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mark_varney47
December 21st, 2004, 12:28 PM
Are flip turns all that fast when you consider how much oxygen they take up??.I have found that I am more able to swim at a regular tempo by doing "open" turns, than trying to do flip turns, which always put me out of my regular breathing pattern.:(

Kevin in MD
December 21st, 2004, 12:32 PM
A mediocre flip turn is much faster, a good flip turn is a weapon.

As you practice them three things happen. You become better at them so you don't expend as much energy. Becoming better at them also means you do them faster, less breath holding time. The third thing is that you will build up more tolerance to the high levels of CO2 that come with holding your breath.

I think many problems come from us not actually practicing them. It is a skill that we should dedicate time to every week.

mjtyson
December 21st, 2004, 12:45 PM
I heard you could save as much as 1-2 sec per lap with two flip turns...that adds up when doing some of the longer swims. Heck, that time-savings could add up even with a short race.

mark_varney47
December 21st, 2004, 01:19 PM
My flip turns have to be the worst that anybody could witness.Basically,I get my balance all wrong as soon as I try to bend and bring my feet over my head.Then I end up on my side with my feet barely making contact with the wall.:mad:

Leonard Jansen
December 21st, 2004, 02:11 PM
I do open turns because my back injury precludes flip turns. Although I have a fast open turn, I get eaten alive by the flip turn people. So, yes, flip turns are significantly faster. Definately worth the practice.

-LBJ

CCSR79
December 21st, 2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by mark_varney47
My flip turns have to be the worst that anybody could witness.

Just make sure to practice, practice, practice! With time you'll get better and they'll become much faster. Plus I feel that with a flip turn I'm not losing the momento of my swim, they don't interrupt my pace. Plus, they're fun!!!

Dave60625
December 21st, 2004, 02:38 PM
There is a pretty good article with diagrams over at H20ustonswims.org. Go to the article section and read the article called "Slim and Darrell" or something along those lines. It has some decent diagrams that help explain the proper technique.

I'll see if I can get the url and then will paste it here.

UPDATE:

There is not a direct link to the article. Here is the url for the site:

http://www.h2oustonswims.org/

The article is titled "Slim and Darrell (or Faster Flip Turns for the Masses)"

scooter
December 21st, 2004, 03:03 PM
Flip turns are definitely worth the effort. Once mastered, you will probably not want to go back to open turns - I didn't!

There are several good articles in about.swimming.com on flip turning. One concept starts with standing in the pool and learning how to tumble over, then stand back up. Once you get your orientation, work on quicker movements, then start moving toward the wall.

Another piece of advice given to me, don't try to do it all at once. Separate the parts of the turn, adding as you go, such as flipping, planting your feet, releasing and streamlining. Good Luck!

aquageek
December 21st, 2004, 05:06 PM
I'll put this bluntly - without a flip turn, you can't hope to be competitive.

jim clemmons
December 21st, 2004, 05:23 PM
I'll put this bluntly - without a flip turn, you can't hope to be competitive.

With the possible exception of 80+ age groups........

Hope to find out some day.:) That is, of course, assuming I can't still manage a flip turn at that point in life.

Jim

Guvnah
December 21st, 2004, 05:48 PM
Flip turn video HERE (http://swimming.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.goswim.tv/articles/dotw/flipseq.html)

(Just clicked it. Didn't work. Don't know if that's temporary. It was working not too long ago... Maybe try again tomorrow.)

mbriones
December 21st, 2004, 06:20 PM
I learned flip turns in one day (please don't hate me) I guess it has to do with the fact that I used to be a gymnast so I have good spacial relationships with things. Knowing where to initiate the flip turn is the key, I think. I used to freak out about doing them in the shallow end, but if you roll yourself into a tight ball, you can clear the bottom.

I think they definitely do save time, and plus you get this big thrust off the wall. For me, they are the reward at the end of a lap too - makes me feel like a water mermaid princess, thin, graceful girl for a moment....

I do experience water going into my left ear when I do my barrel roll but wearing an ear plug in that ear remedies this.

Dave60625
December 21st, 2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by mbriones
For me, they are the reward at the end of a lap too - makes me feel like a water mermaid princess, thin, graceful girl for a moment....


Yeah Marian, I think we've all been there!

:eek:

Fred Johnson
December 21st, 2004, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by mark_varney47
My flip turns have to be the worst that anybody could witness.Basically,I get my balance all wrong as soon as I try to bend and bring my feet over my head.Then I end up on my side with my feet barely making contact with the wall.:mad:

Use the T on the bottom of the pool and practice just your flip turn at the wall to learn when to start your turn. Doing 10 or so at once can really help you gauge your distance.

You want to end up on your side, pushing off (as opposed to facing up or facing the bottom). As you push off the wall, your body turns to the face down position.

jpjackson76
December 22nd, 2004, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by mark_varney47
Are flip turns all that fast when you consider how much oxygen they take up??.I have found that I am more able to swim at a regular tempo by doing "open" turns, than trying to do flip turns, which always put me out of my regular breathing pattern.:(

Much faster, learn them well and you'll be a happy camper!

CCSR79
December 22nd, 2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by mark_varney47
Are flip turns all that fast when you consider how much oxygen they take up??

Also you're probably exhaling too much during your flip turn (many people do to avoid getting water up their nose) -- with time you learn to hold your breath so you don't have to exhale during it, saving your breath for a few kicks until you clear the water!

gull
December 22nd, 2004, 08:59 AM
I'll put this bluntly--without a flip turn, you can't hope to be competitive.


Originally posted by jim clemmons
With the possible exception of 80+ age groups........


Good point. My 82 year old dad posted three top ten times this year for scm--without flip turns. As the baby boomers age, perhaps we'll see a wave (pun intended) of octogenarians doing flip turns in the next thirty years.

mark_varney47
December 22nd, 2004, 09:01 AM
Gee thanks everybody thanks for all this useful advice.I will now try and put it into practice.Have a Happy Holiday everyone!!!!!!!:D

Gareth Eckley
December 22nd, 2004, 11:06 AM
Good to hear from you again Mark ! Hope all is well with you. Keep practicing and they will get better.

Cheers, Gareth:)

knelson
December 22nd, 2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by aquageek
I'll put this bluntly - without a flip turn, you can't hope to be competitive.

This reminds me of a story. At last year's Nationals in Indy I was waiting behind the blocks and a couple heats ahead of me was a men's relay team. These guys were probably all in their 50s and all wearing the expensive full-body suits. The funny thing is they all did open turns! I'm thinking to myself "shouldn't you learn how to do flip turns before you buy the fancy suit?" To me it's analogous to a skier who can only snowplow using Bode Miller's skis :)

LindsayNB
December 22nd, 2004, 01:37 PM
I read an article on adjustments for aging masters swimmers and it suggested that as we get older their comes a point where the open turn becomes preferred, mostly to maintain the flow of oxygen. I'm not sure if it said so in the article but there may also be a point where the slower speed no longer provides the momentum to get an advantage from the flip turn and it is better to just concentrate on getting a good streamlined push off the wall.

Guvnah
December 22nd, 2004, 02:48 PM
Personally, I find that I get a better push-off when I do an open turn (by at least an additional body length). I think that's because I get my body closer to the wall on the open turn, so therefore I get a fuller "spring" out of my legs. So on a flip turn I might get 7-8 yards off the wall on the push, and with the open turn I get 10. (Our lane lines have a mark at 10 yards out, and I consistently hit that on an open turn or on my initial push off to start the set, so that's how I know it's 10.)

I also appreciate the extra breath on the open turn.

But having said that, I still almost always do a flip turn, and it is faster by far. What I gain from the push on the open turn does not beat what I gain from the speed of turning around (open vs flip). Nor does it compensate for the fact that on a flip turn I don't have to swim all the way to the wall. (We could say that on an open turn your head gets all the way to the wall. On the flip it only goes some distance away from the wall, and that distance depends on how well you do a flip.) For me it's about one stroke less that if I do an open turn.

DAP
January 1st, 2005, 01:28 PM
I just recently started to attempt to do flip turns. I practiced by repetitively swimming at the wall from about 10 meters away, trying it again and again until I got a good feel for the timing. I got pretty good at that. My problem now is that when I swim the full length of the pool, I have trouble getting the timing right when I'm at the wall. I assume it is just a matter of more practice to get it right.

Dave60625
January 1st, 2005, 02:35 PM
Dave,

I have done that as well. One other thing I do that seems to help is I will swim 25 yards and try to be as efficient with my stroke as I can (typically 12 - 14 strokes) and then I will do a flip turn. After the flip turn I will go back to the wall I just flipped from and start a new 25.

This seems to help in a couple different ways. For one, swimming with an efficient stroke just seems easier for me when doing a full 25 than starting my stroke from 10 or 15 yards out. Another is that I have heard you are supposed to accelerate into the turn and I just find that easier to do when swimming the full 25. And finally, as you mentioned, you get a chance to practice the timing over and over again and you will get a sense of where you need to start your flip turn.

I am still working on getting my flip turns down so I am dealing with a lot of the same stuff you are. This is what seems to be working for me right now.

mbriones
January 1st, 2005, 04:19 PM
I'm one of those disgusting people that flip turns come naturally to. I think it's my years (a while back now) when I did 'spacial' (not special! having to do with spacial relationships) things like gymnastics and figure skating.

I hear every pool is different on determining where to start your turn. I generally wait until I have crossed the "T" do one stroke, then flip. I learned to put both arms out in front of me once I flip and that sets me up for whatever arm motions are required of whatever stroke I am doing.

I wear an ear plug in my left ear because when I do the half turn after the flip, my ear is up and water tends to go in and that's never good.

-Marian

swim53
January 2nd, 2005, 12:29 AM
A mediocre flip turn is much faster, a good flip turn is a weapon.
I agree. How many saw Sabir last spring at sc nat's in Indy? Whoa...