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ALM
November 9th, 2004, 11:03 PM
I am doing a survey of how the LMSCs keep their swim records. Basically, I am asking whether each LMSC allows "outsiders" to set and hold records, or whether they allow their records to be set only by members of their LMSC.

I wrote to all of the LMSC Top Ten Recorders and Registrars and received responses from most of them. There are still a few LMSCs that I haven't heard from.

Below is a list of the LMSCs I have not heard from. I am also listing the results from all of the LMSCs who responded. If you are a member of one of the LMSCs I have not heard from, and if you know how your LMSC keeps its records (if it maintains records), please let me know. (NOTE that I am not asking about Zone records - just LMSC records.)

LMSCS I HAVE NOT HEARD FROM:
Border
Iowa
Lake Erie
Montana
New Mexico
North Dakota
Snake River
South Carolina
South Dakota
Southeastern
Wyoming

LMSCs THAT ALLOW ONLY THEIR MEMBERS TO SET RECORDS:
Adirondack
Alaska
Arizona
Central
Colorado
Connecticut
Florida Gold Coast
Georgia
Hawaii
Indiana

Inland Northwest
Kentucky
Maryland
Michigan
Midwestern
Minnesota
Missouri Valley
New England
New Jersey
Niagara
North Carolina
Ohio
Oregon
Ozark
Pacific
Pacific Northwest
San Diego-Imperial
Southern
Southern Pacific
Utah
Virginia
Wisconsin

LMSCS THAT ALLOW ANYONE TO SET THEIR RECORDS:
Florida

LMSCS THAT KEEP TWO SETS OF RECORDS ("CITIZEN" AND "OPEN"):
Arkansas
Oklahoma

LMSCS THAT DO NOT KEEP RECORDS:
Delaware Valley
Gulf
Midwestern
North Texas
Potomac Valley
South Texas

Frosty
November 10th, 2004, 08:26 PM
Interesting topic for a survey. What do you intend to do with the results?

If you wanted to expound on the survey a little, you could also ask the LMSCs if they record records for swims set by their members in competitions outside the LMSC (e.g. in a meet in a neighboring LMSC, or Nationals, or in a foreign country, or in a USA-swimming event) or if the "records" are simply for that LMSC's sanctioned meets.

As a side note...how do you (or anyone can chime in) value such recordkeeping? Is it an important value-added service of your LMSC, mildly important, or do you really not care that much about it? It seems that there's a range of views on this, given that some LMSCs keep no records at all and others do.

Allen Stark
November 10th, 2004, 10:55 PM
I have been in Oregon for the last 16 years and we are very organized here and keep all sorts of records. I love it. Its great to know how you compare with everyone else. I swam in Houston before that and it was not nearly as organized(at least then.) I really like having records kept!

ALM
November 11th, 2004, 12:06 AM
Virtually every one of the "members only" LMSCs said that their swimmers can set their LMSC records anywhere in the country. For example, a Missouri Valley swimmer can compete at Nationals in Florida, break a Missouri Valley record, and submit it to the Missouri Valley recordkeeper.

I initiated the survey to prove a point. Let's just leave it at that!

As for the value of records, I'd have to conclude that most people must like them. I didn't include the numbers in my original post, but based on the USMS 2003 registration numbers, here's how many people are represented in each category:

LMSCs THAT ALLOW ONLY THEIR MEMBERS TO SET RECORDS: 32,464 swimmers

LMSCS THAT ALLOW ANYONE TO SET THEIR RECORDS: 623 swimmers

LMSCS THAT KEEP TWO SETS OF RECORDS ("CITIZEN" AND "OPEN"): 169 swimmers

LMSCS THAT DO NOT KEEP RECORDS: 7,059 swimmers

PRECINCTS NOT REPORTING: 2,174 swimmers (sorry, I guess I read too many election news stories)

I wouldn't assume that the LMSCs that don't keep records don't value them. I received several comments that indicated that some of them just don't have anyone willing to put in the time and effort to maintain records.

Again, the "precincts not reporting" are: Border, Iowa, Lake Erie, Montana, New Mexico, North Dakota, Snake River, South Carolina, South Dakota, Southeastern, and Wyoming. If any of you know whether these LMSCs keep records, please let me know.

Swimmer Bill
November 11th, 2004, 01:26 PM
Hi Anna Lea,

I know of a few LMSCs that also have all-time top ten lists (New England, PNA, and Oregon). These groups' lists are open to swimmers who belong to clubs within the LMSC, but not to swimmers from outside the LMSC who compete in the LMSC.

PNA recently produced a SCY list, and NE-LMSC has maintained lists for all three pool courses for several years. Oregon LMSC has an all-time top 12 list for postal long distance events. Having been involved with the beginnings of the Oregon project, I have started an all-time top ten list for NE-LMSC for postal long distance events. We will complete the project as soon as early results become available. I understand the LD Committee has an historian to plow through past event results and prepare them for posting on the internet.

By the way, personally, I find these lists to be great motivators. Few people can set records in LMSCs with large membership and strong swimming tradition. More people can achieve the all-time top ten for the LMSC. It has also been my personal experience that reaching the goal of making the LMSC top ten has resulted in also making the USMS national top ten.

Swimmer Bill

Seagurl51
November 11th, 2004, 01:44 PM
I don't think that Snake River has enough swimmers for there to be record of them. But I don't know for sure. If they do keep a record book, that would be a very small book!!

~Kyra

Frosty
November 12th, 2004, 07:57 PM
I initiated the survey to prove a point. Let's just leave it at that!

Sorry, WRONG ANSWER. A national committee chairperson doesn't just go poking around LMSCs to satisfy his or her own curiousity...especially for something outside of his or her own sphere of influence.

Just what point are your trying to prove? (If I may ask.)

As for the value of records, I'd have to conclude that most people must like them.

I'm certain that a strong majority of USMS members also pay federal and local taxes, or provide membership dues to this organization...but that doesn't mean that we must like them. I challenge your line of reasoning here.

I wouldn't assume that the LMSCs that don't keep records don't value them. I received several comments that indicated that some of them just don't have anyone willing to put in the time and effort to maintain records.

I would've tended to agree with you here. However, by your own math, there is a pool of over seven thousand swimmers of which NOBODY (0.00%) wants to tend to records. (Even Ralph Nader got SOME votes...yea, I watched too much election stuff also.) Just a thought.

- Dan

kaffrinn
November 12th, 2004, 11:30 PM
I think LMSC records are great motivators, and I love the idea of a LMSC top ten list as well. Local records help motivate me throughout the season, something I desperately need as a solo-and-often-lazy practice swimmer. National records are a bit lofty for me at this point! :) I really appreciate all the work that goes into local/state and national record-keeping and I hope the tradition expands and continues.

Rob Copeland
November 14th, 2004, 06:42 PM
I initiated the survey to prove a point. Let's just leave it at that!

Sorry, WRONG ANSWER. A national committee chairperson doesn't just go poking around LMSCs to satisfy his or her own curiosity...especially for something outside of his or her own sphere of influence.


Dan, just because Anna Lea is a committee chair shouldn’t mean that she is not allowed to do other things for USMS or her LMSC. Like many of us, Anna Lea is a volunteer who wars many hats locally and nationally within USMS. Her choice to delve into areas of interest, outside of the committee she chairs should be applauded, unless she used her position as Registration committee chair to exert influence or if she was performing this survey for pay, I don’t see any reason to consider her actions wrong.

In fact I think this is excellent information for whoever is elected as the USMS vice present of local operations, next year. This may help develop improved local standards and practices, to bring a better more consistent USMS to all members.

ALM
November 14th, 2004, 07:34 PM
Thanks, Rob. I wrote a private reply to Dan; I will give a brief explanation here.

A swimmer from outside my LMSC (Missouri Valley) has complained for two years now about not being able to set Missouri Valley records when he comes to our meets. I began to wonder whether we did it differently than other LMSCs. That's why I initiated the survey. It had nothing to do with me being the chair of the Registration Committee.

I surveyed the Top Ten recorders. As I received replies, I discovered that a lot of them weren't aware that different LMSCs have different policies. Most of them assumed that everyone restricted their LMSC records to their own swimmers.


I am trying to complete the survey for exactly the reason that Rob states. I will give the results to USMS; it's interesting information and might come in handy someday.