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Sabretooth Tiger
August 16th, 2004, 12:52 PM
At the U.S. Trials there was one official in every lane looking at the turns, so now that we're in Athens, how does Kitajima get away with that dolphin kick on his turn? It seemed clear to me from the above water shot, then was confirmed with the underwater. Other breaststrokers care to weigh in?

Scansy
August 16th, 2004, 01:05 PM
This was briefly discussed on a different thread. I definately saw the dolphin kick off the turn and tjburk indicated that there may have been a dolphin kick off the start too! Either it was missed altogether or the judges thought it was not egregious enough to DQ him.

geochuck
August 16th, 2004, 01:13 PM
I'm sure the Japanese probably thought it was not a dolphin kick??? It is the breaks of the game.

George www.swimdownhill.com

valhallan
August 16th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Aaron Piersol and Jason Lezak made public statements that it was clearly cheating. The judges didn't really look for it, but they did after having seen it happen before. (NBC's web site has an article on it.)

swimr4life
August 16th, 2004, 02:17 PM
I saw the blatant dolphin kicks off the start and turn! I also saw it during the World Championships! How does he get away with it? My summer league officials would have DQ'd him for that! I'm with botterud! How could that official, watching only one lane, miss it? He clearly bent his knees! It is cheating! He should have been DQ'd. Hansen should have been first!

dcarson
August 16th, 2004, 02:34 PM
It was clear even in the prelims. Kitajima did a dolphin kick, as even Rowdy Gaines pointed it out on TV coverage. So, to see Kitajima do it again in finals was just unbelievable. However, I give Hansen a lot of credit for his professional answer when he stated he now needs to focus on preparing for the 200 instead of getting caught up thinking about the controversy.

swimr4life
August 16th, 2004, 02:47 PM
I'm very proud of Hansen. He seems like a great guy. I hope and pray he blasts Kitajima in the 200! Once a race is over, I don't think much can be done anyway.

tjburk
August 16th, 2004, 03:19 PM
Hi Beth!!! No, once the race is over there isn't even an appeal process, because it is based on a subjective point of view. What kills me is, not only did one official miss it (the start) but then a second official (turn) missed it as well! Blind in one eye and can't see out of the other!!!!!! I can possibly excuse the one at the start because of the bubbles form the splash, but the second..... come on, which swimmer was he/she watching!!!! Sorry for ranting, but this one was too obvious!!!! And absolute KUDOS to Mr Hansen on his biting of the tongue!! Shred him in the 200!!!!

Guvnah
August 16th, 2004, 03:26 PM
I expect the officials will be looking more closely for it now.

I also expect that we will NOT see even a hint of the dolphin kick in the 200.

And I expect Kitajima will not do as well in the 200 without the extra kick.

geochuck
August 16th, 2004, 03:39 PM
When you have a person judging, anything can happen. It always happens in the Olympics and there is not a thing you can do about it.

George www.swimdownhill.com

Rob Copeland
August 16th, 2004, 03:48 PM
Guvnah

Coaches and officials have been talking about Kitajima’s dolphin kick for years. I would bet that every official at the Olympics already knew about “the kick”, so I would expect to see him do the same thing in the 200.

Maybe the Olympics could hire our Masters officials from Long Course Nationals. They didn’t seem to have any problems with calling DQ’s. Unfortunately! … And, with apologies to tjburk and the rest of my relay for my 15.2 Meter underwater dolphin on the Medley Relay.

Tom Ellison
August 16th, 2004, 03:55 PM
They missed NOTHING...the judge saw it...he simply chose to look the other way....Heck, Hellen Keller and Stevie Wonder could have seen that dolphin kick BOTH on the start...AND...on the turn....

The guy got robbed.....and he wasn't even in the bank or standing behind the counter at 7-11....

tjburk
August 16th, 2004, 04:00 PM
Howdy Tom!!! Wish ya coulda been there this weekend!!!!! Yep they are both blind in one eye and can't see out of the other!

jdut
August 16th, 2004, 06:08 PM
I spent my swim this morning stewing about this issue, and
I think even the casual viewer could see THROUGH the water, even at the start. And, as someone said above, everyone KNOWS he does that kick - I had heard about it, but it sure was hard to watch that swim beat Hansen (he really was classy about it, though), when I think my high school swimmers would have been DQed for the same thing in a basic dual meet. It's too bad that this has been let go at this level!

Matt S
August 17th, 2004, 12:48 AM
Folks,

At the risk of being called a blasphemer...

Kitajima swam a 1:00.07 to win the finals.

Hansen set a new Olympic Record in the semis with a 1:00.01.

Both swimmers went substantially slower than their PR's--World Record times.

Brendan is a class act because he recognized that alleged illegal kick or no, he only had to swim a PR, or heck, even the same time he did the day before, to beat Kitajima. Didn't do it, so he offers no excuses, and focuses on the one thing he can control. Class.

As far as the rules are concerned, all this yammering about illegal dolphin kicks makes my poor freestyler and sometimes flyer head hurt. Let me ask one question: if he has done this before at major competitions, if people have squawked about this before loud enough for even the biggest dunce in officiating to know to look out for it, if there is one stroke judge per lane, is this all a big conspiracy, or do the critics merely misunderstand the rules? The officials in your summer rec league, ooh, I'm sure they are more qualified than the folks working the Olympic Games.

Shut up and swim, and leave the grousing about officiating to figure scamming, er... skating and gymnastics. Oh wait a minute, scratch gymnastics. There has been precious little bitching about marks these Games, so I guess swimming must be more subjective than gymnastics. (Let me pull my tongue out of my cheek, there, that's better.)

Obviously not, but we could all try acting like rational adults in stead of out of control soccer parents.

Matt

tjburk
August 17th, 2004, 01:34 AM
Matt, first a PR for Hansen would have been a time below 59.30 (his own world record) second, did you see the race? I watched it from beginning to end...he cheated...without the dolphin kick he would have lost! I would suggest watching the tape before opening your trap and referring to us as "out of control soccer parents" Anyone with at least one eyeball in their head could see he cheated! Next!

kiwi surfer
August 17th, 2004, 02:19 AM
I wonder what the response from Americans would have been if the kick had been on the other foot so to speak. As a neutral observer it sounds suspiciously like sour grapes to me. In most elite sports competitors will push the rules as far as they can and then some more. It's up to the umpire, referee etc to make the call. In this case I suspect the kick was observed but the official chose not to act. Get over it and enjoy the rest of the swimming.

Sam Perry
August 17th, 2004, 02:38 AM
He didn't cheat. The judges missed the call plain and simple. Sour grapes, don't think so and I would hope if one of our athletes did an illegal move that it would be called. This is suppose to be a fair competition it is not Kitajima's fault if the judges suck!

Gareth Eckley
August 17th, 2004, 02:48 AM
I saw the dolphin kick and i was the first to point it out on this forum at the world championships when katijama did it there.

Even the British commentators saw it, and their swimming knowledge is quite poor.

Yes, he got away with it, twice here and also 2 years ago. It is very unfair to other swimmers.

You do have to be a brave official to call it, but that is there job.


:(

Toni
August 17th, 2004, 03:29 AM
These things happen in every sport; no umpire or referee is 100% perfect. I'm sure that they've realised their mistake - as long as they learn from this and try to do better next time - then that's fine.

kiwi surfer
August 17th, 2004, 05:55 AM
If as claimed Kitajima has been doing this for several years can someone tell me how many times he's been D/Q. If he hasn't been why not ? Otherwise I'd suggest he's not only the fastest breaststroker but also the smartest.

emmett
August 17th, 2004, 07:17 AM
In baseball, the rule book is explicit about where the strike zone is. Yet, whether a specific pitch in a specific baseball game is a "strike" or a "ball" is decided by the ump. Each ump has a slightly different size to what he calls as the strike zone. A pitcher, through trial and error searches out the edges of each umps strike zone. Pitches that are consisently called "strikes" are defacto "legal" pitches that the pitcher can (and probably should), with clear conscience, throw during the game.

Similarly, while the swimming rule book is explicit about what is and is not allowed, whether or not a specific motion a swimmer executes in a specific competition is legal or illegal is decided by the officials. If, repeatedly during international competition, under close scrutiny, with common knowledge on the part of the officials that he does this, Kitajima's "pitches" are consistently called as "strikes", then he can (and probably should), with clear conscience, throw them during the game.

After seeing the race do I wish the "strike zone" being called was a bit smaller? Sure. But until it is, I'll take a cue from Hansen and not whine about it.

Sabretooth Tiger
August 17th, 2004, 10:19 AM
Since when does participation in a discussion in a swimming forum on swimming technique and a controversial swimming event constitute whining?

knelson
August 17th, 2004, 10:48 AM
I think the wind has been a significant factor in all the events, so, yes, it's still true that if Hansen was close to his Trials time he would have won, but I think that would require an outstanding swim at this pool. Think about it. Breaststroke is probably affected by the wind more than any other stroke because you're lifting more of your body out of the water and consequently into the wind.

Rob Copeland
August 17th, 2004, 11:03 AM
kiwi surfer

If you are interested in finding out how many times Kitajima has been D/Qed, I would suggest you contact the Japanese swimming federation (www.swim.or.jp). They should be able to direct you to this information.

I’d be interested to hear what you find out. So please keep us posted.

As for sour grapes… Yea, I’m sure that is somewhat the case for most of us Yanks. And I doubt we would be as upset if it had been Hansen who has used an illegal kick to win the race, or maybe we would have. For me the bottom line is we are seeing the greatest swimmers in the world doing their best in the Olympic pool. I’m glad to see Thorpe swim the 400 Free and Kitajima in the breaststrokes, the races would be somewhat diminished without their presence.

emmett
August 17th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by botterud
Since when does participation in a discussion in a swimming forum on swimming technique and a controversial swimming event constitute whining?

I was commented about my self.

Whining is in the ear (or eye) of the beholder. If it sounds (or reads) like whining, then it is whining.

For whosoever the footwear is properly sized and shaped, don it.

geochuck
August 17th, 2004, 12:01 PM
Whinning will never make a winner. May be the interpretation of the judge is not the same as we have.

George

valhallan
August 17th, 2004, 01:13 PM
Maybe the kick (Kosuke's) isn't considered a true dolphin kick because it comes from just below the knees and not the the hips. It's not a complete undulation of his legs from what they showed of the race. It's very hard to deny the obvious when he swam it. Only the referees can answer that question. It would be interesting to hear their take on it.

geochuck
August 17th, 2004, 01:24 PM
He did not do a dolphin kick in the 200 m semi-final

George www.swimdownhill.com

LindsayNB
August 17th, 2004, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by kiwi surfer
If as claimed Kitajima has been doing this for several years can someone tell me how many times he's been D/Q.

In the press conference he said that he had never been cautioned or disqualified.

kiwi surfer
August 17th, 2004, 03:40 PM
Nice post Rob C. and others too. I'm throughly enjoying all the swimmimg even though our guys aren't even performing PBs. I loved watching the Mens 100 Free Relay. I never usually support South Africa in any sport, especially so as they beat us at rugby a few days earlier. Now there's a sport where you will see constant "cheating" and it's something that continues in every game until the referee steps in. My question re previous Kitajima D/Qs was more to make the point that if he hadn't been then he's clearly swimmimg legally, albeit pushing the rules to the limit. Nothing wrong with a bit of innovation. Cough cough. From a distance it appears Hansen has come out of this with a lot of credit.

aquageek
August 17th, 2004, 04:41 PM
I'm usually one to say bending the rules or pushing the envelope is ok. Heck, I've even been known to drink hot coffee from McDonalds.

But (and TiVO is the best thing ever) there is such a major difference in Kitajima's turns from the 100 versus the coverage I watched today in the 200. It's astonishing the difference. Makes me wonder why he so dramatically changed his turns if there was nothing wrong with the 100 turns as he states.

londoner62
August 17th, 2004, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Gareth Eckley

Even the British commentators saw it, and their swimming knowledge is quite poor.
:(

Adrian and Andy have both medalled @ the Olympics so I think it is harsh to say their knowledge is poor, I would however say that the 'facts' they quote are often wrong! And they are not as easy on the eye as Sharon!

P.S. Are you swimming @ Sheffield http://www.sportcentric.com/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4716-150621-167837-61042-0-file,00.pdf in October?

kiwi surfer
August 18th, 2004, 01:06 AM
Slightly off topic but today I lunched at my favourite sushi bar. All the staff are recent arrivals from Japan, mostly students here to learn English. Anyhow I walked in and hollered Kitajima, all broke out in high fives and I even scored a free chicken soup. Seems he's real big in Japan. Good to see the medals spread around a bit too.

gull
August 18th, 2004, 08:26 AM
I certainly wouldn't walk into a sushi bar and shout "Kitajima cheated!"--those knives are very sharp.

Chicken soup at a sushi bar? Maybe it wasn't chicken.

aquageek
August 18th, 2004, 08:36 AM
How's the sushi in New Bern? I would expect there might be a lack of experienced sushi chefs but an abundant supply of fish.

Edward The Head
August 18th, 2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
But (and TiVO is the best thing ever) there is such a major difference in Kitajima's turns from the 100 versus the coverage I watched today in the 200. It's astonishing the difference. Makes me wonder why he so dramatically changed his turns if there was nothing wrong with the 100 turns as he states.

If you would please then go back and watch the other swimmers in the events, every one that I have seen have some sort of kick comming off the wall, many look exactly like Kitaima's kick does yet not once have I seen anyone say anything about it. Even at last year's World's I saw the same thing.

So tonight, when they complain and replay his turns watch everyone else's turns. Hell while we're at it why not say something about Phelps' fly, I saw a couple of times where his feet where not together. Or the backstroke, it seems that everyone finishes thier stroke and "glides" then fliips, something that I've been told you can not do.

tjburk
August 18th, 2004, 09:24 AM
Edward, on the fly your feet do not have to stay together. They only have to move simultaneously, whether together or apart doesn't matter.

tjburk
August 18th, 2004, 09:35 AM
And, I would hope that the Stroke and Turn Judges at each end would have the ____s enough to DQ a person (any person) who throws a dolphin kick in in the breaststroke. There is a pretty distinct motion when it comes from the pull and is part of the body dolphining (Totally Legal) and when someone throws in an obvious kick. You can see very distinctly the difference between Kosuke's 100 start and turn and his start and turns in the 200.

Rob Copeland
August 18th, 2004, 09:35 AM
It looks like Edward is lobbying for a position as a stroke and turn judge at the 2008 Games “many look exactly like Kitaima's kick does”. Maybe the Japanese will submit you as their representative.

It appeared to me and others that in the 100 Breaststroke (from the underwater view) Kitaima's pullout did not comply with FINA SW 7.5 “The feet must be turned outwards during the propulsive part of the kick. A scissors, flutter or downward dolphin kick is not permitted.”

To his credit he swam a great 200 in the heats and semis, all with legal turns. It should make for another great finals!

aquageek
August 18th, 2004, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Edward The Head
If you would please then go back and watch the other swimmers in the events, every one that I have seen have some sort of kick comming off the wall, many look exactly like Kitaima's kick does yet not once have I seen anyone say anything about it. Even at last year's World's I saw the same thing.


I did watch everyone's turn as it is possible to look at a TV screen and see more than one person. Kitajima's were much more pronounced.

Apparently this Kitajima dude's turns were a sore subject at world's last year, according to Rowdy anyway.

seltzer
August 18th, 2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
I did watch everyone's turn as it is possible to look at a TV screen and see more than one person. Kitajima's were much more pronounced.

Apparently this Kitajima dude's turns were a sore subject at world's last year, according to Rowdy anyway.

See Phil Whitten's editorial in www.swiminfo.com

Makes two interesting points:

*Violation of dolphin kick, based on underwater tape, suggests that Kitajima was not the only one

*Points out the difficulty of judging this from above-water views

*Suggests that judges have access to underwater video to specifically look for such violations

Several letters to swiminfo make this suggestion and point out that we have specific judges on deck that look at the 15 meter mark to watch for underwater kicking violation in the other strokes.

This is an excellent suggestion for large international meets but is obviously not practical for our local/regional meets.

breastroker
August 18th, 2004, 11:51 AM
CHEATING IS CHEATING.

As a breaststroker I hate cheaters in my stroke. And Kitajima is a cheater.

Did you catch Rowdys comments that Kitajima was doing legal underwaters during the prelims of the 200 breast, but will probably do a dolphin in finals as no stroke judge will be bold enough to disqualify him. Just think about that! It really makes me mad!

Lets face the FACTS, the USA has ZERO power in the world of swimming, and they will allow other swimmers to cheat to beat us!

How do you think the wave came about? Europeans were cheating the rules back in the mid 1980's, both recovering the hands over the water and dipping the head below the waters surface. But because they were beating the USA, they changed the rules so it was legal for the 1988 Olympics!

Now I love the wave style, it makes the stroke beautiful rather than bruttish. But if the USA had come up with it the rules would not have changed.

That water was plenty clear enough to detect the dolphin. The judges will just ignor it because he is a Olympic Gold medalist now.

Note they disqualified Ian for a flutter on the pull down, and his legs did move slightly up and down. Now there is no advantage to that, just a bad form break.

But to dolphin and get another 18 inches is huge when he only won by the same amount in the 100.

Those of us with long memories can remember when the last japanese male breaststroker won, he also cheated with an illegal kick.

geochuck
August 18th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by breastroker
CHEATING IS CHEATING.

As a breaststroker I hate cheaters in my stroke. And Kitajima is a cheater.
He was not dQ'd so he did not cheat. We can rave on but thats the breaks.
Lets not cry over spilt milk.

George www.swimdownhill.com

geochuck
August 18th, 2004, 01:16 PM
JUDGES DECISION

I swam in a twenty eight mile marathon race, Tom Bucy just touched me out and I came second. Rejean Lacoursiere came in 6th six minutes behind me, the officials placed him second. Worse than that Dennis Matuch from Chicago was placed 6th and was actually third. I asked Johnny to go up and straighten this out, He said JUDGES DECISSION. The results stood Johnny received the second place money and I received third place money. When Johnny said JUDGES DECISION, I wound up and was going to punch Johnny but Dennis grabbed my arm and said don't worry George, we will make sure Johhny doesn't finish any more races this year... We got our prize money from Johhny but in the books he still came second I was third and Dennis was sixth.

nyswim
August 18th, 2004, 01:17 PM
no he did not get caught-not the same as not cheating

Edward The Head
August 18th, 2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland
It looks like Edward is lobbying for a position as a stroke and turn judge at the 2008 Games “many look exactly like Kitaima's kick does”. Maybe the Japanese will submit you as their representative.

It appeared to me and others that in the 100 Breaststroke (from the underwater view) Kitaima's pullout did not comply with FINA SW 7.5 “The feet must be turned outwards during the propulsive part of the kick. A scissors, flutter or downward dolphin kick is not permitted.”

To his credit he swam a great 200 in the heats and semis, all with legal turns. It should make for another great finals!

I'm not saying his kick wasn't wrong, just that when they showed his 100s and his 200 and said, here's the difference, the majority of the other swimmers in the pool were doing the same thing and not one thing was said about them. I'd also say that because they were only talking about Kitaima that more people were focused on him, plus he was the one closest to the camera. But if they are going to start DQing people they will have to look at everyone.

nyswim
August 18th, 2004, 01:46 PM
a british swimmer got dk'd in the 200 Breast for his legs coming apart on the turn. I would say what he did gave him close to no advantage in the race, unlike what Kitajima did.

cheating-To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.

I would guess any swimmer who makes the Olympics knows what is correct and incorrect (legal) for his/her stroke.

breastroker
August 18th, 2004, 02:07 PM
no he did not get caught-not the same as not cheating


Lets not cry over spilt milk.

Give me a break, Cheating is cheating and Bill Clinton did not have sex with that woman.

Maybe it is OK to cheat where you come from, but my parents and teachers raised me to do the right thing.

Fifty years ago in Japan he would have had to comit suicide for such a disgrace to their country, and that is exacly what it is, a disgrace. All of Japan should denounce him for what he is, a CHEATER. I hope 50 years from now his grand children ask him why he cheated.

I am sorry about your distance race, but that has nothing to do with CHEATING in front of the whole world. Have you ever read the Olympic creed? No where does it say it is OK to lie, steal or CHEAT at all cost to win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I saw the same underwater videos, and did not see anyone with a underwater pulldown and dolphin bad enough to be disqualified, Except for the CHEATER Kitajima. I would bet you would be singing a different tune if a swimmer from Canada lost the Gold medal to a cheater, but we don't have to worry about that happening.

I remember the 1984 Olympics where the Canadian won the 200 breast. Everyone knew John Moffat sometimes pulled down so hard he had a dolphin and a pike to his underwater. He was watched closely and did not do anything illegal.

You know, there are only three countries in the world united against drug cheaters, the USA, Australia and Canada. It seems only the USA is taking a strong stand against stroke CHEATERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am sorry Bob, but Phil does not say
suggests that Kitajima was not the only one he goes on to mention past Olympics and NCAAs, but does not say there were other cheaters in that race with the CHEATER Kitajima.

Scansy
August 18th, 2004, 02:09 PM
Gee Wayne, I guess we know where you stand!

And I agree.;)

Peter Cruise
August 18th, 2004, 02:23 PM
Whew, Wayne...this Canadian breastroker does agree with you, there is no question that the Japanese swimmer put a big juicy butterfly kick after the start & turns & strangely did not do it in the 200 prelims...the breakdown in officiating though is typical in the olympics. I remember when Adrian Morehouse of UK was disqualified for doing much less in Worlds a few years back.

geochuck
August 18th, 2004, 04:02 PM
Wayne I agree also but the world is not perfect and neither is the Olympic Games.

tjburk
August 18th, 2004, 04:02 PM
George, I respectfully disagree!!! Just because he didn't get DQ'd by the judge doesn't mean he shouldn't have! Just says the judge either a) didn't see it (I hope this is why)! or b) Let him get away with it because it is the Olympics!

He clearly dolphin kicked on both the start and turn of the 100!

londoner62
August 18th, 2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by breastroker

You know, there are only three countries in the world united against drug cheaters, the USA, Australia and Canada. It seems only the USA is taking a strong stand against stroke CHEATERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

I cannot believe you said that!!

Is this the posturing that makes the American attitude such an admired thing in the rest of the world?

Are you seriously suggesting that every one of the other 198 countries attending the Olyimpics this year condone the use of cheating?
I imagine you think BALCO was just trying to earn a living and not attempting to create a drug that would help performances!

By the way, how long before someone mentions the fact that Rowdy Gaines was a freestyler and not too much of a breaststroker?

AF_swim_girl
August 18th, 2004, 06:04 PM
OMG! "Didn't get Dq'd therefor wasn't cheating?!?!?!?" No wonder society is in the shape it's in. If you shoplift and don't get caught, it is still stealing; if you kill and don't get caught, it is still murder; and if my child cribs on a test and doesn't get caught, it is STILL CHEATING!

WARNING WARNING WARNING -- SOAPBOX ALERT

Just because you are not caught does not mean you didn't do wrong... I spent most of my summer preaching "integrity" to my kids--that is, doing the right thing whether anyone is watching or not, this is my mantra for swim practice. And now I read several posts from swimmers who feel that not getting caught equals legal -- BS! He should have been DQ'd, he wasn't. Poor officiating, perhaps--most of us had the benefit of the top view (and the kick was obvious at the start) and the underwater--but that happens in swimming. If the blatantness of the whole thing makes the officials stand up and take notice, more power! We can't change the result, we can change our attitude.

I swam behind someone at last year's LC nationals (yup, that slow...) and the funny thing about Rutger's pool is that it is absolutely clear and when you're a 200 breast (slowly), sometimes you get distracted and start watching the other swimmers in your heat. The swimmer next to me was flutter kicking (2-beat) right at the end of the breast kick. This was not the "hold your feet together at the end of the kick because the motion of the water will make them look like you're flutter kicking" type of kick, but a clear flutter. The officials weren't paying any attention, I was never in contention to even place in the event, and the swimmer was not caught (can't remember if she placed)--point? I'm in the above 40 group, none of us were "new" swimmers, swimming against the rules is a combination of a "learned thing" (often the little dolphin kick is taught (with caveats) to fast swimmers who are more likely to get away with it, and poor instruction/observation. As a coach, everytime I let a swimmer who does a little dolphin off the turn, who likes to splash a turn so the lack of a 2-hand is not obvious slide, I am saying that it is OK to do as long as you don't get caught.

I see coaches on deck take DQ slips and tear them up (often in front of the official) -- our team uses them as learning experiences. Learn to swim fast, correctly, legally and you won't have a bunch of people talking about how you cheated.

But like I said--integrity counts in my world, how 'bout yours?
no, not perfect, stopped even trying to be, but like to think about messages I pass along to others by my actions, and how I might be remember when I leave ("he was a really good breaststroker, remember the '04 olympics when he did that dolphin kick in the 100 Br but didn't get caught?" -- not what I'm looking for, you either, probably)

Down off the soapbox -- isn't it awesome the women's 800 free relay did so well??

geochuck
August 18th, 2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by londoner62
I cannot believe you said that!!

Is this the posturing that makes the American attitude such an admired thing in the rest of the world?
Right on Paul we all know the drug problem is there and everyone In Canada, USA and Australia are not innocent. The USA has been covering up too long about the drug stuff.

As far as cheating goes did Kosuke Kitajima think he was cheating when he was never told in the past he was cheating or doing wrong. How can you cheat if you don't think you are cheating.

Sabretooth Tiger
August 18th, 2004, 07:03 PM
Come on George, any age group breaststroker swimming for a coach with a clue knows that you can't do a dolphin kick with your pull down. Knowing you can get away with it does not mean you're ignorant to your own cheating . . . just that you can get away with it. We then advance to the question of "no call, no foul" vs. ideals of sportsmanship, a topic worthy of discussion and why I started this thread (along with my incredulity at the non-call . . . see Emmitt, not whining, just a good topic for discussion and a blessed change from my ill advised travels into the world of hot coffee and laps . . . pun intended).

carl

Blue Horn
August 18th, 2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
[As far as cheating goes did Kosuke Kitajima think he was cheating when he was never told in the past he was cheating or doing wrong. How can you cheat if you don't think you are cheating. [/B]

Of course it is still cheating. Second, are you really suggesting that Kitajima didn't know that dolphin kicks in breast stroke starts and turns are illegal? Get real. I guess your next argument is going to be that his dolphin kicks didn't give him a competitive advantage?

The guy gave himself a competitive advantage by breaking the rules of the competition. How in the world is this not cheating? Where is the honor or even the respect of winning a gold medal when it was obtained solely by cheating conduct? There isn't any honor or respect in that situation.

I would be ashamed and outraged if it was an American that cheated or if the peron cheated out of a medal was Japanese. Either way, cheating is cheating and should not be condoned or dismissed because it was an American that was cheated out of the gold medal. Why this has anything to do with an issue regarding America or Americans is beyond me. I guess some people will use any excuse to bash America or Americans.

Hook'em
Blue

geochuck
August 18th, 2004, 07:40 PM
I did a 200 medley and was dQ'd. I did the 50 Fly, then made my turn and took a push off to do the Breast, and realised I was supposed to do Backstroke, turned on my Back, then did the Breast, then the Free. First time I lost in the 200 medley.
I don't think I was trying to cheat. It just happened. Like I think that little kick of his just happened.

I still like my Tim Horton's coffee hot, just a little cream, no sugar.

George www.swimdownhill.com

aquageek
August 18th, 2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
First time I lost in the 200 medley. I don't think I was trying to cheat.

So, if you don't intend to cheat but inadvertently do, that's ok?

Must be a boring day to discuss swimming on the Canadian MS and English MS discussion forums. Eventually you must get tired of lamenting your own sorry teams and take on the team that really is the best. Then again, Ben Johnson is a national hero still in Canada, correct?

breastroker
August 18th, 2004, 08:09 PM
Kitajima is one of the most technically correct breaststrokers EVER. I love his stroke, it is exactly what I coach. He has perfect start and has the fastest turns, technically perfect! He glides with his head underwater, what I call the one second drill. I love everything his coach has taught him about the breaststroke.

Knowing this is what really gets me off, because he absolutely KNOWS that his dolphin on the underwater pull down is not legal and he also knows it gives hims an advantage. He knew Brendan was swimming vey fast in prelims.

geochuck,
I think that little kick of his just happened Dream on, he knew it, otherwise why did he change in the 200? He has been warned in the past, but if you get away at it at Worlds, why not try it at the Olympics. No one remembers who comes in second place.

So he took a chance and cheated his way to a Gold Medal!

End of story. He CHEATED.

He has the talent to be the best ever, speed with 200 distance power.

At least he won the 200 Breast fare and square, so the world complaining at least FORCED him to stop cheating.

Sabretooth Tiger
August 18th, 2004, 08:14 PM
Fair enough George. You did not intentionally break the rules when you were dq'd just like I was not trying to cheat when at the end of my first and only 200 fly for Occidental against the University of Redlands in their 33 and a third yard pool in 1973 I started my stroke at the finish, then pulled short and touched (breast pull rather than completing the fly stroke . . . not trying to cheat, just fricking exhausted and not thinking) and got dq'd (would have scored at 3rd place . . . isn't it amazing what sticks with you?) and like I didn't mean to jump early on our relay at SCY Nats in Phoenix last year, but got dq'd for that too.

At any rate, perhaps it was "inadvertent" . . . I don't believe so (how do you accidently dolphin?) but have no personal knowledge of facts one way or the other. Nevertheless, it was still a clear rule violation and one to his advantage. I experimented today at practice and did pushoffs with and without a single dolphin kick . . . absolutely got farther with the kick than without. And if it was intentional, that makes it (in my estimation) worse.

If it was inadvertent, then no intent, but still illegal.

If intentional, cheating.

Both should lead to a dq.

Oh well, life is short, gotta go home and watch some swimming.

carl

geochuck
August 18th, 2004, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
So, if you don't intend to cheat but inadvertently do, that's ok?

Must be a boring day to discuss swimming on the Canadian MS and English MS discussion forums. Eventually you must get tired of lamenting your own sorry teams and take on the team that really is the best. Then again, Ben Johnson is a national hero still in Canada, correct?
Ben Johnson is still a great shame to Canada, but was only doing exactlly what all the others of his time were doing, only they were not caught. The word was even the American runners were participating in drugs. Carl Lewis however did deny it. Canada has had a bad swim program since the Johnsons' (not Ben Johnson) took over the national plan for Canada. I don't think our swimmers have anything to be ashamed of. They are following the Olympic dream.

George

breastroker
August 18th, 2004, 08:26 PM
I took a huge shot at the canadian team, but aquageek hit below the belt. Canada has great coaches and a very good sports science program. The engineer who came up with the first Speedo Fastskin was a jet engineer from Canada.

What they do not have is a great college program. They do well with a small program. They do lack the overall leadership such as Bill Sweatham has for England.

This is where the USA educates and trains half the great swimmers in the world. Three of the four from South Africa, Agnes Kovacs, the list is huge at this years Olympics. Stanford and Auborn have half a dozen swimmers swimming for other countries.

Japan, Russia and Australia all have great national programs, the rest of the world can send their swimmers to the USA for free education and Olympic glory.

breastroker
August 18th, 2004, 08:30 PM
George, thanks to the link to your web site. I love your tips.

dreamer
August 18th, 2004, 09:04 PM
Why is a dolphin kick off the breastroke turn prohibited? In the other strokes I noticed a dolphin kick used after turning off the wall, or even at the start. Just curious..

Scansy
August 18th, 2004, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by dreamer
Why is a dolphin kick off the breastroke turn prohibited? In the other strokes I noticed a dolphin kick used after turning off the wall, or even at the start. Just curious..

I'm sure there is some historical tie-in to the time when the butterfly was created as a sort of "spin-off" of the breaststroke - although I don't know what that is.

BUT - a dolphin kick is definately allowed off the wall on the fly, backstroke (on your back of course) and free. In fact, they are pretty much accepted as the best way to keep up the speed off the wall for those three.

geochuck
August 18th, 2004, 10:11 PM
Evolution breastroke with a frog kick, it then became ok to bring the arms over the top in breaststroke.

Matt Manne jr started to do what they called a fish tail kick I was in London Ontario the first time he demonstrated this new thing.

Then someone started to do a double kick which they called a dolphin kick this was not legal for breaststroke and this is where the two strokes seperated.

When you were not allowed to do a fish tail in came the whip kick for breaststroke, as close as they could get to the fishtail without breaking the rules. From there who knows the rest of the changes, above water, below water head position, swimming all the way underwater and rule change after rule change... the story continues.


The only reason I know this is because I am getting long in the tooth.

George Park www.swimdownhill.com

swimr4life
August 19th, 2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by londoner62
I cannot believe you said that!!

Is this the posturing that makes the American attitude such an admired thing in the rest of the world?

That is not necessary.

Renaissance Racer
August 19th, 2004, 12:29 AM
Anyone notice how many Japanese swimmers are doing well in this Olympics? They are well trained and ready for this meet. The mens team has excellent swimmers in the breast, fly, AND back ... look for them to be a surprise in the Medley relay. They won't beat the US team but might sneak in a silver or bronze.

geochuck
August 19th, 2004, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Renaissance Racer
Anyone notice how many Japanese swimmers are doing well in this Olympics? They are well trained and ready for this meet. The mens team has excellent swimmers in the breast, fly, AND back ... look for them to be a surprise in the Medley relay. They won't beat the US team but might sneak in a silver or bronze.
The Japanese have been great over the years. Before I was born, 1932 in LosAngeles the American mens swim team won two golds, nearly all of the Americans were physical copies of Buster Crabbe and Johnny Weissmuller, over 6 feet 2 inches. The Japanese men swimmers averaged 5 feet 2 inches and won 5 gold swimming medals.

George Park www.swimdownhill.com

Gareth Eckley
August 19th, 2004, 06:44 AM
In all fairness to Wayne, I think he would want to go back and change his " only US, Canada and Australia" are against drug cheats if he could. Britain has a pretty good record, and the US track & field fiasco is a black mark, there.

I feel that US and Australian swimming is "clean". Reasons are performances have steadily improved, swimmers have taken years to reduce their times.

A big red flag is when a swimmer comes from nowhere, say 64th in the world to winning a medal in less than a year. Another clue to drug use is a swimmer showing no signs of tiring at the end of a race, especially if they aare unknown or performing above expectations.

There are a couple of suspicious swims this year. A chinese swimmer who won yesterdays Breaststroke, the french female swimmer who won the free 400 ? a few days ago are two that i noticed. Why is Claudia Poll allowed to swim ??

It is enraging to see your countries swimmer beaten by a drug cheat or by a clear stroke violation. Canada's Morgan Knabe was beaten at the worlds a few years ago by another who did the dolphin kick on the breakout. Katijama dolphin kicked at last years worlds and got away with it.

4 years ago, It was hard to see Jenny Thompson lose the freestyle Gold medal to Michelle Smith, remember her ? Smith, only months, later was suspended for spiking a drug test with alchohol, but they did not cancel her olympic results.

Katijama is a beautiful breaststroker to watch, he could win without the dolphin kick. However if he can get away with it then why should not every swimmer use the dolphin kick whenever they swim breaststroke. I think Fina should clarify the rules and state excactly what can or cannot be done, or allow everyone to dolphin kick.

I am enjoying the coverage and boy is Kaitlin Sandeno easy on the eyes. She wins my vote for hottest female swimmer.:D

seltzer
August 19th, 2004, 08:30 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gareth Eckley
[B]In all fairness to Wayne, I think he would want to go back and change his " only US, Canada and Australia" are against drug cheats if he could. Britain has a pretty good record, and the US track & field fiasco is a black mark, there.

I feel that US and Australian swimming is "clean". Reasons are performances have steadily improved, swimmers have taken years to reduce their times.

A few points:

1) You cannot make statements about "countries" vis-a-vis drugs unless all sports are state controlled. It only makes sense to judge the respective sports federation and other bodies. For example, in the US the various swimming authorities, both formal and informal, have been actively vocal against drugs in their sport. US Track and Field is a disagrace and varioius authorities, including the USOC must be held partly responsible. Also how can the USOC have Donald Fehr involved in their organization for so many yearS? My point is that making blanket statements about countries is fraught with error.

2) Is US swimming clean? Not even sure what that means. If you mean that there is widespread opposition to drug use and willingness to embrace legitimate testing absolutely. We're also fortunate to have prominent swimming community members speaking out against drug use. It is likely that any drug use by US swimmers is due to "rogue" swimmers or coaches.

Having said all of this I do believe that the vast majority of international swimmin federations are not only against drug use but more importantly are in favor of more stringent testing. Most of the disagreements appear to be howver the question of how fast to push the search for new drugs. At this point the best deterrent is a policy, yet to be adopted on a widespread basis, that samples will be kept for X years and will be tested retroactively for new drugs. Also like the idea of coming up with new drug tests that look further back and suprise testing or retro testing to catch those cheaters who attempt to "wash out" the drugs prior to big competition.

breastroker
August 19th, 2004, 10:06 AM
Lets start with all that is good
Kaitlin Sandeno easy on the eyes between her, Natalie and Amanda there is a lot of USA eye candy. But I am with Gareth, Kaitlin is a doll.

Compare her to the "spitting lady" of past olympics:D

At the last SPMA Long course meters championships, one of my competitors (at least he thinks he can compete) spit in my lane. I nearly cracked up! I then proceeded to beat him by 3-4 seconds in the 50 meters breast!

Actually I posted the comments about drug testing to stir the waters and was surprised that it did not get much flack immediately.I know a lot about the lack of effort by the USA drug people over the last 20 years. The people on top of the USA and the Olympic movements really do not want scandels, hence a Michelle Smith. You literally have to be foaming at the mouth like Ben Johnson to be caught.

Many of us "in the know" are really MAD AS HELL about the drug cheats, hence the Masters have been in thre front of the campaign to get stricter testing. Phill Whitten is a hero, standing up for dozens of years while the US Swimming heads said nothing.

About 10 years ago when the drugged up chinese women were destroying records, the US Masters swimmers performed on stage at the USAS convention. This includes US swimming, US Diving, US Synchronized swimming, US Water Polo, Masters Diving, Masters Water Polo.

The skit involved bearded masters coming out in full body suits, as the Chinese womens swim team. These guys all had full beards and were as we say "large". Every one thought it very funny, except that it had international implications. As we would say, not very politically correct. But Masters has always been in the fore front against cheating. We are also leading the way on trying to remove the Gold medals and kicking the PROVEN East German drug cheats out of the Swimming Hall of Fame.

geochuck
August 19th, 2004, 10:14 AM
Talking about drug and dolphin cheats, what about the rectal air injection and air gulping to give better bouyancy. There are lots of ways to cheat.

George

aquageek
August 19th, 2004, 10:31 AM
Where in the world did that come from, a technique back in the 40s?

geochuck
August 19th, 2004, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
Where in the world did that come from, a technique back in the 40s?
As a matter of fact it was when the East German women were swimming so fast the 70s and 80s.

George

gull
August 19th, 2004, 10:46 AM
You mean that's not legal?

Tom Ellison
August 19th, 2004, 10:56 AM
Wayne:
Sever or eight years ago I posted my thoughts on USMS withdrawing from FINA when they were dragging their feet on cracking down on drug cheats and got hammered here for being a rabble rouser. Everyone now realizes FINA did drag their feet for years and then after enourmas pressure from many sports federations they began to tighten the clamp on drug cheating.

I have always said that Shirley Babashaw (SP) should be awarded 6 Gold Medals in place of the Silver Medal she won back then. Her story is one of the most graphic and sad stories of a swimmer who dedicated her entire life to becoming a Gold Medal winner, only to be robbed by one of the largest state run drug cheating programs known to sports.

I still maintain that one or two year suspensions are to lenient. I believe you should be thrown out for life when caught using drugs to enhance performance.

aquageek
August 19th, 2004, 10:57 AM
I don't buy this, gotta be an urban legend.

You mean to tell me at the Olympics in the 70s and 80s the East German women were hooked up to air compressors in the locker rooms? I would suspect that might have been noticed. Maybe this is why dives are so much deeper now than before - less gas.

I, for one, have not noticed increased performance following an extra helping of beans at my favorite Mexican restaurant. You gotta wonder if maybe this might give vegetarians an advantage.

geochuck
August 19th, 2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
I don't buy this, gotta be an urban legend.

You mean to tell me at the Olympics in the 70s and 80s the East German women were hooked up to air compressors in the locker rooms? I would suspect that might have been noticed. Maybe this is why dives are so much deeper now than before - less gas.

I, for one, have not noticed increased performance following an extra helping of beans at my favorite Mexican restaurant. You gotta wonder if maybe this might give vegetarians an advantage.
Gee... did I say it was the East German Women who did this. It could have been an urban legend but this was mentioned at the time, I had contacted www.rediff.com/sports/2000/sep/15germ.htm to verify but have never had the information returned.

George

Gareth Eckley
August 19th, 2004, 11:10 AM
Now this has real potential.

A swimmer could study to find the foods that produce the most noxious gas - jerusalem artichokes and chilli beans washed down with WARM real ale would make a good combo.

Then a well timed FART just before the start could cause other competitors to fall of the blocks, just like Ian Thorpe ! Thus giving one a huge advantage.

To dispose of the rest, you would have to go out really fast to gain a lead and then FART into the water to snuff out the few swimmers that are left.:D

I think i must try this at my next meet. I looked in my Fina rule book and there is no rule against this.;)

nyswim
August 19th, 2004, 11:36 AM
i get enough hot air blown up my arse at work, really don't need it at the pool also (and mechanially no less)

Leonard Jansen
August 19th, 2004, 11:39 AM
Actually, the injection of air into the lower colon is NOT an urban legend. The East Germans tried it in the 70's but found that it caused extreme discomfort and cramping. They also found that it didn't really seem to help, regardless of cramping. In order for it to help, it would have to lower the overall density of the swimmer. Since the mass of the swimmer doesn't change, the volume would have to become greater, but this would also increase the drag of the swimmer because of the greater volume. (Think of what happens when you inflate your lungs fully vs exhale fully.) Also, since air is compressible, if you put reasonable volumes into the lower colon, the body's mass has some resistance to deformation. You may feel bloated and, in fact, may have some overall volume change but in this case you get less out than you put in. (No snide comments.)

Source: When I was with the USOC, we had a *very* high ranking East German sport scientist/administrator visit in the mid-80's. In the interest of "openess" (what B.S.) we had a question & answer session with him regarding their sport science methods. One of our physiologists asked him about the air-in-the-lower-colon experiment and, despite the fact that he was a lying weasel S.O.B., he seemed truthful on the above answer.

Some of his other answers were so patently nonsensical or evasive that we basically called the session early.

-LBJ

breastroker
August 19th, 2004, 11:41 AM
The East Germans also experimented with sodium bicarbonate, a legal substance that acts as a blood buffer. It has been proven to work by just about every study.

The unfortunate by-products of injestion of large amounts of sodium bicarbonate are huge burps and farts. Needless to say they did not use it!

Yes they did experiment with air. Again I do not believe they actually used it in competition. Some ideas are just BAD:D

I agree with Tom, Shirley Babashaw should be awarded her Gold medals stolen by drug cheats. This was proven in courts of law in Germany. These same coaches then wen to work for the chinese! Also proven drug cheats.

The great breaststroker John Moffat was going to do a television documentary about 5 years ago, talking with many of the east German women who won but their lives were ruined by cancers and other health problems. At that time Shirley would not let herself be interviewed.

Since then she was honored at the USAS Convention as the rightful winner of those Gold medals. The room gave her a standing ovation. She was the little girl ( youngest on the team ) who upon going into the womens locker room, came out screaming there are men in there. Of course it was just the East German women with their bass male voices!

She was also humiliated when coming home to the USA by our wonderful media, who complained that she did not beat the East German girls and was a failure!

Shirley has gone with her life and has become a great college swim coach. She is a true American Hero! God bless her.

breastroker
August 19th, 2004, 11:44 AM
On the lighter side, Gareth, pickeled eggs and beer also work well. Absolutely deadly :D


Leonard, great post!

aquageek
August 19th, 2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Leonard Jansen
Actually, the injection of air into the lower colon is NOT an urban legend. The East Germans tried it in the 70's but found that it caused extreme discomfort and cramping.

Hard to believe that pumping air into your back side would cause discomfort and cramping but I'm sure glad the East Germans decided human testing was needed to verify this. Maybe they should have considered helium. Isn't methane already lighter than air?

gull
August 19th, 2004, 12:45 PM
Gastroenterologists repeat this "experiment" on a daily basis. The results are always the same--which is why they sedate their patients. The last thing you feel like doing after a sigmoidoscopy is going for a swim.

I have had races where I really sucked wind, but I don't think that's what George is referring to by "air gulping".

matysekj
August 19th, 2004, 02:17 PM
The past few posts have been deleted. C'mon people, keep the spoiler information out of non-spoiler threads. There's only a few more days.

Tom Ellison
August 19th, 2004, 02:31 PM
Sorry about that....honest mistake...

Gareth Eckley
August 19th, 2004, 02:36 PM
By Aquageek:

I'm sure glad the East Germans decided human testing was needed to verify this. Maybe they should have considered helium. Isn't methane already lighter than air?

Would that make you talk like Donald Duck ? A sure way for the IOC to test for this form of cheating.:)

londoner62
August 19th, 2004, 02:40 PM
Re: Such arrogance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by londoner62
I cannot believe you said that!!

Is this the posturing that makes the American attitude such an admired thing in the rest of the world?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:swimr4life

That is not necessary.

My apologies to you swmr4life as well as every other I might have offended with the above quote (although I would point out it would be less objectionable if taken in context with the rest of my posting).

In mitigation, I can only say I was instantly boiling at what I inferred to be a holier than though attitude. I stand by my opinion that all attempts to eradicate abuse should be applauded and not just those that pump the most money at the problem.

On a seperate note, the swim forums (try http://www.swimclub.co.uk/ ) in the UK are humming along quite nicely thank you.

swimr4life
August 19th, 2004, 02:48 PM
I'm sorry Jim and other readers! My mistake. I didn't mean to spoil anyone's surprise. I haven't been watching the news so I can be surprised when I watch the Olympics! Please accept my apologies!

Scansy
August 19th, 2004, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
Sorry about that....honest mistake...

That's ok, just blame it on Mr. Moose.:D

Rob Copeland
August 19th, 2004, 03:10 PM
Honest mistake… Yea, Right.

Isn’t this the same crowd that demonized some poor swimmer for mistakenly throwing a tiny little dolphin kick in his 100 Breaststroke? ;)

breastroker
August 19th, 2004, 03:15 PM
But hey, what's up at Swiminfo.com.

Everyone knows the results of tonights finals, but poor old swiminfo gave us just the 200 back results.

Come on, breaststrokers everywhere want to know if Amanda does her thing.

Interesting note on Amanda, she took less strokes in the 200 breast at Trials than Brendan Hansen!

I was trying to count her strokes in the prelims yesterday, but nearly broke my neck when the cameras switched positions. I hope they show it better tonight.

Her distance per stroke is HUGE, she can go as low as 19 stroke per 50, and gets going the last length at about 21 strokes!!! If I rememer correctly she used to be about 35 strokes per length in 1996. Rowdy is totally wrong, she nowhere near swims the same. It is entirely different, and now truly a true pull, kick (with head underwater) and glide.

Now I like Rowdy, he is the only one I know who can talk about swimming faster and longer than I can. But PLEASE, stop the stroke comments. He does not know breaststroke:D

He should be talking about what really makes Phelps and Thorpedo so great. They both start OK (Thorpedo a two foot at the front of the blocks start) and they both do several (4-5) dolphins while underwater. They both gain nearly a body length doing that!! That is huge. Nothing upsets me more than when freestylers push off the turns and immediatly start furiously kicking flutter kick. Notice those swimmers usually come up at the 5 meter mark. But Thorpe and Phelps come up 10 to 13 meters out.out This goes all the way back to the 1992 Olympics when Popov did 2-3 dolphins off the start and turns (while USA swimmers did not) and he won by the exact distance he gained in those dolphins.

gull
August 19th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Rob's right. As often as these guys post, there's no way it was an honest mistake. They just didn't think they'd get caught. Fotunately we have an administrator who isn't afraid to make the tough calls.

Scansy
August 19th, 2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by breastroker
... He should be talking about what really makes Phelps and Thorpedo so great. They both start OK (Thorpedo a two foot at the front of the blocks start) and they both do several (4-5) dolphins while underwater. They both gain nearly a body length doing that!! That is huge. Nothing upsets me more than when freestylers push off the turns and immediatly start furiously kicking flutter kick. Notice those swimmers usually come up at the 5 meter mark. But Thorpe and Phelps come up 10 to 13 meters out.out This goes all the way back to the 1992 Olympics when Popov did 2-3 dolphins off the start and turns (while USA swimmers did not) and he won by the exact distance he gained in those dolphins.

I noticed that too. In general at these olympics, the swimmer who can dolphin the most underwater seems to have a big advantage.

I know that the importance of the dolphin off the start/turns is discussed in other posts, books, coaches talks, etc., etc. - but seeing it really makes it hit me over the head.

Something to incorporate into my swimming. Look out Phelps!:D

swimr4life
August 19th, 2004, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Rob's right. As often as these guys post, there's no way it was an honest mistake. They just didn't think they'd get caught. Fotunately we have an administrator who isn't afraid to make the tough calls.

Wow. I apologize then get attacked. :confused:

gull
August 19th, 2004, 03:57 PM
I forgot the smiley face--I was joking. :D

Bob McAdams
August 20th, 2004, 10:34 PM
Originally posted by dreamer
Why is a dolphin kick off the breastroke turn prohibited? In the other strokes I noticed a dolphin kick used after turning off the wall, or even at the start. Just curious..

It is prohibited because it is not a legal kick for breaststroke.

The reason you can dolphin kick after a turn in freestyle, backstroke, and butterfly is because you can dolphin kick when stroking freestyle, backstroke, and butterfly.

You're never allowed to do a kick after a turn that you aren't allowed to do the rest of the time.

Scansy
August 21st, 2004, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Bob McAdams
It is prohibited because it is not a legal kick for breaststroke.

The reason you can dolphin kick after a turn in freestyle, backstroke, and butterfly is because you can dolphin kick when stroking freestyle, backstroke, and butterfly.

You're never allowed to do a kick after a turn that you aren't allowed to do the rest of the time.

You can legally do a dolphin kick on the backstroke (other than underwater off the wall)?:confused:

LindsayNB
August 21st, 2004, 10:31 AM
Basically you can do whatever you want, as long as you stay on your back and surface within 15m. You don't have to swim back crawl!

geochuck
August 21st, 2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
Basically you can do whatever you want, as long as you stay on your back and surface within 15m. You don't have to swim back crawl!
There was a great Canadian Backstroker by the name of Ross who used to swim for USC, he used to do a double arm backstroke.

George Park www.swimdownhill.com

Scansy
August 21st, 2004, 11:21 AM
Has anyone tried to use a fly kick during the actual stroke? It is more powerful than a flutter kick right? Although I wonder if it might not be as good at keeping your feet/legs/hips up - therefore allowing more drag.

Allen Stark
August 22nd, 2004, 08:00 PM
Speaking of dolfin kicks I do think Aaron Piersol took an extra kick before the turn where he was almost DQ'd.It was subtle & I doubt I would have noticed without the controversy.

Bob McAdams
August 22nd, 2004, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Allen Stark
Speaking of dolfin kicks I do think Aaron Piersol took an extra kick before the turn where he was almost DQ'd.It was subtle & I doubt I would have noticed without the controversy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "extra kick". The rules for backstroke turns simply say that:

"During the turn the shoulders may be turned over the vertical to the breast after which a continuous single arm pull or a continuous simultaneous double arm pull may be used to initiate the turn. Once the body has left the position on the back, any kick or arm pull must be part of the continuous turning action. The swimmer must have returned to the position on the back upon leaving the wall. When executing the turn there must be a touch of the wall with some part of the swimmer’s body."

Note that while it specifies "a continuous single arm pull or a continuous simultaneous double arm pull" (which would imply that only one arm pull is allowed), there is no similar provision regarding kicking. Historically, it has been ruled that any kicking that is done during the continuous turning action is considered part of it.

So if the arm pull was not continuous, or was not directly linked to the turning action (i.e., if there was a pause between the arm pull and the flip), any kicking done prior to the pause would be illegal. But this would really be irrelevant, since it would be a DQ even if there were no kicking prior to the pause, because the turning action would not have been continuous.

But if the arm pull was continuous, and was directly linked to the turning action, the only grounds for a DQ would be if there were a pause after the roll onto the breast and before the beginning of the arm pull, and if kicking occurred during that pause.

Renaissance Racer
August 23rd, 2004, 12:25 AM
Did anyone catch any coverage of the breaststroke leg of the Mens 400 Medley Relay finals? I was wondering if there was any underwater footage of Kitajima's 100 breast in the relay. His time was pretty 'smokin' fast. I think he was a 1/10 of a second so faster than Hansen. I don't know if it was the fastest 100 breast split ever, but it was probably pretty close!

Tom Ellison
August 24th, 2004, 08:52 AM
Hey Beth....if you hear hammering and nails being whacked....RUN...because these guys are building the gallows for us....

swimr4life
August 24th, 2004, 02:29 PM
A quote from one of my favorite movies...."Fire away and fall back!" I still say he should have been DQ'd!

.....Kitajima that is! Not Peirsol!

gull
August 24th, 2004, 02:40 PM
Was that The Long Riders? Great movie.

Tom Ellison
August 24th, 2004, 02:40 PM
Beth….I prefer the “Stick the bayonet in and shoot it out” style….

swimr4life
August 24th, 2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Was that The Long Riders? Great movie.

Yes! It is a good one!;)

tjburk
August 24th, 2004, 06:14 PM
When Private Pyle says, "Full Metal Jacket" Turn around and run!

hooked-on-swimming
October 12th, 2004, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by tjburk
Hi Beth!!! No, once the race is over there isn't even an appeal process, because it is based on a subjective point of view. What kills me is, not only did one official miss it (the start) but then a second official (turn) missed it as well! Blind in one eye and can't see out of the other!!!!!! I can possibly excuse the one at the start because of the bubbles form the splash, but the second..... come on, which swimmer was he/she watching!!!! Sorry for ranting, but this one was too obvious!!!! And absolute KUDOS to Mr Hansen on his biting of the tongue!! Shred him in the 200!!!!

Well, how about Aaron Piersol's DQ and the appeal process to give the medal back to him?So why was Piersol's illegal turn justified(or not illegal? again ... food for discussion)?And... hm... no one is complaining here...
Honestly, would you even say anything, guys, if it was the other way around, i.e. Hansen winning over Kitajima the way it all happened?I bet we would't even see a post about it on the site.
Just a step away from swimming to gymnastics - how come Paul Hamm's medal is being defended so vigorously, although everyone knows(including himself) that the judges' obvious mistake which is not even subjective insured his gold?

Allen Stark
October 13th, 2004, 12:33 AM
I had always been(past tense) a big Kitajima fan so I don't think it is chauvinism to think the situation between Kitajima vs. Piersol and Hamm is totally different. Maybe Piersol should have been disqualified, it was close and if he made a mistake it was unintentional. Hamm did nothing wrong! The judges blew it and I think two Golds should have been awarded. Kitajima clearly and deliberately CHEATED.He got away with it,but he cheated.

Karen Duggan
October 13th, 2004, 12:45 AM
As I stated in another post I think Aaron Peirson is a doll (which has nothing to do with anything), however I questioned his first turn as he swam. To me it looked like he glided a little too long into the first turn. I actually cringed when I saw it because I thought he might get DQ'd; which gets into the backstroke rule change thread I started...
OK, I'm ready, fire away. (Remember, it's just what I think I saw and it's my opinion)

Bob McAdams
October 13th, 2004, 05:32 AM
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
Originally posted by tjburk
Hi Beth!!! No, once the race is over there isn't even an appeal process, because it is based on a subjective point of view. What kills me is, not only did one official miss it (the start) but then a second official (turn) missed it as well! Blind in one eye and can't see out of the other!!!!!! I can possibly excuse the one at the start because of the bubbles form the splash, but the second..... come on, which swimmer was he/she watching!!!! Sorry for ranting, but this one was too obvious!!!! And absolute KUDOS to Mr Hansen on his biting of the tongue!! Shred him in the 200!!!!

Well, how about Aaron Piersol's DQ and the appeal process to give the medal back to him?So why was Piersol's illegal turn justified(or not illegal? again ... food for discussion)?
Well, how about Aaron Piersol's DQ and the appeal process to give the medal back to him?So why was Piersol's illegal turn justified(or not illegal? again ... food for discussion)?

What happened in Piersol's case is that the DQ was never officially accepted. Keep in mind that an official cannot just say "This swimmer is DQed." He must give the reason for the DQ, and the reason must be something in the rule book.