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wiredknight
May 20th, 2002, 06:18 PM
I am looking for a list of Olympian Masters and what Olympics and events they particpated in. If you have such a list or know where one is, please let me know. Individual anecdotes are OK too.

Background:

I want to write to "Splash" magazine and ask them to feature some of the people on such a list when they write about great swimmers. I'm tired of reading (and having my kids read) about so-and-so great swimmer, who got to the Olympics, did great, and now swimming is behind them (i.e. they don't swim anymore). On the "mission statement" of Splash, they give lip service to a lifelong involvement with swimming, but they never seem to come up with an example of such a person.

wiredknight

Frank Thompson
May 20th, 2002, 10:41 PM
Go to the USMS History and Archives section of this website and you will see a section on Olympians in USMS. These are people that have registered and swam in Masters Swimming since it started 30 plus years ago.

Robin Parisi
May 21st, 2002, 12:20 PM
I've scoured the History and Archives page (under "Competition") but can't find a "former Olympians" category. Am I looking in the wrong place?

Gail Roper
May 21st, 2002, 12:48 PM
I maintain the list of Olympians for USMS. Email me at gailswim@earthlink.net.

Gail Roper
May 21st, 2002, 12:51 PM
We prefer not to be called "former" Olympians. A swimmer who makes the Olympic team is an Olympain for life, it's like a doctor's degree. A small thing....

Gail Roper
May 21st, 2002, 05:37 PM
There are 171 Olympians who have joined Masters over the years, although not all of them have competed. In Hawaii there were Ron Karnaugh, Plamen Alexandrov, Tori Trees Smith, Limin Liu, Yoshi Oyakawa, Bill Mulliken, Geoff Gaberino, Graham Johnston, Roque Santos, Colette Crabbe, Steve Clark, Jeff Farrell and myself. If anyone knows of an Olympic swimmer that I've missed, please let me know. Thanks.....

jroddin
May 22nd, 2002, 11:46 AM
Jeremy Linn was also at the meet, I think (I wasn't there but saw his name in the results). He swam in Atlanta in '96.

Gail Roper
May 22nd, 2002, 02:53 PM
Yes, thanks for spotting that. I will add Jeremy Linn to the list. If anyone out there knows of Olympians swimming masters that are not competing, please help me out with this list. It is wonderful that so many are swimming again.

SwimStud
October 24th, 2007, 12:33 PM
Is this list complete though? I am sure there could be a couple of swimmers out here that have been overlooked. I'd love to know who I might be sharing aqua with.

Any non US Olympians among our crowd? Do they get a list?

Paul Smith
October 24th, 2007, 12:38 PM
There are 171 Olympians who have joined Masters over the years, although not all of them have competed. In Hawaii there were Ron Karnaugh, Plamen Alexandrov, Tori Trees Smith, Limin Liu, Yoshi Oyakawa, Bill Mulliken, Geoff Gaberino, Graham Johnston, Roque Santos, Colette Crabbe, Steve Clark, Jeff Farrell and myself. If anyone knows of an Olympic swimmer that I've missed, please let me know. Thanks.....

Richard Schroeder was in Hawaii and at Worlds

Rowdy, Josh Davis & Dara swam at Indy and at Worlds

Vlad Pyshnenko worlds and i'm guessing quite a few more masters Olympians from other countries.

SwimStud
October 24th, 2007, 12:42 PM
some how double posted.

Gail Roper
October 24th, 2007, 01:21 PM
I currently have 196 Olympians on my list. If you know of anyone who is not on it, I will check with the USOC to verify their participation and add them to the list.

ALM
October 24th, 2007, 03:42 PM
Gail,

Is the list published somewhere? If not, if you could e-mail it to me I could capture it as a PDF document and attach it to this thread. That way we could all look for "missing" names.

Ron Neugent swims in my LMSC; he was a member of the U.S. 1980 team.

Anna Lea

The Fortress
October 24th, 2007, 03:43 PM
I currently have 196 Olympians on my list. If you know of anyone who is not on it, I will check with the USOC to verify their participation and add them to the list.

I can think of one. I'll PM you.

Gotta love Rowdy! Woot!

The coach of GMUP, Cheryl Ward, is a Canadian Olympian!

SwimStud
October 24th, 2007, 03:59 PM
I was wondering if any Brit Olympians swam stateside. I know it's a popular place to settle for other "retired" (for want of a better word) athletes.

Sam Perry
October 24th, 2007, 04:00 PM
My coach, Cheryl Ward, is a Canadian Olympian! She's swimming with me on Sunday. Woot!


I swam with Cheryl and her husband Peter in college. Please tell them hello for me if you get a chance.

P.S. If they know how to get in touch with Eric Heil (mine and Peter's roommate), please PM me with the information if you think about it.

Gail Roper
October 24th, 2007, 04:09 PM
Yes, I have Cheryl Ward. You can check out the list of Olympians on the USOC website. Go to athletes, then All-time Olympians, then you can check out swimmers by Olympic years.

The Fortress
October 24th, 2007, 04:20 PM
I swam with Cheryl and her husband Peter in college. Please tell them hello for me if you get a chance.

P.S. If they know how to get in touch with Eric Heil (mine and Peter's roommate), please PM me with the information if you think about it.

I will!! Cheryl is swimming in the sprint classic with me this weekend. I'm not sure if Peter has a college meet this weekend or not ... I'll try to remember to ask about Eric Heil.

Paul Smith
October 24th, 2007, 04:22 PM
Yes, I have Cheryl Ward. You can check out the list of Olympians on the USOC website. Go to athletes, then All-time Olympians, then you can check out swimmers by Olympic years.

Seems to me that having a section on this website calling out these athletes who are part of USMS would be a no-brianer...vs. having to go through all that is going on here?

The Fortress
October 24th, 2007, 04:49 PM
Seems to me that having a section on this website calling out these athletes who are part of USMS would be a no-brianer...vs. having to go through all that is going on here?

Good idea. This topic has led to some name calling in the past. Best to avoid.

Paul Smith
October 24th, 2007, 08:33 PM
This topic has led to some name calling in the past.

I must have missed that...what happened?

david.margrave
October 24th, 2007, 08:35 PM
Brian Goodell!

The Fortress
October 24th, 2007, 09:16 PM
I must have missed that...what
happened?

Check PM.

islandsox
October 24th, 2007, 10:47 PM
I know of several alternates to the Olympic Team in 1968; two of us are still swimming, but don't know about Dashelle Stein or Carter Schillig. Both were transplants into Texas and Carter swam under SMU prior to Mexico City. Bill Barrett, I believe, still swims, but it's hard to keep track after 39 years. Plus I now live in the Caribbean and do not associate with any Masters swimmers other than this forum. But great friendships were made with all of these people including Doug Russell and Don Schollander; wonderful people. And it's wondeful that so many still swim and that so many more are swimming!

donna

Frank Thompson
October 25th, 2007, 10:08 AM
Gail,

Is the list published somewhere? If not, if you could e-mail it to me I could capture it as a PDF document and attach it to this thread. That way we could all look for "missing" names.

Ron Neugent swims in my LMSC; he was a member of the U.S. 1980 team.

Anna Lea

Anna Lea and Paul:

If you want to find a list of all swimmers that have made the USA Olympic Roster and the results of all USA Olympic Trials and Qualifing Selection meet as they used to call it back many years ago, you can find it here on the USA Swimming site. http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=860&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

If you see any masters swimmers that are not on Gail's list, report them to Gail. This list obviously does not include USMS swimmers that represented other countries in the Olympics. Also watch out for changed names. For instance Gail Peters is Gail Roper on the 1952 list.

Paul Smith
October 25th, 2007, 10:38 AM
Frank.....thanks for the link but the point I was making is that USMS should look into finding away to both honor and acknowledge those athletes who are now a part of this organization.

Ms. Fox...according to Sam Bill Barrett is alive and swimming with Brophy here in AZ. I've already started trying to hunt him down as he would be an invaluable asset on our 45+ medley relay!

Fort...as usual I'm always the last to know these things! Somehow can't imagine any fireworks not having Geek involved...or one of the many anonymous Ion's that are floating around here!

Rob Copeland
October 25th, 2007, 10:53 AM
I know of several alternates to the Olympic Team in 1968;
donnaDonna,

In all my searching for Olympic Swimmers, I have yet to come across a roster of alternates. Could you please provide me with a link to any site with this information? I would love to have information on all of our alternates.

Also, http://63.241.144.244/olydb/Default.aspx has a good listing of 680+ Olympic Swimmers, with accomplishments and photos.

Gail Roper
October 25th, 2007, 10:58 AM
Yes, I did swim in the 1952 Olympics in the 200m breaststroke.............that was butterfly with a breaststroke kick then. I injured my ankle by pulling a ligament but against doctors orders I did swim. There is a DNF by my name that means "did not final", not did not finish. I was Gail Peters then.
The water was 71 degrees, the air 41 in the mornings..............this was before they had rules on temperature controls. And the sun never went down, we were so close to the Arctic circle.

The Fortress
October 25th, 2007, 11:04 AM
Donna,

In all my searching for Olympic Swimmers, I have yet to come across a roster of alternates. Could you please provide me with a link to any site with this information? I would love to have information on all of our alternates.

Also, http://63.241.144.244/olydb/Default.aspx has a good listing of 680+ Olympic Swimmers, with accomplishments and photos.

Isn't that part of the problem? There is no official site or link or listing?

Rob Copeland
October 25th, 2007, 11:18 AM
Isn't that part of the problem? There is no official site or link or listing?There are official sites and lists of USA Swimming Olympians. USA Swimming and the USOC both have well documented these lists.

As for alternates, I’m not looking for the “official site”; I’d love to have a link to ANY site, so I can update my links to swimming history.

Gail Roper
October 25th, 2007, 11:22 AM
The USOC never chooses alternates. If they had to, they would move the next qualifier up from the trials results. You can check out the Olympic trial finalists on the USA swimming website.

Rob Copeland
October 25th, 2007, 11:45 AM
Gail,

Thanks for the clarification.

ALM
October 25th, 2007, 11:47 AM
I know of several alternates to the Olympic Team in 1968; two of us are still swimming, but don't know about Dashelle Stein or Carter Schillig.


The USOC never chooses alternates. If they had to, they would move the next qualifier up from the trials results.

I don't see those two names (mentioned above) in the 1968 Trials results (from the link that Skip provided). Back then, would they have chosen alternates from a meet other than Trials?

Anna Lea

Frank Thompson
October 25th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Frank.....thanks for the link but the point I was making is that USMS should look into finding away to both honor and acknowledge those athletes who are now a part of this organization.

Ms. Fox...according to Sam Bill Barrett is alive and swimming with Brophy here in AZ. I've already started trying to hunt him down as he would be an invaluable asset on our 45+ medley relay!

Fort...as usual I'm always the last to know these things! Somehow can't imagine any fireworks not having Geek involved...or one of the many anonymous Ion's that are floating around here!

Paul:

Sometimes its hard to verify names of olympians, alternates, and olympic trial qualifiers. I helped put a list together many years ago with others and the result of that was the list that was up on the USMS History section, that was up about 5 years ago. Gail Roper keeps the updates of this official list for USMS. Sometimes its very hard because of changed names and impostors. Impostors meaning they think they did it and have poor memories of what happened. The USA Swimming list is good because you can see not only who was on the team but who actually swam to qualify for the team in the results of the Olympic Trials. And then you can tell who the impostors are.

You will get a kick out of this because someone would think that you were an impostor because you went by a different name when you swam for Cal-San Barbara. People knew who Bruce Stahl, Tim Glass, Brent Krantz, Rob Werner, and Ken Neff but did not know you. When you told me your changed name then everyone knew who you were and you were eliminated as a impostor suspect. We discussed this once because I said you should recruit Bruce and yourself back to masters swimming when I didn't know about the changed name.

Frank Thompson
October 25th, 2007, 12:43 PM
Donna,

In all my searching for Olympic Swimmers, I have yet to come across a roster of alternates. Could you please provide me with a link to any site with this information? I would love to have information on all of our alternates.

Also, http://63.241.144.244/olydb/Default.aspx has a good listing of 680+ Olympic Swimmers, with accomplishments and photos.

Rob:

Great link. However they list the swimmer from the state of there birth and not actually where they swam. I thought there was swimmers missing until I figured that out.

ALM
October 25th, 2007, 02:15 PM
You will get a kick out of this because someone would think that you were an impostor because you went by a different name when you swam for Cal-San Barbara.


Hmmm... "Paul Smith".... Elvis... Amelia Earhart... Jimmy Hoffa...

The Fortress
October 25th, 2007, 02:29 PM
Hmmm... "Paul Smith".... Elvis... Amelia Earhart...
Jimmy Hoffa...

I'm happy to be a changed name anonymous imposter -- although "imposter" is a pretty strong word to be tossing out there. Don't see Mark Spitz here jumping up and down and complaining ...

Rob Copeland
October 25th, 2007, 03:15 PM
Imposter is too strong. Would you prefer charlatan, fraud or faker?

Mark Spitz is not a registered member of this forum, so I don’t expect to see him jumping up and down here. However, in conversations I’ve had with him on a similar topic, he has a rather purest attitude about elite swimmers and he would likely use terms stronger than imposter for anyone falsely claiming to be an Olympian.

Frank Thompson
October 25th, 2007, 03:55 PM
I will give everyone an example of an impostor, charlatan, fraud, and faker of what ever word you want to use. About 20 years ago I coached someone who said he was an alternate on the 1936 Olympic team. When I wrote that in an article on the team in our newsletter, another swimmer who was not on an Olympic Team but was a World Record holder in the 100 Free in 1942 disputed the claim because he would remember this. I went to the International Swimming Hall of Fame Library and went thru every AAU Swimming and Diving Guide during that time period that they use to publish every year until 1980 for Swimming and did not find his name. I went thru all of the magazine and newspaper articles about the Olympic Trials and Selection Meets and did not find his name. I even went thru all of the Indoor and Outdoor AAU Swimming Championships and still came up empty. I asked Preson Levi, who at that time was the Head of the Library if there was anywhere else I could find anything and he said no. I came away with the conclusion that this swimmer had a memory loss or he was an (use any of the words you like). He only swam 1 year and he moved away. I don't even know if he is living still. To be honest, he did not swim like he was almost on the Olympic Team by the way of his technique even with age considered. When I discovered the USA Swimming listings, again I did not see his name on the Trials Selection Meet. I have heard of others claiming to be alternates of some Olympic Team but never seeing there name in any of the past results as proof or evidence of this achievment disputes the claim.

Carl Spackler
October 25th, 2007, 04:13 PM
Imposter is too strong. Would you prefer charlatan, fraud or faker?

Mark Spitz is not a registered member of this forum, so I don’t expect to see him jumping up and down here. However, in conversations I’ve had with him on a similar topic, he has a rather purest attitude about elite swimmers and he would likely use terms stronger than imposter for anyone falsely claiming to be an Olympian.


If you do a search in the 1 hour results for 2004 a Mark Spitz swam it. About the right age, right location. Only funny thing is the distance, only did 3990 yards. He either swam fly, or is out of shape for Mark Spitz. Does anyone know if this is the real Spitz.

http://www.usms.org/longdist/ldnats04/1hrresultsswmrs.pdf

ALM
October 25th, 2007, 04:42 PM
Does anyone know if this is the real Spitz.

I'm sure it is. He is a Masters swimmer. Rob just meant that he's not a user of these Discussion Forums.

And 3990 yards isn't too bad for a 54-year-old sprinter, is it? :)

Anna Lea

Frank Thompson
October 25th, 2007, 04:50 PM
Carl:

That is the one and only and same swimmer, Mark Spitz. I know someone on the UCLA team and they said he showed up at practice and swimmers were swimming this and he really didn't really want to do it. He did it as part of a practice session and that is the result of that. I don't think he was serious about this and did it as a fitness swim. I give him credit for doing it and turning it in.

I do remember in 1989 of Mark Spitz trying to get in shape and make a comeback. I do not believe that he never ever swam competitively in either a Sanctioned USA or USS swimming meet as it was called or a USMS Masters meet at the time. He was 39 at the time and the USMS Record for the 100 Meter Fly for the 35-39 age group was held by Freddy Schlicher at :58.5 and I was wondering if Mark could get close or break that record.

In the 2 year period, he got his time down to :58.03, which would be a great USMS time and World Record in Masters swimming. However, he was a far cry from the :55.59 Olympic Trial qualifing time and the :54.27 time he did that won the gold medal for the 100 Meter Fly in 1972. This was still pretty amazing because he took 17 years off of swimming competition.

Bottom line from all of this is that if he wants to I sure he would be an excellent masters competitior but he probably does not want to be and that is ok to.

By the way I saw that you swam for Ohio State University and went to see if you knew a friend of mine that I swam with in High School. I went to this site here http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/fls/17300/pdfs/osumswimrecords.pdf
and could not find you. I am not saying you are an impostor but maybe they don't have you down as a letter winner. I see some Masters swimmers that I know and compete against in USMS like George Schmidt and Lonnie Harrison. I also see USMS Executive Director Todd Smith there.

Rob Copeland
October 25th, 2007, 04:53 PM
I'm sure it is. He is a Masters swimmer. Rob just meant that he's not a user of these Discussion Forums.

And 3990 yards isn't too bad for a 54-year-old sprinter, is it? :)

Anna Lea

Mark was 53 when he went his 3990 in 2004.

In 2005 at age 54 he went 4020. Getting better with age:applaud::applaud:

The Fortress
October 25th, 2007, 05:08 PM
Imposter is too strong. Would you prefer charlatan, fraud or faker?

Mark Spitz is not a registered member of this forum, so I don’t expect to see him jumping up and down here. However, in conversations I’ve had with him on a similar topic, he has a rather purest attitude about elite swimmers and he would likely use terms stronger than imposter for anyone falsely claiming to be an Olympian.

I thought "imposter" was a bit strong to apply to the particular person that I thought Gail and Frank were alluding to. If they were not, then I would prefer scurrilous in front of any of those words if all that detective work yielded results.

Missed my point about Spitz though. I was alluding to something else.

Carl Spackler
October 25th, 2007, 05:18 PM
Carl:

That is the one and only and same swimmer, Mark Spitz. I know someone on the UCLA team and they said he showed up at practice and swimmers were swimming this and he really didn't really want to do it. He did it as part of a practice session and that is the result of that. I don't think he was serious about this and did it as a fitness swim. I give him credit for doing it and turning it in.

I do remember in 1989 of Mark Spitz trying to get in shape and make a comeback. I do not believe that he never ever swam competitively in either a Sanctioned USA or USS swimming meet as it was called or a USMS Masters meet at the time. He was 39 at the time and the USMS Record for the 100 Meter Fly for the 35-39 age group was held by Freddy Schlicher at :58.5 and I was wondering if Mark could get close or break that record.

In the 2 year period, he got his time down to :58.03, which would be a great USMS time and World Record in Masters swimming. However, he was a far cry from the :55.59 Olympic Trial qualifing time and the :54.27 time he did that won the gold medal for the 100 Meter Fly in 1972. This was still pretty amazing because he took 17 years off of swimming competition.

Bottom line from all of this is that if he wants to I sure he would be an excellent masters competitior but he probably does not want to be and that is ok to.

By the way I saw that you swam for Ohio State University and went to see if you knew a friend of mine that I swam with in High School. I went to this site here http://www.ohiostatebuckeyes.com/fls/17300/pdfs/osumswimrecords.pdf
and could not find you. I am not saying you are an impostor but maybe they don't have you down as a letter winner. I see some Masters swimmers that I know and compete against in USMS like George Schmidt and Lonnie Harrison. I also see USMS Executive Director Todd Smith there.

Well, unfortunately I didn't letter ( I was a scrub) and Carl Spackler is Bill Murray's character in Caddyshack not my real name. I'm one of "those people" that uses an alias on message boards. Thanks for all the feedback on Spitz everyone. I had kind of figured he was just doing a workout swim or something.

I didn't mean to imply that 3990 was "bad", but since my PB was 4440 when I was 50, I couldn't believe that I had beaten Mark Spitz . No doubt if he trained for it and gave even a moderate effort, he would be dusting us all. Well, except Jim McConica. ( Didn't McConica just miss the 72 Olympics in the 200 free? )

Feel free to PM me about your friend. I saw a lot of familiar names on the link. Thanks for that.

islandsox
October 25th, 2007, 06:57 PM
I find it fascinating that the history of swimming's record keeping is the only one in the world that has been perfected and all data is completely accurate. I know of no other organization worldwide that can make this claim, so I commend you all for such outstanding work.

And Rob is correct in his statements about Mr. Spitz; Mark would not have "kindly" used the words charltan, imposter, etc., for those people who claim titles and did not earn them. Mark would have not been so diplomatic and I wouldn't blame him. But we all know that Mark Spitz did things swimming wise that really haven't been done since; the guy was blazingly fast. I remember when Doug Russell took the 100 fly away from him (once); it wasn't a pretty picture, but Mark dug his heels in and showed everyone years later. What a competitor.

Sometimes, there are a few really great swimmers that are developed and to people who do not know them, they appear arrogant. I think this is confidence that they know they need to stay at such an elite level. And outside the pool, they are differently nice. Kind of reminds me of artists and musicians.

There was another thread about our Olympic heros; you know, there are just so many talented people, it's very hard to pick just one. I'd have to say: all of them. They continue to inspire all of us and, hopefully, our younger generation.

donna

Swimmer Bill
October 25th, 2007, 06:59 PM
I have heard of others claiming to be alternates of some Olympic Team...

"Did you ever have the feeling of vuja de'? Yes that's right, vuja de'. It's the uncanny feeling that none of this has ever happened before." - Johnny Carson

:agree:

The Fortress
October 25th, 2007, 07:11 PM
"Did you ever have the feeling of vuja de'? Yes that's right, vuja de'. It's the uncanny feeling that none of this has ever happened before." - Johnny Carson

:agree:

Yeah, I have that feeling right now, tinged with a nice dash of purist/elitist ______. :shakeshead:

Ugh. I hope this isn't the "face" of masters swimming. Insinuation, accusation and detective work by infrequent posters who only post on "Olympic" threads. I'm happy to be branded as mediocre so no one begins an investigation of my would-be college records. I'm heading back to my measley gridge races with the non-Spitzian types. Peace out.

Frank: You've read Deep Water. Nice aside about an Olympic alternate backstroker.

islandsox
October 25th, 2007, 07:33 PM
Yeah, I have that feeling right now, tinged with a nice dash of purist ______. :shakeshead:

Ugh. I hope this isn't the "face" of masters swimming. Insinuation, accusation and detective work by infrequent posters. I'm happy to be branded as mediocre so no one begins an investigation of my college records. God, they were so slow too. In fact, did I really even have any? Do I deserve top ten times even though I didn't travel to any nationals meets this year? So many issues in threads these days ... I'm heading back to my measley gridge races. Peace out.

Hey, Fort, I'm with you; I am not a record holder; the Top Tens I got in USMS aren't even listed (there is only 1 listed), so I guess dementia has set in :rofl:however, when I do my Roatan to Utila swim, (and hope that I can complete that darn thing), I'm filling out FINA paperwork so there will be no doubts whatsoever that I completed that 20 miles according to the rules. Because if I can complete it, it will be my record and I'll have it at least on paper which seems to be vital. And I'll have the boat captain whom I do not know, complete the paperwork, not me. But I will know I did it and that's really what matters. I may even put my swimsuit in a box for 3 months afterwards and celebrate with Monkey La-La's! At least my swim is already raising monies for my charity!

PS: it's the training for it that's the killer!

Swimmer Bill
October 26th, 2007, 12:39 AM
I would prefer scurrilous...

Scurrilous is definitely a good word for it.

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 08:03 AM
Scurrilous is definitely a good word for it.


Isn't that what a fat mouse does, scurry less?

Swimmer Bill
October 26th, 2007, 10:24 AM
Isn't that what a fat mouse does, scurry less?

Only if it gets the cheese, then it's scurrilicious.

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2007, 01:18 PM
[QUOTE=The Fortress;111815]Yeah, I have that feeling right now, tinged with a nice dash of purist/elitist ______. :shakeshead:

Ugh. I hope this isn't the "face" of masters swimming. Insinuation, accusation and detective work by infrequent posters who only post on "Olympic" threads. I'm happy to be branded as mediocre so no one begins an investigation of my would-be college records. I'm heading back to my measley gridge races with the non-Spitzian types. Peace out.

Frank: You've read Deep Water. Nice aside about an Olympic alternate backstroker.[/QUOTE

What is this suppose to mean? I never said anything about an Deep Water or an Olympic backstroker. The swimmer I was talking about in my example supposedly swam in the 1936 Olympic Trials. Please show me where I made those comments. Show me where the is the insinuation and accusation is.

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 01:23 PM
Take my name off your post immediately, Frank. I have had a male poster threatening me via PMs, and I choose not to have my name or personal information on this forum at this time.

I was not referring to you. Your posts are invariably helpful and informative. I was refering to Gail Roper and her outright accusations against another poster, who she believes was not a 1968 olympic alternate, as you may or may not know. However, you did make a one sentence comment above that was quoted by Swimmer Bill. Perhaps he misquoted you. If so, glad to hear it. I have PM'd you what I meant by my reference to Deep Water.

I have just not been a fan of this, now second, public drubbing. Better to grow masters swimming in a different way.

As Stud notes, we are not all big cheeses.

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 01:34 PM
Only if it gets the cheese, then it's scurrilicious.

the big cheese? :D

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2007, 01:56 PM
Take my name off your post immediately, Frank. I have had a poster threatening me via PMs, and I choose not to have my name or personal information on this forum at this time.

I was not referring to you. Your posts are invariably helpful and informative. I was refering to Gail Roper and her outright accusations against another poster, who she believes was not a 1968 olympic alternate, as you may or may not know. However, you did make a one sentence comment above that was quoted by Swimmer Bill. Perhaps he misquoted you. If so, glad to hear it. I have PM'd you what I meant by my reference to Deep Water.

I have just not been a fan of this, now second, public drubbing. Better to grow masters swimming in a different way.

As Stud notes, we are not all big cheeses.

I could not find any reference to Gail Roper and outright accusations against another poster. Yes I did detective work on this because I did not recall reading any of this. I will admit that I did not read the posts in fat swimmers. What I did find was only one reference and that is in post 42 and 43 of thread on fat swimmers. It seemed like a fair question at the time. http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?p=86346#post86346

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 02:01 PM
I could not find any reference to Gail Roper and outright accusations against another poster. Yes I did detective work on this because I did not recall reading any of this. I will admit that I did not read the posts in fat swimmers. What I did find was only one reference and that is in post 42 and 43 of thread on fat swimmers. It seemed like a fair question at the time. http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?p=86346#post86346

Gail's accusatory post and my responsive post (and several others responding to Gail) were subsequently deleted at my request after I reported Gail's post. Her post clearly violated the forum rules.

aquageek
October 26th, 2007, 02:03 PM
I don't understand a lick of this alleged controversy but guess we must have angst about every topic now. It's a good thread minus the mindless bickering.

Let us not forget our Special Olympians, like Stud and Smith.

Rob Copeland
October 26th, 2007, 02:05 PM
I was refering to Gail Roper ...Since you are throwing names out there, hopefully I can clarify Gail’s role in this. Gail has volunteered (for many many years) to maintain a list of swimming Olympians for the benefit of USMS members on behalf of the USMS History and Archives committee. Gail is a long time Masters swimmer and was a member of the 1952 Olympic team (swimming as Gail Peters).

As any good historian, Gail is looking for documentary evidence to be able to include individuals on the official roster of Masters Olympians. It is my understanding that Gail was unable to find and swimmer in question was unable to provide any documentation to support her claim. And there are plenty of sources of Olympic team and Olympic trial swimmers available on the web, through USA Swimming and the USOC. Hopefully the swimmer can produce this documentation and USMS can add her to our list. Until such documentation can be provided I stand behind Gail’s position to deny inclusion on the USMS Olympians roster.

I have no idea how Gail’s requests for documentation on behalf of USMS were turned into “outright accusations”.

Gail thanks for maintaining this for Masters Swimming!

scyfreestyler
October 26th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Why all the fuss over USMS Olympians? Who cares? :dunno:

gull
October 26th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Just for the record, I changed my name, too. I used to be named somebody much faster.

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 02:10 PM
Let us not forget our Special Olympians, like Stud and Smith.

Well, My mother said I was special...

Your Momma said "Life is like a box of chocolates..."

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 02:11 PM
Since you are throwing names out there, hopefully I can clarify Gail’s role in this. Gail has volunteered (for many many years) to maintain a list of swimming Olympians for the benefit of USMS members on behalf of the USMS History and Archives committee. Gail is a long time Masters swimmer and was a member of the 1952 Olympic team (swimming as Gail Peters).

As any good historian, Gail is looking for documentary evidence to be able to include individuals on the official roster of Masters Olympians. It is my understanding that Gail was unable to find and swimmer in question was unable to provide any documentation to support her claim. And there are plenty of sources of Olympic team and Olympic trial swimmers available on the web, through USA Swimming and the USOC. Hopefully the swimmer can produce this documentation and USMS can add her to our list. Until such documentation can be provided I stand behind Gail’s position to deny inclusion on the USMS Olympians roster.

I have no idea how Gail’s requests for documentation on behalf of USMS were turned into “outright accusations”.

Gail thanks for maintaining this for Masters Swimming!

She used the word "liar" on the forum, Rob. And this was prior to "resolution" of the documentation issue, I believe.

I agree with Matt's take on this topic.

david.margrave
October 26th, 2007, 02:12 PM
I heard that Mark Spitz beat some of his old times during his comeback! Although he got faster it was not quite fast enough for qualifying for the Olympics again.

Rob Copeland
October 26th, 2007, 02:17 PM
She used the word "liar" on the forum, Rob. And this was prior to resolution of the documentation issue, I believe.

I agree with Matt's take on this topic.Would you have preferred imposter???

And for someone who agrees with Matt, then why all the continued fussing?

aquageek
October 26th, 2007, 02:21 PM
This thread is hot.

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 02:22 PM
Deception, bad words, name changing, cat fighting


And none of it over you!!!

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 02:24 PM
Would you have preferred imposter???

And for someone who agrees with Matt, then why all the continued fussing?


Because I am a bad person and like to defend friends.

I didn't like the way it was handled. She was jumped on and called a "liar" before she had any chance to defend herself privately.

Is Rob a cat?

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 02:29 PM
Is Rob a cat?

Yes, Top Cat!

aquageek
October 26th, 2007, 02:37 PM
And none of it over you!!!

Gull's fast youth name was Eagle. He's mellowed now.

scyfreestyler
October 26th, 2007, 02:40 PM
There are some vultures around here as well.

Rob Copeland
October 26th, 2007, 02:42 PM
I didn't like the way it was handled. She was jumped on and called a "liar" before she had any chance to defend herself privately.I’m not a big fan of how this is being handled either. And in reviewing deleted postings I found absolutely NO posting in which Gail called Donna or anyone else a "liar".

david.margrave
October 26th, 2007, 02:45 PM
How about a little change of subject, which Olympian masters are actively competing in meets or events in the last year or two?

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 02:52 PM
I’m not a big fan of how this is being handled either. And in reviewing deleted postings I found absolutely NO posting in which Gail called Donna or anyone else a "liar".


I don't care to debate this issue with you anymore. I know what I read. And others do too, because they posted in response to it as well. However, I do agree with your first sentence.

Poor Geeky, watching a soap opera and not knowing the plot.

aquageek
October 26th, 2007, 02:53 PM
Poor Geeky, watching a soap opera and not knowing the plot.

Nope, sorry, about the same as every other soap opera lately.

matysekj
October 26th, 2007, 02:57 PM
She used the word "liar" on the forum, Rob.

Just to clarify: This is not true. That statement was never made using that term. I try to keep a record of all deleted posts from this forum, and looked this up to be sure.

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 02:59 PM
Just to clarify: This is not true. That statement was never made using that term. I try to keep a record of all deleted posts from this forum, and looked this up to be sure.

Then perhaps it was a derivative of the word, like lying. Others saw it.

Geek: You love the soap operas. You try to keep them whipped up.

Frank Thompson
October 26th, 2007, 03:01 PM
I heard that Mark Spitz beat some of his old times during his comeback! Although he got faster it was not quite fast enough for qualifying for the Olympics again.

Not True. Mark Spitz did a :58.03 in the 100 Meter Fly during his comeback which was a far cry from the :55.59 Olympic qualifing time and the :54.27 he did at the 1972 Olympics. I explained this in post 42 of this thread. However, Mark's time would have broke the 40-44 World Record by 4 seconds of 1:02.05 by Lance Larson set in 1983 if he was a registered masters swimmer at that time. Back then you did not need to do the swim in a masters meet, which is a FINA requirement today.

Bill Specht did a :57.79 in 1999 to break the record of 1:02.05 by Lance Larson. Today the record is :57.57 by Paul Carter. The swim by Mark took 2 years to accomplish after a 17 year lay off from competition.

matysekj
October 26th, 2007, 03:01 PM
Then perhaps it was a derivative of the word, like lying. Others saw it.

No. You are simply mistaken. I have the original text right here in front of me.

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 03:02 PM
No. You are simply mistaken. I have the original text right here in front of me.

Then PM me with it please and I'll see if it's what I distinctly recall reading, and I am not suffering from any memory loss whatsoever. As I recall, it was an ugly public takedown. My main point was, and is, that she was jumped on prior to having any chance to defend herself and without people even knowing what her name was, as it had changed. As mine will be changing soon.

You have to admit, Gail shouldn't have posted it.

ALM
October 26th, 2007, 03:02 PM
Gull's fast youth name was Eagle. He's mellowed now.

Was that "Eddie the Eagle", of Winter Olympic fame?

Anna Lea

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 03:03 PM
No. You are simply mistaken. I have the original text right here in front of me.

There had to be something in there that pissed someone off otherwise why is it gone? We know the USMS gang has to behave in public so...it begs the question. "Was there a guman on the grassy knoll?" I'm all for dsiclosure and locking threads rather than spiriting away. It removes "he said she said." Ultimately it's never the words, it's the manner of delivery.

It should be bygones.

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 03:04 PM
Was that "Eddie the Eagle", of Winter Olympic fame?

Anna Lea

Don't start on the Brits. Eddie is still an Olympian. ;)

Swimmer Bill
October 26th, 2007, 03:05 PM
...this was prior to "resolution" of the documentation issue, I believe.

Actually it was after, but it doesn't really matter in the long run. I like David's idea of turning the discussion toward Olympians who are participating in Masters swimming today.

Sue Walsh is one of my favorites, and I was lucky to chat with her at Nationals in Texas last summer. She is a fierce competitor and a great ambassador for our sport. Sue was a member of the 1980 US Olympic Swimming Team.

There was a nice article about her on the ACC web site earlier this year.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/c-swim/spec-rel/021507aae.html

aquageek
October 26th, 2007, 03:18 PM
There was a nice article about her on the ACC web site earlier this year.

http://www.theacc.com/sports/c-swim/spec-rel/021507aae.html

Thanks for posting this link. After the Marion Jones disaster, it's good to see some positive news about a fellow Heel.

ALM
October 26th, 2007, 03:25 PM
I like David's idea of turning the discussion toward Olympians who are participating in Masters swimming today.

It has always amazed me how many Olympic medal winners are so blase' about the whole thing. There is an Olympic medal winner who swims at our pool. One day I asked him whether he would bring his medals in for us to see. He replied, "Sure, if I can find them. They used to be in the knife drawer in the kitchen, but I think my wife moved them."

Anna Lea

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 03:34 PM
It has always amazed me how many Olympic medal winners are so blase' about the whole thing. There is an Olympic medal winner who swims at our pool. One day I asked him whether he would bring his medals in for us to see. He replied, "Sure, if I can find them. They used to be in the knife drawer in the kitchen, but I think my wife moved them."

Anna Lea

I give my medals to my kids. I'm the world champ to my son, which if it makes him get after it in swimming, great. He's going to be 6'5" according to plotted charts...so Olympic Swimming Medals are undoubtedly in his future. If not...he can track down Geek and pummel him for me...
:bump:

aquageek
October 26th, 2007, 03:43 PM
I give my medals to my kids.

Wow, the Colonies Zone is very generous, giving medals for 16th place finishes. Do those come in pink and purple?

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 03:46 PM
Wow, the Colonies Zone is very generous, giving medals for 16th place finishes. Do those come in pink and purple?

You can tell me when you get to taste them and look down your nose at the ribbon.
:laugh2:
I got another one for swimming the Hudson...I might wear it to the Sprint and have photos taken with it. Sign autographs and such...why not?

I'm just chuffed that you manage to make a thread called Olympan Masters all about me. Thanks ;)

david.margrave
October 26th, 2007, 04:10 PM
Not True. Mark Spitz did a :58.03 in the 100 Meter Fly during his comeback which was a far cry from the :55.59 Olympic qualifing time and the :54.27 he did at the 1972 Olympics. I explained this in post 42 of this thread.

Since I heard he broke some of his 1972 times I thought maybe there were other events he was working on, besides the 100 fly which as you point out he did not beat.

ALM
October 26th, 2007, 04:15 PM
I'm just chuffed that you manage to make a thread called Olympan Masters all about me. Thanks ;)

Chuffed?

Definition (1), or (2)? :)


(1) chuffed
–adjective British Informal.
delighted; pleased; satisfied.
[Origin: 1855–60; see chuff2, -ed2]


(2) chuffed
–adjective British Informal.
annoyed; displeased; disgruntled.
[Origin: 1825–35; cf. dial. (mainly S England) chuff, choff ill-tempered, surly, prob. to be identified with chuff1]
-

Swimmer Bill
October 26th, 2007, 04:18 PM
I've been lucky enough to hold two Olympic Gold medals in my lifetime (so far).

BJ Bedford let me wear her gold medal from the women's 4 x 100 medley relay at the Sydney Olympics when we took a picture together at the USOTC in Colorado Springs. BJ and I both attended the Peddie School, and I first met her when shooting a cover for Swimming World Magazine back in the early '90's. The cover also featured swimmer Nelson Diebel and coach Chris Martin at the Peddie School's Clinton I. Sprout Pool.

Tom Jager spoke at the Oregon Masters awards banquet in 2005 and passed the medals around for all to see. So I got to touch the gold medal he won swimming the prelims of the 4 x 100 medley relay at the Los Angeles Olympics. It was pretty scuffed up and scratched from years of being handled by fans.

I really wanted to bid on Anthony Ervin's gold medal when he sold it on eBay. I would've given it back to him. But the best memorabilia I have to offer is an autographed swim cap with Tracy Caulkins' and Michael Phelps' names on the same cap, and another with Mary T. Meagher and Ian Crocker on the same cap. Somewhere, I have a ticket stub from the 2004 Janet Evans Invitational signed by Janet.

:bolt:

aquageek
October 26th, 2007, 04:21 PM
I have an autographed cap from Rowdy that says "Go *my name* Go". I'm not wearing that in the water EVER. I've said this before but a chance to go to one of his clinics is money extremely well spent, super experience.

Rowdy didn't ask me to sign anything of his, oddly enough.

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Chuffed?

Definition (1), or (2)? :)


(1) chuffed
–adjective British Informal.
delighted; pleased; satisfied.
[Origin: 1855–60; see chuff2, -ed2]


(2) chuffed
–adjective British Informal.
annoyed; displeased; disgruntled.
[Origin: 1825–35; cf. dial. (mainly S England) chuff, choff ill-tempered, surly, prob. to be identified with chuff1]
-

1) Anna Lea... 1) lol

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 04:28 PM
The Colonies Zone is very generous


Yes, we are known for our generosity and kindness in encouraging all swimmers.

I have a nice photo of Rowdy from watching him win NCAAs in college. Unfortunately, it won't upload. Of course, who can be sure I was really at the meet? I believe Mr. Smith was also in attendance though.

swimshark
October 26th, 2007, 04:30 PM
I met Dara Torres in 2001. She came to a grand opening of a store near us and I went. She signed a card to "never give up" and then I got my picture taken with her. She was very nice and we were lucky that not many people were there.

Alison

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 04:30 PM
I have an autographed cap from Rowdy that says "Go *my name* Go". I'm not wearing that in the water EVER. I've said this before but a chance to go to one of his clinics is money extremely well spent, super experience.

Rowdy didn't ask me to sign anything of his, oddly enough.

we all know who you are...*your name*

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 04:31 PM
we all know who you are...*your name*


Yeah, he'll have to change it soon just like me.

matysekj
October 26th, 2007, 04:32 PM
I have an autographed cap from Rowdy that says "Go *my name* Go". I'm not wearing that in the water EVER.

Wow, all I ever got was a severe butt-kicking from Brian Goodell in the 400 IM at Mission Viejo nationals a few years ago (and I'm sure he doesn't even know about this). I most certainly wore that one in the water. I was so psyched that I was seeded ahead of him, but it just wasn't meant to be. Damn sandbagger. :bow:

aquageek
October 26th, 2007, 04:34 PM
I have a nice photo of Rowdy from watching him win NCAAs in college. Unfortunately, it won't upload. Of course, who can be sure I was really at the meet?

You can scan it and upload it, provided it is your photo. Scanning a pix takes about 1 minute and is a good way to preserve old film photos, especially if you have a good scanner. There are many places that will also digitize old pix. This will prevent you from losing old pix and you can prove you were at the meet, if that's important to you.

Why would I change my name? I've never publicized it, others have. Plus, it wouldn't matter anyway, I would still have the same IP signature since I'd use the same computers at my home/office. Plus, even if I did, I couldn't stop myself from tormenting the self-proclaimed Stud and my cover would be instantly blown.

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 04:38 PM
Plus, even if I did, I couldn't stop myself from tormenting the self-proclaimed Stud and my cover would be instantly blown.

No kidding.

My scanner is in the closet.

scyfreestyler
October 26th, 2007, 04:48 PM
we all know who you are...*your name*

Secrets are rather rare around here, especially with respect to identity.

SwimStud
October 26th, 2007, 06:14 PM
Secrets are rather rare around here, especially with respect to identity.

Won't take much to track me down.

islandsox
October 26th, 2007, 09:25 PM
I’m not a big fan of how this is being handled either. And in reviewing deleted postings I found absolutely NO posting in which Gail called Donna or anyone else a "liar".

And there it finally is, my name. I was waiting to see who finally didn't beat around the tired old bush anymore. Yes, folks, I am the alternate who never was because there is NO documentation on my attendance at the 68 Olympics in Mexico City. No record of me anywhere, so I am THE imposter. Slap my hands, but be sure to try to tell my father who was in the stands that day that I was not there; he may, as old as he is, 97, may try to deck you. And to no avail, once again, feel free to denigrate me and those others who worked their way to the Olympics and have been lost forever due to paperwork problems or name changes.

I just hope that with my coming out of the closet here that the thread can continue on with those Olympians with paperwork who are enjoying USMS swimming and competing to this day. And for those skeptics, I am still proud of the journey I spent my life to obtain. And to Gail Roper, I know you are only doing your job, please do it better for the future Olympians. I have lots of news articles and film, but I know this was not enough for you.

To everyone, things like this happen, please keep swimming and competing!

So long folks!

Donna

scyfreestyler
October 26th, 2007, 10:38 PM
And there it finally is, my name. I was waiting to see who finally didn't beat around the tired old bush anymore. Yes, folks, I am the alternate who never was because there is NO documentation on my attendance at the 68 Olympics in Mexico City. No record of me anywhere, so I am THE imposter. Slap my hands, but be sure to try to tell my father who was in the stands that day that I was not there; he may, as old as he is, 97, may try to deck you. And to no avail, once again, feel free to denigrate me and those others who worked their way to the Olympics and have been lost forever due to paperwork problems or name changes.

I just hope that with my coming out of the closet here that the thread can continue on with those Olympians with paperwork who are enjoying USMS swimming and competing to this day. And for those skeptics, I am still proud of the journey I spent my life to obtain. And to Gail Roper, I know you are only doing your job, please do it better for the future Olympians. I have lots of news articles and film, but I know this was not enough for you.

To everyone, things like this happen, please keep swimming and competing!

So long folks!

Donna

Donna,

You might be the first person to come out of the closet around here but rest assured, you won't be the last (there are a few that I suspect would like to come out as well :) ). Anyhow, your Olympic experience is really most important to yourself I suspect. Who cares what some liver lips on a forum thinks about your claims. If you know you did it, that is what matters. You have the pride and sense of accomplishment that comes from that experience to carry with you forever.

G'day.

The Fortress
October 26th, 2007, 11:54 PM
go back to posting on the gyno thread ... I think we might see tears soon, such sensitivity, such humanity.


Yes, we have this type of "mindless bickering" and taunting ...

And then we lose a good poster like Donna who, whatever the mysterious status of the paperwork or film clips or other Olympic alternates, contributed scads of useful information about training and stroke technique as well as encouraging newcomers. I found her comments to be extremely knowledgeable.

Tough not to take it personally. But, Donna, Matt's comments are ultimately correct and what matters. As a wise uber-swimmer recently told me, passion is a good and essential thing. Best not to waste it on nonsense. You just keep training for your Utila swim with great gusto. But get it well documented.

G'day.

knelson
October 27th, 2007, 01:10 AM
And then we lose a good poster like Donna who, whatever the mysterious status of the paperwork

I'm confused. Even the USA Swimming site has the 1968 Olympic Trials results posted: http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/0378c653-b1b5-45fe-afbc-1a00a57c3f16/1968.pdf
It seems like it should be pretty easy to see if someone did or did not swim there. Am I missing something?

Michael Heather
October 27th, 2007, 02:38 AM
Am I missing something?

No, you are not missing anything.

USA sends only qualifiers to the Olympics. No alternates. There are extra swimmers to qualify some relays in the morning heats, drawn from the top 6 places in the 100 and 200 Free at Trials.

Swimmer Bill
October 27th, 2007, 02:51 AM
A friend told me that there was a male diver who was an alternate in '68 and dove in the Olympics. However, the diver actually participated in the Trials.

3strokes
October 27th, 2007, 02:54 AM
And there it finally is, my name. I was waiting to see who finally didn't beat around the tired old bush anymore.
<....................snip....................>
So long folks!

Donna


Donna
I'm fervently hoping that this "So long folks!" of yours is concerning this specific thread and not a goodbye to the Forum. Losing you would NOT be good. Right now I'm too dizzy with very strong pain-killers and unable to put it more eloquently but, in a nutshell, "we all want and need you, your friendship, your wit and your swimming news around here."

C U L8R

aquageek
October 27th, 2007, 06:39 AM
Yes, we have this type of "mindless bickering" and taunting ...

I enjoyed this thread for its intended purpse, not its ultimate evolution into who may have lied about this or misquoted that.

I agree that Donna brings a lot to this forum.

dorothyrde
October 27th, 2007, 07:43 AM
Good heavens, I have not read this thread, and if it causes Donna to leave that really makes me sad. She is an awesome contributor to this forum.

When my son was younger one of his swimming buddy's Dad was a silver medalist in the hurdles at the Olympics. This guy is a great guy, we became friends sitting at lots and lots of swim meets. They have an Olympic monument here and when he got his square, I got to see his beautiful medal.

I tried to find information about his race on the internet. Well the person who got the gold in his race was someone by the name of Edwin Moses. I watched all of Edwin's races on TV during the Olympics because he was so incredibly amazing. My friend was barely mentioned anywhere and yet the Americans went 1-2 and he was 2. I can say that even though I remember watching Edwin, and had no idea about second place.

Goes to show you that media coverage is not always even.

quicksilver
October 27th, 2007, 08:23 AM
Anyone with a bit of internet know-how would sooner or later uncover information or articles which confirm or deny facts from fiction.

Islandsox has been competitively swimming since age eleven, has held several world records in the backstroke, as well as state records, and has been ranked top ten in USMS. She was an ex-Olympian (alternate).


I hope she's just taking a vacation for while ...or out for an 18 mile swim.

This thread which started out very light hearted somehow turned into the mosh pit during the light of the full moon this past week.

ALM
October 27th, 2007, 10:33 AM
"....has been competitively swimming since age eleven, has held several world records in the backstroke, as well as state records, and has been ranked top ten in USMS. She was an ex-Olympian (alternate)...."

The above quote comes from this web site, which is a travel & tourism web site for Honduras:
http://www.marrder.com/htw/2006Nov/travel.html

I wouldn't take their "world records" statement too seriously. Writers are known to use that term rather loosely, just like we've seen with the descriptor "Olympic-sized pool".

Plus, the world record progressions are easily found here:
http://www.olympic.org/uk/utilities/reports/level2_uk.asp?HEAD1=5&HEAD2=11

Anna Lea

ensignada
October 27th, 2007, 10:52 AM
People have shown their true colors on this thread.

Both sides in this argument have been ardent in their convictions. Only one side has been purposefully cruel.

While I hope, like Quicksilver, that Donna is simply taking a break, I would understand if she's knocking the dust of this place off her sandals for good.

What a sad, sad day.

Swimmer Bill
October 27th, 2007, 11:17 AM
Call me cruel, but I find the victim thing hard to swallow. Unaltered, original meet results, rankings and record progressions are widely available from reliable sources like the International Swimming Hall of Fame, USA Swimming, and Swimming World Magazine. The whole thing would be much less disturbing to me if there was one matching reference, but there isn't.

Let's get back to Olympians. Rowdy Gaines was a phenomenal speaker and clinician at the USOTC Camp a couple years ago. I hope he talks about Masters swimming during the Olympic broadcasts from Beijing. If Dara makes it, Masters is part of the story of her comeback.

quicksilver
October 27th, 2007, 11:42 AM
Plus, the world record progressions are easily found here:
http://www.olympic.org/uk/utilities/reports/level2_uk.asp?HEAD1=5&HEAD2=11




There's no reason to doubt the validity of the recordings.
But human error can and does happen.


Just an example...Our fellow forumite geochuck (from north of the border) relates all of his victories in great detail.
There's no reason to doubt his stories about friendships or experiences with some of the greatest names in swimming.
And oddly enough, his swimming accomplishments don't appear to have been recorded in documents anywhere on the web.


If it's not on paper, or transposed into computer format by FINA, does it mean that it never happened?
Apparently the answer seems to be yes.

SwimStud
October 27th, 2007, 11:57 AM
Dara makes it, Masters is part of the story of her comeback.

Dara...ok now let's see. documented proof of passing drug testing, yet STILL people say she's dirty...just goes to show you...people will make their own calls.

If Donna was after $ I'd be inclined to say that she would be more inclined to have a motivation to make this up.

So the Jury is out. While I believe Donna, I concede that without paper proof, there will always be detractors. Frankly, I don't give a cuss about whether she was or wasn't an Olympian. It's not like she mentioined it in every post for some self promoting reason. I don't even think Donna mentioned it on the forums first anyway.

Lastly, do you believe everything you read, or hear? I don't unless I was there. This is not a knock at Gail and her official USMS records, she is just the keeper of what info there is out there.

The Fortress
October 27th, 2007, 12:53 PM
Lastly, do you believe everything you read, or hear? I don't unless I was there.

Interestingly, Donna made this exact same point on the following thread: http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=8117&highlight=central+america.

On that strictly nsr thread, inexplicably, there was another accustory post by our historian toward Donna, which was also later deleted.

I'd be happy to see the films.

Swimmer Bill
October 27th, 2007, 12:53 PM
If it's not on paper, or transposed into computer format by FINA, does it mean that it never happened?

I'd say "yes" to that question if there was sufficient supporting material to verify what really happened.

:rolleyes: ennnnnywho... :bolt:

quicksilver
October 27th, 2007, 04:07 PM
Maybe so Bill. But I still want to give the benefit of the doubt.

And not to beat a dead horse...but this article (from a USMS publication) identifies Islandsox as an alternate member of the '68 Olympic team.
The Honduran gazette might have a few facts out of place...but not the official magazine. :cry:

poolraat
October 27th, 2007, 06:10 PM
:dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse:

scyfreestyler
October 27th, 2007, 06:43 PM
Since you are throwing names out there, hopefully I can clarify Gail’s role in this. Gail has volunteered (for many many years) to maintain a list of swimming Olympians for the benefit of USMS members on behalf of the USMS History and Archives committee. Gail is a long time Masters swimmer and was a member of the 1952 Olympic team (swimming as Gail Peters).

As any good historian, Gail is looking for documentary evidence to be able to include individuals on the official roster of Masters Olympians. It is my understanding that Gail was unable to find and swimmer in question was unable to provide any documentation to support her claim. And there are plenty of sources of Olympic team and Olympic trial swimmers available on the web, through USA Swimming and the USOC. Hopefully the swimmer can produce this documentation and USMS can add her to our list. Until such documentation can be provided I stand behind Gail’s position to deny inclusion on the USMS Olympians roster.

I have no idea how Gail’s requests for documentation on behalf of USMS were turned into “outright accusations”.

Gail thanks for maintaining this for Masters Swimming!


So she's off the roster but we'll give her credit in the USMS periodical?


:confused:

The Fortress
October 27th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Just noting possible legal issues involved here with a publication and any possible retraction/correction ... not saying anything everyone doesn't know ...

I notice that Dashelle Stein and Carter Schillig, two other alternates Donna refered to are not on the list of Olympians either. Can't find any info on them anywhere in a quick search.

Paul Smith
October 27th, 2007, 07:29 PM
This is a tough situation for me....I like the thread's concept.....and sadly given the world we live in can understand why it has made a couple of left turns and come to this point questioning someones credentials....

Lets face it in a world where it seems like every time we turn on the news or read the paper or log on we are inundate with stories of cheating, lying and worse...the ones that get me the most upset are the recent convictions of people impersonating military heros (purple hearts, medal of honor, etc.).

In our little forum here I think regardless of how it comes up if there is a question at all of a persons accomplishments Olympic or otherwise that it could hopefully be handled...at least initially...via PM (which in my case it was as I did change from my adopted name of Goodridge after college to Smith which was my birth name....some questioned me on some times/events/etc, rightfully so)....

When we get into the "real deal" as I will say like the Olympics....we know that it carries a lot of clout having that on ones resume and hope that Donna would understand for the sake of all Olympians people will want to verify...that does not however mean it should in any way be done without respect....

And Jim....I agree that its probably not a good idea to delete threads that are going down hill...but rather close them and leave as a public record for people to revisit and see for themselves what may or may not have been written.

tjburk
October 27th, 2007, 09:43 PM
I'd say "yes" to that question if there was sufficient supporting material to verify what really happened.

:rolleyes: ennnnnywho... :bolt:


I believe recently one coach was found to have expunged names from record books......... ahhhhh but that was another topic all together!:dedhorse:

knelson
October 27th, 2007, 09:47 PM
Both sides in this argument have been ardent in their convictions. Only one side has been purposefully cruel.

I, for one, have no intention of being cruel. I'm just interested in what the story is here and it's at least interesting that Donna doesn't appear in the Trials results. I really don't know with certainty that Olympic teams have been picked solely on Trials results, so that's certainly a possibility. On the other hand I really can't see why anyone would claim to be an Olympian--alternate or otherwise--unless they actually were barring mental illness.


Just an example...Our fellow forumite geochuck (from north of the border) relates all of his victories in great detail.
There's no reason to doubt his stories about friendships or experiences with some of the greatest names in swimming.
And oddly enough, his swimming accomplishments don't appear to have been recorded in documents anywhere on the web.

Not true. Take a look at p. 12 in this document which lists all relay medals Canada has won in Commonwealth Games competition: http://www.swimming.ca/app/DocRepository/18/Media_guide/Media_Guide_ebook.pdf
Since they are relays it only lists his last name, Park, but he's there on three medaling relays in 1954 and 1958.

Here's a web page showing several books on marathon swimming and George's name appears a couple times: http://www.soloswims.com/books.htm

The Fortress
October 27th, 2007, 09:49 PM
In our little forum here I think regardless of how it comes up it could hopefully be handled...at least initially...via PM.

We hope that Donna would understand for the sake of all Olympians people will want to verify...that does not however mean it should in any way be done without respect....

And Jim....I agree that its probably not a good idea to delete threads that are going down hill...but rather close them and leave as a public record for people to revisit and see for themselves what may or may not have been written.

This is basically all I was saying, however poorly. In a difficult situation such as this, handling it in some private manner is likely preferable to having a usms historian hijack two threads with accusations and having the top cat publicly weigh in on the accusations here. Plus, then you have some posters apparently salivating over "deception, bad words, and cat fighting." I did not enjoy the "cat fight," and now have a swim meet to go to as I am one of the very few that partake in said activity.

Paul: It was Rich/SwimStud that said we should avoid deletion and leave the record intact to avoid a big brother-ish approach.

For someone who was an alleged imposter, Donna certainly volunteered to retrieve information, provided name changes, etc. But it was deemed insufficient. Perhaps Olympic coaches or her coach (Don Easterling) could have been contacted. Who knows?

Kirk raises a good point about how one qualifies or qualified in the 1960s to be an "alternate."

Ian Smith
October 27th, 2007, 10:02 PM
Just an example...Our fellow forumite geochuck (from north of the border) relates all of his victories in great detail.
There's no reason to doubt his stories about friendships or experiences with some of the greatest names in swimming.
And oddly enough, his swimming accomplishments don't appear to have been recorded in documents anywhere on the web.

Just to chime in on behalf of George who was, for sure, an 1956 Olympian (also swam in Commonwealth Games & Pan-Am Games) His POOL performances have been fully recorded in a book on the history of Canadian swimming going back to the first Olympics, written by Jack Kelso (National team member but not Olympian) in the last 8 years or so.

I have no idea where/if OPEN WATER results were ever recorded.

For Kelso's record as a master swimmer see the FINA site for 200IM 60-64 (he was the world record holder until recently)
http://www.fina.org/masters/pdf/tabs_SC_all.pdf

The problem, of course, when you are talking 1950's and 60's is that there was no Internet (even today not all is recorded). Generally only medal winners have been recorded. I have to commend Walt Reid at FINA for getting the masters times going back to 1986 onto their site .

I have always felt the Olympic Games people need to get off their butts and put historical heats, semis and finals from every games on the web. I don't know what their problem is.

Ian.

Like others in this thread, I am curious as to what the technical definition of an 'alternate' is? Do they still have them? Has the definition changed over time? Are the rules listed somewhere?

quicksilver
October 27th, 2007, 10:46 PM
Hi Ian, (and Kirk),

Thanks for clarifying that about George. I've never doubted the authenticity of his claims.

His achievements however were challenged by some former posters in a thread dating several years back. Obviously the potential for being lost in the cracks is very possible when transferring data from paper to digital. His story could have been another example of no internet proof...no validity to the claim.

I don't know how he would have taken the news that his swimming career was just a figment of his imagination.
Fortunately his team mate had documented the results from their swimming days.





By the way Paul, that was a very thoughtful post. Very well said.

Peter Cruise
October 27th, 2007, 10:57 PM
To follow up on what Ian wrote, is that alternating, current?

Sorry, Canadian sense of humour, ignore as usual.

Michael Heather
October 27th, 2007, 11:15 PM
Like others in this thread, I am curious as to what the technical definition of an 'alternate' is? Do they still have them? Has the definition changed over time? Are the rules listed somewhere?

Since I have not competed in a championship swim meet that uses heats and finals in about 31 years, this may not be accurate any more, but I'll give you all something to start with:

The top 8 swimmers in heats were sent to the championship heat. The next 8 were in the consolation finals. The next two or three were labeled alternates in case anyone could not make the final 2 heats. If any one scratched, everyone else (ranked below them) moved up a spot, and an alternate was put into lane 8 of the consols. In the Olympic trials, since there is no consolation heat, the alternates would be the 9-10 spots. That "title" evaporates as soon as the championship heat starts.

The word "alternate" is actually in print on the championship heat seeding posted at the meet, but pointless for anything else.

ALM
October 28th, 2007, 01:25 AM
I notice that Dashelle Stein and Carter Schillig, two other alternates Donna refered to are not on the list of Olympians either. Can't find any info on them anywhere in a quick search.

I couldn't find those names in the 1968 Olympic Trials results (prelims or finals, men or women).

The results are fun to look at, though. In 1968 they apparently held the men's and women's trials separately. The women's trials are listed at "Los Angeles Swim Stadium, Calif.", August 24-28, 1968. The men's trials are listed at "Long Beach, Calif.", August 30 - September 3, 1968.

It looks like each event had between 5 and 7 preliminary heats, and one heat of finals. Electronic timing apparently was used because a few times have the notation "Human Time" next to them.

There are a few familiar names among the competitors: Mark Spitz, Gary Hall, Ross Wales, Don Schollander, James Counsilman. There is also a Douglas Windes from club SCSC. I wonder whether he was related to Rick Windes.

Anna Lea

Swimmer Bill
October 28th, 2007, 03:40 AM
I couldn't find those names in the 1968 Olympic Trials results (prelims or finals, men or women)...The results are fun to look at, though. There are a few familiar names among the competitors...

Another familiar name in the results is Jane Swagerty, who made the 1968 US Olympic Team in...you guessed it...the 100 meter backstroke!

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

She is now known to Masters swimmers as Jane Swagerty-Hill, Masters world record holder in the women's 50-54 50 meter backstroke (both short course meters and long course), and USMS record holder in the women's 50-54 50 yard back.

:wave:

Rob Copeland
October 28th, 2007, 04:36 AM
This is not a knock at Gail and her official USMS records, she is just the keeper of what info there is out there.Gail’s role with USMS History and Archives goes beyond just the keeper of what information is out there. Gail is more of a true historian.

In all claims of Masters Swimming Olympians, Gail verifies these against published documents of USA Swimming (and its predecessors: USS, AAU, etc.) as well as the USOC and USOA. In fact, the USOA has strongly urged Gail to actively and publicly refute any claim of “Olympians” that can not be verified by USOC or USA Swimming.

So if anyone may wish to vilify Gail, please remember that 1) she is acting as any good historian should, 2) she is trying to follow the directives of the USOA and the direction of USMS, and most importantly 3) Gail is a volunteer, who has led the effort to track down and document nearly 200 Masters Olympians and is giving of herself to USMS in an effort to help maintain our history. Gail, I for one thank you for all you are doing for United States Masters Swimming!:applaud: :applaud: :notworthy: :notworthy: :applaud: :applaud:



I'm curious as to what the technical definition of an 'alternate' is? Do they still have them? Has the definition changed over time? Are the rules listed somewhere?I suggest you contact the USA Swimming national office in Colorado Springs for this information. The current Olympic team selection process is on their website. And previous selections processes should be available by request from USA Swimming.

aquageek
October 28th, 2007, 07:29 AM
I hope everyone has fun at the swim meet today.

ALM
October 28th, 2007, 01:45 PM
I suggest you contact the USA Swimming national office in Colorado Springs for this information. The current Olympic team selection process is on their website. And previous selections processes should be available by request from USA Swimming.

Here's a link to the document, "United States Olympic Committee Athlete Selection Procedure for the 2008 Olympic Games":

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/080ef7c5-147e-456f-b492-154fc0ac540f/08%20SOG%20SWI%20ATH%20(Pool)%20Final%20signed.pdf

I checked the Trials qualifying times on Page 17. I have until June 27, 2008, to make them... :rofl:

Anna Lea

MichiganHusker
October 28th, 2007, 03:12 PM
I would be interested in knowing who or how the results of the 1968 Olympic Trials were compiled. I notice that a number of heats are missing 1-3 swimmers, assuming each heat had 8 swimmers. Furthermore, not all of the "final" results list 8 swimmers, example the women's 200M Backstroke lists only 7 swimmers.

I am wondering of the accuracy? Don't yell at me, I'm just pointing it at. I only like to deal with confrontation and conflicts at work and this is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. :fish2:

The Fortress
October 28th, 2007, 05:17 PM
O good grief, give it a rest already, just having a bit of fun, it's not the end of the world or worthy of such angst. But, I'm happy you at least quoted someone correctly in this thread (me in this case).

Lighten up about this forum, just a bit. We're just having fun and you yourself have said repeatedly how much you enjoy a good round of smack-talk. Time to practice what you preach.

Gail is doing her job as a historian. Donna is doing her job in proving her point. It's not armageddon or Orwellian. I'm not sure we could consider Gail to be a good historian if she relaxed standards for friends on this forum.

I hope everyone has fun at the swim meet today.

Oh good grief, that's really rich, coming from you. Maybe you should practice what you preach.

I stand by my statements regarding Gail. The clear import of her posts was to call Donna a liar, and they were unnecessary and inappropriate where they were made.

But I'm glad you posted bright and early on a controversial thread just to scold me yet again, tell me how to behave, and to wish us well at our meet. Much fun was had by all, as usual.

I noticed the same omissions that Michigan Husker did.

ALM
October 28th, 2007, 06:24 PM
I would be interested in knowing who or how the results of the 1968 Olympic Trials were compiled. I notice that a number of heats are missing 1-3 swimmers, assuming each heat had 8 swimmers. Furthermore, not all of the "final" results list 8 swimmers, example the women's 200M Backstroke lists only 7 swimmers.

Yes, I noticed that too. In the 200M backstroke, the 8th swimmer should have been Kendis Moore. Her qualifying time (from Heat 3) was 2:27.41, which was the second-fastest time in the preliminary heats. I also noticed, though, that there are no DQs in the results at all. It makes me wonder if maybe they just didn't list DQs in the final results. Maybe she swam the finals and got DQ'd. Or maybe she just didn't swim the finals at all.

Kendis Moore did make the team in the 100 backstroke and (according to the USOC site mentioned earlier) finished 4th overall.

Another thought - back then they didn't have the luxury of using Meet Manager software like we do today. They most likely had to pre-seed the entire meet, type up the heat sheets on a (*younger swimmers probably won't understand this word*) TYPEWRITER, then run off copies on a (*younger swimmers definitely won't understand this word*) MIMEOGRAPH machine.

So, if a swimmer didn't show up, they didn't have any way to re-seed the heats; they most likely would have just left empty lanes in those heats.

If you look at the Women's 400IM results, you'll see that none of the prelim heats show eight swimmers:
Heat 1: 6
Heat 2: 5
Heat 3: 7
Heat 4: 6
Heat 5: 6
Finals: 8

That's a total of 10 empty lanes over 5 prelim heats. In today's world I'd hit "re-seed event" in Meet Manager and condense those 5 heats into 4 heats.

Anna Lea

pwolf66
October 28th, 2007, 06:36 PM
But, I'm happy you at least quoted someone correctly in this thread (me in this case).



Geek,

Sometimes it's really better not to say something than to say something snarky. Just my :2cents:

Paul

aquageek
October 28th, 2007, 06:46 PM
I stand by my statements regarding Gail.

OK.

swimshark
October 29th, 2007, 07:41 AM
Geek,

Sometimes it's really better not to say something than to say something snarky. Just my :2cents:

Paul

Well said, Paul (nice to meet you)

Alison

Rob Copeland
October 29th, 2007, 12:06 PM
I stand by my statements regarding Gail. The clear import of her posts was to call Donna a liar, and they were unnecessary and inappropriate where they were made.Me too!!!

I stand by my statements:
1 – Gail (Peters) Roper is an Olympian
2 – Gail is an volunteer historian working for the benefit of US Masters Swimming
3 – Gail NEVER called Donna or anyone else a liar on the USMS discussion Forum


People have shown their true colors on this thread.

Both sides in this argument have been ardent in their convictions. Only one side has been purposefully cruel. I agree. And hopefully those who are being cruel to Gail can get beyond this and possibly even help her by finding and providing information from USA Swimming, FINA, USOC, USOA, or IOC; which can be used to support Donna.

And maybe, just maybe this thread can return to its original intent.

The Fortress
October 29th, 2007, 02:04 PM
Me too!!!

I stand by my statements:
1 – Gail (Peters) Roper is an Olympian
2 – Gail is an volunteer historian working for the benefit of US Masters Swimming
3 – Gail NEVER called Donna or anyone else a liar on the USMS discussion Forum

I agree. And hopefully those who are being cruel to Gail can get beyond this and possibly even help her by finding and providing information from USA Swimming, FINA, USOC, USOA, or IOC; which can be used to support Donna.

And maybe, just maybe this thread can return to its original intent.

I agree with #1 and #2. Semantics aside or perhaps because of semantics, we will have to agree to disagree with respect to #3. I understand your defense of Gail as a dedicated volunteer. No one can doubt her dedication and hard work, and I did not do that. I merely believe that, in this isolated incident, her conduct was unprofessional. Her posts have been deleted, which confirms this. And others in USMS have suggested she did not act in the most appropriate fashion. If you do not agree, that is fine. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, as I am entitled to mine.

With respect to your second paragraph, I find it to be cruel. I don't really understand how questioning whether it is appropriate to denounce someone as a fraud on a public forum is cruel of me. I understand that Gail and others have been investigating. I also understand that paperwork from that pre-internet era can be spotty, that there has been no roster of 1968 Olympic athletes and alternates produced, and that there have been no live interviews. In light of these facts, I'm not sure one, especially a forum poster, can decisively conclude that a fraud has been perpetrated. Perhaps it has. But to say I am cruel and have shown my "true colors" for suggesting it is preferable to give someone the benefit of the doubt (and not attack them) on a public forum is odd and, yes, cruel. There are many worse traits in life than to defend someone that was attacked and perhaps wrongly accused. It has been known to happen in our society. If defending someone from an out-of-the-blue attack on an nsr thread or showing some loyalty makes me a bad person, I guess I am willing to live with it. Frankly, I think of myself as a very honest person, albeit admittedly outspoken. Although you don't know me IRL, people who do would certainly vouch for my integrity.

It's easy enough to malign someone. I don't always accept it as gospel. You have faith in Gail, and I appreciate that. But you didn't need to take me down, in your position, for wondering whether someone might be innocent or disliking the public manner in which the accusation was made on the discussion forum.

I will leave and let everyone else continue the, uh, discussion.

If you would like to see how an Olympian master swam this weekend, you can check the results from the Sprint Classic. She acquitted herself quite nicely.

ALM
October 29th, 2007, 02:06 PM
Comments for Gail...

There do seem to be some discrepancies between the 1968 Trials results and the USOC listing of athletes (http://www.usoc.org/13220.htm).

The 1968 Trials results show:

MEN'S 100 BREASTSTROKE FINALS
Donald McKenzie, 1:07.41
Kenneth Merten, 1:07.79
David Perkowski, 1:08.25
Brian Job, 1:08.36
Chester Jastremski, 1:08.55
Micael Dirksen, 1:08.76
Kenneth Doesburg, 1:08.77
Philip Long, 1:08.83

MEN'S 200 BREASTSTROKE FINALS
Brian Job, 2:28.95
Kenneth Merten, 2:29.97
Philip Long, 2:30.57
David Perkowski, 2:31.76
Chester Jastremski, 2:31.78
Wayne Anderson, 2:31.81
Michael Dirksen, 2:32.02
Kenneth Doesburg, 2:32.30


The USOC web site (http://www.usoc.org/13220.htm) lists these athletes as follows:

Donald McKenzie: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Gold Medal

Kenneth Merten: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Backstroke Individual - Eliminated; 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Eliminated (my comment: he didn't swim backstroke at Trials; do they mean breaststroke?)

David Perkowski: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Backstroke Individual - Eliminated (my comment: he didn't swim backstroke at Trials; do they mean breaststroke?)

Brian Job: 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Bronze Medal

Chester Jastremski: 1968 Swimming Swimming Individual - Did Not Compete

Philip Long: 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - 7th

-----------------------

Another odd thing... The ISHOF biography of Chester Jastremski (http://www.ishof.org/honorees/77/77cjastremski.html) says,

"...in 1968 he allowed too little time for his comeback as he made alternate in the Trials and actually swam .02 seconds faster at the Olympics than the winning time when allowed to swim the heats for the U.S. Medley Relay Team..."

-

Swimmer Bill
October 29th, 2007, 02:19 PM
In a difficult situation such as this, handling it in some private manner is likely preferable…

It was, and even though there is a lot of commentary here, it still is.


Kirk raises a good point about how one qualifies or qualified in the 1960s to be an "alternate."


I'm just interested in what the story is here…

Here are the results of the final heat of the women's 100-meter backstroke at the 1968 US Olympic Trials:

1) Kaye Hall, TSC 1:06.54
2) Jane Swagerty, SCSC 1:07.42
3) Kendis Moore, ADR 1:08.05
4) Pokey Watson, SCSC 1 :08.21
5) Susie Atwood. LAC 1 :08.49
6) Laura Novak, UN-MICH I :08.76
7) Patricia Bergman, R,v.C 1:08.88
8) Cecilia Dougherty, PH.AC I :09.3

Many documents of elite level swimming in the mid-late 60’s exist, such as national championship events, world rankings, and American and world record progressions.

The recent research was exhaustive, and it was fascinating to delve in to the history of a whole generation of swimming so fully – even if the exercise didn’t produce the one thing we really wanted to see.


I still want to give the benefit of the doubt.

Me too. My approach is to “verify, not disprove”. In the long run, the quality and quantity of the research left very little doubt, if any, in this situation.

One last note: the question at the heart of the provincial comment comparing SWIMMER Magazine with a Honduran newspaper was addressed in the editor’s note in the July/August issue. The additional proofreaders have been doing a super job, and that should be evident in the publication.


...maybe, just maybe this thread can return to its original intent.

I hope so, as well.

geochuck
October 29th, 2007, 03:19 PM
Hey Quick did I ever say I won at the Olympics or the BE Games or Pan American Games if I did it is a surprise to me. I have competed in all and many other races.

http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingPage.aspx?type=glpnews&search=george%20park%20canadian%20swimmer%201956%2 0olympics&img=\\na0001\583684\6570504.html

http://www.newspaperarchive.com/LandingPage.aspx?type=glpnews&search=george%20park%20canadian%20swimmer%201956%2 0olympics&img=\\na0030\6799130\56992184.html

Those happened to be the years I was sick 1952 to 1962 and unable to train but was still fast enough to qualify and swim in the Olympics, BE & C games and Pan Am games. If I came first it would have been miricale but I did not. I did come second to Clarke Scholes in th Pan Am Games in 1955 and beat him the following summer. I came 4th at the 1954 Empire Games behind the three fastest 100m men in the world at that time. The only year I felt I had a chance to win the 100 at the Olmpics was 1956 but I ran head on into the wall at the 50m turn.

I even beat George Breen in a 440 in 1954. I was also called the most out of shape athlete in the BE Games. I have won lots of races but I have also lost lots of races.


There's no reason to doubt the validity of the recordings.
But human error can and does happen.

Here are the reults pages of the Commonwealth games http://www.thecgf.com/games/intro.asp?yr=1962 too bad there is no such thing for the Olympic Games


Just an example...Our fellow forumite geochuck (from north of the border) relates all of his victories in great detail.
There's no reason to doubt his stories about friendships or experiences with some of the greatest names in swimming.
And oddly enough, his swimming accomplishments don't appear to have been recorded in documents anywhere on the web.


If it's not on paper, or transposed into computer format by FINA, does it mean that it never happened?
Apparently the answer seems to be yes.

ALM
October 29th, 2007, 03:34 PM
Here are the results of the final heat of the women's 100-meter backstroke at the 1968 US Olympic Trials:

...And here are the top 25 US times for 1968 as published in the December, 1968, issue of Swimming World magazine:

Women, 100 Meter Backstroke:
1:06.2, Kaye Hall
1:07.4, Jane Swaggerty
1:08.1, Kendis Moore
1:08.2, Pokey Watson
1:08.4, Susie Atwood
1:08.7, Laura Novak
1:08.8, Pat Bergman
1:09.2, Libby Tullis
1:09.3, Cecilia Dougherty
1:09.6, Lynn Skrifvars
1:10.0, Cathy Corcione
1:10.0, Evelyn Kossner
1:10.1, Lynn Vidali
1:10.1, Kathy Thomas
1:10.5, Candy Miller
1:10.7, Camille Juarez
1:10.7, Eadie Wetzel
1:10.7, Linda Stimpson
1:10.9, Kathy McKitrick
1:10.9, Leal Whittlesey
1:10.9, Dell Henry
1:11.0, Linda Prassas
1:11.2, Camila Britton
1:11.2, Chris Bolich
1:11.5, Tassy Bolton
1:11.5, Mary Campbell

Women, 200 Meter Backstroke
2:24.3, Pokey Watson
2:25.0, Susie Atwood
2:25.8, Kaye Hall
2:26.7, Kendis Moore
2:27.1, Cecilia Dougherty
2:20.2, Lynn Skrifvars
2:28.7, Kathy Thomas
2:29.3, Laura Novak
2:29.9, Libby Tullis
2:30.4, Camille Juarez
2:30.6, Ann Tasnady
2:30.7, Pat Bergman
2:30.9, Evelyn Kossner
2:31.3, Cathy Corcione
2:31.4, Lynn Vidali
2:31.7, Mary Campbell
2:31.8, Leal Wittlesey
2:33.0, Jane Swagerty
2:33.2, Barbara Thomas
2:33.2, Candy Miller
2:33.9, Linda Stimpson
2:33.9, Tassy Bolton
2:34.2, Mary Olcese
2:34.3, Terry Boone
2:34.3, Chris Bolich

I agree with Bill - it is fun to look at these old documents. Especially the swimsuit ads!

Anna Lea

geochuck
October 29th, 2007, 04:49 PM
Here is a list of Olympians who have swam in masters in Canada http://www3.sympatico.ca/chberger/olymp.htm

ALM
October 29th, 2007, 06:55 PM
George,

Did you ever read Diana Nyad's book, "Other Shores," about the marathon swimming circuit? I read it a long time ago and thought that it was a great book. I should read it again.

Anna Lea

SwimStud
October 29th, 2007, 07:30 PM
So if anyone may wish to vilify Gail, please remember that 1) she is acting as any good historian should, 2) she is trying to follow the directives of the USOA and the direction of USMS, and most importantly 3) Gail is a volunteer, who has led the effort to track down and document nearly 200 Masters Olympians and is giving of herself to USMS in an effort to help maintain our history. Gail, I for one thank you for all you are doing for United States Masters Swimming!:applaud: :applaud: :notworthy: :notworthy: :applaud: :applaud:


Nobody is trying to vilify Gail. My comments were made as,that Gail can only report what information she finds regarding Olympic athletes. Whether she does a good job is not of my concern as I don't pay her wages, and am not an Olympian.

I just want to point out that this thread was revived by me alone and without any collusion with anyone else.

Y'know, this isn't the FBI, but the deleted threads create a controversy of theirn. You can defend Gail's actions and justify them, but until you replace what WAS said and by who, it's hollow and maybe churlish to slap down a dissenter when only you have what transpired. If "liar" wasn't used, what was said? Please clarify for us all so we can all know what the fuss is about for sure and then put it to rest.

Or better yet....just delete this whole stupid mess of a thread.

Over and out.

SS.

ensignada
October 29th, 2007, 09:40 PM
I need to make a clarification in what I meant, Rob, when I said that only one side was being purposefully cruel.

I was referring to those who have been what I believe is unnecessarily rude to and dismissive of Donna Dunn.

USMS has its reasons for not believing her claims. That's fine. I am certainly not in a position to prove her claim one way or another. But I believe it could have been handled better than this public feeding frenzy.

As for Ms. Roper, I don't know her. I am unclear on what she said originally about Donna, but I seem to recall it was without professional detachment. Certainly not a crime, but unfortunate in a situation which should have been treated with some finesse.

I hope this cleared up any ambiguity.

If any of you want to discuss this further, please feel free to pm me, as I am no longer interested in looking at this thread. I'm with Poolraat: :dedhorse: and with SwimStud: close it down.

stillwater
October 29th, 2007, 10:22 PM
This thread has been a healthy and robust debate. It seems that some wish to stop the communication.

Hurt feelings and broken loyalites are sometimes necessary.


Miles

SwimStud
October 29th, 2007, 10:51 PM
Howard Squirm,

If you wish to discuss this thread. Here is the place to do it not my PM box which I reserve for friends and at least non-aliases.
Thanks

Rob Copeland
October 29th, 2007, 11:30 PM
... it's hollow and maybe churlish to slap down a dissenter when only you have what transpired.I guess I need more clarification; who slapped down whom? Were you speaking of my post “…in reviewing deleted postings I found absolutely NO posting in which Gail called Donna or anyone else a "liar".” in response to the post “…She was jumped on and called a "liar" before she had any chance to defend herself privately.”? Or is there post to which you are referring?

And as for deleting the posts on Fat Swimmers; at the time, the moderators choose to delete the posts and stop the thread instead of suspending or banning the members. I’ll get in touch with the other moderators and see if they wish to reverse this decision and repost the items and ban the posters

The Fortress
October 29th, 2007, 11:34 PM
I don't know who the Howard Squirm alias is either. Certainly sends interesting PMs. I can certainly say that the night of the first incident on the "fat" swimmer thread, the "ACTUAL" olympian (PM terminology, not mine) posted and then there were 3-4 responsive posts. I don't know who Howard Squirm is ... but he or she is certainly in possession of certain information.

Unfortunately, just because someone is an "ACTUAL" olympian does not automatically raise them in my estimation, as it might others. I'm sure they are mostly total class acts. And I'm sure there are some that I'd rather not associate with. All people are different. Marion Jones is an ACTUAL Olympian, but I don't admire her.

Rob: I see you are threatening to ban me with your recent post. I'm sorry you take exception to my remarks about Gail. But I likewise take exception to Gails' hijacked remarks about Donna -- even if Donna is ultimately proven to be a complete and utter fraud. If you want to slap me down ... Well, you pretty much have already on this thread several times already. I'm sure no one has missed it.

islandsox
October 29th, 2007, 11:40 PM
I have decided to log on for one last time and to not defend myself for it appears few are listening to the possibility that there could be any errors in previous paperwork constructed by humans and not done electronically and I find this almost outrageous. I choose to be careful in what I write because I have now retained legal counsel for advice options only. I just want my good name returned.

Please ask yourselves one last question: why would a person deliberately lie about such a feat when it can be confirmed? The answer to this question is very simple: a person wouldn't because the blowback would be horrific. Something terrible happened in the record keeping and no one is to blame. As I mentioned before, Gail has only done her job and I just hope that all swimmers, whether they be masters, lap poolers, even noodlers if there were a category, never have to be faced with such an uphill climb.

On a slightly happier note, at least everyone is digging into previous records and questioning this or that; that's a good thing, plus I am certain that people from long ago, if they were to read this thread, will feel grateful that they are being brought to the forelight and re-mentioned as the Olympians they are. Anyone who has made such accomplishments may have those memories in the background now, but all of you are bringing their memories back into the forefront. I see names I haven't seen in a long time. And new names from more recent Games and the Canadian Games.

Discussion is a good thing; controversy can also be a good thing to a point. I know many of you don't believe me, so be it, but I know. When and if choose to try to clear my name, I ask one thing of you: give people the benefit of the doubt if you know them to be people with a good heart and sound mind. Documentation is not always accurate but I know that those holding the said documents just won't accept that there could be "problem". Possibilities are what I am asking for here. I am a very strong woman probably because I've been around almost 60 years, but this has just killed my family's spirit, especially my dad who was in the stands in Mexico City feeling like "somebody."

I will say that I have more enjoyed than not being here for a year. This forum has hundreds of wonderful people. Even though I don't quite feel like this icon right now, I have to use it because it was my favorite: :rofl:

Please close this thread.

Donna

MichiganHusker
October 29th, 2007, 11:47 PM
And now for something completely different.....

Don't you just love the name Pokey Watson?

ALM
October 29th, 2007, 11:53 PM
I thought the same thing when I was looking at those meet results. Her real first name was Lillian. I did a search and found this article about her:

http://www.almanacnews.com/morgue/2004/2004_08_25.poky.shtml

Anna Lea

MichiganHusker
October 30th, 2007, 12:16 AM
Great Article - so funny that the author's mother used to say "come along you Pokey Watson." I always thought Donna DeVerona was the youngest swimmer?

Regardless, I may have to name my next "child" after Pokey Watson (it will be the four legged kind that meows).

michaelmoore
October 30th, 2007, 01:44 AM
In the list of Olympians mentioned: the one who I have seen swim include

Gary Hall - both Sr and Jr
Anne Warner Cribbs
Debbie Meyer Webber
Graham Johnson (RSA)
Katrina Radke
Franz Mortensen (Denmark I think)
Suzie Jones-Roy
Shiela Taomina
Angel Martino

I have a list of people from the Worlds who said they competed in the Olympics. I think I better check it before releasing it.

michael

Rob Copeland
October 30th, 2007, 09:59 AM
Rob: I see you are threatening to ban me with your recent post. I'm sorry you take exception to my remarks about Gail. Could you please clarify where I have threatened to ban you? Please PM me so we can allow this thread to return to its original objective.

People have asked about the about reposting deleted items, I responded to Rich’s post not one yours by saying I’ll get in touch with the moderators “and see if they wish to reverse this decision and repost the items and ban the posters” You were not referenced by name or alias. To my knowledge we have not banned or suspended forum privileges for not violating your forum rules and guidelines. So assuming you haven’t violated any of our rules, I don’t see why you would feel threatened.

Yes, I personally do take exception with your remarks about Gail I find them hollow and churlish; and it is unfortunate that you have chosen this public forum to slap her down. Gail’s question on the forum (“What Olympics did you "qualify" for and what country?”) is valid and her request for supporting documentation is what any good historian should do. And I support the great Gail is doing for UMSM. However when I act as a forum administrator, I attempt to place my personal bias aside and do my best to take action fairly.

Glider
October 30th, 2007, 10:16 AM
Enough already. Please close this thread and take this discussion offline.:whiteflag:


Could you please clarify where I have threatened to ban you?

People have asked about the about reposting deleted items, I responded to Rich’s post not one yours by saying I’ll get in touch with the moderators “and see if they wish to reverse this decision and repost the items and ban the posters” You were not referenced by name or alias. To my knowledge we have not banned or suspended forum privileges for not violating your forum rules and guidelines. So assuming you haven’t violated any of our rules, I don’t see why you would feel threatened.

Yes, I personally do take exception with your remarks about Gail I find them hollow and churlish; and it is unfortunate that you have chosen this public forum to slap her down. Gail’s question on the forum (“What Olympics did you "qualify" for and what country?”) is valid and her request for supporting documentation is what any good historian should do. And I support the great Gail is doing for UMSM. However when I act as a forum administrator, I attempt to place my personal bias aside and do my best to take action fairly.

pwolf66
October 30th, 2007, 10:51 AM
I second that.

Paul

Paul Smith
October 30th, 2007, 11:00 AM
Sorry to disagree with Glider and others who feel that this thread has gone off track and want it closed down....but I VERY much disagree....this type of debate is extremally important.

As I posted earlier the sad fact is that we live in a worold/time/place where lying and cheating is rampant...in society as well as in sport...my gosh...and Asian badmiton team was DQ'd recently for steroid use....and as i mentioned before people are constantly misrepresenting themselves as former military hero's...and lets not even get started on resume fraud.

Donna....sorry but the fact remains that your credentials are in question and I'm sorry you see it as a personal attack...I really am not in your position and you are free to think/feel what you want but I really do think verification of things like this benefits all sides.

As for what Gail posted...lesson learned to the moderators on deleting public posts.

And last but not leastthe inflammed emotions about what people are writing/reading I would suggest to all parties that if you are REALLY serious about this stuff (and taking anything REALLY serious on public forums is a concern in and of itself)...I would suggest getting on the phone and having a REAL conversation....something of a lost art these days sadly!

aquageek
October 30th, 2007, 11:03 AM
I don't know what's up with Smith's lucidity these days but he's en feugo. I will also agree that a phone call is a good thing, except with the Smiths, where they are like a double barrel shotgun of pain via the phone lines.

SwimStud
October 30th, 2007, 11:07 AM
Sorry to disagree with Glider and others who feel that this thread has gone off track and want it closed down....but I VERY much disagree....this type of debate is extremally important.

As I posted earlier the sad fact is that we live in a worold/time/place where lying and cheating is rampant...in society as well as in sport...my gosh...and Asian badmiton team was DQ'd recently for steroid use....and as i mentioned before people are constantly misrepresenting themselves as former military hero's...and lets not even get started on resume fraud.

Donna....sorry but the fact remains that your credentials are in question and I'm sorry you see it as a personal attack...I really am not in your position and you are free to think/feel what you want but I really do think verification of things like this benefits all sides.

As for what Gail posted...lesson learned to the moderators on deleting public posts.

And last but not leastthe inflammed emotions about what people are writing/reading I would suggest to all parties that if you are REALLY serious about this stuff (and taking anything REALLY serious on public forums is a concern in and of itself)...I would suggest getting on the phone and having a REAL conversation....something of a lost art these days sadly!

I agree with you Paul as long as we're debating and not inflaming, then like you said some real interaction may work wonders.

Paul Smith
October 30th, 2007, 11:34 AM
I agree with you Paul as long as we're debating and not inflaming, then like you said some real interaction may work wonders.

Stud.....there should always be a little "imflamation" just to keep it fun.

Geek...wait till Austin when JS & I take you dow "live" and his favorite Taqueria!

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 12:34 PM
There's a lot of misinformation here, and it hasn't done anything to clarify the situation. It's frustrating, but there's nothing more frustrating than being told to look for things that aren't there. Repeatedly.

My personal wild goose chase spanned a whole decade of history and included rankings, results, record progressions, and English Channel swimming. Given the scope of the search and the number of questions involved, suggesting that someone was omitted or removed is to suggest an entire generation of elite competitive and international open water history is wrong. That theory doesn’t hold much water.

The Fortress
October 30th, 2007, 12:37 PM
Stud.....there should always be a little "imflamation" just to keep it fun.

Geek...wait till Austin when JS & I take you dow "live" and his favorite Taqueria!

All right, you old has been!

I pm'd Rob, post #156. Now, having taken "home" the flamey stuff, I am going to evict it.

As Paul said, I think the debate over credentials is fine, as long as we move on from the deleted bits and name calling and and focus on the here and now. I prefer that topic to the celebrity swimmer adulation. Although I'm always happy to admire a job/swim/workout well done, whoever is doing it. Met Glenn Mills this weekend. He did a great job and is in prime comeback mode.

Paul Smith
October 30th, 2007, 12:51 PM
Fort....actually I'm a current "never was" vs. "has been"!

With Sam's help I'm committed to get Bill Barrett into competition again...Team AZ is shaping up to be VERY tough next May!

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 01:16 PM
In the list of Olympians mentioned: the one who I have seen swim include...

What a cool idea, keeping track of the Olympians you've seen swim. I love it! I keep a list of the states I've visited for swimming events, but hadn't considered a list of Olympian sightings.

After thinking about this idea for some time, I realized just how fortunate I've been. My list would need to have multiple categories, such as Olympians I've had dinner with, Olympians who raised a glass with me, and Olympians who stayed in my guest room.

It'd make a pretty decent book.

:wine:

Frank Thompson
October 30th, 2007, 01:27 PM
Comments for Gail...

There do seem to be some discrepancies between the 1968 Trials results and the USOC listing of athletes (http://www.usoc.org/13220.htm).

The 1968 Trials results show:

MEN'S 100 BREASTSTROKE FINALS
Donald McKenzie, 1:07.41
Kenneth Merten, 1:07.79
David Perkowski, 1:08.25
Brian Job, 1:08.36
Chester Jastremski, 1:08.55
Micael Dirksen, 1:08.76
Kenneth Doesburg, 1:08.77
Philip Long, 1:08.83

MEN'S 200 BREASTSTROKE FINALS
Brian Job, 2:28.95
Kenneth Merten, 2:29.97
Philip Long, 2:30.57
David Perkowski, 2:31.76
Chester Jastremski, 2:31.78
Wayne Anderson, 2:31.81
Michael Dirksen, 2:32.02
Kenneth Doesburg, 2:32.30


The USOC web site (http://www.usoc.org/13220.htm) lists these athletes as follows:

Donald McKenzie: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Gold Medal

Kenneth Merten: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Backstroke Individual - Eliminated; 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Eliminated (my comment: he didn't swim backstroke at Trials; do they mean breaststroke?)

David Perkowski: 1968 Swimming 100 Meter Backstroke Individual - Eliminated (my comment: he didn't swim backstroke at Trials; do they mean breaststroke?)

Brian Job: 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - Bronze Medal

Chester Jastremski: 1968 Swimming Swimming Individual - Did Not Compete

Philip Long: 1968 Swimming 200 Meter Breaststroke Individual - 7th

-----------------------

Another odd thing... The ISHOF biography of Chester Jastremski (http://www.ishof.org/honorees/77/77cjastremski.html) says,

"...in 1968 he allowed too little time for his comeback as he made alternate in the Trials and actually swam .02 seconds faster at the Olympics than the winning time when allowed to swim the heats for the U.S. Medley Relay Team..."

-

Ann Lea:

That information about Ken Merten and David Perkowski is incorrect. They both swam breaststroke at the Olympic Trails and in the Olympics. They do however list the correct information on the 100 and 200 Backstroke. At the 1968 Olympics, the USA in both events went 2-3-4, with Roland Matthes winning both events and again doing the same thing in 1972. In 1968, in the 100 Back, Charlie Hickox was 2nd, Ronnie Mills was 3rd, and Larry Barbiere was 4th. In the 200 Back, it was Mitch Ivey 2nd, Jack Horsley 3rd, and Gary Hall 4th.

In the old days, they used to take alternates to the Olympics if there event involved a Relay slot. This is why Chet Jastremski was chosen because he had the next place up the slot in breastroke. Even though he was 5th at the Olympic Trials, the top 3 go and Brian Job was already going in the 200, so he would swam as an alternate on the relay if the other three failed to make top 8 or there times were not satisfactory with the coaches. With this meet being at altitude some swimmers were not adjusted to it as well as others compared to when they swim at sea level. Sometimes there were swim offs with the certain members of the team to determine who would swim in the prelims. I am not sure if this happen here but it did use to happen when the individual events were not on the program.

Ken Merten went a 1:10.6 and failed to qualify for the semi finals. David Perkowski made the semi finals with a 1:09.50 but did not make the final when he did a 1:09.0 and got 9th place. Ian Obrien from Australia got the 8th place spot with the identical time and I don't know if they had a swim off or they when to the Ritter touch place machine to determine who would be in the final. Because of this swim, the coaches used Chet in the prelims of the Relay.

In the prelims of the Relay, Chet split 1:09.30 and that was a far cry from what Donald McKenize did in the individual event when he won the gold medal at 1:07.7 and he swam a split of 1:07.4 in the gold medal 400 Medley Relay with Hickox, Russell, and Walsh and they won by over 2.5 seconds and set the World Record.

Usually if you say you are an alternate for the Olympic Team that means you placed 4th at the Olympic Trials selection meet. Bob Thomas who swim masters sometimes and is the Coach of Ball State Universlty had a sister who was an alternate on the 1968 Olympic team because she took 4th place in the 400 IM at the Olympic Trials. In 1984, when only two swimmers would make the team per individual event, then the 3rd place finisher would be considered the alternate and would swim if someone would scratch the event and not swim it in the Olympics. Bryce Hunt was an alternate in the 200 Back at the 2004 Olympic Trials but because Michael Phelps decided to not swim the event, he moved up a slot to make the Olympic Team. That is how the word alternate is used in Olympic team selection.

http://www.bsu.edu/alumni/march2006/sportsfeature/

SwimStud
October 30th, 2007, 01:28 PM
My list would need to have multiple categories, such as Olympians I've had dinner with, Olympians who raised a glass with me, and Olympians who stayed in my guest room.

It'd make a pretty decent book.

:wine:

YOUR guest house? Is this like a B&B at the seaside? Or are you like that guy from Magnum PI with a sprawling estate?

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 01:41 PM
Bob Thomas who swim masters sometimes and is the Coach of Ball State Universlty had a sister who was an alternate on the 1968 Olympic team because she took 4th place in the 400 IM at the Olympic Trials.

Kathy Thomas, NVAC, 5:15.62. She placed fourth behind Claudia Kolb of Santa Clara (5:04.62), Susan Pedersen of Arden Hills (5:10.53) and Lynn Vidali of Santa Clara (5:12.48). The seventh place finisher in that race was Cathy Jamison of Santa Clara (5:19.24), who made the '68 team in the 200 breaststroke (2nd place at Trials, 2:42.53). She is now better known as Cathy Imwalle of Oregon Masters, and has been an individual USMS All-American four times since 2000.

:bouncing:


YOUR guest house? Is this like a B&B at the seaside? Or are you like that guy from Magnum PI with a sprawling estate?

It's just a guest room. LOL.

SwimStud
October 30th, 2007, 01:44 PM
It's just a guest room. LOL.

Please, this is no time for modesty!

:bump:

quicksilver
October 30th, 2007, 01:53 PM
When the space shuttle goes up...do they tell the guys in the back seat..."You're not astronauts. Only the guys at the control qualify."
Meanwhile they're all wearing the same suit...have the same patch on their sleeves...and are all going to the same destination.


Whether or not Donna's proof of her participation is found acceptable is another story. But if she wore the same warm-up suit... with the same USA patch...and sat on the same deck with the team. ...I want to believe that she was an Olympian.


Having communicated with her directly, ...she's a great lady...and it's too bad to see her leave our little on-line community.
No one can deny that she's an inspiration. You don't need your name on a piece of paper for proof of that.

geochuck
October 30th, 2007, 02:28 PM
Anna Lea

Diana Nyad came along near the end of my marathon swimming career. She raced in about 6 of my last races. She was a very good swimmer, I have not read her book but now that you mention it I will.

A small note here for Quiksilver yes I knew her and we had some very good conversations before each of her races and I did give her some tips about marathon swimming.


George,

Did you ever read Diana Nyad's book, "Other Shores," about the marathon swimming circuit? I read it a long time ago and thought that it was a great book. I should read it again.

Anna Lea

knelson
October 30th, 2007, 02:36 PM
But if she wore the same warm-up suit... with the same USA patch...and sat on the same deck with the team. ...I want to believe that she was an Olympian.

I think most of us would agree with this. But I certainly understand that these claims need to be verified. It's just too bad we don't have another '68 Olympian on here who could say "oh yeah, I remember her." I wonder if Gail Roper or Bill or anybody contacted any other '68 Olympians to help with the verification?

geochuck
October 30th, 2007, 02:38 PM
Just wondered why is it important to even have a list of Olympian Masters and who really cares.

It would be a list I would not want to be on.

The other list I don't want to be on is the obituary list.

knelson
October 30th, 2007, 02:43 PM
It would be a list I would not want to be on.

Why wouldn't you want to be on it? I don't get it. Aren't you proud of your status as an Olympian?

scyfreestyler
October 30th, 2007, 02:45 PM
Just wondered why is it important to even have a list of Olympian Masters and who really cares.

It would be a list I would not want to be on.

The other list I don't want to be on is the obituary list.

Really George? People down here are dying to get on that list.


As I have said before, who cares about this stupid list anyhow? I guess it's important to those who competed but who else is going to look at it and for what reason? Perhaps once the list is complete people can get back to some more important things, like changing the air in their tires, straightening their stereo wires, or counting the stars in the sky, etc..

ALM
October 30th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Diana Nyad came along near the end of my marathon swimming career. She raced in about 6 of my last races. She was a very good swimmer, I have not read her book but now that you mention it I will.

George,

Her book is out of print but you can find used copies. I bought one on www.abebooks.com - I just saw some on there for under $5.00. Amazon is another site that has used books. The title is "Other Shores", by Diana Nyad, ISBN #0394501756.

Anna Lea

knelson
October 30th, 2007, 03:01 PM
As I have said before, who cares about this stupid list anyhow? I guess it's important to those who competed but who else is going to look at it and for what reason?

I'd be interested in it. I would think anyone interested in the history of the sport would also be interested in such a list.

Are you interested in the USMS Top Ten list? Are you interested in World Records? It seems like if you're interested in anything like this you'd also be interested in a list of masters swimmers who have also participated in The Olympics.

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Please, this is no time for modesty! :bump:

LOL, the room is only 10’ x 14’ – but I am in the process of refurnishing it for my mother’s visit over Thanksgiving. Any Olympians who stay here in the future should find it comfortable. Non-Olympians are welcome, too, but we’re already booked full for LC Nationals next summer.


...she's an inspiration. You don't need your name on a piece of paper for proof of that.

You're right, although having your name on a piece of paper - in this case a massive paper trail leading nowhere – does help establish credibility.


Just wondered why is it important to even have a list of Olympian Masters and who really cares.

It is useful for press purposes, and will also be useful for fact checking once it’s in a place where we can easily find it.

scyfreestyler
October 30th, 2007, 03:13 PM
I'd be interested in it. I would think anyone interested in the history of the sport would also be interested in such a list.

Are you interested in the USMS Top Ten list? Are you interested in World Records? It seems like if you're interested in anything like this you'd also be interested in a list of masters swimmers who have also participated in The Olympics.

Well, I am not terribly interested in the history of the sport. To each his/her own.

geochuck
October 30th, 2007, 03:15 PM
Knelson

Now I only think of the drugs taken by Olympians.
I do not want to be known as a "Has Been".

I was happy when they tore down the pool in Melbourne. I remember the day well, when I ran into the wall head on. It was my chance and it was blown away in a fraction of a second. I really thought I would win that race.

I was disgusted and after that I only raced for my club and played waterpolo. I made other international teams because I was swimming for my club and won the events, but I never trained with a goal to win at that level again.

When I was 30 I decided to swim a Marathon Swim and the desire finally came back.


Why wouldn't you want to be on it? I don't get it. Aren't you proud of your status as an Olympian?

Gail Roper
October 30th, 2007, 03:26 PM
Jane Swaggerty Hill was contacted twice about Donna's credentials. Jane stated that Donna was not on the team with her, not at the trials, not at the Nationals and not at the Santa Clara Swim Club. Jane has never heard of her.

Frank Thompson
October 30th, 2007, 03:29 PM
You're right, although having your name on a piece of paper - in this case a massive paper trail leading nowhere – does help establish credibility.

It is useful for press purposes, and will also be useful for fact checking once it’s in a place where we can easily find it.

We have been discussing this for the last 5 days and there has not been any evidence given here to substantiate this claim. No one is saying she is not an inspiration and a great lady. Its about being on the 1968 Olympic team as an alternate in the 100 meter Back and swimming this event at the Olympic Trials to be able to qualify to swim in the event in the 1968 Olympics.

I find it very hard to believe that every website that has been mentioned here (USOC) (USA Swimming) (Swimming World Magazine) (International Swimming Hall of Fame) could make the same error about this swimmer not being listed in any of the documentation about Olympians.

The bottom line is until there is such proof or evidence of this, then the swimmers name does not belong on the list of Olympians that USMS keeps. If someone out there can substantiate otherwise and prove the USOC, USA Swimming, Swimming World Magazine, and ISHOF of there errors in omitting the swimmer in question, then they have to come up with evidence to the contrary, otherwise there is no way to substantiate the claim.

The Fortress
October 30th, 2007, 03:33 PM
You're right, although having your name on a piece of paper - in this case a massive paper trail leading nowhere – does help establish credibility.

Well said, Quicksilver. That was my impression as well.

Paperwork would indeed help. But it's a knotty legal question. Frank is right that, without verification, the name can't go on the list. That's a sensible. logical position. Yet, I think perhaps you need something more than existing paperwork, something completely definitive before using a word like imposter or fraud in public. But I'm sure Donna can work it out and decide how to proceed with whatever proof she does or doesn't have.

Kind of agree with Matt. I'm more interested in the here and now than in which masters were olympians many years ago. Although I do love watching big meets or the Olympics. I enjoy masters meets as well.

Slowswim
October 30th, 2007, 03:49 PM
Knelson
I do not want to be known as a "Has Been".


George:

To me a "has been" is some one who rests on their laurals and makes sure you know what they did. You are definately not in that category.

I for one believe we need heros and an Olympic medal presentation is much better than the posthumous Purple Heart.
:2cents:

Paul Smith
October 30th, 2007, 03:51 PM
Well, I am not terribly interested in the history of the sport. To each his/her own.

That's kind of sad...but to each their own.

I However tip my hat and to those that have achieved to me what is the one of the greatest accomplishment in sport...those that "show up" at Trials and make Top 2 (4 in relays) are worthy of having an asterick next to theri names (wether they want it or not) for the rest of their lives....and if they are competing in Masters "SWIMMING"...it would be in my opinion disgraceful of us (USMS) not to recognize them.

geochuck
October 30th, 2007, 03:51 PM
Please someone tell us she is. Many can be forgetful.

There are many swimmers who say they were Olympians and are not. I know 3 personally.

One a girl from Hamilton Ontario told every one she was an Olympic Swimmer and when I came on the scene she stopped talking about it. I know she did not go to the Olympics, but she did swim in our swim club. I did not tell her friends that she was not. It was her claim to fame, it was not so, but I will never tell.

Another was a brit who told everyone in our town he swam at the 1952 and1956 Olympics, he said he was Ron Roberts, he was not Ron Roberts the swimmer, but his name was Ron Roberts. I know the real Ron Roberts.

The other was a Hamilton Policeman who told everyone he was me. He had lots of dates with the nurses at the Hamilton General Hospital and I know for sure it was not me.

SwimStud
October 30th, 2007, 03:53 PM
The other was a Hamilton Policeman who told everyone he was me. He had lots of dates with the nurses at the Hamilton General Hospital and I know for sure it was not me.

That's George's story and his sticking to it! ;)

hehe teasing George, but this thread needs a joke...

scyfreestyler
October 30th, 2007, 03:54 PM
That's kind of sad...but to each their own.

.

How is that sad? Does everybody who swims need to study up on past Olympians to be worthy of donning a Speedo?

knelson
October 30th, 2007, 03:56 PM
One a girl from Hamilton Ontario told every one she was an Olympic Swimmer

Maybe she meant she swam in an Olympic-sized pool once :)

"No, I'm not an Olympian...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night."

geochuck
October 30th, 2007, 04:01 PM
Stud it was not funny to me at the time. The Chief of Police called me to his office and was telling me I should do the honourable thing and marry the nurse that this guy got pregnant.


That's George's story and his sticking to it! ;)

hehe teasing George, but this thread needs a joke...

Paul Smith
October 30th, 2007, 04:02 PM
How is that sad? Does everybody who swims need to study up on past Olympians to be worthy of donning a Speedo?

On this thread that would seem to be one of the key points...

But thanks for sharing....very insightful post.

SwimStud
October 30th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Stud it was not funny to me at the time. The Chief of Police called me to his office and was telling me I should do the honourable thing and marry the nurse that this guy got pregnant.

LOL I'm sure it was not funny at the time...

geochuck
October 30th, 2007, 04:14 PM
I hate to say this Gail but Jane could be wrong and I do not think you should mention this until you talk to everyone on the team. Every Olympic and International event where a Canadian was involved they gave a book to each member of the team listing their names when I competed.

The 1954 Empire games team, I have a picture of the whole swim team and half the people there I remember the other half you could ask me about them, and I could not say who they were.


Jane Swaggerty Hill was contacted twice about Donna's credentials. Jane stated that Donna was not on the team with her, not at the trials, not at the Nationals and not at the Santa Clara Swim Club. Jane has never heard of her.

scyfreestyler
October 30th, 2007, 04:19 PM
On this thread that would seem to be one of the key points...

But thanks for sharing....very insightful post.
Yes, about as insightful as declaring my lack of enthusiasm for swimming history as "sad". Next time there is a thread discussing the reasons why USMS membership might be decreasing, I'll try to remember to bump this thread up for everybody to peruse.

knelson
October 30th, 2007, 04:23 PM
Matt, I'm not sure I get your point. At least twice in this thread you've stated "who cares about the list?" It should be obvious that some people do care, regardless of whether or not you are one of them.

Slowswim
October 30th, 2007, 04:24 PM
There are many swimmers who say they were Olympians and are not. I know 3 personally.


Sorta related. There are websites for SF and SEALs that you can report "fakes" to. The group sends someone out to investigate and "deal" with the offender.

I think USMS should too. We could track these 3 down and throw water balloons at them!:rofl:
</IMG>

Gail Roper
October 30th, 2007, 04:26 PM
I also consulted the USOC 1968 Olympic book, published after the Games. I also consulted the USOC data base. No mention of her name either place.
Jane Swaggerty Hill was an competitor in the 100 back and the Bronze medalist at Mexico City. I think she would have remembered the swimmers in her event. She said anyone could check with her.
Next year the Olympic trials will be held in Omaha and the 1948 and 1968 teams will be honored, I shall ask all members there too. If anyone lives in the area, the trials are the most exciting swim meet held in this country and I urge you to attend.

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 04:31 PM
Does everybody who swims need to study up on past Olympians to be worthy of donning a Speedo?

Certainly not, but it makes for interesting conversation. :cane:

Last week, I purchased a vintage swimming magazine on eBay for $8.99. It's called "Get in the Swim" with Eleanor Holm and Johnny Weissmuller, published in 1940. When I opened up the package the other day, my heart started to race. The magazine is signed on page one by both Holm and Weissmuller!!

Holm's signature appears to be done in fountain pen, and Weissmuller's signature looks more like ballpoint pen. Can't wait to get those authenticated!! I found other Weissmuller autographs online, and he had a way of curling his W's and looping his double-L's that is consistent with the one I have. I also found an Eleanor Holm autograph online and it looked like a match with the tall, elegant, curvy script and closed O's. I wonder what something like that is worth? More than $8.99 for sure!!

:groovy:

Rob Copeland
October 30th, 2007, 04:32 PM
I hate to say this Gail but Jane could be wrongYes, Jane could have forgotten it was almost 40 years ago.

But as others have pointed out, this has definitely piqued the interest and research juices of many of us.

Including me… In rooting around on the USA Swimming web site, I ran across another listing of US Olympians that included the athletes, alternates, coaches, trainers, committee members and others. A link is attached. I don’t know what name Donna swam under in ’68, but hopefully it is on this list. I would love to help bring this to closure.

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/225f43ba-bec7-402d-aa0b-5d673e00e6fc/alltime_olympians.pdf

But the bigger question…so George did you do the honorable thing and marry Nurse Chuckie?

scyfreestyler
October 30th, 2007, 04:36 PM
Matt, I'm not sure I get your point. At least twice in this thread you've stated "who cares about the list?" It should be obvious that some people do care, regardless of whether or not you are one of them.

Obviously people care, hence the length and intensity of this thread. I understand and accept that. Surely for those who competed it is a worthy cause. More recently, what I don't accept is that it is somehow sad for a swimmer to not be interested in the sports history..in this case, THE list.

To close, I apologize for belittling something that is obviously quite important to some of you.

The Fortress
October 30th, 2007, 04:37 PM
But the bigger question…so George did you do the honorable thing and marry Nurse Chuckie?

:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Of course he did!

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 04:38 PM
I apologize for belittling something that is obviously quite important to some of you.

That's OK, I did the same thing in the "Club Scoring" thread. Sorry guys!

Noodles Romanoff
October 30th, 2007, 04:40 PM
Well, I am not terribly interested in the history of the sport. To each his/her own. I’m sure the feeling is mutual; I assume swimming is not terribly interested in the history of you. :mooning::mooning::cane::cry:

geochuck
October 30th, 2007, 04:46 PM
:lmao::lmao::lmao::lmao:

Of course he did!

Chuckie was not a nurse but she has cared for me for over 50 years.

scyfreestyler
October 30th, 2007, 04:53 PM
I’m sure the feeling is mutual; I assume swimming is not terribly interested in the history of you. :mooning::mooning::cane::cry:


Thanks for your comments, as worthless as they might be. :rolleyes:

ALM
October 30th, 2007, 04:55 PM
Including me… In rooting around on the USA Swimming web site, I ran across another listing of US Olympians that included the athletes, alternates, coaches, trainers, committee members and others. A link is attached. I don’t know what name Donna swam under in ’68, but hopefully it is on this list. I would love to help bring this to closure.

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/225f43ba-bec7-402d-aa0b-5d673e00e6fc/alltime_olympians.pdf



This list designates certain swimmers (usually relay) as "Alternate" with the abbreviation "Alt."

A search of the document finds 57 occurrences of the word "Alt." None of these appear to be the swimmer in question.

In addition:

A search on "Dashelle" turns up 0 occurrences.
A search on "Stein" turns up 3 occurrences: Epstein, Steinseifer, and Steinburg.
A search on "Carter" turns up 1 occurrence: Keith Eyre Carter, 1948.
Searches on "Schillig", "Shillig", "Schilling", and "Shillig" turn up 0 occurrences.

Anna Lea

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 05:00 PM
Whoa, I'm just learning about Eleanor Holm, and it looks like she was my kinda gal!

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/25/1077676830498.html?from=storyrhs

A Johnny Weissmuller and Maureen O'Sullivan autographed slip of paper recently sold on eBay for $650. eBay Item number: 290167651359 - closed Oct. 14th. O'Sullivan was Tarzan's "Jane" in six movies.

According to Wikipedia, Holm performed with Weissmuller at the 1939 New York World's Fair, where she did 39 shows a week at Rose's "Aquacade". Later, she performed with Buster Crabbe.

Anyone out there who knows about memorabilia and autographs? How would a magazine signed by Weissmuller and Eleanor Holm compare in value to the Weismuller / O'Sullivan autograph?

quicksilver
October 30th, 2007, 05:15 PM
Whoa, I'm just learning about Eleanor Holm, and it looks like she was my kinda gal!




She was also, ...sang, often dressed in a bathing suit, cowboy hat and high heels. She had partied in Hollywood and played bit parts in movies.
During the crossing, she was invited by the shipping line to a party in the first-class area, where she drank through the night with journalists.




This bears all the hallmarks of a Britney Spears sighting.

Gail Roper
October 30th, 2007, 05:45 PM
For those of you interested in Swimming History..........go to Youtube and search for "Broad Ripple Pool". There is a video there of the 1952 Women's Olympic Trials and the 1953 Mens Nationals. Interesting to see Ford Konno swim with such a beautiful stroke and check out the lane lines!

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 06:26 PM
For those of you interested in Swimming History..........go to Youtube and search for "Broad Ripple Pool". There is a video there of the 1952 Women's Olympic Trials and the 1953 Mens Nationals. Interesting to see Ford Konno swim with such a beautiful stroke and check out the lane lines!

That is awesome! I'm really impressed with the work ISHOF is doiing these days.

The video's a little rough, but if I had to guess I'd say you're the one in the front row during the plane boarding shot, just behind the "out" in Lookout Helsinki. Am I right? If not, which one are you?

:applaud:

Gail Roper
October 30th, 2007, 06:57 PM
No, that is Judy Cornell above the sign. I'm found on the ladder where is says "Here is a picture of the team before they left for Helsinki." I have bare shoulders and thin dress straps, Jody Alderson is behind me in a black jacket. Also, where Mary Freeman is sitting on the deck with black marks under her eyes, I'm sitting in back of her......................totallly scared before my event.
That's Betsy Jordan, San Diego Masters, giving out the medals to the men's backstroke when she was about 16.

jim clemmons
October 30th, 2007, 06:57 PM
I wonder what something like that is worth? More than $8.99 for sure!!

:groovy:

I'll give you ten bucks for it Bill without the authentication even. And we'll call it a "small" (not medium or large) profit!

Swimmer Bill
October 30th, 2007, 07:31 PM
I'll give you ten bucks for it Bill without the authentication even. And we'll call it a "small" (not medium or large) profit!

meh, I think I'll hold on to it. A lot of swimmers have this wild streak, and it's a hoot to trace it back to Eleanor Holm!

geochuck
October 31st, 2007, 09:26 AM
Gail - Olympic Woes I had two - 1952 I was in bed sick, not able to move for six weeks before the trials. I was out of bed a couple of weeks and along came the trials. I was a distance swimmer 440 and one mile swimmer at the time and hoping to qualify to swim the 400m and 1500m at Helsinki. My times indicated I would qualify for sure. But in my weakened state I went unconcious at the 200 mark during the 440 trial and was pulled out of the water by a lifeguard. So I did not see you in Helsinki.

In 1956 the head on hit of the wall ended my hope for a win in the 100m free.

I have read about your Olympic Woes and feel for you.

I remember the USA teams, our coach said the USA girls team all belonged in the movies. Shelley Mann was a favorite of mine.

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 09:40 AM
wrong thread hehe

Frank Thompson
October 31st, 2007, 10:55 AM
This list designates certain swimmers (usually relay) as "Alternate" with the abbreviation "Alt."

A search of the document finds 57 occurrences of the word "Alt." None of these appear to be the swimmer in question.

In addition:

A search on "Dashelle" turns up 0 occurrences.
A search on "Stein" turns up 3 occurrences: Epstein, Steinseifer, and Steinburg.
A search on "Carter" turns up 1 occurrence: Keith Eyre Carter, 1948.
Searches on "Schillig", "Shillig", "Schilling", and "Shillig" turn up 0 occurrences.

Anna Lea

Ok. I think I found something. Being the swimming detective that I am I searched thru my vaults of swimming memorabilia and did some investigating and found something interesting in the July 1965 issue of Swimming World. That is the issue that has Thompson Mann on the cover and he used to have the longest time period of any USMS record in the 50 Back. The issue was the one where Donna de Varona announced her retirement from amateur competitive swimming when she just turned 18.

On page 18 of the magazine they talk about a meet in Fort Worth, Texas. In the 5th paragraph it says this "Arlington Swim Club's Donna Martin produced three wins, Donna took the 15-17 200 yd. individual medley, 2:36.7, 100 yd. backstroke, 1:10.7, and the open 200 yd. backstroke, 2:34.4.

I am wondering if this is the same person as Donna Dunn. I know she said she swam in Arlington and the age of this swimmer in the article is very close to the age that Donna is now. So if this is true, then we have source of paperwork that the swimmer swam during this time period. However, it does not authenticate that she swam in the Olympic Trials or the Olympics.

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 11:15 AM
On page 18 of the magazine they talk about a meet in Fort Worth, Texas. In the 5th paragraph it says this "Arlington Swim Club's Donna Martin produced three wins, Donna took the 15-17 200 yd. individual medley, 2:36.7, 100 yd. backstroke, 1:10.7, and the open 200 yd. backstroke, 2:34.4.

I am wondering if this is the same person as Donna Donn. I know she said she swam in Arlington and the age of this swimmer in the article is very close to the age that Donna is now. So if this is true, then we have source of paperwork that the swimmer swam during this time period. However, it does not authenticate that she swam in the Olympic Trials or the Olympics.

*GASP* :eek:

The Fortress
October 31st, 2007, 11:19 AM
Ok. I think I found something. Being the swimming detective that I am I searched thru my vaults of swimming memorabilia and did some investigating and found something interesting in the July 1965 issue of Swimming World. That is the issue that has Thompson Mann on the cover and he used to have the longest time period of any USMS record in the 50 Back. The issue was the one where Donna de Varona announced her retirement from amateur competitive swimming when she just turned 18.

On page 18 of the magazine they talk about a meet in Fort Worth, Texas. In the 5th paragraph it says this "Arlington Swim Club's Donna Martin produced three wins, Donna took the 15-17 200 yd. individual medley, 2:36.7, 100 yd. backstroke, 1:10.7, and the open 200 yd. backstroke, 2:34.4.

I am wondering if this is the same person as Donna Donn. I know she said she swam in Arlington and the age of this swimmer in the article is very close to the age that Donna is now. So if this is true, then we have source of paperwork that the swimmer swam during this time period. However, it does not authenticate that she swam in the Olympic Trials or the Olympics.

Yes, I believe that was ONE of the names Donna competed under when young. Good detective work. Maybe more digging can produce more real info. Go Frank!

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 11:23 AM
Yes, I believe that was one of the names Donna competed under. Good detective work. Maybe more digging can produce more real info.

It would lend a little weight to Donna's stance too...at least be something to consider her voice...they look like very impressive times to me...

Swimmer Bill
October 31st, 2007, 11:38 AM
Skip, you're amazing!

I feel much better knowing there's a matching record. Up to this point, nothing had been found to verify any participation in the 60's. While you're poking around, can you find the "world" record set at the Indoor Nationals in either 1967 or 68? The time was supposed to be a 1:01.63. Also, can you find a record of an English Channel Swim?

The Fortress
October 31st, 2007, 11:41 AM
Skip, you're amazing!

I feel much better knowing there's a matching record. Up to this point, nothing had been found to verify any participation in the 60's. While you're poking around, can you find the "world" record set at the Indoor Nationals in either 1967 or 68? The time was supposed to be a 1:01.63. Also, can you find a record of an English Channel Swim?

This sarcasm aside, I'd love to fly down to Texas and do a search through the micro-fiche of all the newspapers.

Why don't we just stick to verifying olympic alternate status, Bill, since that is what Gail is avidly investigating and what is at issue.

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 11:42 AM
Skip, you're amazing!

I feel much better knowing there's a matching record. Up to this point, nothing had been found to verify any participation in the 60's. While you're poking around, can you find the "world" record set at the Indoor Nationals in either 1967 or 68? The time was supposed to be a 1:01.63. Also, can you find a record of an English Channel Swim?


With any luck Frank will find the definitive goods and you can invite a new friend to your guest room!

The Fortress
October 31st, 2007, 11:43 AM
With any luck Frank will find the definitive goods and you can invite a new friend to your guest room!


Guest room? But I've got a real ACTUAL guest cottage. I think she should come there.

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 11:47 AM
This sarcasm aside, I'd love to fly down to Texas and do a search through the micro-fiche of all the newspapers.

Why don't we just stick to verifying olympic alternate status, Bill, since that is what Gail is avidly investigating and what is at issue.


Agreed Fort. My comment was made in sincerity that at least a friend has something to show that her story may be viable. While still not proof, it gives a little credence, you'd think maturity and respect would win out among the rolemodels at USMS.

I'd really let rip but I don't want to get banned for fragging the officer's mess...

Swimmer Bill
October 31st, 2007, 11:53 AM
Why don't we just stick to verifying olympic alternate status

Because it's good to know what the swimmer did accomplish.

Sorry if any of this appears sarcastic - not intended. The search had literally evolved into a search for a single matching reference, anywhere. And I am relieved that Frank found one.

The Fortress
October 31st, 2007, 11:57 AM
Sorry if any of this appears sarcastic - not intended. The search had literally evolved into a search for a single matching reference, anywhere. And I am relieved that Frank found one.

Well, I for one have noted sarcasm and other covert oddities.

But no matter. I believe there is other data. I'm not convinced it must all live in an official USA database to be deemed worthy. Things do go missing, after all. Who knows?

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 11:58 AM
Well, I for one have noted sarcasm and other covert oddities.

But no matter. I believe there is other data. I'm not convinced it must all live in an official USA database to be deemed worthy. Things do go missing, after all. Who knows?

Maybe Jimmy Hoffa is in the database...:bump:

The Fortress
October 31st, 2007, 11:59 AM
Maybe Jimmy Hoffa is in the database...:bump:

No doubt. I'm in the database but under a changed/altered/prior incarnation. :eek: lol.

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 12:00 PM
No doubt. I'm in the database but under a changed/altered/prior name. lol.

Wait...I had that wrong. Maybe Jimmy Hoffa had the official records on him when he went missing...
:lolup:

knelson
October 31st, 2007, 12:27 PM
...they look like very impressive times to me...

Good times, but not Olympic caliber times. Remember these are yards times, not meters. Kaye Hall of Tacoma Swim Club swam a sub 1:00 SCY 100 back in 1967. However, the results Skip found are from 1965, so she would have had three years to improve. At least we now have some kind of data. It's a good start!

Bill: In the record progression for the 100 SCY back, I do see that Kendis Moore set a new record, presumably at Spring Nats in 1967, with a 1:01.30. That time is darn close to the 1:01.63 you cited. See:
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/21a328ad-a8aa-4832-b82e-4bb8c0ad3285/New%20In-depth%20SCY%20women.pdf

It's too bad USA Swimming doesn't have all the results from past Nationals on their web site, but these in-depth record histories sure are interesting.

I know if you sign up for Swimming World's web access you can download pdf's of old magazines. Does anyone know how far back their back issues go?

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 12:31 PM
Good times, but not Olympic caliber times. Remember these are yards times, not meters. Kaye Hall of Tacoma Swim Club swam a sub 1:00 SCY 100 back in 1967. However, the results Skip found are from 1965, so she would have had three years to improve. At least we now have some kind of data. It's a good start!

Bill: In the record progression for the 100 SCY back, I do see that Kendis Moore set a new record, presumably at Spring Nats in 1967, with a 1:01.30. That time is darn close to the 1:01.63 you cited. See:
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/21a328ad-a8aa-4832-b82e-4bb8c0ad3285/New%20In-depth%20SCY%20women.pdf

It's too bad USA Swimming doesn't have all the results from past Nationals on their web site, but these in-depth record histories sure are interesting.

I know if you sign up for Swimming World's web access you can download pdf's of old magazines. Does anyone know how far back their back issues go?

Yes Kirk, it means she's on the map. More than we had yesterday...

Swimmer Bill
October 31st, 2007, 12:46 PM
I know if you sign up for Swimming World's web access you can download pdf's of old magazines. Does anyone know how far back their back issues go?

Volume 1, Number 1, January 1960.

ALM
October 31st, 2007, 01:01 PM
I have the page that Skip found, in PDF format. The forum software won't let me attach it because it exceeds the max size (it's 101kb; max size is 97kb). If anyone wants to see it, send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll send it to you.

Anna Lea

ALM
October 31st, 2007, 01:09 PM
Found another one, Page 16 from Swimming World, April 1966. It is attached.

Anna Lea

Frank Thompson
October 31st, 2007, 02:16 PM
[QUOTE=knelson;112692]Good times, but not Olympic caliber times. Remember these are yards times, not meters. Kaye Hall of Tacoma Swim Club swam a sub 1:00 SCY 100 back in 1967. However, the results Skip found are from 1965, so she would have had three years to improve. At least we now have some kind of data. It's a good start!

Bill: In the record progression for the 100 SCY back, I do see that Kendis Moore set a new record, presumably at Spring Nats in 1967, with a 1:01.30. That time is darn close to the 1:01.63 you cited. See:
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Documents/21a328ad-a8aa-4832-b82e-4bb8c0ad3285/New%20In-depth%20SCY%20women.pdf

It's too bad USA Swimming doesn't have all the results from past Nationals on their web site, but these in-depth record histories sure are interesting.

Kirk:

The people over at USA Swimming are working on that and it will be up on there website soon. They have also started the Top 16 project and they have a lot of that completed over there now but have a ways to go to capture all of the years since 1960 when the USA Age Group Swimming program really took off.

You can find every AAU/USS/USA Nationals on the Swimming World website in the pdf format if you are a premium member. They started in 1960 and until recently had all off the National Championship results in the back of the magazine. I believe they went to abbreviated results in about the last 7 years because you can find them on many different websites like USA Swimming, Swimming World, and the Omega Timing website if there equipment was used.

The only other place that you can find this is in the Annual AAU Swimming, Diving, Synchro, and Water Polo guides that used to come out and had the rule book, officers, results of all National Championships for every sport. They stopped publishing them in 1980 when all sports became there own governing bodies. They would always report the year before in the annual book. Before 1960, this is the only place that you can find AAU National Championships that are published that I know of.

Rob Copeland
October 31st, 2007, 02:23 PM
Also, can you find a record of an English Channel Swim?The current record or one from bygone days?

The Channel Swimming Association maintains the original official list of swims and records www.channelswimmingassociation.com

The Channel Swimming & Piloting Federation also maintains a list www.channelswimming.net

I didn’t see the current record Swimmer 6:57:50 by Petar Stoychev from Bulgaria listed on either site.

Swimmer Bill
October 31st, 2007, 02:37 PM
The current record or one from bygone days?

The Channel Swimming Association maintains the original official list of swims and records www.channelswimmingassociation.com

The Channel Swimming & Piloting Federation also maintains a list www.channelswimming.net

I didn’t see the current record Swimmer 6:57:50 by Petar Stoychev from Bulgaria listed on either site.

Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't referring to a record-breaking swim, just any swim recorded by the swimmer.

Frank Thompson
October 31st, 2007, 02:56 PM
Bill and Rob:

This website has every attempt of a solo crosssing that has ever been registered in the history of the event.

http://www.soloswims.com/CSA-E-F.htm#2002

As I went to CSA page I noticed a lot of names of masters swimmers , USMS forum members and Olympians. The #'s 624, 500, 337, 346, 275, 178, 603, and 470 are very familar names you will recognize. Rob is that you at #624 or an imposter.

Swimmer Bill
October 31st, 2007, 03:13 PM
#'s 330, 598, 630, 635, 675 & 701 also ring a bell...

But why isn't George Brunstad's name in there?????

SwimStud
October 31st, 2007, 03:15 PM
#'s 330, 598, 630, 635, 675 & 701 also ring a bell...

But why isn't George Brunstad's name in there?????

I crossed the Channel...

ALM
October 31st, 2007, 03:24 PM
One more page from Swimming World, August 1966, Page 39...

Anna Lea

The Fortress
October 31st, 2007, 03:24 PM
I have no recollection of the "subject study" saying she swam the english channel. Where did she say that on this forum, just for reference?

Yeah, I've crossed that channel a time or two myself. After all, I went to "LSE," right Stud?