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Scansy
November 8th, 2004, 04:46 PM
I don't know if this story is true or not, but figured it would be of interest to everyone here.

msnbc.msn.com/id/6437288/ (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6437288/)

scyfreestyler
November 8th, 2004, 05:52 PM
Looks legit. Was it on msnbc or did somebody foreward it to you?

mattson
November 8th, 2004, 06:02 PM
Yeah, DUI is bad, but hopefully this incident will get it out of his system. (I remember my freshman year at college, when I was recruited at 3am, to help those who decided to test their alcohol limits for the first time. Scary stuff.)

On a lighter note, I noticed what really chilled Scansy's blood...

Phelps, wearing a Baltimore Ravens jersey,
Obviously, we need to start a fund, so Phelps can get a Steeler's jersey. :D

kaffrinn
November 8th, 2004, 06:29 PM
It looks like the story is true, SwimInfo also has it.

That's too bad - a lot of kids look up to him. But on the other hand, he's only 19, and everyone makes mistakes. Hopefully not only will he learn from his mistake, but the kids who look up to him can learn a lesson too.

Here's the story for everyone:

SALISBURY, Md. - Six-time Olympic champion Michael Phelps was arrested last week and charged with drunken driving.

A trooper saw the 19-year-old swimming sensation go through a stop sign Thursday night, state police said Monday. The trooper saw signs of intoxication and arrested Phelps for driving under the influence, police said.

Phelps also was charged with violation of a license restriction and failure to obey a stop sign. The legal drinking age in Maryland is 21.

“I want to say that last week I made a mistake. I wanted to share my feelings and I know that getting in a car with anything to drink is wrong, dangerous and is unacceptable,” Phelps told The Associated Press.

“I’m 19, but I was taught that no matter how old you are you should always take responsibility for your action, which I will do. I’m very sorry this happened.”

The swimmer from suburban Baltimore won eight medals at the Athens Olympics, including six golds.

Phelps, wearing a Baltimore Ravens jersey, was introduced to the crowd before the team’s game Sunday night.

Scansy
November 8th, 2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by 330man
Looks legit. Was it on msnbc or did somebody foreward it to you?

I followed a link from the Drudge Report.

Scansy
November 8th, 2004, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by mattson
Yeah, DUI is bad, but hopefully this incident will get it out of his system. (I remember my freshman year at college, when I was recruited at 3am, to help those who decided to test their alcohol limits for the first time. Scary stuff.)

On a lighter note, I noticed what really chilled Scansy's blood...

Obviously, we need to start a fund, so Phelps can get a Steeler's jersey. :D

Yeah - I wouldn't have even posted it if it wasn't for the Raven's jersey!:p

Seriously though, I got into all kinds of trouble at that age. I had a lot of fun my first couple of years at Penn State..... OK, I had fun for all five years. I thought I was invincible at that age. He now has 8 olympic medals so he may feel even more invincible than I did. What he did is wrong and I hope he learns a lesson. Better to be arrested than to hurt someone.

knelson
November 8th, 2004, 11:32 PM
Hope he learns his lesson. That's too bad, but I'm sure the majority of us have done something similar when we were his age. Maybe you were lucky enough not to get caught.

The other thing I was wondering about: shouldn't he be in Ann Arbor by now?

jpjackson76
November 9th, 2004, 07:58 AM
I saw it on http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137968,00.html this morning.

Hey he's 19 years old, and a human being what should we expect. We all make mistakes, his will be more costly if a sponsor pull away from him.

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by jpjackson76
Hey he's 19 years old, and a human being what should we expect. We all make mistakes, his will be more costly if a sponsor pull away from him.

Here's what we should expect, no one should drive drunk, period. This isn't a mistake, give me a break. I wonder if the ridiculous term "mistake" would have been used if he hit someone while running that stop sign?

A coddled athlete, making millions a year should have the sense to take a cab.

jpjackson76
November 9th, 2004, 08:26 AM
Aquageek I didn't mean to make lite of it, it's a serious crime, and I'd be madder than a old wet hen if my family was injured, or worse, if hit by a drunk driver.

What I should have said was making millions and being a gifted athlete doesn't make a person god like. Many people think athletes don't or shouldn't make mistakes, but we know they do. That being said they should be punished like everybody else, but we know different about that too, wouldn't you agree?

emmett
November 9th, 2004, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
Here's what we should expect, no one should drive drunk, period. This isn't a mistake, give me a break.

I agree with geek. Driving drunk is not and never has been a mistake. It is a crime - and potentially lethal at that. It should always be punished for the crime that it is. In my view, when a person makes a conscious choice to consume ANY amount of alcohol, knowing they may soon be behind the wheel, they become a menace.

Kids (and 19 is still a "kid") don't always make good choices - that's understandable. But when they make choices that endanger the rest of us they need to suffer the same consequences adults would suffer. Like it or not whatever happens to Phelps WILL have an effect on how many kids think about alcohol and driving.

Mark in MD
November 9th, 2004, 09:33 AM
The story broke here in Baltimore yesterday afternoon. And it's been on the media here ad nauseam all morning until I can repeat the script verbatim. We can debate all day what Aquaqeek and Jpjackson76 have said here as both of them have excellent points.

What Michael did was wrong, he's 19 and gonna make stupid mistakes and given his stature, should have know better. Also, he might lose some sponsorships. Given that, plus what it's going to cost him in legal fees here in Maryland (DUI/DWI representation ain't cheap here in Maryland or anywhere else, for that matter), not to mention facing a possible fine and/or possibly up to one year in some correctional facility and/or community service, I would hope that he will learn from this. Also, I would not want to be him to face his Mom and Dad with this.

The story here in the Baltimore Sun can be accessed by clicking here. (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/olympics/bal-te.md.phelps09nov09,1,5538706.story?coll=bal-home-headlines)

IMHO.

P.S.

Michael Phelps didn't make himself into a "god," the media and promoters did.


Originally posted by jpjackson76
Aquageek I didn't mean to make lite of it, it's a serious crime, and I'd be madder than a old wet hen if my family was injured, or worse, if hit by a drunk driver.

What I should have said was making millions and being a gifted athlete doesn't make a person god like. Many people think athletes don't or shouldn't make mistakes, but we know they do. That being said they should be punished like everybody else, but we know different about that too, wouldn't you agree?

born2fly
November 9th, 2004, 09:37 AM
This is a disappointment in that a lot of young kids look up to him. As for it being a mistake and he is sorry, I believe the only thing he is sorry for is getting caught. As a former police officer, I have seen up close and personal the results of DUI, and untill you have an infant pass away in your arms as a result of drunk driver, then you will think differnetly as it was just a mistake.

He made his choice and now he should be treated just as everyone. Prosecuted to full extent of law for first time offenders. He should also should be ordered by court to do public speaches on this experience, and if I were a sponsor, I would drop him like a bad habit.

Sorry for the vent, but this brings back bad memories and I do hope he does learn and that their are other alterternatives besides getting behind the wheel drunk.

emmett
November 9th, 2004, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by kaffrinn
Maybe what Michael Phelps did can be characterized as a crime, gravely wrong, and a mistake as well.

In our culture a "mistake" can easily be excused. A crime cannot. There is nothing about drunk driving that is in any way excusable - ever. When drunk driving is described as a "mistake" instead of as a "crime" we are simply asking for more of the same. Would you ever refer to getting drunk and going outside and shooting bullets indiscriminately around the neighborhood as a "mistake"? Drunk driving is no different.

craiglll@yahoo.com
November 9th, 2004, 10:28 AM
I don't know how to respond to this. In reality, it is none of my business.

emmett
November 9th, 2004, 10:36 AM
I wish it was none of my business. But I've got one son who currently looks up to Michael as a superhero and another who's at least pretty darned impressed by the guy. What happens here is, inescapably, going to have an effect on both my boys. I hope it will be the right effect.

knelson
November 9th, 2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by kaffrinn Should Phelps be suspended or fined by USA swimming? I think he should...it could send a message to not only him, but the kids in USA swimming...and give him time to think about the seriousness of what he did. [/B]

People here are saying that Michael should be treated just like anyone else regarding his drunk driving, and I agree. However, being fined by USA Swimming would not be in line with this. As far as I know, USA Swimming has never fined any other swimmer for something like this, so it would be singling Michael out just because he's a star.

born2fly
November 9th, 2004, 10:43 AM
In reality, it could be someones business if it goes to trial and people are chosen for the civic duty of being on the jury. Although I see a low profile, plead out to judge and take his punishement.

I am curious if anyone knows his alcohol level. Also just heard on raido reason he was drinking was because he is upset with his back problems and can not perform at level he has in past. Anyone else here this? Oh, and speaking of bullett emmet, doesn't Phelps drive one of the biggest ones, a SUV

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
I don't know how to respond to this. In reality, it is none of my business.

Of course, it's our business. First, what Phelps did is a crime, making it the public's business. Second, he endangered the lives of others, hence, it's our business.

This isn't a case of him drinking at home and falling off his deck and busting an ankle.

It's hard to believe there is anyone trying to rationalize this. He's underage drinking (not that I can cast too many stones on that one) and he's driving. Maybe he can swim to practice from now on cause that SUV is bye-bye.

scyfreestyler
November 9th, 2004, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by born2fly


I am curious if anyone knows his alcohol level. Also just heard on raido reason he was drinking was because he is upset with his back problems and can not perform at level he has in past. Anyone else here this?

I have not heard that but I can certainly understand how he might be upset. I don't know about his back injury but the DUI he can easily recover from.

scyfreestyler
November 9th, 2004, 11:44 AM
I wonder if this will shorten his stay on the Wheaties box?

Tom Ellison
November 9th, 2004, 11:46 AM
Gosh, I am surprised some of you folks haven't got the rope and gallows out by now....

swimr4life
November 9th, 2004, 11:48 AM
I'm very disappointed. Hopefully something good can come out of this. I coach a lot of kids that idolize Michael. This will help them see that he is indeed human and capable of making very bad choices. I hope Michael will realize the far-reaching consequences of his actions and do some heavy duty public service announcements..especially to the MTV crowd. I made the mistake of priding myself on being part of a sport that didn't have young hot shot stars that thought they were above the law. Hopefully Michael will not become one of these. I don't think he will. I do believe he should be treated just like anyone else under the same circumstances..not harsher and not easier. I know some will disagree with me, but look what happened to Martha Stewart. I believe she was treated harsher because of her celebrity status. I hope this doesn't happen to Michael. :(

knelson
November 9th, 2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
It's hard to believe there is anyone trying to rationalize this. He's underage drinking (not that I can cast too many stones on that one) and he's driving.

Why is it hard to believe? I've got to believe many of us here have driven drunk at some point. People tend to do lots of stupid things in their teens and twenties. Does that make it excusable? No. But it does make it understandable.

I can't in good faith chastise Michael Phelps for a behavior I've done. Just becuase I never got caught doesn't make it any better. Michael should be punished just like anyone else accused of DUI, but I'm with Tom Ellison that we don't need to hang the guy because of it.

Seagurl51
November 9th, 2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by swimr4life
I made the mistake of priding myself on being part of a sport that didn't have young hot shot stars that thought they were above the law.

From reading the stories in the papers and the quotes he has given, I think he knows that what he did was extremely wrong. I had the chance to meet him and talk to him for a minute and he seems like the kind of person that will take this experience and learn from it. If you were celebrity in this situation, I don't think anyone would do it again. Not only is he in trouble with the law, but his parents, his fans, his sponsors, his coach. He may have done one stupid thing, but I don't think he's dumb enough to do it again considering everything that he has on the line. He is at the start of an amazing career and I hope that one speed bump won't stop him.

~Kyra

swimr4life
November 9th, 2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by knelson
Why is it hard to believe? I've got to believe many of us here have driven drunk at some point. People tend to do lots of stupid things in their teens and twenties. Does that make it excusable? No. But it does make it understandable.

I can't in good faith chastise Michael Phelps for a behavior I've done. Just becuase I never got caught doesn't make it any better. Michael should be punished just like anyone else accused of DUI, but I'm with Tom Ellison that we don't need to hang the guy because of it.

I agree! "Let him that is without sin cast the first stone."

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 12:18 PM
I find these comments incredible. The only reason people aren't more outraged is because he didn't hurt anyone but himself, and probably only financially, at that. If he had hurt someone, you think your tunes might change? The line between driving drunk and driving drunk and killing someone is very thin. My god, he ran a stop sign in an SUV. Would it still be this "youth and carefree" excuse you folks are using if someone had been hurt?

We had two local teenagers die locally from drunk driving recently. Guess that was just a mistake and a speed bump on the road of life. This isn't an "experience", this is a crime.

Why don't you ask MADD how they feel about first time offenders for DUI. They might not consider it a mistake, especially if they've buried a child.

scyfreestyler
November 9th, 2004, 12:25 PM
What's done is done. We don't need to drag him through the mud because of his mistake. I swear some people make first time DUI offenders out to be satan reincarnated. It's bad, yes. But I think it is safe to say that he learned from it and won't do it again. I don't think any kids will look at Phelps and say "Wow, DUI sounds like fun, let's go get loaded and drive around town". As far as him being fined by USA Swimming, that is ridiculous.

justforfun
November 9th, 2004, 12:26 PM
I was very disappointed to hear this story. Swimming has benefited from such good publicity recently with the Olympics and World Champs. Compared to other sports, our star athletes are generally seen as respectful, intelligent people who work hard, play fair and serve as good role models. That is certainly still true.

Unfortunately, something like this was bound to happen with the increased public visibility of someone like Michael Phelps. I hope he does the right thing, as others have suggested, and take the opportunity to counsel other young people about the dangers of drunk driving.

My own children are too young for this now, but what a teaching opportunity for parents and coaches...not to condemn Michael, but to strongly condemn his action in front of young people so that they may be positively influenced by this unfortunate event.

Rob Copeland
November 9th, 2004, 12:26 PM
First, I’ll jump on the bandwagon and state that driving under the influence is a crime and in my opinion it is not a mistake; a conscious decision is made to drink and a conscious decision is made to drive a vehicle.

But when I see comments like “Of course, it's our business. First, what Phelps did is a crime, making it the public's business. Second, he endangered the lives of others…” I begin to wonder.

“what Phelps did is a crime” and “Should Phelps be suspended or fined by USA swimming? I think he should” – I was unaware that he was already found guilty??? Albeit some of the comments attributed to him infer guilt. We are each entitled to our opinions regarding his innocence or guilt, but wouldn’t it be nice to hear the facts first? This reminds me of some of the rants against Amy Van Dyken that followed her grand jury testimony in the Balco case.

“what Phelps did is a crime, making it the public's business” – If a crime was committed, shouldn’t that be the business of the judicial system?

“Of course, it's our business.” – Well I guess that depends on how you define “our business”. Michael is a public figure and his successes and failures are of interest to a great many people. Is it of great interest to me? Absolutely! Is it my business? No, at least not based on my definition of my business. Like Emmett, I have children swimming in USA-Swimming and they both are in awe of Michael. Last night we talked about this story and the importance of being prepared to accept the consequences for your actions. Hopefully this sent a powerful message to them. And as Emmett said, I hope it will be the right effect.

“he endangered the lives of others” – I did not see anything in any of the articles that reported this fact. However, I will agree that every time anyone drives a car, they are endangering the lives of others and that this risk increases after consumption of alcohol. But according to the MSN story Phelps was charged with DUI, violation of a license restriction and failure to obey a stop sign.

knelson
November 9th, 2004, 12:35 PM
I wonder what the license restriction was (is)? Anyone know? I know some states have restrictions on teen drivers, but I can't imagine they apply to someone 19.

EDIT: Another thing to consider is many states have a "zero tolerance" policy for underage drivers. In other words, you can get a DUI with a BAC of only .02%. I haven't heard yet what Phelps' BAC was, but just something to keep in mind before we start accusing him of being drunk.

scyfreestyler
November 9th, 2004, 12:40 PM
The license restriction might just be no drinking until age 21.

Guvnah
November 9th, 2004, 01:07 PM
Phelps doesn't have to "learn" anything from this. What 19-year-old doesn't already know that this behavior is wrong.

He is standing up, admitting he did it, and will bear whatever consequense comes of this. I doubt there will be a jury trial here. His lawyer will appear before the judge -- maybe with him there, maybe not. He will be fined. Probably will be assigned to some sort of alcohol awareness class (as if he will really learn something from that.) He will get a crapload of points assigned to his license. Probably any additional moving violations will result in the suspension of his license, but as it stands now he will probably keep his driving priveleges.

And that will be that from the legal aspect. Just like any other 19-year-old who does the same thing.

From what I've seen so far, he will NOT take the standard road of denial that other young sports stars do. (Consider basketball's Carmello Anthony who was caught with less-than-one-ounce of pot at an airport. "Not mine! 'A friend' put it in my bag...") Phelps will probably have no qualms fielding questions from the media for years to come over this incident. And he will look the camera in the lens and tell the audience, "Learm from my experience. Even a big-time swimmer is not immune to the bite of the law. This cost me a small fortune in fines and insurance costs. It cost me this-and-that endorsement. The law now watches me like a hawk. One more screw-up and I lose my license. Kids, don't mess with behavior like this."

I can't think of a more positive outcome from this incident that something like that. And I can't think of another superstar athlete who would do this the way I think Phelps will do it.

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 01:21 PM
It just shows anyone can be an idiot. I drink on occasion but if I do, I don't drive. Let him face the conseqences of his actions if he goes to jail, it is not punishment it just the consequence of drinking and driving.

George

Leonard Jansen
November 9th, 2004, 01:24 PM
Phelps committed two crimes: Underage drinking and DUI. He deserves to get the same consequences as any other member of society in the same situation - no more and no less. That he is a "role model" is a consequence of society placing a strange added-value on athletes, most of whom have clay feet, and should not factor into sentencing. Hopefully, he will realize that, strange or not, some people do place a greater worth on his actions and "go the extra mile" to explain to same the potential consequences of what he did. He has always seemed like a class-act and I'd be willing to lay $ on the line that this is a one-shot screw-up where, fortunately, no one got hurt.

Edward The Head
November 9th, 2004, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by knelson
I wonder what the license restriction was (is)? Anyone know? I know some states have restrictions on teen drivers, but I can't imagine they apply to someone 19.

EDIT: Another thing to consider is many states have a "zero tolerance" policy for underage drivers. In other words, you can get a DUI with a BAC of only .02%. I haven't heard yet what Phelps' BAC was, but just something to keep in mind before we start accusing him of being drunk.

I'm not sure what the restrictions are here in Maryland any more as they changed them. I don't think that at 19 there are any restrictions, but I don't know 100% any more.

As for BAC, I think it is 0.02% for anyone under 21, or it was when I learned to drive 16 years ago. They are much harder on underage drinking and driving, which is good, so it's impossible to know how much he had been drinking.

Having said that, I do think what he did was wrong, but if he only had one drink that's a lot different then having more then one. I just hope he learns from this, as do other people.

Scansy
November 9th, 2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by emmett
I agree with geek. Driving drunk is not and never has been a mistake. It is a crime - and potentially lethal at that. It should always be punished for the crime that it is. In my view, when a person makes a conscious choice to consume ANY amount of alcohol, knowing they may soon be behind the wheel, they become a menace.

Kids (and 19 is still a "kid") don't always make good choices - that's understandable. But when they make choices that endanger the rest of us they need to suffer the same consequences adults would suffer. Like it or not whatever happens to Phelps WILL have an effect on how many kids think about alcohol and driving.

I don't think anyone suggested that he get off free. Of course he should be punished the same as any 19 year old would be. But it is a mistake. He should serve his punishment ( I don't know what that would be ) and then move on..

hooked-on-swimming
November 9th, 2004, 01:31 PM
[
SOME OF YOU, GUYS, HERE sound like pure saints, I swear.Tell me honestly you never in your ENTIRE LIFE got in your car after drinking 3 beers or so... If you did you are no better than MIchael even if you were not pulled over for DUI(just got lucky then)Because these days THAT IS ALL IT TAKES to be tested over the legal limit.These days you can put a drop of alcohol in your system and be busted for DUI.Give the kid a break!!!THe news like to make a mountain out of a molehill to make it exciting and readable 'cause it involves a star.
Everyone is so good accusing others, but the question is:do you have the right to do so?have you never drunken when under 21 or got in a car after at least a beer?If you did than I think you should not even say anything in this regard, 'cause you'd be a hypocrite.
By saying that I am by no means justifying Michael's case, that is wrong, he slipped, but I think we all have in our lifes, no one's perfect.So stop playing a judge and better check your own closet, 'cause I am sure you have enough dirty linen there....

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 01:38 PM
Guvnah:

I almost up chucked (or geochucked) at your post. Without knowing any facts, you have compared Carmelo Anthony to Phelps and called Phelps the better man.

Carmelo Anthony broke the law, just like Phelps did. However, Anthony was caught with pot boarding an airplane. Phelps consumed alcohol and jumped in a 3 ton moving vehicle that he was piloting and ran a stop sign. Who do you think posed the bigger threat at time of arrest?

Then, we have hooked-on-swimming saying we are making too big a deal out of this. Wonder how folks who have lost family members to drunk drivers feel about that statement?

I'm not saying Phelps should be hung for this but it's a hell of a lot more than some mistake or bump in the road.

Seagurl51
November 9th, 2004, 01:44 PM
I agree, very well put Hooked. We don't need to drag him through the mud because he made a slip up. We don't even know the whole story. Since he is underage, the DUI could simply because he drank at all, he could have had half a beer. He may have ran the stop sign because he didn't see it, it was late, he was tired, it was a new road and he didn't know it was there. We don't know for a fact that he ran that sign because he was drunk. There are so many factors that are unknown that we need to know all of them before you can tear him apart for making a human error.

~Kyra

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Driving under the influence is now nothing more than a slip up - amazing. Driving tired and not paying attention is now an excuse for running stop signs. And, let me understand this better, drinking and driving under age is human error? From where I stand that's a tad more than human error.

hooked-on-swimming
November 9th, 2004, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Guvnah:



Then, we have hooked-on-swimming saying we are making too big a deal out of this. Wonder how folks who have lost family members to drunk drivers feel about that statement?

I'm not saying Phelps should be hung for this but it's a hell of a lot more than some mistake or bump in the road.

I did not say it is not a big deal, 'cause it is... I just urged you, guys, to think what you did and did not in your life regarding to drinking or drinking and driving and if you really have the right make some statements, since you might be no better.We will all see a mouse in someone else's mouth but won't notice an elefant in ours ...

gull
November 9th, 2004, 01:58 PM
It's kind of like the Steve Martin routine (about not paying taxes): I forgot drinking and driving is both dangerous and against the law. Then, if someone asks how you could possibly forget something like that, just say,"Well excuuuuuuse me!"

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 01:59 PM
Some places if you are DUI your vehicle is confiscated, you go to jail for I year. Our BC premier was lucky he was caught drinking in Hawaii where it was not a criminal offence. If he had been driving in BC he would have been charged with a criminal offence. So I guess drinking and driving can either be a criminal offence or a misdemeanor it all depends on where you are.

Hooked-on I guess it is OK to drink and drive as long as you don't get caught.

George

EyeoreSAM
November 9th, 2004, 02:09 PM
It isn't ok to drink and drive, but I'm am sure that during many peoples college days they are guilty. I'm sure that not everyone posting was an angel in college or even earlier for that matter. How quickly people forget once they have been away from that life for a while.

hooked-on-swimming
November 9th, 2004, 02:09 PM
AQUAGEEK, i HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU: have you ever run a stop-light in your life without noticing(although you would not know unless the officer pulled you over and told you that), ever got a speeding ticket or were just speeding and got away with it, ever changed lanes without showing your blinkers, ever changed lanes too soon, 'cause you realised you are about to miss an exit, ever rushed to work being very tired(lack of sleep or whatnot), ever had a drop af alcohol(no matter what amount) and drove, ever drunk when under 21, ever tried to bfly through the yellow light before it turns red, ETC., ETC., ETC.All these things can put other people's lifes in danger without you realising that, and the list continues.Now tell me honestly you are clear of all these and then I will listen to every word you preach, otherwise I think we should correct our behavior first rather than trying to correct Michael's which he is responsible for himself(and realises it!)
IF WE ALL KEEP CLOSER ATTENTION TO WHAT WE DO RATHER THAN LOOKING INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S ACTIONS THIS WORLD WOULD BE SO MUCH SAFER!!!!

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
I did not say it is not a big deal, 'cause it is... I just urged you, guys, to think what you did and did not in your life regarding to drinking or drinking and driving and if you really have the right make some statements, since you might be no better.We will all see a mouse in someone else's mouth but won't notice an elefant in ours ...

The test is not whether or not I have or have not done it, and subsequently gotten away with it. Everyone knows drinking and driving is wrong and dangerous, well except some on this forum. Stand up, take responsibility for your actions, stop making silly excuses.

Mark in MD
November 9th, 2004, 02:16 PM
I find the comments from those outside of Maryland on Phelps' news item interesting. However, being one who lives within the boundaries of the State of Maryland and from my professional experience, please allow me to comment some of things already said.

Regarding license restrictions in Maryland and DUI/DWI, if you are convicted of DUI or DWI, you may have your license suspended (for a time determined by the judge), revoked or restricted (alcohol restriction, driving restriction like may drive to and from work). If Phelps was driving against a restriction on his license, it could be for something like the requirement for glasses or contact lenses.
Maryland is no "pushover" for DUI/DWI offenses. If the judge in Salisbury, Maryland (which is the County seat of Wicomico County in Maryland's eastern shore) "throw the book" at Michael, just remember the maximum penalties already stated in the press. The up to $1,000 fine and/or assignment to drive rehabilitation and/or assignment to Drinking Driver Monitor Program and/or up to 1 year in imprisonment in the county's detention center and/or assignment to community service are all at the judge disposal. And, there's the fines for running the stop sign and points, plus the points for a conviction of either DUI or DWI. Judges in smaller Maryland Counties tend to be very conservative, especially to those miscreants not "from around here" and don't take a liking to outsides messing around in their communities and posing a threat to the public.
Judges here take a dim view of defendants, especially those with stature, who don't show up for trials.
I agree that Mr. Phelps needs to accept the consequences of his stupidity and pay with whatever is meeted out to him by the court. However, if this make him realize, once and for all, that this type of behavior is not acceptable for anyone, then all the better.
Drinking and driving is a serious offense, nonetheless; my past experience with victims and offenders alike have reminded me of this.
There is one thing we need to remember in the United States, is that one is innocent until proven guilty. I am sure we all agree the seriousness of this, but permit the Maryland courts adjudicate Phelps' guilt or innocence.

born2fly
November 9th, 2004, 02:17 PM
Comparing not using a turn signal when switching lanes to drunk driving? What he did was a criminal offense, deal with it. I will just wait to see him on a budlight commercial.

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
IF WE ALL KEEP CLOSER ATTENTION TO WHAT WE DO RATHER THAN LOOKING INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S ACTIONS THIS WORLD WOULD BE SO MUCH SAFER!!!!

Apparently, this does not apply to those who drive drunk, they are excused from self evaluation.

Thanks for yelling, really helps get the point across.

knelson
November 9th, 2004, 02:20 PM
Michael Phelps: putting the BAC in NBAC.

Jay Leno eat your heart out :)

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
AQUAGEEK, i HAVE A QUESTION FOR YOU: have you ever run a stop-light in your life without noticing(although you would not know unless the officer pulled you over and told you that), ever got a speeding ticket or were just speeding and got away with it, ever changed lanes without showing your blinkers, ever changed lanes too soon, 'cause you realised you are about to miss an exit, ever rushed to work being very tired(lack of sleep or whatnot), ever had a drop af alcohol(no matter what amount) and drove, ever drunk when under 21, ever tried to bfly through the yellow light before it turns red, ETC., ETC., ETC.All these things can put other people's lifes in danger without you realising that, and the list continues.Now tell me honestly you are clear of all these and then I will listen to every word you preach, otherwise I think we should correct our behavior first rather than trying to correct Michael's which he is responsible for himself(and realises it!)
IF WE ALL KEEP CLOSER ATTENTION TO WHAT WE DO RATHER THAN LOOKING INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S ACTIONS THIS WORLD WOULD BE SO MUCH SAFER!!!! I learned my lesson about drunk driving coming home from a swim meet. A drunk driver crossed over the road and hit my car head on, five other swimmers in my car were fortunate just minor injuries. My car a total loss.

George

jroddin
November 9th, 2004, 02:26 PM
From Aquageek:
"Stand up, take responsibility for your actions, stop making silly excuses."

Is that not EXACTLY what Phelps did when called by a reporter immediately after the press found out?

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by jroddin
From Aquageek:
"Stand up, take responsibility for your actions, stop making silly excuses."

Is that not EXACTLY what Phelps did when called by a reporter immediately after the press found out? Wait and see if he pleads guilty or not guilty.

George

hooked-on-swimming
November 9th, 2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
The test is not whether or not I have or have not done it, and subsequently gotten away with it. Everyone knows drinking and driving is wrong and dangerous, well except some on this forum. Stand up, take responsibility for your actions, stop making silly excuses.

I absolutely agree that drinking and driving is wrong and should not be done.I do not do it(well, I almost never drink at all now), but have done it a few times in the past (never got DUI, though) and thought about what I have done and made it a rule never ever to get in a car after any amount of alcohol.
And the test is exactly about wether or not we have done it, because it all starts with yourself - if everyone tried to straighten out their own act than we would have ZERO drinking and driving problems.
And I do not think I have the right to say anything in Michael's matter, 'cause I did it at least once in my own life and was no better...He is the one to correct his own act.
So "clean up" yourself and the world will be better..

gull
November 9th, 2004, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
IF WE ALL KEEP CLOSER ATTENTION TO WHAT WE DO RATHER THAN LOOKING INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S ACTIONS THIS WORLD WOULD BE SO MUCH SAFER!!!!

Unless of course the other person is DRIVING DRUNK AND RUNS A STOP SIGN IN A BUSY INTERSECTION (behind the wheel of a large SUV.)

hooked-on-swimming
November 9th, 2004, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Apparently, this does not apply to those who drive drunk, they are excused from self evaluation.

Thanks for yelling, really helps get the point across.

I am not yelling - I am highlighting my main thought...

gull
November 9th, 2004, 02:36 PM
I was yelling. It's a BAD HABIT of mine.

hooked-on-swimming
November 9th, 2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by born2fly
Comparing not using a turn signal when switching lanes to drunk driving? What he did was a criminal offense, deal with it. I will just wait to see him on a budlight commercial.

Absolutely!!!I had a fender bender, because the guy in the left lane just decided to change lanes without blinking and then slammed on the brakes right in front of me, because he squeezed in between me and another carin front of me.Had I known he wanted to change lanes I would have slowed down and given him some more room...

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by jroddin
From Aquageek:
"Stand up, take responsibility for your actions, stop making silly excuses."

Is that not EXACTLY what Phelps did when called by a reporter immediately after the press found out?

Are you serious? He really took a lot of responsibility a week later when he was found out.

For the record, it's absolutely ludicrous to base a crime on whether a single person has done it or not. There are right things and wrong things and the test is not whether you have personally done it.

SWinkleblech
November 9th, 2004, 02:58 PM
Three years ago when I was coming home from school after open house a drunk driver came at me and hit me. I was very fortunate that one, I was wearing my seat belt. If I hadn't I would of probally been worse off. I felt my van go out of control and it almost felt like it was going to roll over. I was also lucky that no one was driving behind the drunk driver because I ended up on the other side of the road. I was able to gain control of my van and pull over. The drunk driver did not stop until she was a good quarter of a mile up the road. When she was arressted she didn't even realize that she hit anyone. I some how came out of the accident with only a minor injury. How I don't know because if you had seen my van it was a different story.
If you think that someone drinking and driving is not my business, it is. To this day I still get scared when I see head lights coming at me. I wonder are they going to stay on their side or are they going to keep coming at me. I consider myself very lucky I wasn't hurt or even killed. Are you going to tell those who have lost family members to drunk drivers that it is not there business?

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 03:06 PM
I am just disappointed in my hero of the 2004 Olympics and feel sorry that he was such a goof.

George

born2fly
November 9th, 2004, 03:07 PM
Can't believe you would compare not using a turn signal to drunk driving. Im not going to argue moving violations with you, I have seen, cited people in past and heard every excuse in the book. Maybe you were driving to fast, perhaps you had a unsafe distance between you and car in front to begin with. Stop sugar coating the DUI, and call it like it is. This thread is starting to make me want to drink, and I don't drink!

Turn signal as serious as DUI, lol, good laugh for the end of my day.

dorothyrde
November 9th, 2004, 03:14 PM
I think Phelps made a mistake and is paying the consequences of it. Everyone, remember, he is still a kid and will make mistakes. Now if he does it again.........well then bring out the rope.

And lest you think I am light on drunk drivers, my son has a friend who was hit Sunday morning by a drunk driver and is in the hospital and his mother was killed.

I believe Michael is very lucky to have just run a stop sign without hurting anyone and maybe is learning a hard lesson without anyone getting injured. I wish the drunk who hit the friend had learned his lesson in this manner.

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
Now if he does it again.........well then bring out the rope.


You gotta be drinking while posting. So, the first one is free? Let's give him another chance to kill someone and then we can get serious about drinking and driving.

Maryyyyyy
November 9th, 2004, 03:19 PM
I just told an Italian friend here in Florence about this news (it's hit the swimming world here too...)

His response:

"What a jerk!"

I think what we need to teach our kids is that it is not cool to drink. Not only is it illegal, it is not cool to drink and drive. People who do so are losers. Look at what's happening to Mr. Phelps; whatever the outcome here, everyone will remember his moment as a loser.

I think that drinking, drinking heavily and even drinking and driving are glorified in our culture, and honestly, I think that it is wrong to glorify drinking. So, you got drunk? So what? You puked your guts out over the toilet all night? How gross. I'm glad I didn't.

People who drink and drive not ONLY break the law, they are also jerks and losers. If you did it when you were a kid, well, then, you were a jerk and a loser as a kid.

Grow up.

Alicat
November 9th, 2004, 03:19 PM
To all my family, friends, and fans:



I am very sorry. I made a mistake last week, a mistake with no excuses. I want to be clear: getting in a car with anything to drink is wrong; it's dangerous; and it's unacceptable. My parents taught me that no matter how tough a situation is, you must take responsibility for your actions, and I will do that. Again, I am very sorry.




Michael Phelps

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 03:26 PM
I for one forgive Michael for his mistake, I hope he decides like I did to stop drinking to excess after I made a fool of myself in front of the Queen... I have never had more than 3 drinks since that time after 3 I change over to soda water and lime and never did drink and drive.

George

Leonard Jansen
November 9th, 2004, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
I hope he decides like I did to stop drinking to excess after I made a fool of myself in front of the Queen...
George

This can't be passed over: Out with it, George.

-LBJ

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 03:44 PM
It is too embarrasing, nothing bad but really stupid. It is what happens when you drink 26 ounces of scotch mixed with a bottle of champaign. Waking upthe next morning in a tub of cold water and imagining the headlines in the paper Canadian swimmer drowns in bathtub

George

Scansy
November 9th, 2004, 03:51 PM
I'm with Jansen . . . details. We're all friends here.:rolleyes:

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Scansy
I'm with Jansen . . . details. We're all friends here.:rolleyes: I added details in an edit but not all. If you really want to know all I could tell but.....

George

hooked-on-swimming
November 9th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by born2fly
Can't believe you would compare not using a turn signal to drunk driving. Im not going to argue moving violations with you, I have seen, cited people in past and heard every excuse in the book. Maybe you were driving to fast, perhaps you had a unsafe distance between you and car in front to begin with. Stop sugar coating the DUI, and call it like it is. This thread is starting to make me want to drink, and I don't drink!

Turn signal as serious as DUI, lol, good laugh for the end of my day.

So if someone's not showing the turn signal resulted(which it can and so can drunk driving - I am not excusing drunk driving, for the record) in a fatality, would you still cal it good laugh for the end of the day?

mattson
November 9th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Maryyyyyy
People who drink and drive not ONLY break the law, they are also jerks and losers. If you did it when you were a kid, well, then, you were a jerk and a loser as a kid.

Ah, you are over in Italy. If more people felt that way here, maybe we wouldn't have a two-term president with a DUI (at age 30), and a vice-president with 2 DUIs.

gull
November 9th, 2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
I for one forgive Michael for his mistake, I hope he decides like I did to stop drinking to excess after I made a fool of myself in front of the Queen.

C'mon, who among us never got drunk in front of royalty when we were young?

USMSarah
November 9th, 2004, 05:04 PM
I'm just sad that this happened... I think the situation is interesting because Phelps has been trying so hard to popularize the sport. I don't believe that this is the type of message you want to deliver to the public.

I know a lot of people say that he is young and all, but I was 19 once too... and I had more sense than to go out and drive after drinking.

Yes, he is headed to Ann Arbor... eventually. I hope he learns from this as he heads to a big-ten party school. I also hope that others have learned from his mistake as well.

EyeoreSAM
November 9th, 2004, 05:20 PM
It is really bad to get such negative attention to such a great sport.

Seagurl51
November 9th, 2004, 05:28 PM
I must say, with the up most respect to everyone, that we all need to calm down. This thread seems to be getting very heated. We are tearing apart other peoples opinions, which they are entitled just as much as the next and debating something that only the law can truly decide. Whether or not you view DUI as a mistake and a learing experience or a serious offense and a learning experience, is your opinion and needs to be heard, but only the courts can decide what happens to someone in a case like this.

~Kyra

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by EyeoreSAM
It is really bad to get such negative attention to such a great sport.
I cannot see how one person can give a black eye to swimming. Every other sport has its problem basketball, baseball, football players - etc. One guy DUI is not going to effect how people feel about swimming.

George

scyfreestyler
November 9th, 2004, 05:37 PM
This is the most traffic I have ever seen on this forum!! I guess that is a testament to the popularity of Phelps.

USMSarah
November 9th, 2004, 06:34 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by geochuck
[B]One guy DUI is not going to effect how people feel about swimming.


I understand exactly what you are trying to say about just one person's effect on their sport. How could one person change it all? Well, when the Olympics and World Championships were on - what ONE swimmer was featured in a lot of commercials? It was Mr. Phelps. I think why a lot of people are shocked is because he has been the "face" of swimming in this very important year for the sport... plus it was a crime, and a serious one... I'm just happy that he didn't hurt anyone.

I consider myself to be a sports enthusiast. I used to go to pro football games and baseball too. However, with all of the stuff that athletes are doing with guns, drugs, etc... I'm sick of it all. I do not watch any more professional sports. Don't get me wrong, there are wonderful athletes out there trying to make it, trying to make a difference... and it does sometimes get spoiled by some bad apples. I was just saddened that recently, swimming has been trying to become more popular in the United States... and that something like this comes about. Swimming will not be tarnished forever because of this, but it wasn't a move in the right direction...

Hopefully... Phelps, swimmers, and other athletes... actually, EVERYONE needs to learn from this and NEVER drink and drive.

dorothyrde
November 9th, 2004, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
You gotta be drinking while posting. So, the first one is free? Let's give him another chance to kill someone and then we can get serious about drinking and driving.


Geek, I seriously doubt the first one is free for him. I don't know the laws in Maryland or what kind of sentence he will get, but it is very likely he will lose his liscence and not be allowed to drive for one to two years. He may have to attend classes and/or do community service. Imagine having to live without a liscence. It is tough, I have seen people go through it and most DO learn their lesson.

My point is that I am GLAD he did not hurt anyone, is learning this lesson without hurting anyone but it is a mistake, yes a very stupid mistake and he should have known better, even at 19.

But people make mistakes....All of us make mistakes....are we going to lock him up throw away the key because of this? Let the judicial system decide his punishment, it surely will not be light and from what I have seen of Phelps, he will take this seriously and it will not happen again. I don' t believe that he is a chronic, habitual drunk driver, just someone who had poor judgement on that night. And someone who should be thanking his lucky stars that it was just a stop sign and not the side of a car he ran.

Sometimes people need a smack up side the head to show them what is right, especially at Phelp's age. He luckily is getting that smack without killing anyone.

gull
November 9th, 2004, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by 330man
This is the most traffic I have ever seen on this forum!! I guess that is a testament to the popularity of Phelps.

The forum just hasn't been the same (nor have the threads been as long) since Ion departed for the USA Swimming website. Whether or not you agreed with him, he did manage to keep things...interesting. Fortunately he and Aquageek have remained close.

AWeiss
November 9th, 2004, 07:17 PM
This is just very, very sad. So many kids look up to Michael Phelps and he has let them down. I am a middle school teacher and swim coach in Maryland. For years I have observed that the "heroes" kids idolize are often total losers. Then, Michael Phelps came along, a seemingly perfect role model. Now girls even have pictures of Michael Phelps on their binders! One girl started crying (really!) when she heard the news. But, at least she realized that he had done a terrible thing and didn't shrug it off like "so what?" She knew that what he had done was much more than a "mistake." Hopefully what kids learn from this will not be "what's the big deal about drinking and driving if even Michael Phelps does it," but rather that sometimes even our "heroes" do bad (really, really bad, inexcusable) things. I was encouraged by the kids' reactions today. Every single one, I thought, responded appropriately.

dorothyrde
November 9th, 2004, 07:58 PM
One thing that will be interesting to see....if he realizes the damage he may have caused to his hero worshippers and comes out publically and speaks up about drunk driving. And if he walks the talks, he can do good in showing that you should not drink and drive and how serious it is. I think he will.

geochuck
November 9th, 2004, 08:14 PM
Do we really know he was drunk. Is it possible he could not have been intoxicated.

George

Seagurl51
November 9th, 2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Is it possible he could not have been intoxicated.

George

Yes. From the articles and such, all they say is that he had alcohol in his system, and they don't even say that directly they just strongly imply. They never say how much, whether or not he took a test and they are not releasing his BAC. It is possible that he didn't have any alcohol in his system.

~Kyra

aquageek
November 9th, 2004, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by gull80
The forum just hasn't been the same (nor have the threads been as long) since Ion departed for the USA Swimming website. Whether or not you agreed with him, he did manage to keep things...interesting. Fortunately he and Aquageek have remained close.

That hurts, gull!

I wonder about all these people that say this is a one time thing, he's a stand up guy, this is just a bump on the road, a little mistake, he can't have a drinking problem. Would they say the same thing if it was a pro baseball or basketball player? Or, would you say what we all say about the coddled professional athlete - "there they go again." Such a double standard. He broke the law, he committed a crime. The beloved star of swimming is no better now than the other pro sports athletes.

Seagurl51
November 9th, 2004, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by aquageek


I wonder about all these people that say this is a one time thing, he's a stand up guy, this is just a bump on the road, a little mistake, he can't have a drinking problem. Would they say the same thing if it was a pro baseball or basketball player? Or, would you say what we all say about the coddled professional athlete - "there they go again." Such a double standard. He broke the law, he committed a crime. The beloved star of swimming is no better now than the other pro sports athletes.

The only reason they say "there they go again" is because sometimes other sports have more than one person committing the same offense. I don't think that they single out a specific player unless they are a repeat offender. As far as saying it was a mistake, they have said that before for other sports players. I'm sure that if we went onto a basketball site that they would be defending their players and saying it was just a mistake. No body, of any sport, wants to see their star go down even if they disagree strongly with what they did. They want to see them recieve their just punishment, put it behind them, and get back to what they do best.

~Kyra

tjrpatt
November 9th, 2004, 08:48 PM
I don't think that Okzana Baul(The Figure Skater that beat Nancy Kerrigan) went to jail when she got pulled over for underage drinking so I don't think that Phelps shouldn't either. He should get probation, community service, fines, and license suspension. He will just have to hire a driver during that time. USA swimming needs to stay out of it so it is no good for them to fine them just like it was stupid to fine Gary Hall for wearing the boxing robe. Phelps was stupid and I am sure that he won't do that again if it is going to be as covered as it is in the media. Years ago, a swimmer would never get this much media attention for a DUI.

dorothyrde
November 9th, 2004, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by geochuck
Do we really know he was drunk. Is it possible he could not have been intoxicated.

George

This is a good point. My brother-in-law got a DUI and would have probably not been over the legal limit if he had taken the breathalizer. He had a beer with friends at a bar, left the bar and a cop followed him from the bar, slid on ice and wrecked his truck. Because he was told once that they will not get you for DUI if you refuse the test, he refused........and promptly got hauled off to jail. I guess in his state not taking it was an admission of guilt. He wishes he had taken it because he had not had enough to be over the legal limit.

He got his liscence taken away for 2 years and his wife reminded him of his mistake every time she had to take him somewhere!

As someone pointed out,Phelps is heading to a college town where there will be lots of opportunities to drink and drive. This may make him think twice about that and who knows, maybe people who know him will think twice too.

lapswimmr
November 9th, 2004, 10:10 PM
I second knelsons reply about the BAC. Maryland has if I am correct two standards for drinking and driving a "DUI" that is for a .07 BAC and "DWI" .08 and up.. It sounds like it was a DUI cause thats whats being reported. What i've read so far is that hes accepted responsibly for this.. I have almost been killed or hurt over the years in near misses.. The people responsible.. Stupid drivers! Doing totaly stupid things like suddenly stopping on the interstate because they missed their exit. Phelps is a young man he made a mistake and he owned up to it. Now if we read again about some more of the same .. then he will have a problem and he will screw up his legacy but I doubt it.. hes a very dedicated fellow to his swimming.

craiglll@yahoo.com
November 10th, 2004, 12:37 PM
there is a principle in our country called "innocent until proven guilty." Also, I can't find any mention of any testing having been done at the site or later. Does anyone know if the police did any testing to check alcohol levels or sobriety reactions? In every report I have read about this, it states that the policeman saw signs of behavior simular to that from alcohol comsumption. I haven't seen anything to indicate that he was tested to be legally drunk. Or doesn't that matter in Maryland.

gull
November 10th, 2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
there is a principle in our country called "innocent until proven guilty." Also, I can't find any mention of any testing having been done at the site or later. Does anyone know if the police did any testing to check alcohol levels or sobriety reactions? In every report I have read about this, it states that the policeman saw signs of behavior simular to that from alcohol comsumption. I haven't seen anything to indicate that he was tested to be legally drunk. Or doesn't that matter in Maryland.

He failed a sobriety test, according to the New York Times. It has not been released whether a blood alcohol level was checked. As for innocent until proven guilty, he has admitted he made a mistake and stated that he would "own up to the charges against him." And I don't believe that Maryland is a police state.

Seagurl51
November 10th, 2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
Does anyone know if the police did any testing to check alcohol levels or sobriety reactions?

In the articles I have read, they will not say. One of the articles said the police are not releasing that information.

~Kyra

tjrpatt
November 10th, 2004, 02:27 PM
That is a good point about whether he was drunk or not. Cops in Maryland might know all about the Phelps Escalde and just followed his butt like a hawk and when he missed the stop sign, he was fresh meat to the police. That will be really said if Phelps loses his endorsements if they don't the facts of the case. If he was drunk, There goes that rise in swimming popularity some of us in the swimming community would hoping.

aquageek
November 10th, 2004, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by tjrpatt
That is a good point about whether he was drunk or not. Cops in Maryland might know all about the Phelps Escalde and just followed his butt like a hawk and when he missed the stop sign, he was fresh meat to the police. That will be really said if Phelps loses his endorsements if they don't the facts of the case. If he was drunk, There goes that rise in swimming popularity some of us in the swimming community would hoping.

If he's drinking and driving, it's totally irrelevant if the police camped out behind him every day and night of the week. I can bet you that the police did not hold him down, force the bottle into his mouth and tell him to drink and drive.

Phelps admitted his "mistake." So, why are you now trying to blame the police for taking away poor little Mikey's endorsements?

geochuck
November 10th, 2004, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Phelps admitted his "mistake." So, why are you now trying to blame the police for taking away poor little Mikey's endorsements? Even if he did drink police should not be allowed to profile. If they laid in wait???
I was a cop and my partner wanted to lay in wait for a known drunk but I told him not with me. I am not saying this happened but anything is possible.

George

newmastersswimmer
November 10th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Phelps admitted his "mistake." So, why are you now trying to blame the police for taking away poor little Mikey's endorsements?


Well, I for one would like to hear all of the facts surrounding this case before I jump to any conclusions or jump to any judgements.
I've noticed that you have expressed some pretty strong opinions here (and certainly that is your right)....but I have also been able to see some other members points too when you have been a little adversarial with them to say the least. There's nothing wrong with a healthy debate...but one of the rules of a healthy debate should be to at least try and see the other person's point of view as well....for example: I think I can relate to what hooked-on-swimming has been trying to say to some degree.....I don't think he is trying to excuse Micheal from what he did....but just sort of pointing out a version of the famous scripture in the new testament that says something like ...we shouldn't reach out to pull the grain of sand from someone else's eye before we first try and remove the 2 by 4 from our own eye...(paraphrased version only since I don't really know the exact words for that scripture)....I can't beleive I'm quoting a scripture anyway b/c I'm not even a Republican LOL!!


newmastersswimmer

aquageek
November 10th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Here comes the debate police. As an old poster on this forum once said, kum ba yah.

FACT - he admitted his "mistake." What more info do you need or are you looking for a way to make drinking and driving acceptable?

geochuck
November 10th, 2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
Here comes the debate police. As an old poster on this forum once said, kum ba yah.

FACT - he admitted his "mistake." What more info do you need or are you looking for a way to make drinking and driving acceptable?
Sorry but I am still going to wait and see. Here we go deciding guilt before the trail. I still think OJ was innocent. Maybe Phelps only said he was sorry for going through the stop street.

George

newmastersswimmer
November 10th, 2004, 04:15 PM
FACT - he admitted his "mistake." What more info do you need or are you looking for a way to make drinking and driving acceptable?


Well let's see.... The "info" that I would like is basically the real facts of the story whatever they might be....Sounds like so far we don't really know a whole lot about the situation (other than he ran a stop sign)....What was his actual Blood Alcohol level? Did he actually take a breathalizer?.....Did he do a "hollywood stop" at the stop sign where he "almost came to a complete stop" or did he just barrell through the stop sign??.....I think it's possible that since Micheal seems to be a pretty nice guy, that he not only cooperated fully with the police (and was probably very polite) but he might of been bullied a bit by the officer....What exactly made the officer think that he had been drinking?...If he asked Micheal if he had been drinking and let's say he had a beer an hour or two ago...being an honest kind of guy, maybe he said, "Yes officer, I did have one beer an hour or two ago" and the overanxious police officer took that as reason to arrest him.....Who exactly knows anyway??...Maybe he was sloshed out of his mind?? I would just like to know a few more facts about the case that's all....Do you know all of the facts??...You seem to want to crucify him upside down though...I can certainly see that!


newmastersswimmer

aquageek
November 10th, 2004, 04:40 PM
Please find a single time where I said he should be crucified or even discussed his punishment. That's determined by laws, not me. I am disgusted by the people on this forum looking to marginalize drinking and driving by saying the police might be at fault, he might not have been THAT drunk, it's just a mistake, kids will be kids, etc.

First, he's underage. He broke the law by drinking alone. OK, not a huge deal but then he got into a car. OK, that's a huge deal. So, we have an underage person drinking and driving. That is the absolute recipe for disaster - inexperience with alcohol and inexperience with driving. I don't think Phelps is apologizing for his mistake of running a stop sign, do you?

The only facts we are missing is how drunk he was. You ok with it if he was under the legal limit for persons of drinking age? If so, let's pass out the booze to the 16 year olds, close our eyes real tight and hope for the best as long as they keep the BAC under 0.08%.

Tom Ellison
November 10th, 2004, 04:49 PM
I for one have always been of mind that any MAN or WOMAN who is old enough to lay down their lives for this county at 18 and 19 years old....and is mature enough to do that....then they darn sure are mature enough to drink....Talk about a double standard!

Seagurl51
November 10th, 2004, 04:52 PM
The thing that should be considered is his BAC. The mere fact that he had even a hint of alcohol could have gotten him a DUI simply because he is underage. He could have had half a beer and then drove. He could operate perfectly normal but since he was underage, even the slightest hint of alcohol would land you a DUI. I think what everyone really wants to know is his BAC, unfortunatly it doesn't sound like that will be released any time soon.

~Kyra

geochuck
November 10th, 2004, 04:53 PM
Just a thought in most places in Canada the drinking age is 18. You can go to war at 18 and can not drink in Maryland. I don't think it is right to drink and drive but -------- you have already convicted him.

George

aquageek
November 10th, 2004, 04:54 PM
But, are they mature enough to drink and drive? The law says you have to be 21 to drink and there are laws about drinking and driving. Hey, for the Phelps' supporters out there, maybe this was his form of civil protest.

newmastersswimmer
November 10th, 2004, 05:06 PM
The only facts we are missing is how drunk he was.


What??? Lets forget for a moment about how much he had been drinking and ask how much you have been smoking?.....Do you actually read anything before you start shooting off?? I don't think you have been reading a lot of people posts around here....You keep accusing everyone of taking poor Mikey's side and excusing the act of drinking and driving ...but when I read those peoples posts your accusing this of; I don't see that at all.....Since when did hooked-on-swimming ever say that it was o.k. to drink and drive (or anyone else on this thread for that matter??)...You have said multiple times that some people on this thread seem to think it's o.k. to do that.....Dude....Here's some advice....Start actually reading peoples posts first before you jump right in accusing people of this or that.....You don't know any of the facts that I said were still in question...all you know is that Phelps apologized for his behavior and said he was sorry....I hope you never try to become a lawyer sometime down the road....You will be easy roadkill my friend!


newmastersswimmer

2go+h20
November 10th, 2004, 05:07 PM
It is hard to accept that a swimmer who has brought so much fame, and inspired so many, has hit the media in a more tarnished light.
It can be argued that the media may have blown this out of propotion. Or they may have stated the facts as they understood them. Assumptions could have been made. This is not clear. However, the common thread seems to revlove around consumption of alcohol and driving, combined with a traffic offence.
I believe it is a known fact that alcohol affects thinking, perception, judgement, coordination, reaction time and even personality. And these all differ with each individual person.
If you have ever known anyone who has been hit by an impaired driver, the effects can be catastrophic.
The Laws are there to protect us all.
When a law is broken, there are consequences.
Obviously only a priveledged few will ever know the 'facts' in this case.
IF an officer pulls a driver over for whatever reason, and feels the need to enquire about alcohol, then that is their job.
The results of their findings requires them to take the necessary steps and actions.
AS it has been stated, the 'facts' aren't very clear. However drinking and driving is not a responsible action for any adult regardless of creed, age or 'celebrity status'.
We are all humans, we will all make mistakes.
I am sure Mr. Phelps has a whole ton of emotions over this one.
I am sure he is thankful no harm was done to anyone.
It is how he deals with this that is important.
He will still be regarded as an almighty swimmer. That shouldn't change.
Learning from, and admitting a mistake are 2 good first steps.

aquageek
November 10th, 2004, 05:20 PM
newmastersswimmer :

Please refrain from drinking and posting on the forum. While not as dangerous, it still should be illegal, especially when so irrelevant, dude.

I'll know to be wary of driving in TN as drinking and driving is an excusable behavior, since the only real issue is not that you were drinking and driving but just how drunk you were, dude.

Just out of cursiosity - what do you think Phelps was apologizing for? Do you really think he was apologizing for running the stop light, dude?

Lastly, it's also a crime to resurrect 90's catch phrases, on par with challenging folks to a clown suit swimming showdown, dude.

I'm well past my educateable years so you won't have to mow me down on the drunken highways of TN.

I think I'll get the nasty gram from the administrator on this post.

geochuck
November 10th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
newmastersswimmer :

Please refrain from drinking and posting on the forum. While not as dangerous, it still should be illegal, especially when so irrelevant, dude.

I'll know to be wary of driving in TN as drinking and driving is an excusable behavior, since the only real issue is not that you were drinking and driving but just how drunk you were, dude.

Just out of cursiosity - what do you think Phelps was apologizing for? Do you really think he was apologizing for running the stop light, dude?

Lastly, it's also a crime to resurrect 90's catch phrases, on par with challenging folks to a clown suit swimming showdown, dude.

I'm well past my educateable years so you won't have to mow me down on the drunken highways of TN.

I think I'll get the nasty gram from the administrator on this post.
Aquageek you must calm down, I think what everyone is saying is take it easy, wait and see. He may not be guilty of anything but entrapement.

George

aquageek
November 10th, 2004, 05:37 PM
geo:

I think both you and me will be highly surprised if Phelps apologized for being entrapped.

newmastersswimmer
November 10th, 2004, 05:51 PM
Just out of cursiosity - what do you think Phelps was apologizing for? Do you really think he was apologizing for running the stop light, dude?


As Geochuck pointed out in a prior message ....He could have been apologizing about the stop sign....but I think he could have been apologizing for the entire thing (as a whole innocent or guilty)...He is embarrassed for bringing such bad publicity to his name (and to swimming in general)....so maybe he is apologizing for that too?....and if he is guilty of drinking and driving (which he very well may be)....then he could also be apologizing for that....How can you say for sure you know exactly what he is apologizing for?....We don't even know whether or not he actually did run the stop sign yet....It hasn't gone to court yet....I have been guilty of running stop signs too....I didn't come to a "complete stop" and I paid a traffic fine for it....I call that a mistake (a misdemeanor offense according to the law)....That does NOT make me a criminal....You stated that Phelps didn't commit a mistake, he committed a crime (as in he is a criminal)....Maybe so?? Right now no one really knows....Do you now see the point? Remember the scripture reference I made....Are your eyes totally clear of all crimes against humanity? Please think about it b/c I think that was the point of hooked on swimming's message...and I for one thought it was an excellent point.....By the way, Why am I now mowing you down on the TN highways drunker than a skunk??....That sure came out of nowhere....Since I want the facts before I jump to any conclusions I'm now a raving drunk maniac?? Also...Sorry if I broke the rules about using old cliches like "how much have you been smoking?"....It just seemed to fit and so I went with it....I didn't realize you would get your panties in a wod over it...(wait that's a lie...yaeh I guess I did know that....I'm such a jerk sometimes!)


newmastersswimmer

geochuck
November 10th, 2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by aquageek
geo:

I think both you and me will be highly surprised if Phelps apologized for being entrapped. YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN COURT, THE GUILTY GETS OFF AND SOMETIMES THE INNOCENT, GET SENT TO JAIL.

George

aquageek
November 10th, 2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by newmastersswimmer
[B]I didn't realize you would get your panties in a wod over it

As a new masters swimmer, I have to take you under my wing and let you know they aren't panties, they are called Speedos. As you grow into Masters, you will come to realize that calling then panties perpetuates a bad stereotype about us. Jammers are an popular alternative if you feel they are pantey-esque.

And, as you grow into adulthood, you will realize that drinking and driving is wrong and no one goes on camera to apologize for running a stop sign, dude.

hooked-on-swimming
November 10th, 2004, 07:09 PM
AQUAGEEK, to the point that you said it does not matter if we personally did something wrong of a kind or not you are definitely wrong.So what if we have another star do that kinda thing, would you listen to what Phelps has to say?If he starts talking about how wrong that is and all that wouldn't you be like:"Hey, kid, didn't you do the same, do you even have the right to say anything?
So, AQUAGEEK, before you present your eloquent speeches, think about what you have done in your life(just reminding my previous point again), 'cause I am sure you are not a saint and maybe should stay quiet about the case.
Oh yeah, and I also wanted to let you know that you extracted the wrong ideas from a lot of other peoples' replies, claiming that we are excusing Phelps.Well, read them again, because we are not excusing him(noone said it was ok to do what he did) but we were trying to wait for all the facts first before jumping into conclusions, one, and two(which is my point), let Phelps learn his lesson himself, your angry ramblings won't turn the time back.
Come to think about it ... are you jealous of Phelps or something, of his career success or his endorsemets(you were really sarcastic about his possible losing some of sponsors - "poor little Mikey"), becaus that would explain why you are trying to tear him apart.
And the more often you bark back with your replies the more I get to think that you might have some anger management problems or are just a pathological argueholic, where regardless of what people say you'll find fault with it.We are different, obviously and we all have our own views and opinions and I respect yours, but listen to the others, too, and don't get nasty by saying you are DISGUSTED with some people here, 'cause that is inappropriate and immature to say- we are all grown-ups and should act accordingly(back to my point of the necessity to clean up our own act before moving on to the others and looks like that's what you need to take care of).
I know you are going to post something again on this matter, I will just stay with my opinion, because all these endless ramblings are not going to change the situation , help our sport or Michael Phelps, so I will just make sure I do not do anything stupid like that(one less trouble-maker on the road) and suggest that everyone else start with themselves, too - that's the only way to make it safe, since many seem to get carried away by blaiming others and forget about what they do themselves and therefore sooner or later you'll find yourself in the same position getting blamed by the same kinda people who like to blame others - vicious circle ...
Peace.

gull
November 10th, 2004, 07:40 PM
What additional "facts" do we need? C'mon, this is hardly a case out of the CSI files. He was stopped after running a stop sign, failed a field sobriety test and was arrested for DUI. Then he admitted he'd made a mistake and apologized.

Or maybe it's all really just a conspiracy.

lapswimmr
November 10th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Iwill restate I have had several near misses in driving over the past (34 years) TRUE Drunk Drivers are to be despised but the Federal Government had put carrots in front of states for years to drop bac levels to .08 from .10 States that dont adopt .08 dont get the carrot money for roads ect. Maryland was one of those states who had to lower the DWI Bac from .10 to .08 To tell the truth what is a "drunk driver" level of BAC? The evidence is that the terrible wrecks that happen are from the "super drunks".. over .15 BAC they are the real danger . I could give a S"" about a .08 Bac to tell the truth because MOST "accidents" are not from "drunk" .08 drivers but just BAD drivers..and nothing is done about them! Lock up the super drunks..the BAC .12 over drunk.And the sloppy bad drivers and take there licenses drunk or sober.. And I bet Michael is NOT in either group.. ! As I said Michel is probably a .07 and thats a DUI in Maryland not a DWI.


Just a bit on the PO side because of life experiences with BAD STUPID SOBER DRIVERS that cause the MAJORITY of accidents in this country. And who are not getting the "jamming " they deserve.. it all goes to the "drunk" drivers.

dorothyrde
November 11th, 2004, 06:01 AM
Very True Lap swimmer. The 41 year old man who hit my friend's son at 5am was very likey way over .08, and very likely drinking all night. Big difference between that and driving after one beer.


I know, I know, he is underage and never should have been drinking in the first place.

newmastersswimmer
November 11th, 2004, 07:43 AM
As a new masters swimmer, I have to take you under my wing and let you know they aren't panties, they are called Speedos. As you grow into Masters, you will come to realize that calling then panties perpetuates a bad stereotype about us. Jammers are an popular alternative if you feel they are pantey-esque.


Yo AquaGEEK: Heres a newsflash:......I wasn't referring to swimmers in general when I made that remark...and I definitely was referring to the right undergarmet there....Maybe you should just stop with the endless ramblings about everyone being in favor of drinkling and driving (or worse...referring to certain people (like me for example) as drunken mad men) just b/c we disagree with you...ect...ect....
Sorry ...but you sound like a complete idiot when you do that. I have said all I want to say here and so I will stop participating in this adolescent screaming match with you....(mainly for the sake of the other nice "adult" members here who I think have all made some excellent remarks on the subject and would rather not see the thread diminish into adolescence like this)....By the way, I do sincerely apologize to everyone else on this thread (except for one of course) for letting this thing get a little ugly...but in my defense, I got a little tired of reading the comments of one blowhard lashing out at the other members of this thread who were just trying to state thier respective opinions...so that's when I decided to add my two cents worth....So please forgive my bad behavior!

newmastersswimmer

Tom Ellison
November 11th, 2004, 08:21 AM
Children, children.....play nice in the sand box...or Big Brother is going to send you guys to "time out"......:)

dorothyrde
November 11th, 2004, 08:57 AM
I have question and I truly don't know this, so help me out here.

How many beers does it take to get a .08 level in a person Phelp's size?

mattson
November 11th, 2004, 09:26 AM
Found this site on a google search:
dui.com (http://www.dui.com)

As for the rest, it's possible to say:
- that you can understand his actions, without condoning it
- that one crime is less serious than another, without trivializing it
- that he may be innocent (or guilty), even if you think the opposite is more likely
- your arguments passionately, without being insulting


Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement.

dorothyrde
November 11th, 2004, 09:37 AM
OK, that answers my quesiton, roughly 4 beers.

gull
November 11th, 2004, 09:57 AM
I'm not saying that he should be "crucified," but I disagree with the concept of learning from your mistakes as applied to this situation. He is an adult, he has a driver's license, and he (allegedly) committed a crime. He made a conscious decision to get behind the wheel of his SUV after drinking, breaking the law and endangering lives (anyone remember the recent case involving the Congressman who killed a motorcyclist when he ran a stop sign?).

Laws are there for a reason, and I don't believe that you need the "experience" of breaking them to learn a lesson. Of course, I assume you only learn something if you get caught.

Scansy
November 11th, 2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by gull80
I'm not saying that he should be "crucified," but I disagree with the concept of learning from your mistakes as applied to this situation. He is an adult, he has a driver's license, and he (allegedly) committed a crime. He made a conscious decision to get behind the wheel of his SUV after drinking, breaking the law and endangering lives (anyone remember the recent case involving the Congressman who killed a motorcyclist when he ran a stop sign?).

Laws are there for a reason, and I don't believe that you need the "experience" of breaking them to learn a lesson. Of course, I assume you only learn something if you get caught.

You definately don't need to break a law to know better. But now that the law is broken, I do hope he learns....... I hope.......

I hope others who look up to him learn too....... I hope.......

dorothyrde
November 11th, 2004, 10:30 AM
Some people follow the laws, and never have to learn from their mistakes. Others have to mess up first and then learn. Still others never learn.

Many many kids are drinking and driving. It is illegal to drink underage, it is illegal to drink and then drive, but they are doing it because kids have a "it is not going to happen to me" attitude.
It often takes a scare like this to wake them up and realize the gravity of what they are doing.

And unfortunately, some are not lucky enough to be caught running a stop sign where no one was hurt. Instead they do cause an accident, sometimes fatal. Do other kids learn from this?
It often seems not, because of the above attitude.

The fatalities I have heard about lately in our County with drunk drivers have not been teens drinking, but older people who are habitual, repeat offenders.

And when a teen's example is a parent going to a party getting bombed and then driving home, how will they ever learn? I recently went to a wedding reception where the beer flowed freely and it seemed adults and kids alike were drinking. And everyone drove there. When I left, earlier than many, I remember thinking about all those people leaving and trying to drive home, and how scary it would be on the road that night. It is very odd to be at a party when everyone is drunk except you. It certainly does alter peoples perceptions.

So I am not defending anyone getting behind the wheel after drinking, it is wrong. But Phelps was acting like a stupid 19 year old having a good time with his friends and probably had that teen attitude of it can't happen to me. He should take his punishment(and that seems to be the case), learn from it, and hopefully influence friends to learn from it( may or may not happen).

Maybe Geek has a right to be so angry, but Phelps is unfortunately one of many, many drivers who have made this bad choice. I don't know what the solution is to get people to stop drinking and driving, do you?

Seagurl51
November 11th, 2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by dorothyrde
Many many kids are drinking and driving. It is illegal to drink underage, it is illegal to drink and then drive, but they are doing it because kids have a "it is not going to happen to me" attitude.
It often takes a scare like this to wake them up and realize the gravity of what they are doing.


I know people personally that this has happened to. They went around "living it up" because they thought they would never get caught. When they did, boy! did they get a rude awakening. But now, they have learned from that experience and are thriving. They have put the event behind them, but still carry it's lessons with them everyday. Hopefully by seeing that it can happen to anyone, younger kids will take notice.

~Kyra

geochuck
November 11th, 2004, 12:19 PM
Guilty not guilty, I hope no one ever has to go through any thing like this.

I know lots of people not famous who have never had a word written about them and they were drunk as skunks. Also I just wonder why so many are attacking the ones who are angry at Phelps we do live in a free country at least I do. I am still going to wait and see. If he was driving drunk he should not have done this and should face the cosequences. I really hope he is not guilty. I think too many are jumping to conclusions.

George

Seagurl51
November 11th, 2004, 01:07 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/brennan/2004-11-10-brennan-phelps_x.htm

This is a really good article. Some of the quotes in there that Michael gave so how extremely upset and hurt he is by this. It also shows how he is trying to, I guess you could say, make the best out a bad situation. There is another link to another article on the USA Swimming site, but I thought this was the better of the two.
~Kyra

Maryyyyyy
November 11th, 2004, 01:15 PM
Here Michael is doing exactly the right thing - setting an example of honesty, admitting he was wrong, not hiding. I applaude him.

He says exactly what many of us have been saying here:

"I think drinking and driving — it's not OK once. It's a dangerous thing, and it's unacceptable."

He just won over a big fan.... me. And I was VERY critical of him when I heard the news of his arrest.

Good job, Michael!!

laineybug
November 11th, 2004, 05:08 PM
I've been waiting a few days before I post this so I could run down a link for you but I've been really busy. Anyway, a couple of days ago, the other psychologist, with whom I work, came in with a cold. We were discussing a case and she was very foggy, mentally. She apologized for her lack of mental focus and then said, you realize driving with a cold is the same as driving under the influence of alcohol. I asked if she meant driving under the influence of cold medications. She said, no, driving with a cold. I had never heard that or read any research that would support that. I promise I will ask her for a reference tomorrow.

So, what's my point? How many of you have ever driven a car when you had a cold? How many of you will continue to drive even after you have the knowledge that a cold is the same as driving under the influence of alcohol? Drinking and driving is wrong no matter how old you are and if found guilty then the offender should be punished. But be very careful that you aren't casting stones.

gull
November 12th, 2004, 08:38 AM
I believe the research you're referring to studied the reaction times of subjects taking OTC cold remedies/decongestants. Still a pont well taken, although it's not against the law to take a Sudafed and drive.

Being a celebrity clearly places your actions in the public eye, which is why Neil Armstrong has kept such a low profile over the years. He once said that he felt an obligation to history to preserve a positive image of himself. Most celebrities don't seem to mind the attention (and various perks) until they screw up, at which point they complain about their lack of privacy.

aquageek
November 12th, 2004, 08:45 AM
I've never known someone with a bad cold to roll down the windows and close one eye to keep it between the white lines at 2 am.

gull
November 12th, 2004, 08:54 AM
Aquageek, I thought you'd been banned or exiled or something. Maybe the forum moderator had one too many Allegras, fell asleep at his keyboard and crashed (his hard drive, that is).

laineybug
November 12th, 2004, 10:43 AM
No Craig, unless I misunderstood what she said, she specifically said driving with a cold was like driving under the influence of alcohol. Driving after taking OTC cold medications that make you drowsy is rather a no brainer and that bit of info wouldn't have been 'news' to me.

Maryyyyyy
November 12th, 2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by laineybug
No Craig, unless I misunderstood what she said, she specifically said driving with a cold was like driving under the influence of alcohol. Driving after taking OTC cold medications that make you drowsy is rather a no brainer and that bit of info wouldn't have been 'news' to me.
The difference is, it is not illegal to drive when you have a cold. It is illegal to drive when the alcohol in your blood is above certain percentages. I'll bet there's a reason.

I have this "email notification" thing on in my options, and I'm trying desperately to turn it off, cuz all these replies are filling up my email box. I'm ready and willing to give Michael a break at this point. We've raked him over the coals haven't we? (me included...) Any hints?

aquageek
November 12th, 2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by gull80
Aquageek, I thought you'd been banned or exiled or something. Maybe the forum moderator had one too many Allegras, fell asleep at his keyboard and crashed (his hard drive, that is).

Just got tired of trying to convince folks that drinking and driving is bad.

Seagurl51
November 12th, 2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
Just got tired of trying to convince folks that drinking and driving is bad.

With all do respect, no one has every disagreed in saying that drinking and driving is wrong. On the contrary, I believe everyone here has supported that fact.

~Kyra

gull
November 12th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by laineybug
No Craig, unless I misunderstood what she said, she specifically said driving with a cold was like driving under the influence of alcohol.

I can see it now: "OK, buddy, I've been watching you cough and sneeze for the last few miles. I'm going to have take you in. Put down the Kleenex and step out of the car."

I don't believe I've ever seen anyone with altered mental status due to rhinitis. On the other hand, you may be on to something. Perhaps Michael's defense team should claim he had a cold, and that's why he failed his field sobriety test. Certainly more plausible than the Scott Peterson defense.

Peter Cruise
November 14th, 2004, 03:22 PM
...if the kleenex does not fit, you must acquit!

geochuck
November 15th, 2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
...if the kleenex does not fit, you must acquit! That'snot funny.

George

craiglll@yahoo.com
December 6th, 2004, 02:22 PM
I am resurecting this forum to talk about how people responded to the news. I went through and counted the type of responses made. I tried very hard ot not count people twice. I looked at the overall tone of hte response. If peole made a negative response about Michael or about drunk driving in general, I noted that fact. If people made a supportive comment about either waiting until all of the facts are known, innocent until proven guilty, or it isn't their place to judge, I noted those responses. I realize that to label a response as negative denoted a bad impression. I'm sorry for this but in many cases, I couldn't come up with a better title for the attitude of the response. many of the negative responses were also very absolute.

Most responses were made by peole living in what is considered traditionally to be the north. Many people wrote more than three resonses. Mnay of the responses were from peole living within Maryland (which I counted as northern).

Oddly, there sidn't seem to be any differing attitudes between male and female nor age. I expected younger peole to be more tolerant.

Southerns 10 total responses. 6 made negative resposes, 4 were either supportive or wait-n-see. Also, southerners were more likely to make multipl responses. Northerners 25 total 11 were negative, 14 were supportive. Westerners 8 total responses. 2 were negative and 6 were supportive. Also, many westerners responded several tiems. For those living utside fo the US sorry, I didn't count you.

I'm not sure what this means. I would say that generally, most of us who are swimmers probably don't drink a lot. We must realize though that alcoholism ----I don't think that Michael is an alcoholic-------and alcohol comsumption is at an all time high. There are parts of the country where it has hit a true epidemic (last I heard North & South Carolina has had a trememdous increase in alcohol related car accidents).

aquageek
December 6th, 2004, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
I would say that generally, most of us who are swimmers probably don't drink a lot.

There are certain exceptions to this, especially in this festive season.

knelson
December 6th, 2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by craiglll@yahoo.com
We must realize though that alcoholism ----I don't think that Michael is an alcoholic-------and alcohol comsumption is at an all time high.

Where are you getting this statistic from? A quick search turned up this: http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/databases/consum01.htm

From this data it appears average alcohol consumption has been falling since its peak around 1980.

Rob Copeland
December 30th, 2004, 08:21 AM
From the Associated Press this morning:

Phelps Gets 18 Months Probation for DUI

Olympic swimming champion Michael Phelps was sentenced to 18 months' probation Wednesday after pleading guilty to drunken driving.

And in a rare divergence from USMS Discussion Forum pundits, the Judge stated “We learn from our mistakes, and this was a mistake”.

Alicat
December 30th, 2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland


Phelps Gets 18 Months Probation for DUI

[/I]”.

Quite appropriate.

dorothyrde
December 30th, 2004, 10:34 AM
I heard this and was curious whether the probation includes his liscence either being taken away or restricted?

gull
January 3rd, 2005, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland
And in a rare divergence from USMS Discussion Forum pundits, the Judge stated “We learn from our mistakes, and this was a mistake”.

I wonder whether the judge would have been as understanding if someone had been seriously hurt or killed as a result of the "mistake."

aquageek
January 3rd, 2005, 09:42 AM
gull80:

It's high time you understood the facts in America about crimes these days. It's a "mistake" and a "maturity enhancing experience" if you commit a crime and no one gets hurt. It's only if while committing the crime that someone get's hurt that you are really supposed to get in trouble. And, if you get busted committing a crime and then blubber in front of the camera then you are fully exonerated.

Get with the program!

Fritz
January 3rd, 2005, 10:56 AM
Would you have stood in front of the judge and asked for the maximum penalty? Sounds like it would've been the right thing to do.

aquageek
January 3rd, 2005, 12:14 PM
I believe the penalty is quite fair, given he is a first time offender. Not sure what makes you think I would propose otherwise for such a small mistake.

Fritz
January 3rd, 2005, 12:35 PM
Just trying to test the boundaries of your moral outrage.

gull
January 3rd, 2005, 12:44 PM
He was contrite, and for a first offense the sentence was appropriately lenient. I don't think moral outrage is the issue. Spinning this as a "mistake," however, seems to trivialize the problem of drunk driving. Maybe it's just semantics. But look, if I make a "mistake" and buy the wrong pair of goggles, nobody's life is endangered.

Fritz
January 3rd, 2005, 12:52 PM
Did you speed on the way to work this morning?

gull
January 3rd, 2005, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Fritz
Did you speed on the way to work this morning?

Haven't been to New Bern lately, have you? My "commute" takes all of five minutes (and that's only if I hit a few red lights, which I stop for).

Seriously, I thought that our society viewed a DUI differently from other moving violations. My mistake.

mattson
January 3rd, 2005, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by gull80
Seriously, I thought that our society viewed a DUI differently from other moving violations. My mistake.

Considering that our president and vice-president have 3 DUIs between them, maybe not.

gull
January 3rd, 2005, 02:52 PM
Good point.

aquageek
January 3rd, 2005, 04:05 PM
Maybe that's why they don't let the Pres or VP drive. Is Bush allowed to drive on his little Racherita in Crawford? Maybe he has one of those breathalyzer things on the tractor ignition switch that he has to blow into before doing some faux tree chopping.

On a completely unrelated note, did anyone read the obituary for the actor Jerry Orbach last week? He was a competitive swimmer in college apparently.

scyfreestyler
January 3rd, 2005, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by mattson
Considering that our president and vice-president have 3 DUIs between them, maybe not. People are people and we all make bad decisions/mistakes. Bush had his bout with drinking and Clinton had his bout with women and adultery. My point is that people are people and they will make mistakes and that should not prevent them from leading normal lives. Unless of course the mistakes involve murder, manslaughter, or some other violent crime. For instance, we would not want Sammy the Bull to be running the FBI.

Guvnah
January 3rd, 2005, 05:19 PM
Maybe we should cut off one of his arms and make him join the para-lympics.

Let it go, people. It's history. He's a good kid. He's doing the right things amid the fallout of the incident. He did NOT kill or injure or anything, so discussing "what-if" is purely speculative and not relevant.

Maybe we should be discussing something more practical and relevant to this forum than DUI. Let's discuss the merits of swimming ability in the face of an oncoming tsunami. Is it better to be able to run? Or swim? Would you try to ride the front of the wave like a body surfer? Or would you try to dive under it like you do with the small ones at the beach?

Fred Johnson
January 3rd, 2005, 10:18 PM
Amen, Guvnah!!

Sam Perry
January 3rd, 2005, 10:38 PM
It seems to me that people are mad a Phelps for calling it a mistake. It was a mistake, he drank too much and got behind the wheel. I made a mistake today and drove too fast, I put lives in danger.

I am not trying to make light of drunk driving, but if you want to disagree, disagree with the judge. He is the one who determined the penalty, all Phelps did was defend himself the exact same way I would if I were in the same situation.

Not to get in a legal discussion here, but most of our problems with our legal system sits with judges who legislate from the bench and lawyers who have no sense of right or wrong, just winning and losing.

aquageek
January 4th, 2005, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by Guvnah

Let it go, people. It's history. He's a good kid. He's doing the right things amid the fallout of the incident.

First, it's a "mistake", now it's an "incident." No telling what tomorrow's definition of this crime will be watered down to.

Seagurl51
January 4th, 2005, 05:31 AM
Whether considering it a mistake, a serious crime, an incident, or any other term you care to attach to it, it doesn't change the fact that what's done is done. The judge made a ruling to the best of his legal abilities and sentenced according. No matter how much you debate and debate, it's not going to change what happened in this case or anyone's views on drunk driving and first offenses. It will save us all valuable mail box space being taken up by announcement e-mails.

~Kyra

gull
January 4th, 2005, 09:34 AM
The bottom line is he broke the law (in other words, he committed a crime), and he was punished appropriately. Case closed. I still believe that calling it a mistake tends to gloss over the seriousness of a DUI ("Oh no, I made another mistake; I hate it when that happens.").

Frank Thompson
January 23rd, 2007, 04:54 PM
AquaGeek:

Is this the story you are referring to about the "can of worms"?

The Fortress
January 23rd, 2007, 11:07 PM
Not to get in a legal discussion here, but most of our problems with our legal system sits with judges who legislate from the bench and lawyers who have no sense of right or wrong, just winning and losing.

This appears to be the "can of worms," Frank.

Phelps both made a mistake and committed a crime. He seems like he was treated fairly by the gawdawful legal system.

This lawyer-bashing gets very tiresome. I'm starting to know how Terry feels. Lawyers are paid to do a job. Just like engineers, IT specialists, bankers, advertising executives, nurses, insurance agents, math professors, etc. Some lawyers have to earn a living or do what their boss says. They can't always pick and choose their clients. There is a code of ethics for lawyers. If they cross the line, they can be disbarred. But holding them up to some philosophical standard is rubbish. They are not typically philosophers. If they were, they would be "philosophers." Like me. :cool:

Some swim coaches don't have a highly honed sense of right or wrong either for that matter. They might seek short term, win-win, gains, which might not be what is best for their swimmer in the long term.

Plus, back to swimming, it seems that many swimmers, USS or masters, focus on winning or losing -- just like those alleged bad guy lawyers. Not all, by any means. But certainly Geek and GoodSmith. There is a lot of guitar smashing talk going on.

SwimStud
January 23rd, 2007, 11:26 PM
Lower the drinking age
Raise the driving age
Improve public transport

I got home from most of my drinking and staggering via taxis, buses and trains...


At least Phelp is giving a message of contrition and trying to speak out against what he did. How many other athletes show such humility when they have done wrong in the "do you know who I am " kind of world that many celebrities live in?

The Fortress
January 23rd, 2007, 11:32 PM
Lower the drinking age
Raise the driving age
Improve public transport

I got home from most of my drinking and staggering via taxis, buses and trains...


At least Phelp is giving a message of contrition and trying to speak out against what he did. How many other athletes show such humility when they have done wrong in the "do you know who I am " kind of world that many celebrities live in?

Well said. :groovy: Who needs more "do you know who I am" types? Blech.

But you know, my son just did a research report on the drinking/driving age/licensing issue. It seems that statistics do, in fact, show that when the drinking age was raised from 18 to 21, the "incidents" (or maybe it was crash fatalities) of/from drunk driving declined. Although, for teenagers, it appears that getting rid of passengers and other "distractions" (cell phones, ipods) yields the greatest decrease in "incidents."

Public transportation is good.

FlyQueen
January 23rd, 2007, 11:33 PM
Well said. :groovy: Who needs more "do you know who I am" types? Blech.

But you know, my son just did a research report on the drinking/driving age/licensing issue. It seems that statistics do, in fact, show that when the drinking age was raised from 18 to 21, the "incidents" (or maybe it was crash fatalities) of/from drunk driving declined. Although, for teenagers, it appears that getting rid of passengers and other "distractions" yields the greatest decrease in "incidents."

Public transportation is good.

Fort, fabulous new quote. I have nothing to add other than my strong opinion on this topic which I will refrain from sharing *gasp* it's shocking I know ...

The Fortress
January 23rd, 2007, 11:40 PM
Fort, fabulous new quote. I have nothing to add other than my strong opinion on this topic which I will refrain from sharing *gasp* it's shocking I know ...

I may have to smash you with a guitar if you don't fess up. It's too, too shocking for a loud flyer to remain silent! I may have to go in the backyard and resort to back walkovers. And you know how I hate going backward ... (I can't see who may be stabbing my lawyer-back.)

Warren
January 23rd, 2007, 11:48 PM
which is worse phelps dui or ghj failed drug test for marajauna.

FlyQueen
January 23rd, 2007, 11:50 PM
Ugh ... I'm so over the Phelps thing. I am first and foremost VERY opposed to drunk driving. I think there is absolutely NO excuse that justifies it. On the other hand he is/was a kid. He made a mistake and I think the way he handled it was amazing. He earned a ton of respect from me for that. Everyone makes mistakes and many are not as fortunate as Phelps - no one was hurt and he was able to walk away with only his repuation hurt.

HOPEFULLY, he has learned from this and will NEVER again repeat this mistake. Some people need to learn the hardway. He needs to realize that for the rest of his life he will THE MICHAEL PHELPS that swam in x number of Olympics and y medals. Even if he does something dumb at 56 he'll be in the papers. It's both a blessing and a curse.


So ... in short as long as he learns something from this I say it's time to move on ... NOTE: I agree with saying of forgive easily but remember forever ... or something like that ... I am just thankful no one was hurt, he is very lucky in that respect, and now he can and has moved on and it should be nothing more than a bleep on his record.

You learn more about someone's character in how they deal with adversity and if they rise after falling then you do simply by how well they do at the top ...

Muppet
January 23rd, 2007, 11:54 PM
I may have to smash you with a guitar if you don't fess up. It's too, too shocking for a loud flyer to remain silent! I may have to go in the backyard and resort to back walkovers. And you know how I hate going backward ... (I can't see who may be stabbing my lawyer-back.)

Please don't treat a guitar like that. Too beautiful an instrument to use in that way. :dedhorse:

FlyQueen
January 23rd, 2007, 11:56 PM
I may have to smash you with a guitar if you don't fess up. It's too, too shocking for a loud flyer to remain silent! I may have to go in the backyard and resort to back walkovers. And you know how I hate going backward ... (I can't see who may be stabbing my lawyer-back.)

By the way ... I don't know how backwalkovers would feel on the shoulders ... I am thinking they would be too stretched? Hmmm .. maybe a walking on your hands contest!?!!?!?! OHHH!! LOVE IT!

poolraat
January 23rd, 2007, 11:57 PM
[QUOTE=The Fortress;75652]This lawyer-bashing gets very tiresome./QUOTE]

But it's fun. And you're an easy target.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:banana: :banana:

The Fortress
January 24th, 2007, 12:01 AM
By the way ... I don't know how backwalkovers would feel on the shoulders ... I am thinking they would be too stretched? Hmmm .. maybe a walking on your hands contest!?!!?!?! OHHH!! LOVE IT!

No, gymnastics is no good for our shoulders, although mine are already loosey goosey. Maybe it was gymnastics, not gentics that made them that way ... Last time I did a bunch of front walkovers, however -- and yes, I can still do them despite being an old lawyer who drinks (not while driving) -- I kinda hurt my loosey goosey ankles, not my shoulders. Oh well. This probably falls into Ande's "look at me" category of injuries. So I'm abstaining.

But I am not abstaining from drinking. I have a glass of wine right here. In my house. No driving involved.

Warren:

Was ghj on the road or otherwise capable of harming others when he tested positive for pot?

Poolraat:

:thhbbb: You're on for breaststroke. Let's drink and swim. And then take public transportation home.

poolraat
January 24th, 2007, 12:06 AM
:thhbbb: You're on for breaststroke. Let's drink and swim. And then take public transportation home.

Drink and swim or swim and then drink? Breast after a few drinks would probably be the end of me.

Is this going to be a postal event?

swimr4life
January 24th, 2007, 12:11 AM
which is worse phelps dui or ghj failed drug test for marajauna.

Ok....I guess I've been living under a rock...who is ghj?:dunno:

Muppet
January 24th, 2007, 12:23 AM
Drink and swim or swim and then drink? Breast after a few drinks would probably be the end of me.

Thats a gatorade swig before the 100 breast, right?


Ok....I guess I've been living under a rock...who is ghj?:dunno:

ghj is the person in Warren's Avatar. was that test ever verified? i thought that was a non-confirmed rumor. ghj autographed my right breast at 04 scy nats. have digital video and camera proof.

The Fortress
January 24th, 2007, 12:29 AM
ghj is the person in Warren's Avatar. was that test ever verified? i thought that was a non-confirmed rumor. ghj autographed my right breast at 04 scy nats. have digital video and camera proof.

Exactly. I thought he tested postive twice, in 1996 and 1998. Wasn't he suspended and then the suspension was lifted or something? Didn't he argue marijuana wasn't performance-enhancing? Sounds like a lawyer defense. Marijuana's obviously illegal. And not advisble in a car. But I don't think he was in a car ... I think he was at a swim meet. Don't traces of marijuana stay in your system a long time and are therefore detectable even when you're "sober?"

swimr4life
January 24th, 2007, 12:36 AM
ghj is the person in Warren's Avatar. was that test ever verified? i thought that was a non-confirmed rumor. ghj autographed my right breast at 04 scy nats. have digital video and camera proof.

DOOH.....Gary Hall Jr.....ok now I feel stupid. As Emily Letella (SNL character Gilda Radner used to do) would say...."NEVER MIND!"

GHJ is a really nice guy. I met him at Nationals at Indianapolis. He was very friendly and gracious with all of us. He posed for pictures and signed autographs. I'm a big fan.:woot:

SwimStud
January 24th, 2007, 08:46 AM
GHJ is a really nice guy. I met him at Nationals at Indianapolis. He was very friendly and gracious with all of us. He posed for pictures and signed autographs. I'm a big fan.:woot:

He was probably hoping to find a few buddies to go get baked with...
:rofl: