you skip the next send off. If you miss it twice in a row, or three times total, the set is finished. I also like to do 100s with the goal time of the second 100 split of the 200. I give myself a lot of rest for those, enough to make the time, maybe 2x the swim time.

BettyL
February 9th, 2017, 08:08 PM
Thanks for the tips. How many should I expect to be able to do to convince myself I can come close to the goal splits when I swim the full event unbroken?

sickfish
February 10th, 2017, 04:51 AM
Just swim the full 200 fly once a week in practice. You know you'll go that fast or faster in the meet. And, if you do USRPT (and I'm not saying you should) you'll know what that means for you in terms of X 50s at Y means Z time.

If you're swimming actual fly in practice, more rest, and thus quality fly, is your friend. Don't make 50s with five seconds rest a goal set - you may as well just do a race simulation at that point. When I trained for the 200 (I managed to get down into the 2:20 range) I did a lot of mixed free/fly sets, basically alternating strokes every 25 or 50. I think that let me do quality fly at pace for race distance without practicing the piano.

BettyL
February 10th, 2017, 05:53 PM
Thanks! Fly/free combinations sounds a lot better than all fly!

ElaineK
February 14th, 2017, 04:49 PM
The standard USRPT set for 200s and up is 50s with 20 sec rest. Your goal time is 1/4 of your 200 goal time. If you miss the goal time you skip the next send off. If you miss it twice in a row, or three times total, the set is finished. I also like to do 100s with the goal time of the second 100 split of the 200. I give myself a lot of rest for those, enough to make the time, maybe 2x the swim time.

I'm in the same situation as Betty. Although 200's are my worst events, those are the ones I am competing in these days (for various reasons). I would like to improve all four of my 200's.

Let's say, for example, my goal for 200 breaststroke is to hit my 50's on :52. If I miss :52 on my next one, I would skip the next send-off. Does that mean I would wait :20 + :52 + :20 before I start again?

Other questions:
1. Once I miss three times total and the set is finished, do I rest and try doing another USRPT set with another stroke? If not, what type of sets would I do? Drills? Kicking?

2. I swim 6 days/week. How many days per week would you recommend I train USRPT sets for 200's to improve my times, but not physically break down my 55-year-old body?

Thanks!

Allen Stark
February 14th, 2017, 07:26 PM
I'm in the same situation as Betty. Although 200's are my worst events, those are the ones I am competing in these days (for various reasons). I would like to improve all four of my 200's.

Let's say, for example, my goal for 200 breaststroke is to hit my 50's on :52. If I miss :52 on my next one, I would skip the next send-off. Does that mean I would wait :20 + :52 + :20 before I start again?

Other questions:
1. Once I miss three times total and the set is finished, do I rest and try doing another USRPT set with another stroke? If not, what type of sets would I do? Drills? Kicking?

2. I swim 6 days/week. How many days per week would you recommend I train USRPT sets for 200's to improve my times, but not physically break down my 55-year-old body?

Thanks!

I am not an expert in USRPT, I just dabble in it. For more in depth check out http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?22783-Ultra-Short-Training-At-Race-Pace&highlight=USRPT or if you really want to get in depth http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/47GUIDE.pdf .
From what I know, yes, if you miss a goal time you would wait 20+52+20 for the next one. I usually do one USRPT set per workout, so once I get to failure I'd do something else,drills, long slow stuff etc. People who are committed to USRPT would probably do active recovery and then start another set. Since you are going to failure the sets are self limiting, so you could really do them every workout, except not if you feel unduly in pain. If you have unusual pain, wait until that is better to start again. One thing that has helped me in doing these sets lately, that I think might help you, is broadening my definition of "failure". Instead of just going by time, I am now going by stroke count and feel. If my goal is 50 BR in 39 with a 6 1/2 stroke count and I do it in 39 but with a 7 stroke count I count it as a failure, since my stroke is off somehow.This is my idea anyway.

cinc3100
February 14th, 2017, 07:48 PM
I'm in the same situation as Betty. Although 200's are my worst events, those are the ones I am competing in these days (for various reasons). I would like to improve all four of my 200's.

Let's say, for example, my goal for 200 breaststroke is to hit my 50's on :52. If I miss :52 on my next one, I would skip the next send-off. Does that mean I would wait :20 + :52 + :20 before I start again?

Other questions:
1. Once I miss three times total and the set is finished, do I rest and try doing another USRPT set with another stroke? If not, what type of sets would I do? Drills? Kicking?

2. I swim 6 days/week. How many days per week would you recommend I train USRPT sets for 200's to improve my times, but not physically break down my 55-year-old body?

Thanks!

Fast swimming, Elaine. I recently did a 54 in workouts in Breaststroke but it was resting for about 2 minutes and a slow 50 swim before doing it. I only recently did 51.21 in a race compared to doing 42 as a 45 year old. Now, I'm 59 and in 2 months 60. So, I think your goal is great.

cinc3100
February 14th, 2017, 07:49 PM
I am not an expert in USRPT, I just dabble in it. For more in depth check out http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?22783-Ultra-Short-Training-At-Race-Pace&highlight=USRPT or if you really want to get in depth http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/47GUIDE.pdf .
From what I know, yes, if you miss a goal time you would wait 20+52+20 for the next one. I usually do one USRPT set per workout, so once I get to failure I'd do something else,drills, long slow stuff etc. People who are committed to USRPT would probably do active recovery and then start another set. Since you are going to failure the sets are self limiting, so you could really do them every workout, except not if you feel unduly in pain. If you have unusual pain, wait until that is better to start again. One thing that has helped me in doing these sets lately, that I think might help you, is broadening my definition of "failure". Instead of just going by time, I am now going by stroke count and feel. If my goal is 50 BR in 39 with a 6 1/2 stroke count and I do it in 39 but with a 7 stroke count I count it as a failure, since my stroke is off somehow.This is my idea anyway.

39 or 40 seconds is similar to me between the ages of 14 to 19 where I swam breaststroke between 1:16 to 1:21 in 100 yards and 50 yards between 36 to 38 at the same ages.

Gary P
February 14th, 2017, 08:56 PM
The standard USRPT set for 200s and up is 50s with 20 sec rest. Your goal time is 1/4 of your 200 goal time. If you miss the goal time you skip the next send off. If you miss it twice in a row, or three times total, the set is finished. I also like to do 100s with the goal time of the second 100 split of the 200. I give myself a lot of rest for those, enough to make the time, maybe 2x the swim time.


I do USRPT, too, and, for the 200 free, have gone to using [(average of the last three 50 splits) - 0.50 seconds] for a 50 target time. The difference is only about 1/2 second, but that makes a huge difference the ability to complete a meaningful number of repetitions before failing out of the set. I would certainly recommend a similar strategy for the 200 fly. The first 50 in that race can really throw off the target time if you use the (200 time/4) method.


Unless your goal time is pretty close to your current time, it's probably too much of a stretch to train USRPT as your basis for target times. Not likely to get many successful reps. You gotta start where you are now, and work down.

m2tall2
February 14th, 2017, 09:30 PM
If you are looking for a lactate threshold set, the short rest intervals are exactly what you are looking for. These are NOT race pace sets. A lactate threshold speed is closer to 30 minutes race pace. When we do a threshold set for freestyle, it might look like 10x200 on 20s rest, or 18x100 on 10s rest. This is like at an effort of 6-7 out of 10. By the end of the set, you couldn't go any faster if you tried, but the starting effort is relatively easy. For me, this speed is useful for my freestyle as I will race the 1,000, 1650, and open water distances up to 10K. In theory, these type of sets train your body do clear lactate more efficiently. While some people might do sets like this to train for the 200 Free, I've never heard of anyone training a 200 Breast or Fly this way (perhaps this is where I'm going wrong. haha!)

My 200 Breaststroke, on the other hand, I try to get my aerobic work in other ways. I might do things like 75's on 10s rest as 25 breaststroke kick, 25 breaststroke drill, 25 breaststroke swim. This allows me to hold together a good breaststroke form but stay in either the aerobic or threshold zone depending on how hard I push it. Another set I might do to work the 200's in the aerobic/threshold zone is say 10x150's on 15 seconds rest, split as 100 free, 50 breast, trying to hold threshold pace on the free and maintain that feeling on the 50 breast. These sets will give you good conditioning but they won't give you that punch you need to hold on in the last 50 of a 200 stroke.

To do that, you'll need more race speed simulation. USRPT sets are designed to be race pace on short rest, this is an option. Those who adhere to USRPT do ONLY USRPT sets. However, I've always had sets like this mixed into my more traditional training. These sets definitely get the lactate monkey on your back but the beauty is when your body can't handle the pace anymore, you get a break. If you really put everything you've got into them and allow your body to fail, not your mind, you gain the ability to trust that you can still swim fast despite all the sensations you are feeling.
Personally, I will do sets like 4x50 AFAP on 10s rest once a week. I suspect if you can't hold onto the same pace you did for 4x50 on 8 sec rest in a race situation, it has more to do with the mental training than the physical training. The 8 seconds rest is enough rest to not get the full brunt of the monkey. That last 50 in a race is going to hurt like h e double hockey sticks. You just can't think about it or let it get to you. You can swim fast even though you feel like a lead brick. Train yourself to trust that.

ElaineK
February 15th, 2017, 03:25 PM
I am not an expert in USRPT, I just dabble in it. For more in depth check out http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?22783-Ultra-Short-Training-At-Race-Pace&highlight=USRPT or if you really want to get in depth http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/47GUIDE.pdf .
From what I know, yes, if you miss a goal time you would wait 20+52+20 for the next one. I usually do one USRPT set per workout, so once I get to failure I'd do something else,drills, long slow stuff etc. People who are committed to USRPT would probably do active recovery and then start another set. Since you are going to failure the sets are self limiting, so you could really do them every workout, except not if you feel unduly in pain. If you have unusual pain, wait until that is better to start again. One thing that has helped me in doing these sets lately, that I think might help you, is broadening my definition of "failure". Instead of just going by time, I am now going by stroke count and feel. If my goal is 50 BR in 39 with a 6 1/2 stroke count and I do it in 39 but with a 7 stroke count I count it as a failure, since my stroke is off somehow.This is my idea anyway.

This is excellent advice, King Frog, and I really appreciate it! Yes, I have followed that thread since the very first post, and I even muddled through the pdf when it was posted. :eek: I never put any of it to use, though, because I thought of it as more for sprinters rather than anything else. Although I used to be a sprinter, the high-intensity training beat the heck out of my body, and I have had to give it up. These days, due to my various physical issues, I find my body is better able to deal with NOT swimming anything at 100% all-out effort. In addition, my shoulders can no longer handle the repetitive stress of training distance free. 16x100 free sets used to be no big deal. Now I can't do them at all without repercussions.

I will last longer in this sport if stick with mixing it up and training the 400 IM and 200's. Repetitive fly at a slow pace doesn't bother my shoulders like freestyle does, so I tried your suggested set today. I was able to do 4x50's under goal, then 6x50's under goal, and then 2x50's before my stroke completely fell apart. Since I had three total failures, I stopped. I was happy with the total of 12x50's for 600 yards of fly, especially since I had already done 600 yards of freestyle USRPT right after my warm-up and before tackling this fly set. (The rest of the workout was spent on drills.)
This seems to be the best way for me to build up my fly endurance here on out. I give up too soon with any other type of sets! The :20 rest period works for me on this set, and I like the idea of sitting out on a send-off if I fail. The rest period gives me a chance to regroup and start fresh again, both mentally and physically! :agree:

King Frog, how many frog repeats can you usually do before your first failure? How many before you max out? What would you consider a good goal for me?

ElaineK
February 15th, 2017, 03:35 PM
Fast swimming, Elaine. I recently did a 54 in workouts in Breaststroke but it was resting for about 2 minutes and a slow 50 swim before doing it. I only recently did 51.21 in a race compared to doing 42 as a 45 year old. Now, I'm 59 and in 2 months 60. So, I think your goal is great.

Thanks, Cinc. I just aged up to 55, and I'm frustrated that I am slowing down faster than my peers. At 48 (my first year in USMS), I was able to make NQT's in the 50 breaststroke at :38.90. Now, I can no longer make NQT's. Having hip surgery two years ago didn't help, but I also can't train the yardage I used to be able to handle. In 2012, I hit 454 miles for the year. This past year, my goal was 325 and I hit 329.

I saw your other post about your high school times. If we had competed against each other back then, we would have been well-matched. My best time ever in the 100 breaststroke was 1:19.6. I mostly swam around 1:20-1:21.

ElaineK
February 15th, 2017, 03:40 PM
I do USRPT, too, and, for the 200 free, have gone to using [(average of the last three 50 splits) - 0.50 seconds] for a 50 target time. The difference is only about 1/2 second, but that makes a huge difference the ability to complete a meaningful number of repetitions before failing out of the set. I would certainly recommend a similar strategy for the 200 fly. The first 50 in that race can really throw off the target time if you use the (200 time/4) method.


Unless your goal time is pretty close to your current time, it's probably too much of a stretch to train USRPT as your basis for target times. Not likely to get many successful reps. You gotta start where you are now, and work down.

​GREAT ADVICE, Gary! Thanks!!

Allen Stark
February 15th, 2017, 04:30 PM
I hear many people get to 12 before first failure. I am happy with 8, 6 if i am not feeling tip top.

ElaineK
February 15th, 2017, 05:01 PM
I hear many people get to 12 before first failure. I am happy with 8, 6 if i am not feeling tip top.

Thanks! That gives me a good idea on what to shoot for with my sets.

Allen Stark
February 15th, 2017, 07:22 PM
Remember, if you get 4, that is the same as a broken 200, so that is not a bad goal to start.

ElaineK
February 16th, 2017, 05:45 PM
Remember, if you get 4, that is the same as a broken 200, so that is not a bad goal to start.

Great- thanks! So far, what I am liking about these sets is my ability to get more quality stroke yardage in than with the sets I was doing previously. It's a great feeling after a failure to rest up and start fresh again. I'm finding that my frog legs (especially my right hip where I had surgery) are able to hang in much better on breaststroke, and my shoulders do fine with the fly.

cinc3100
February 17th, 2017, 11:14 PM
Thanks, Cinc. I just aged up to 55, and I'm frustrated that I am slowing down faster than my peers. At 48 (my first year in USMS), I was able to make NQT's in the 50 breaststroke at :38.90. Now, I can no longer make NQT's. Having hip surgery two years ago didn't help, but I also can't train the yardage I used to be able to handle. In 2012, I hit 454 miles for the year. This past year, my goal was 325 and I hit 329.

I saw your other post about your high school times. If we had competed against each other back then, we would have been well-matched. My best time ever in the 100 breaststroke was 1:19.6. I mostly swam around 1:20-1:21.

Yes, I slowdown a lot since I stop swimming for years. I took it up around 1999 for 2 days of lap swimming and decided to do a few meets in 2,002 to 2004 with more practice. I got two NT's in 50 meter and 100 meter Breaststroke at 46 and 1:43 when I about 46 years old. Swam the next year and complete 50 yard fly at 40.21 since that time is still in the data based and had a bad cough/ some bronchitis wand couldn't breath in the 200 yard breastroke and only swim 150 yards and of course was DQ. Continue some lap swimming until 2006 and pretty much dropped out of swimming again and came back in may of last year with very light workouts and more heavier ones by late July but most of the yardage is between 4.100 to 8,200 yards a week. I weight a lot more than high school even though the swimming has helped losing some of that and breasts are much bigger than high school.

MartinK
February 18th, 2017, 02:40 AM
I would say the best war to get faster at 200m is swimming long and easy many Intervalls of 200m, 300m and even 400m..and than I would mix it a little bit with some faster 100m intervalls to get some speed for the stroke... I am not a fan of the USRPT and I really have strong doubt doing this is good for a Mastersswimmer.

BettyL
February 18th, 2017, 08:24 AM
Has any body seen and tried this?
http://www.yourswimlog.com/butterfly-sets/
first set is basically 10 rounds of swim, drill, kick by 50 on an interval you know you can make
second set is setting your pace at an easy interval over 4 reps, then do 6 more reps each one at descending intervals (10 sec per descend)
I don't think I would attempt max velocity but will attempt mod-hard effort if using this set for a 200, of course with completely different intervals, like starting with 2:00 for 50scy
For me, I would do 25s to train for a 100
My goal is always to get it to feel no more than moderate/hard but still be fast- the so called easy fast. That's because I'm losing my mental toughness and finding it really hard to make myself gut things out like I used to. So I do a lot of drills and 25s watching the clock, but monitoring feel for sustainability. I'm trying to increase efficiency but the time spent on this type of work does take away from my interval training and is probably deconditioning.
I'm looking for that magic formula that will enable me to complete a 200 at a meet without having to do a lot of full 200s in practice because the latter is really mentally challenging.
I should add, a few years ago I did a lot of 200s in my solo practices, but now I focus too much on how much they hurt, so I mainly only do them at meets. No choice but to finish them there or get DQd so I keep going. But I am getting slower. Not aggressive enough maybe. I used to go out agressively and try to hang on with adrenaline. Now I'm not willing to do that. I turned myself into too much of a head case for that.
anybody relate?

sickfish
February 18th, 2017, 08:42 AM
Yeah, I think some guy named Phelps tried them. As I recall he had a decent 200 fly. I've done the first a bunch, I think it's good for my 100 fly.

I've also read that Phelps didn't do a lot of full 200s fly in practice either. I very much disagree with the poster who said to swim easy 2-,3-, and 400s. That will train you to swim slow. I think you're on the right track: break it up into chunks where you can go fast, so you know what it feels like to go fast. And do the full one once in a while.

You can train that mental toughness back, too. Just start with shorter distances: "I am going to swim this 25 at 110%" then you can do 25 with a turn, then 25 with two strokes after the breakout, etc.

ElaineK
February 20th, 2017, 01:05 PM
Remember, if you get 4, that is the same as a broken 200, so that is not a bad goal to start.

King Frog, I have a question about this set for my 200 breaststroke. You had mentioned how you go by your stroke count as well, and I completely agree. I am obsessive about stroke count, so I am doing my USRPT sets the same way.

Today, after I did a practice 400 IM race, I did a USRPT breaststroke set with the goal of maxing at 8 strokes (per 25 yards). Instead of my previous goal of :52's (which I know I can't hold repeatedly at 8 strokes per 25), I thought I would see what would happen at :53's. I was able to do 11x50 at 8 strokes; the fifth and seventh ones were at :52. After my failure, I did another six 50's all at :53, 8 strokes. (The first one was 7 strokes down, and 8 back).

I was now up to 17x50's, and I had never done that much breaststroke in one work out since my hip surgery. Since that hip started to feel a little fatigued, I decided to stop to avoid injury. Other than my hip, I felt great, and I knew I could have kept going.

Now, for my question: As hard as I tried, I couldn't hit more than a couple of those 50's at :52 going 8 strokes each way. I have really worked on my technique, and I think I have maxed out my abilities in that regard. Should I keep trying to go after 52's holding 8 strokes, or should I reset my goal at maintaining 52's and quicken my turnover to 9 strokes? The last time I raced 200 breaststroke, I swam 3:35, and it has been awhile since I have broken 3:30. (But, I wasn't training for the 200 breaststroke, either.) I really would like to get back in the 3:20's.

On a side note, the best I have ever been able to do with my stroke count using my improved technique is swim a 50 breaststroke at :53, 6 strokes each way. It nearly busted my lungs and muscles, though! I can also hit a :54 going 5 strokes down; however, it's 6 strokes back. Repeats of that? Fuhgetaboutit! :eek:

Allen Stark
February 20th, 2017, 04:41 PM
Do a set of 9 strokes one day and a set of 8 another day and see which feels better and more sustainable for a 200. Play with it.

MartinK
February 21st, 2017, 11:57 AM
Why is everbody here so obsessed with this USRPT stuff..don't get it.

ElaineK
February 21st, 2017, 05:07 PM
Do a set of 9 strokes one day and a set of 8 another day and see which feels better and more sustainable for a 200. Play with it.

Good advice; will do. :agree:

On fly, I can't believe what I have been able to do in just a couple of tries doing your recommended USRPT set (for 200 fly)! I decided to set my goal time at 1:00 :cane:, because I hadn't broken 4:00 on 200 fly since a year ago. (Now, in all honesty, I had also only put in a few hundred yards of fly in each workout, and I haven't tried to increase my speed.) Still, in my first USRPT fly set, I was able to swim 650 yards of fly following a practice 200 race (4:10). Today, I was able to hit 11x50's ranging from :56-:59, before I thought I should give my shoulders a break and sit out a send-off. I then did 5x50's at :57-:58 before another self-imposed sit out. Finally, I did 4 more at :55-:58. I ended up doing a full 20x50's of fly at 1:15 with just those two breaks. The first ones were the hardest, and I felt better later in the set. Yeah, it was very slow swimming, but I haven't done 1,000 yards of fly since my last Butternut challenge a few years ago.

Before attempting these sets just last week, I would only do 4x50 fly sets before moving on to do the same for the other three strokes. I realize that never pushing past 4x50's at any one time was doing me no favors. USRPT sets give me the opportunity to regroup after sitting out a send-off, and start fresh again. After my second sit-out, I had my fastest time at :55, after having already swum 16x50's!

Since I never had a "failure" and completed 20x50 of fly with most being under my goal, I now have the confidence to drop my goal to :59. Next, I'll drop it to :58, and so on. For me, having a good, solid foundation of fly endurance will make it easier to drop speed. (Of course, with my style of fly where my arms are diving down on recovery, I will never be fast; but, I am unable to sustain swimming fly with keeping my arms close to the surface.)

Anyway, if nothing else, I am gaining confidence and stamina with these sets! :banana: Thanks, King Frog, for your inspiration and advice. I always look to the king of the pond to show me the way!



Why is everbody here so obsessed with this USRPT stuff..don't get it.

See above.

cinc3100
February 21st, 2017, 06:54 PM
Good advice; will do. :agree:

On fly, I can't believe what I have been able to do in just a couple of tries doing your recommended USRPT set (for 200 fly)! I decided to set my goal time at 1:00 :cane:, because I hadn't broken 4:00 on 200 fly since a year ago. (Now, in all honesty, I had also only put in a few hundred yards of fly in each workout, and I haven't tried to increase my speed.) Still, in my first USRPT fly set, I was able to swim 650 yards of fly following a practice 200 race (4:10). Today, I was able to hit 11x50's ranging from :56-:59, before I thought I should give my shoulders a break and sit out a send-off. I then did 5x50's at :57-:58 before another self-imposed sit out. Finally, I did 4 more at :55-:58. I ended up doing a full 20x50's of fly at 1:15 with just those two breaks. The first ones were the hardest, and I felt better later in the set. Yeah, it was very slow swimming, but I haven't done 1,000 yards of fly since my last Butternut challenge a few years ago.

Before attempting these sets just last week, I would only do 4x50 fly sets before moving on to do the same for the other three strokes. I realize that never pushing past 4x50's at any one time was doing me no favors. USRPT sets give me the opportunity to regroup after sitting out a send-off, and start fresh again. After my second sit-out, I had my fastest time at :55, after having already swum 16x50's!

Since I never had a "failure" and completed 20x50 of fly with most being under my goal, I now have the confidence to drop my goal to :59. Next, I'll drop it to :58, and so on. For me, having a good, solid foundation of fly endurance will make it easier to drop speed. (Of course, with my style of fly where my arms are diving down on recovery, I will never be fast; but, I am unable to sustain swimming fly with keeping my arms close to the surface.)

Anyway, if nothing else, I am gaining confidence and stamina with these sets! :banana: Thanks, King Frog, for your inspiration and advice. I always look to the king of the pond to show me the way!




See above.
Good for you Elaine, I don't go under 1:00 that much in fly in practice a couple of time trials with rest at 64. I did near 1:00 in it and breaststroke today and around 1:05 in backstroke. Backstroke I have a terrible flip turn and usually do open turns. The only stroke I can go 55 and lower at in practice in a set is freestyle.

cinc3100
February 21st, 2017, 06:56 PM
Good for you Elaine, I don't go under 1:00 that much in fly in practice a couple of time trials with rest at 64. I did near 1:00 in it and breaststroke today and around 1:05 in backstroke. Backstroke I have a terrible flip turn and usually do open turns. The only stroke I can go 55 and lower at in practice in a set is freestyle.

I can do intervals usually of 1:30 or 2;00 better than 1'15 which is easier if I do freestyle.

Allen Stark
February 21st, 2017, 07:18 PM
Why is everbody here so obsessed with this USRPT stuff..don't get it.

It is kind of the new toy. Some people have had remarkable results with it. I like aspects of it and there are things I don't like. I don't do only USRPT sets ,but my other sets are still race pace,but with longer distance, longer rest. I think that due to the self limiting nature of USRPT these sets can be introduced relatively early in a training cycle without harm. i wouldn't jump into HIT sets early in the season, but some USRPT seems OK. I think that if one is going to optimize competitive performance there needs to be a significant part of the work,especially late season,pre-taper at race pace.The only way to swim fast is to swim fast.

Allen Stark
February 21st, 2017, 07:34 PM
Good for you Elaine, I don't go under 1:00 that much in fly in practice a couple of time trials with rest at 64. I did near 1:00 in it and breaststroke today and around 1:05 in backstroke. Backstroke I have a terrible flip turn and usually do open turns. The only stroke I can go 55 and lower at in practice in a set is freestyle.

Amazing,great job.

ElaineK
February 26th, 2017, 09:07 AM
Do a set of 9 strokes one day and a set of 8 another day and see which feels better and more sustainable for a 200. Play with it.

I was able to hit 10x50's at either :51 or :52 (my goal) at 9 strokes before failure, so I will definitely stick with that goal. It's worth the extra stroke each 25 to get my time down.

Allen Stark
February 26th, 2017, 11:16 AM
I was able to hit 10x50's at either :51 or :52 (my goal) at 9 strokes before failure, so I will definitely stick with that goal. It's worth the extra stroke each 25 to get my time down.

That seems pretty conclusive. It is also pretty impressive since you just started that way of training. Does it feel comfortable?

ElaineK
February 26th, 2017, 01:08 PM
That seems pretty conclusive. It is also pretty impressive since you just started that way of training. Does it feel comfortable?

Yes, it does. I attribute it to a couple of reasons. First, I taught myself "power yoga" just over a year ago and do it after every swim session (6-days/week), in addition to my usual physical therapy exercises using a Theraband. I also do planks (I'm up to holding it for 1:30, but think I could go longer with shoes on rather than in bare feet), crunches, etc. In all, I spend about 45 minutes on deck doing it after my swim workout. As a result, I have developed more strength and endurance to be able to withstand the repetitiveness of USRPT workouts.

Second, I did a trade-out with teammate Mark Beatty, a Top Ten (45-49) swimmer and swim instructor. In exchange for shooting video of his strokes, he coached me on breaststroke. By the end of one session, he had me swimming a 50-yard breaststroke with a short 6 strokes down, and 6 strokes back at :53. (Prior to that session, it would take 9 strokes each way at the same speed.)

My stroke count was always too high, so he helped me with my streamline, pullout, and body position on the stroke. (He tried to get me to keep my head from popping up too soon to breathe, and I did make some improvements; however, I find it difficult to sustain. :dunno: )

Since our late-October session, I have spent most of my breaststroke yardage (which wasn't much due to being concerned about my hip) just trying to work on my stroke and stroke count. I didn't worry about my breaststroke speed at all, so my 50 has really suffered!

Now, I'm trying to put it all together, and I'm finding that USRPT is the best way to do it. My body is adapting well to the repetition within a set, and the 20 seconds of rest for 50's gives me enough time to think about what I need to do for the next 50. When I have a failure, I don't look at it negatively. Instead, I think of it as my body's way of telling me it's time to rest and regroup. When I start again, my first 50 after the rest period is always fast and feels great! :banana: For me, that's positive reinforcement the rest was needed and worthwhile.

One decision I made about USRPT that I will stick by is this: I won't do more than one set of it per stroke in a day, and won't repeat the same stroke the following day as a USRPT set. This is to help prevent repetitive stress injuries, something I am very prone to experiencing. What seems to work is following my warm-up with USRPT fly, and then moving on to freestyle. On the following day, I substitute fly with breaststroke, and then move on to a set of backstroke. Breaking up the long access strokes to separate days is important for me!

I'm finding that I fail much sooner on the second set which is to be expected; however, breaststroke and fly are my priorities, so I don't mind giving the other two strokes the backseat.

I'm going to stick with this as long as it works. I fill in the rest of my workout with drills and kick sets, and by Saturday (my 6th day in a row), I do a body check to see what I can take. Yesterday, it was a very short session of USRPT before I designated the remainder of my shortened session "Play time!" Play time consists of fooling around with underwater SDK's with fins, doing favorite drills, trying to float :lmao: (which I don't do very well) without laughing at myself, doing a couple of handstands, and :blah: with whoever is around and in a sociable mood. After that, I hit the deck for yoga and stretching, use my foam roller, and :bolt:

orca1946
February 26th, 2017, 02:08 PM
I wish we had 20 secs. rest !!1 We usually do 50's with 10 secs. I will try the 20 x 50 sets this week after I show our coach this set list. Today we did 80 x 25 broken into sets of 10 starting at 1:05 and lowering each next 3 x 10 by 5 secs. any stroke that you wanted to do.
Had lots of time to start and then it worked into a good speed set.

sunruh
February 26th, 2017, 03:38 PM
here is a small set you can do

6 x 100 scy on 1:05

or here is another

4 x 200 lcm on 2:30

Gary P
February 27th, 2017, 07:04 AM
I wish we had 20 secs. rest !!1 We usually do 50's with 10 secs.

The difference is the speed, though. At 200 race pace, most people probably can't do more than 5 or 6 50's on 10 seconds rest.

ElaineK
February 27th, 2017, 11:29 AM
50's at :20 USRPT sets are definitely working to build endurance for my fly.

My first time trying it on 2/15 with a goal of 1:00:
58,57,57,1:02/ 56,58,58,1:00,59,1:01/59,1:01 = 12

My 5th time was today with a goal of :59:
57,55,55,55,55,56,,55,55,56,57,57,56,57,57 (14) /55,57,58,58,58,58 = 20
I didn't fail at my 14th; I was interrupted by the pool cleaning guy and missed my send-off.

Gary P
February 27th, 2017, 04:22 PM
50's at :20 USRPT sets are definitely working to build endurance for my fly.

My first time trying it on 2/15 with a goal of 1:00:
58,57,57,1:02/ 56,58,58,1:00,59,1:01/59,1:01 = 12

My 5th time was today with a goal of :59:
57,55,55,55,55,56,,55,55,56,57,57,56,57,57 (14) /55,57,58,58,58,58 = 20
I didn't fail at my 14th; I was interrupted by the pool cleaning guy and missed my send-off.

Awesome! Are you swimming the 200 fly in a meet anytime soon? I would expect you to be able to somewhere around 3:50 based on that last set....probably a 54.something on the first 50, and average somewhere in the 58's on the last 3.

ElaineK
February 27th, 2017, 04:27 PM
Awesome! Are you swimming the 200 fly in a meet anytime soon? I would expect you to be able to somewhere around 3:50 based on that last set....probably a 54.something on the first 50, and average somewhere in the 58's on the last 3.

Thanks!! I'm swimming in the Sewannee, Tennessee meet on Saturday and doing the "800 IM Challenge" (200's of each stroke). I'm also throwing in the 400 IM for my own "ironman pentathlon" and the 50 breaststroke for my last event. I haven't broken 4:00 in the 200 fly since March, 2014, and my PR is 3:52 from back in 2012. Even though I'm 55 now and slowing waaay down, I'm swimming more fly yardage per week than ever before. I'm hoping these sets will pay off with an all-time 200 fly PR this year.

Gary P
February 27th, 2017, 06:48 PM
Thanks!! I'm swimming in the Sewannee, Tennessee meet on Saturday and doing the "800 IM Challenge" (200's of each stroke). I'm also throwing in the 400 IM for my own "ironman pentathlon" and the 50 breaststroke for my last event. I haven't broken 4:00 in the 200 fly since March, 2014, and my PR is 3:52 from back in 2012. Even though I'm 55 now and slowing waaay down, I'm swimming more fly yardage per week than ever before. I'm hoping these sets will pay off with an all-time 200 fly PR this year.

Best of luck to you. I'm rooting for you to get that PR this year.

The one thing I see in that last set is how you banged out a lot of 55's/56's early. The good news is that it shows you have speed, but it's not good for helping you lock in your pacing.

It looks to me like you're ready to target :58 on your next practice, but you should try to be :57's every time, even if it means you have to hold back a little on the first 8-10. " Early throttle control" is a critical element of a 200 fly race, especially for us mortals. Practice it in the early parts of this set.

ElaineK
February 27th, 2017, 10:36 PM
Best of luck to you. I'm rooting for you to get that PR this year.

The one thing I see in that last set is how you banged out a lot of 55's/56's early. The good news is that it shows you have speed, but it's not good for helping you lock in your pacing.

It looks to me like you're ready to target :58 on your next practice, but you should try to be :57's every time, even if it means you have to hold back a little on the first 8-10. " Early throttle control" is a critical element of a 200 fly race, especially for us mortals. Practice it in the early parts of this set.

Thanks, Gary, I appreciate it! I agree on the :58 for next time, and the need to better pace my 50's. I will keep it in mind next time out! Thanks!!

Dan Kornblatt
February 28th, 2017, 06:18 AM
I think the most important thing is to mix it up. When the USRPT craze kicked up I saw some interviews with coaches and the answer I liked best was "it's just one bullet in the gun". Meaning he used USRPT but just not all the time. High quality swims with lots of rest; long distance swims; repeats like 16X100 on a modest interval along with USRPT will not only work better but will lead to less boredom. Along with pulling, kicking and drills it's not hard to fill out a 3000 yd workout on your own. I think fly is a special area of concern due to the potential of injury. As many have pointed out when the form breaks down in fly switch to free or I like one arm fly to keep the dolphin motion still going. We are Masters in it for life any one type of training regime will shortly take the fun out of it.

ElaineK
February 28th, 2017, 12:55 PM
I think the most important thing is to mix it up. When the USRPT craze kicked up I saw some interviews with coaches and the answer I liked best was "it's just one bullet in the gun". Meaning he used USRPT but just not all the time. High quality swims with lots of rest; long distance swims; repeats like 16X100 on a modest interval along with USRPT will not only work better but will lead to less boredom. Along with pulling, kicking and drills it's not hard to fill out a 3000 yd workout on your own. I think fly is a special area of concern due to the potential of injury. As many have pointed out when the form breaks down in fly switch to free or I like one arm fly to keep the dolphin motion still going. We are Masters in it for life any one type of training regime will shortly take the fun out of it.

I definitely agree. In any time of training, I use two criteria for deciding what type of training I am going to do after I finish my warm-up:
1. Am I physically up to doing (whatever set I thought I wanted to do)?
2. Do I look forward to doing it? (Am I motivated to do it?)

Sometimes, all it takes is a day of two of mixing it up, and then I'm ready to get right back to it. Right now, I am thoroughly enjoying the challenge of USRPT. I have a meet coming up on Saturday, and then another at the end of March; so, I plan on a couple of mini drop-tapers before each meet to make sure I am well-rested.

fatboy
February 28th, 2017, 01:01 PM
" Early throttle control" is a critical element of a 200 fly race, especially for us mortals. .

Well put. This is great advice!

ElaineK
February 28th, 2017, 01:02 PM
That seems pretty conclusive. It is also pretty impressive since you just started that way of training. Does it feel comfortable?

Interval question: After yesterday's USRPT set of 20x50 fly, I was able to complete my breaststroke set today holding 52's at 9 strokes/25 yards on 1:15. I didn't fail until #15, and then I completed the next five without failure. Should I drop my goal to :51 on 1:15 or stay at :52 but change the interval to 1:10? Forget the idea of my rest interval being EXACTLY :20, because it's too difficult for my pea-sized brain to calculate my swim time AND rest period that quickly using my digital watch (instead of the visual help of a clock). :dunno:

Gary P
February 28th, 2017, 02:11 PM
Interval question: After yesterday's USRPT set of 20x50 fly, I was able to complete my breaststroke set today holding 52's at 9 strokes/25 yards on 1:15. I didn't fail until #15, and then I completed the next five without failure. Should I drop my goal to :51 on 1:15 or stay at :52 but change the interval to 1:10? Forget the idea of my rest interval being EXACTLY :20, because it's too difficult for my pea-sized brain to calculate my swim time AND rest period that quickly using my digital watch (instead of the visual help of a clock). :dunno:

You really could go either way, but :52 on a 1:10 would be "by the book." FWIW, I use an Ironman watch with a programmable interval timer that counts down so I can always have a 20 second rest interval.

Speaking of "by the book," you shouldn't necessarily stop at 20x50 for 200's training. The specified offering for that race distance is 30x50. You don't have to get to 30 to advance the pace, though. 16 consecutive or 22 total made repetitions, two workouts in a row, is enough to move on to a faster pace, although you don't stop an individual set until you hit 30 or fail out. Might be a bit much for us older Masters swimmers doing fly, but I think it's reasonable for the other strokes.

ElaineK
February 28th, 2017, 03:01 PM
You really could go either way, but :52 on a 1:10 would be "by the book." FWIW, I use an Ironman watch with a programmable interval timer that counts down so I can always have a 20 second rest interval.

Speaking of "by the book," you shouldn't necessarily stop at 20x50 for 200's training. The specified offering for that race distance is 30x50. You don't have to get to 30 to advance the pace, though. 16 consecutive or 22 total made repetitions, two workouts in a row, is enough to move on to a faster pace, although you don't stop an individual set until you hit 30 or fail out. Might be a bit much for us older Masters swimmers doing fly, but I think it's reasonable for the other strokes.

Thanks for the info., Gary. I thought the total was 20x50. I think I'll stick with 20, because any more than that of ANY stroke is a bit much for THIS older Master swimmer! :cane:

Gary P
February 28th, 2017, 08:17 PM
Thanks for the info., Gary. I thought the total was 20x50. I think I'll stick with 20, because any more than that of ANY stroke is a bit much for THIS older Master swimmer! :cane:

20 is still 5 x race distance, at race pace. That's GOTTA help, dontcha' think?

ElaineK
February 28th, 2017, 08:43 PM
20 is still 5 x race distance, at race pace. That's GOTTA help, dontcha' think?

:agree: It's more breaststroke OR fly yardage than I have ever done in a single workout! The repetition has to pay off, I would think. :chug:

cinc3100
February 28th, 2017, 09:55 PM
:agree: It's more breaststroke OR fly yardage than I have ever done in a single workout! The repetition has to pay off, I would think. :chug:

Gee a lot of fun, doing all that breast and fly. I did 4 two hundreds in a workout. 2 Im's, 1 breaststroke, 1 freestyle.

sunruh
March 3rd, 2017, 09:20 AM
here is another small set

5x100scm on 1:10

cinc3100
April 4th, 2017, 12:27 AM
Gee a lot of fun, doing all that breast and fly. I did 4 two hundreds in a workout. 2 Im's, 1 breaststroke, 1 freestyle.
Well, I did 4 50's of free, fly and breast and 2 of back on a 25 second interval with slower swimming after each 4 sets or the 2 sets. I think I Iwill do this by reducing yardage and trying to get closer to a good pace. I think the last butterfly and breaststroke was 1:01 and the freestyle 53 and the backstroke 1:04. I don't do the failure rates of USPT but modify it for my age.

ElaineK
April 4th, 2017, 04:55 PM
King Frog:

I've been working diligently on my USRPT sets, thanks to your inspiration. I've also held to my 9 strokes per 25 stroke goal, and absolutely will NOT allow myself to swim 10 strokes. If I have to coast in for a fail, I do. Today, I coasted in on several, but still hit :51 or :52s! I also had a first today: My first time doing 20 x 50's of breaststroke on 1:15 without a fail. Eight of them were :51, and the rest were :52. (Of course, it helped that the heater was down due to yesterday's lightning strike-- great for me at 80 degrees :banana:, and :badday: for the noodlers.)

Next time out, I'll try 1:10 for my interval and see how it goes...