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Swimmer Bill
November 4th, 2004, 02:00 PM
Hi Everyone,

I'm writing an article about swimmers and career success, and I'm wondering what you all have to say on the topic.

Do you think swimmers achieve greater career success than other types of athletes?

If so, why?

I'm going to run a poll, but I also welcome responses here in this forum or privately.

Thanks in advance for your responses,
Bill

Scansy
November 4th, 2004, 02:21 PM
I apologize in advance if this seems like a stupid question - what do you mean by career success - are you talking about the swimming careers of the elite swimmers (Phelps, Beard, etc.) - or are you talking about the everyday careers (doctor, banker, contractor, etc.) of us "regular" swimmers?

Swimmer Bill
November 4th, 2004, 02:27 PM
Hi Paul,

Good question! I'm talking about everyday careers of "regular" (Masters or adult) swimmers.

Bill

EyeoreSAM
November 4th, 2004, 02:32 PM
I think that in order to be a swimmer you have to be organized in order to fit more on your plate. Just being a self started and going to swimming even with a career makes you successful.

Scansy
November 4th, 2004, 02:48 PM
OK, I would say that those who exercise regularly are generally more successful in careers. But that makes for an interesting question. Does the exercising make someone more successful? Or does exercising tend to draw a certain type of person (the "go-getter")? I suspect that the exercising tends to draw interest from that type of person.

As for swimming vs. other forms of exercise - say running or weight lifting - I'm not sure that swimmers have an advantage (or disadvantage).

I do know one thing, swimmers are far better looking than other athletes!:D

I have no scientific evidence to back any of this up, but that has never stopped me from spouting off in the past.

aquageek
November 4th, 2004, 03:55 PM
Friends and family consider me the biggest fool around to get up to immerse myself in cold water at 5 am.

geochuck
November 4th, 2004, 04:02 PM
George Young the first swimmer to do the Catalina Swim ended up as a railway worker. He was happy with this. Cliff Lumsden one of Canadas top marathon swimmers worked at a swimming pool, he taught swimming to little kids, he loved his career. Swimmers careers are like everyone else you find your nitch you do it nothing special and no better than anyone else.

George

bckirkland
November 4th, 2004, 04:22 PM
That's what it sounds like you're asking. If that's the question, then I'm gonna have to say no. A common trait amongst the successful people that I know is that they all exercise. But the exercise isn't the thing that has made them successful, they're hard work and dedication to their career has. Excercise is more of a form of stress relief and an escape.

That said too, the majority of the successful people I know who exercise don't swim. They usually run or lift weights. I know very few people outside of Masters who actually swim. With that info then, I would have to say no, swimmers aren't more successful in their careers than other atheletes, nor are runners more successful in their careers than swimmers. The swimming, running or whatever it is that you do is just a byproduct of successful people.

And I really like what geochuck said: Swimmers (runners, etc.) careers are like everyone else, you find your nitch, you do it, nothing special and no better than anyone else.

Scansy
November 4th, 2004, 04:47 PM
I should be clear - for me success in a career doesn't mean make lots of money and rule a large empire. Success means you do whatever you do to the best of your abilities and are among the best at it. Whether that is brain surgeon or bricklayer.

geochuck
November 4th, 2004, 04:48 PM
I personally did not like to work for someone who tells me what to do. I did my own thing and I am pretty succesful. I owned and operated a swim school, and made some good bucks. When I moved to western Canada my wife and I worked with children in crisis, we loved our work. Even though I am 71 now we still work about six months with kids. But in the winter I go to Mexico and run swim clinics for some begginers, some master swimmers, and some college swimmers. It is great fun and not only that I get fit myself and still earn a few bucks.

Am I more succesful than any one else, I don't think so but I love my life as it is, my wife and I are still together after 47 years, now that is what I call succesful... in this day and age.

George

aquageek
November 4th, 2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Scansy
I should be clear - for me success in a career doesn't mean make lots of money and rule a large empire. Success means you do whatever you do to the best of your abilities and are among the best at it. Whether that is brain surgeon or bricklayer.

Do you know the skill required or the wages paid to a brickmason? Let me tell you, it's a heck of a good career.

Scansy
November 4th, 2004, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Do you know the skill required or the wages paid to a brickmason? Let me tell you, it's a heck of a good career.

I am involved in engineering/construction management in the Philadelphia area. We work with a lot of union workers. Yes, there is a boat load of skill/training and a boatload of money to be made if you want - if you are successful.

Conniekat8
November 4th, 2004, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Scansy
I am involved in engineering/construction management in the Philadelphia area.

I didn't kniow that about you :D
What kind of Engineering?

Scansy
November 5th, 2004, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by Conniekat8
I didn't kniow that about you :D
What kind of Engineering?

Mechanical - everything including HVAC, plumbing, some fire protection, high purity water, medical gas, waste treatment, etc. Most of my work is for pharmaceutical or medical facilities.

bitwiz
November 5th, 2004, 10:07 AM
I'll just repeat what was already said...
I don't think swimmers are any different from other people that exercise a lot.
All of us that do exercise generally seem happier in our lives than general population, and I do believe that we tend to be more succesful in the "at peace with oneself" department.

laineybug
November 5th, 2004, 12:06 PM
Interesting question Bill. When I was in grad school a fellow student did her dissertation on Nobel Prize winners to see if she could discover what they had in common that made them a success. She actually interview these folks! Anyway, from what I remember, the common thread among them was that they fell in love with their field at a very early age. This passion for their field was what motivated them through their career and lead to accomplishments/successes.

So my guess would be that it isn't swimming that makes a person successful, but character traits that lead you to your passion. Those traits, intellectual curiosity, organizational skills, determination, to name a few, may also self select people to choose swimming as their form of physical exercise. Maybe not in so many words, but how many times have we heard on this forum that swimming is a person's passion? If there is any link between a successful career and swimming then it must be due to the passion one feels for both.

Scansy
November 5th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Well said Laineybug - at some point in this thread, I tried to say that, but stumbled all over myself and it came out like crud.:(

Swimmer Bill
November 5th, 2004, 04:59 PM
OK, so let's pose a new question:

How does swimming benefit you in your work life?

~SB

laineybug
November 5th, 2004, 05:38 PM
Thank you Paul

stacey
November 5th, 2004, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Swimmer Bill

How does swimming benefit you in your work life?


Swimming at lunch keeps me out of office politics.


Actually, swimming really helps me to manage work-related stress.
I'm pretty new to swimming (since August), so I often focus completely on one small aspect of my technique, then switch it up. The ability to maintain singular concentration while simultaneously carrying out a plethora of other actions benefits many aspects of my life.

Also, staying relaxed, but going *fast* is what I'm aiming for, in the pool and at work.

Scansy
November 5th, 2004, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Swimmer Bill
OK, so let's pose a new question:

How does swimming benefit you in your work life?

~SB

When I swim before work - a really hard workout - I get the swimmer's high. My mind is so focused and I get sooooo much done in the first 3-4 hours. If I swim at lunch, I get the same effect in the afternoon.

swimlong
November 6th, 2004, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by geochuck
I personally did not like to work for someone who tells me what to do. I did my own thing and I am pretty succesful. I owned and operated a swim school, and made some good bucks. When I moved to western Canada my wife and I worked with children in crisis, we loved our work. Even though I am 71 now we still work about six months with kids. But in the winter I go to Mexico and run swim clinics for some begginers, some master swimmers, and some college swimmers. It is great fun and not only that I get fit myself and still earn a few bucks.

Am I more succesful than any one else, I don't think so but I love my life as it is, my wife and I are still together after 47 years, now that is what I call succesful... in this day and age.

George

swimlong
November 6th, 2004, 02:41 AM
I love my life as it is, my wife and I are still together after 47 years, now that is what I call succesful... in this day and age.

now that's success in my eyes.

swimlong
November 6th, 2004, 02:44 AM
sorry for the lame last two post. I was trying to quote the last sentence of geochuck's, then comment on it. Guess my nickname could be "technofeeb"- I can't figure out the quoting system!

cinc3100
November 8th, 2004, 10:44 PM
Well, on average yes. Many master swimmers have at least a 4 year degree. There are some well-paid blue collar workers that swim. But master swimmers as someone stated probably don't do any better than other groups that exercise on a regular basis.

ande
May 12th, 2005, 04:19 PM
many of the swimmers I swam with in college have wound up being very successful

i think it's because they know how to set goals, plan, work hard, and play hard,

ande


Originally posted by Swimmer Bill
Hi Everyone,

I'm writing an article about swimmers and career success, and I'm wondering what you all have to say on the topic.

Do you think swimmers achieve greater career success than other types of athletes?

If so, why?

I'm going to run a poll, but I also welcome responses here in this forum or privately.

Thanks in advance for your responses,
Bill

Leonard Jansen
May 13th, 2005, 08:17 AM
Any intelligent person who has some discipline and a bit of luck, can have "success". What I think is strange, though, is that the definition of success usually revolves around career/money/material things. You can use your intellect to make money, but you can also use it to make time. I've deliberately chosen to not ride the career elevator, still make a good living (although not nearly what I could), and have plenty of time to do what I want to do. It drives my parents crazy that I'm not "president of IBM or something like that", but accumulating a bunch of stuff and then dropping dead of a heart attack in my early-50's doesn't seem to be the best use of my life.

Bigger/better/faster/more isn't always bigger/better/faster/more.

Your mileage may vary.

-LBJ

Scansy
May 13th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Leonard Jansen
Any intelligent person who has some discipline and a bit of luck, can have "success". What I think is strange, though, is that the definition of success usually revolves around career/money/material things. You can use your intellect to make money, but you can also use it to make time. I've deliberately chosen to not ride the career elevator, still make a good living (although not nearly what I could), and have plenty of time to do what I want to do. It drives my parents crazy that I'm not "president of IBM or something like that", but accumulating a bunch of stuff and then dropping dead of a heart attack in my early-50's doesn't seem to be the best use of my life.

Bigger/better/faster/more isn't always bigger/better/faster/more.

Your mileage may vary.

-LBJ

You are soooooo right. With Trump having his show now, a lot of people are using the old "I wish I was him." line. Not me. Too much constant work and always being driven. He can never let his guard down. He can never let up.

I try to live life like this...... Wok hard and play hard. (I guess swimming is the mix of both!) I always tell my son (12 years old and real difficult to get to do school work) that he needs to do the things he has to do so that he can do the things he wants to do.

sibleyclan
May 13th, 2005, 10:03 AM
"I always tell my son (12 years old and real difficult to get to do school work) that he needs to do the things he has to do so that he can do the things he wants to do."

Too right!! I've got twin girls that just turned 13 less than a month ago & we try to stress the same to them. They're usually pretty good about their swim practice (although they're a litle leary about their pending move to the Senior group!) but a little lax about chores & stuff. Even when we make a reward contingent upon successful completion of a task (that they have to do regardless) in a certain amount of time, they sometimes mess around until they lose the reward & still have to do the task!! They've both got 96 averages in school but like your son, it's hard to get them to do homework. (They do enjoy getting the academic rewadrs though! We try to point out the casue & effect.)

ande
May 13th, 2005, 10:17 AM
when you ponder "what is success?"

I recently read this and I think it is an awesome answer

“Your heart, my friend, is the size of a stadium. If you try to fill it with small things – a new car, a vacation, a promotion at work, a bigger home, a stock portfolio – a mournful echo will fill your life. But if you fill your stadium with all of humanity and search for ways to make their lives better each day, you will find yourself in the right place at the right time, doing the right thing in the right way. Serendipity will come to stay.”
+ Roy Williams from one of his Monday Morning Memos
http://www.wizardacademy.com/memo.asp

Ande

Swimmer Bill
May 13th, 2005, 11:21 AM
Wow! Where were all of you when I was writing the article? It was published many months ago, but this seems like an interesting discussion, regardless.

The comment about Trump was interesting to me. I've never seen The Apprentice before last night. While I was watching, my impression was that he has other people doing the work for him. I'm sure his schedule is very full, and I'm sure he makes some important decisions and appears at multiple special events each day. It takes a lot of time to get places in Manhattan, so he probably spends a lot of time in the limo. It also takes a lot of time to do a television show. When I appeared on the Food Network, we shot from 9-5 for about 22 minutes of footage.

SB

jim clemmons
May 13th, 2005, 11:44 AM
Originally quoted by Scansy:


I try to live life like this...... Wok hard and play hard. (I guess swimming is the mix of both!) I always tell my son (12 years old and real difficult to get to do school work) that he needs to do the things he has to do so that he can do the things he wants to do.

Wok hard

Are you trying to relate to Bill's affinity for cooking?

Jim

Scansy
May 13th, 2005, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by jim clemmons
Originally quoted by Scansy:



Wok hard

Are you trying to relate to Bill's affinity for cooking?

Jim

Absolutely! What good is life without a little stir fry!:D

geochuck
May 13th, 2005, 02:20 PM
How do we measure success. I am 72 May the 19th. I had my ups and downs, 6 kids all grown up and all successful at what they are doing. I lived the way I wanted to with my wife (Chuckie) 48 years in June. I live in Paradise, Ladner BC from March to November, and in Mexico from Nov. to Mar. What more could I want?

George

Beards247
May 13th, 2005, 03:44 PM
Swimmer Bill -

This is a great question, and something of a talking point when I speak to college age "kids" about masters swimming. Goes something like this:

There are at least a few studies floating around the communications or marketing committee that cover the socio-economic status of swimmers being notably higher than the national average. I couple this with Mom's mantra drilled into all of us (who you hang out with is a reflection of you) to convince young adults swimming is not only good for them, but it puts them around people who are doing it right - and it may even be a smart networking move! I know at my pool, there is occassional proffessional trading... you gotta be there to be there.
As for if swimming is better than other activities, I really don't think so. But I do think that not only do successful people excersize for health and stress relief, I think excersize brings a level of disipline that is not achievable through other means - making someone even more successful on a variety of levels.

NKMD
May 14th, 2005, 12:43 AM
I recently gave a talk on goal setting to my former club, Iolani Swim Club in Honolulu, HI. I had a great time talking to kids, who enjoy the sport of swimming and who are willing to work hard. Most of these kids excel in academics and play other sports as well.

To say that swimmers are more successful athletes....
I would have to say no-if you base success on money and exposure.

However, I do feel that athletes in general are successful individuals. In my opinion athletes are more organized by balancing family with school and/or work. We are succeessful individuals because we set goals for ourselves. The decisions that we make on a daily basis effect how we reach our goals. And how we met challenges along the way make us stronger and better individuals.

I don't feel that measurement of success is based on how many awrds someone wins, how much money someone makes.....

Success is doing something that you love.........SWIM...

That is challenging for a lot of master swimmers. Finding the time to swim in your busy schedule and staying healthy.

I told the kids that they have it easy. Of course they all laughed.

Do you have goals..........

My goal is to keep on swimming........I am so amazed at the older swimmers, you are awesome.

Scansy
May 14th, 2005, 06:59 AM
Originally posted by NKMD
.....

Do you have goals..........

My goal is to keep on swimming........I am so amazed at the older swimmers, you are awesome.

I agree 100%. I want to be swimming at 70, 80, 90... And of course I mean real swimming, not water walking, noodling, etc. I really believe that the more you use your body (and mind) the longer it will remain usable into retirement.

craiglll@yahoo.com
May 14th, 2005, 12:31 PM
Tere are two studies that I've read. One was written int he 1980's comparing NCAA atheletes who graduated. I htink htat the conclusion was that football players who did actually graduate were more likely to have high incomes. Swimmers, baseball players and softball players were most ikely to go o graduate school. Tennis players,who graduated, though, were the all time acheivers in both income and prestige of their careers. They were, in the article, the most likely to become lawyers and doctors. You must remember this was in the early 1980's when lawyers weren't so disliked

geochuck
May 14th, 2005, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
You must remember this was in the early 1980's when lawyers weren't so disliked
In Hamilton Ontario there was a hotel named THE HONEST LAWYER the Law society made them change the name.

George my other web site www.triswimmer.com

DAP
May 14th, 2005, 01:18 PM
When I was in college, my electrical engineering class had four athletes from the swim team out of 36 total EE students. There were no other sports represented in my class. It left me with the impression that swimmers were smarter and more disciplined than the other athletes. Engineering was tough, and the additional responsibilities of swim meets and practices definitely required discipline.

When I would take the easier introductory humanities courses, that's where I would find the football, basketball, and baseball players.

Karen Duggan
May 14th, 2005, 06:14 PM
I have noticed here that there are so many different definitions of success, and I tend to agree...

That being said, I'd also like to throw out that I bet people are a lot more successful than they think they are- it often seems that people are so busy (sorry for the coming cliche) "keeping up with the Jones's" that they don't take the time to enjoy, or appreciate, what they ALREADY have. And I'm not just talking about money. Success is everywhere and you probably don't have to look very far!

In my life, in the last five years I have had no less than 20 traumatic experiences and, according to my husband's law enforcement background, I would have been a candidate for suicide not once, but twice! As you can see I survived, and nope, didn't try it :p

Things are starting to settle back down in my (our) life. I am starting to notice that I am very lucky, fortunate, or whatever word of choice you'd like to use. I am very happily married (10 years this August), I have three extremely happy children who we absolutely adore, daily silliness, I have a job I love, a large house (compared to the very small one we started out in), one dog, a large extended family that is happy and healthy, wonderful teammates on WCM, and perhaps the most important- a God and faith that make all of the other things possible. In a word- happiness.

Are ther still things I'd like to accomplish? Absolutely. What life would be worth living if you weren't always trying to live it? But I have come to realize that, in my eyes anyway, I am not only happy, but very blessed.

So, if being happy and blessed are measurements of success, then, so far, I'm there :)

craiglll@yahoo.com
May 16th, 2005, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by DAP
When I was in college, my electrical engineering class had four athletes from the swim team out of 36 total EE students. There were no other sports represented in my class. It left me with the impression that swimmers were smarter and more disciplined than the other athletes. Engineering was tough, and the additional responsibilities of swim meets and practices definitely required discipline.

When I would take the easier introductory humanities courses, that's where I would find the football, basketball, and baseball players.
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. What level was your engineering class that you m ention? How did you do when you took higher level social studies classes. I know where I went to college the 400 level Anthropoly and History classs were considered some of the most difficult classes on campus. If you weere at a Liberal Arts college or university, you probably found a very wide range of students in the lowere level classes at all levels.

Personally, I found electrical engineering to be very boring becausee it ws concerned with such a limited subject matter.

craiglll@yahoo.com
May 16th, 2005, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan

That being said, I'd also like to throw out that I bet people are a lot more successful than they think they are- it often seems that people are so busy (sorry for the coming cliche) "keeping up with the Jones's" that they don't take the time to enjoy, or appreciate, what they ALREADY have. And I'm not just talking about money. Success is everywhere and you probably don't have to look very far!


I wish that I had read this before I posted. On Saturday night, I was at a cocktail party with some people I've known between 30 to 25 years. One of the guys I was with I'm a very good friend. We marvelled at how different we were and how much we had experienced in the past 25 years. Yet it truly seemed that many peole had been doing the same thing since we were young. It made me really look at what I define as success. Certainly, it isn't what most peole would consider a good life.

DAP
May 16th, 2005, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
I'm not sure what you mean by this statement. What level was your engineering class that you m ention? How did you do when you took higher level social studies classes.
Since the thread is about swimmers and "greater career success", I was just showing a personal example of a career oriented curriculum (electrical engineering) where there was a high percentage of swimmers. I was not a swimmer at the time, but it was notable that the only type of athlete represented in my engineering classes were swimmers. That covered freshman through senior years.

Engineers were not required to take the high level social studies classes, so I can't comment on that, but in the low level introductory classes, that's where I would find other athletes from football, baseball, and basketball, none of whom I ever saw in engineering classes.

It was an interesting contrast that I witnessed personally. It was just meant to add another piece of data to the debate about whether swimmers achieve greater career success. I don't think that generalization has been decided conclusively. It was not meant to debate the virtues of various college curriculums.

craiglll@yahoo.com
May 17th, 2005, 11:02 AM
It seems that you can only comment on the fact that you along with atheletes from sports were in the same class. Your statement is that you along with atheletes from other sports were in the same class . And you sasy you weren't a swimmer at the time. Were you involved in other atheletics? Do you know how much work the other atheletes put into their class? What their grades were? If they graduated?

It is very irreponsible of you to make your statement with the little bit of information you have.

SwiminONandON
May 17th, 2005, 11:26 AM
Don't waste your time wanting what you don't have, but remember everything you have now you once only wanted ... or something like that ...

DAP
May 17th, 2005, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com

It is very irreponsible of you to make your statement with the little bit of information you have. [/B]
I'm sorry if I offended you or others on this forum. That was not my intent at all, so you have my apologies if my comments were hurtful. Let's keep this a friendly place.