4 x 100 Free relay - Michael Phelps

[Dennis Tesch]

What does everyone think about Gary Hall's comments about Michael Phelps being on the 4 x 100 freestyle relay at the Olympics. Gary pretty much feels that Michael shouldn't be on the relay since he didn't swim the 100 at the Olympic trials. Michael is being considered for the relay, since he has posted the second fastest time by an American this year.

I personally think Michael should be on the relay if he is setting the water a fire at the Olympics. I think any true team member would give up their spot on a relay to someone who is faster. It is about the best possible relay team - GO USA!!!!

[Fishgrrl]

I agree with Gary. I think he should have swam the 100 free at trials if he wanted to be on the relay.

[aquageek]

Does a swimmer have to participate in the trials to make the relay event?

Ask the Australians for a rules interpretation.

[Dennis Tesch]

Just FYI... here is the section from the meet handbook at the Olympic Trails about relay selection...

III. DISCRETIONARY SELECTION
Discretionary selection will not be used for any swimmers
in individual Olympic events from the Olympic
Trials.
However, all swimmers who are nominated to the Team
as submitted to the USOC on or about July 15, 2004 shall
be eligible for selection to any and all relays to be held at
the Games. The Head Coach, in consultation with the
assistant coaches and National Team Director, shall
select the swimmers for each relay conducted at the
Games. In selecting the relay teams, the Head Coach, in
consultation with the assistant coaches and National
Team Director, shall consider all available information,
including but not limited to each Team Member’s Olympic
Trials performances (including preliminary times, time trials,
and relay lead-off times), past relay performances,
Olympic Games performances, personal best performances,
Games event schedules, individual workload,
other recent results and performances, consistency of
performances, health, fitness levels, training preparation,
scientific evaluation, and team chemistry. Selection of
swimmers for relays shall not be subject to challenge.

[Howard]

The rules specifically say the coaches can put anyone on the Olympic team roster on any relay. It's published and out there for anyone to read. Gary can have his opinion and I'm sure the coaches will give it the respect it deserves.

[Fishgrrl]

Then that settles it. Why are we even having this discussion (unless it's to "discuss" Gary's opinion)?

[aquageek]

It appears the relay team of me, gull80, laineybug and mark from md missed the deadline for consideration. What's the appeal process?

[Howard]

Sue for not being allowed to compete in the trials on the grounds of being speed impaired.

[gull]

Originally posted by aquageek
It appears the relay team of me, gull80, laineybug and mark from md missed the deadline for consideration. What's the appeal process?

I assume you would wear the new Speedo clown suit?

[Tom Ellison]

We are having this discussion because we can….Discussion and dialog are a healthy form of expression.

Gary has a right to say and think anything he wants as long as he does not threaten anyone. I believe they call that “free speech.” I believe the basic meaning or definition of TEAM is in keeping with the Olympic Regulations as stated above regarding who swims and who does not swim on relays at the Olympic Games. Everyone knows the rules or should have known the rules while swimming at trials. In short, whatever the coaches and staff believe is in the best interest of the TEAM, then that is what is going to happen. If you do not like the rules then work from within to change the rules, but NOT going into the Olympic Games.

It is not a democracy…..

[tjburk]

If Phelps has a better time then someone else on the relay, he should swim. Hell let's have a swim off so Phelps can beat Hall like Lezak and Crocker did and relegate him even further down the line! :D

[Fishgrrl]

No need to get your panties in a bunch... if the rules are the rules, and Gary knows the rules (or maybe he doesn't - but I bet he does), then why make such a statement in the first place?

Here's my opinion (since we're discussing this just because we can) - perhaps Gary is upset because although the rules are very clear, such a thing hasn't been done before (or maybe in his lifetime)....? Just a guess. And you're right - he certainly is entitled to his opinion.

I really thought that someone wanting to swim on a relay had to swim that particular event/distance in the trials. But now I've seen the light and let's shout out a great big "AMEN" to that!

:--)

[swimpastor]

Gull 80 said,

"I assume you would wear the new Speedo clown suit?"

I'd be happy to lend one of them my "spidey" suit.

Joe

[Howard]

It has happened recently. I think Jenny T was put on the 800 free relay in either Sydney of the games before.

I'm sure Gary knows all this. He's simply making his opinion known. The coaches will put the fastest relay on the blocks and Gary will support it. He doesn't want to lose the relay again which doesn't explain why he does a track start.

[Fishgrrl]

Then that makes a lot more sense. Did he make a public statement to the press about his opinion or was this just something someone heard him say in the locker room?

Nevertheless it's now made headlines if we know about it.

[Guvnah]

I think Gary Hall is concerned because he wasn't one of the top-two at the trials. If Phelps gets a slot on the relay, it will be at the expense of someone who was not in the top two.

I doubt Hall is at risk, but it still has to concern him a little.

[aquageek]

All you people and your big worries. Let's focus on if I'll need to shave while wearing my clown suit in the Olympics.

[Tom Ellison]

Mr. Moose wants to see you in the Clown suit....and....so does Ralph....

[Dennis Tesch]

Actually, I think Phelps could make the relay in clown/spidy suit. It would be more fun than the boxing outfits Hall wears.

[knelson]

I imagine the same kind of thing could happen with Coughlin in the 800 free relay. There's not much question she's one of the top four U.S. women in the 200 free, yet she didn't swim the event at Trials. In fact her time at the JEI was almost a second faster than the winning time at Trials.

[Matt S]

People, people, people...

You are underestimating both the cunning and the altruism of Gary Hall. In addition to being one of the great sprinters of all time and performing at a world class level in one of the longest careers of all time, Gary Hall is also showing himself to be one of the most media-savy, budding impressarios for the sport of swimming in the past few years. He's been in the sport for years. He knows the rules, and he understands that it is all about fielding the fastest relay team possible, period, at the Olympic Games. Also, being so media savvy, he has to understand that lobbying in public for his spot has got to be the LEAST LIKELY means for acheiving that end, just look at Carl Lewis.

So, the question remains, why would he say Michael Phelps does not deserve a spot on the relay? We also know Gary is all about generating publicity and media attention for swimming. NBC is obligingly running a "Can Phelps one-up Spitz" campaign, but geez, how many times in the coming weeks can you disect that question without running out of material. OK, suppose one of the grand old veterans of the sport, and self-appointed loud-mouth, were to cork-off with a ridiculous statement about Michael doesn't belong on the relay because he did not swim it at Trials. Do you think swimming might be able to play the ole' Howard Cosell "CONTROVERSY!!" card for a few more interesting stories. The angles are endless. Just imagine the irony of one of the great rebels of the sport at the backend of the career criticizing one of the bright young guns because he doesn't want to play by the Olympic Trial rules.

Gary Hall is one of the most clever, imaginative people in the sport today, and the only pity in the Phelps on the relay remarks is that they did not generate MORE barstool debates. All we swimmers and swimming fans would have been the clear winners, and Gary Hall would have sacrificed a bit of his public image for our benefit.

Matt

P.S. I'm baa....ack!

[Sam Perry]

Gary has a right to an opinion (if that is really his opinion) but in this case if it is, he is wrong. I think this is just a publicity deal with Gary.

The "rivalry" with Lezak and "war of words" their agents had generated a lot of publicity that NBC did and will continue to capitalize on. (Wait until Athens and the Popov "rivalry")

He has to know full well and good that Phelps will and should be on the relay. My humble prediction for finals:

Lezak
Phelps
Hall
Crocker

In that order. World record and gold medal upset of the Aussies.

If you feel sorry for the alternates not getting to swim at night even though they swam at trails, check out some of Josh Davis' quotes regarding the pride he had swimming on relays in the morning and the contributions all of our relay swimmers make regardless when they swim.

[seltzer]

You are underestimating both the cunning and the altruism of Gary Hall. ..
Gary Hall is one of the most clever, imaginative people in the sport today, and the only pity in the Phelps on the relay remarks is that they did not generate MORE barstool debates.


Contrast Hall's attitude with that of Neil Walker ("it's not a question of fair it's a question of fast"). Hall's antics are good for the sport but don't overestimate his smarts. In several interviews, Hall proved that he's not the most honest/smart person (Melissa Starke's question about rivalry with Lezak after spending all week denigrating Lezak as a big swimmer he denied any rivalry) and his "stupid" comments about the relay.

Hall is good for sport but le't face it..he's got a big mouth and talks before he thinks.

Re relay...there is a long, long history of selecting relay swimmers that DID NOT swim the 100 at trials.

[Guvnah]

The following comment comes from a typical article about the 4x100 relay:

"the winning South Africans said Phelps’ presence in the race made their job easier. But don’t take that to mean the U.S. would have won if Hall had competed. The South Africans weren’t going to be beaten by anyone. America might have taken silver, but not gold."

Everyone is focusing on Phelps replacing Hall.

But had Ian Crocker been replaced by Gary Hall, Hall would have done better than a 50.05. Had he done a 48.59, USA would have beaten the field. (We finished 1.45 behind South Africa. Hall did a 48.73 on the anchor in the prelims, so maybe he couldn't have done 48.59 leading off...)

[Sam Perry]

The way Hall acted last night was classless. I am sorry I defended him earlier on this thread. Phelps was not the reason for bronze. South Africa wasn't going to lose and 46+ from Hogie, 'nuff said...

[seltzer]

[
But had Ian Crocker been replaced by Gary Hall, Hall would have done better than a 50.05. Had he done a 48.59, USA would have beaten the field. (We finished 1.45 behind South Africa. Hall did a 48.73 on the anchor in the prelims, so maybe he couldn't have done 48.59 leading off...)

Hall was not going to swim a 48.59 leading off the relay. He hasn't gone anywhere near that fast in four years and in fact don't think he ever went faster than 48 high. That 48.73 is equivalent to a 49.4 with a flat start.

If everyone on the US team did a personal best then they would have won. It just wasn't going to happend even with Hall swimmig instead of Crocker. Caps off to the South Africans for a great swim and congrats to the Univ of Arizona for training them so ably.

[Sam Perry]

The "should've/would've/could've" is all conjecture. Crocker was going to swim at night no questions asked. I don't think a sore throat can make someone think they shouldn't swim. He is obviously not up to form for many reasons but no way can Reese take him off that relay for the night swim. That was the only thing we were sure of going into Athens was that Lezak and Crocker were swimming in finals. Bad race and we deserved to lose. Things happen...

[seltzer]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sam Perry
[B]The "should've/would've/could've" is all conjecture. Crocker was going to swim at night no questions asked.

Don't agree with "no questions asked"..if Crocker was sick then Reese, assuming that he knew, would ask Crocker if he was well enough to race. Crocker no doubt said "put me in coach."

I do agree that it doesn't matter now and it's time to focus on the other races today...especially the 4 X 200 free relay. If the US can win, and they have a good shot, then the momentum can swing back in our favor.

In my opinion, it comes down to whether Keller can beat Hackett. I'm hoping they both lead-off....Lochte and Vanderkaay should be able to beat Sprenger and Stevens (remember him?) so we might be looking at Phelps, one hour after the 200 fly, holding off Thorpe. How sweet it is.

[knelson]

Without giving anything away, the prelim results in the men's 100 free were pretty interesting today. Go to www.athens2004.com to look at the results.