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swimpastor
December 30th, 2004, 08:14 AM
If one of the kids I coach wanted to swim a 1:58 200 free, and is in good health and can swim a :54 flat 100 free, what splits should they target for their 4 50's? I know that the 200 is the longest sprint, but how does :27, :30, :31, :30 sound? Thanks for the input.

Joe

Rob Copeland
December 30th, 2004, 09:43 AM
Joe,

Those times look fine, depending on the sprint/distance ability of the swimmer. My only suggestion would be NOT to drop a whole second on the third 50 and maybe hold back a touch on the first 50. I would have him shoot for something like: 27.5 ; 29.9 ; 30.4 ; 30.1 for a 1:57.9

I based these splits on some statistics I pulled from the Georgia USA-S state meet of the top 20 times in the boys 200 free, with times ranging from 1:36 to 1:50. And a couple of interesting observations about the top 5 swimmers – the second 50 was slower than the third 50 for 3 of 5 and the final 50 for each was slower than the third 50 for all 5. Which gets back to something my coaches used to tell me, work the third 50, that’s where races are won or lost.

swimpastor
December 30th, 2004, 11:16 AM
Thanks, Rob! I really appreciate the stats and the assistance. This coaching thing has somewhat negatively impacted my own pool time, but it sure is gratifying.

Joe

Guvnah
December 30th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Interesting stats, Rob.

Far more scientific and analytical than the method I have used:

First 50 -- Not all-out. Get a feel for the water. Don't fall too far behind.

Middle 100 -- Sprint it like a 100 race.

Last 50 -- Survive.

:)

knelson
December 31st, 2004, 01:22 PM
My opinion is a well split 200 would be a :58 then a 1:00 for the 100s.

ande
February 11th, 2005, 05:40 PM
from observing splits at the olympics
the really good swimmers tended to go
25.0 27.0 27.0 27.0

then try to hold the next three close

it's best to not have much fade when you compare
the first hundred to the second hundred
it's hard to hold back to split a 200 correctly

if your swimmer can go a 54.0 in the 100
he should be at or under 1:58 in the 200
depending if he's a better sprinter or 500 swimmer

if he's a better 500 swimmer he could go 1:54 - 1:56 in the 200 with 54.0 speed.

I'd throw out the 31 and tell him to be around or under 30



Originally posted by swimpastor
If one of the kids I coach wanted to swim a 1:58 200 free, and is in good health and can swim a :54 flat 100 free, what splits should they target for their 4 50's? I know that the 200 is the longest sprint, but how does :27, :30, :31, :30 sound? Thanks for the input.

Joe

Rob Copeland
February 13th, 2005, 03:20 PM
Since this thread is still active, please allow a father’s indulgence…

At the Georgia High School Championships my sons splits in his 200 free were:
23.67 25.28 25.38 25.66 (1:39.99)

He is a better at middle distance swimming rather than sprinting, so as Ande mentioned a sprinter may be out a little faster and fade more.

knelson
February 13th, 2005, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland
Since this thread is still active, please allow a father’s indulgence…

At the Georgia High School Championships my sons splits in his 200 free were:
23.67 25.28 25.38 25.66 (1:39.99)

Awesome swim. Congrats to your son!

aquageek
February 13th, 2005, 06:17 PM
I don't keep up on fast high school times but that looks darn fast to me. I can only dream of swimming that fast. Is that Div. 1 scholarship material?

Rob Copeland
February 13th, 2005, 08:11 PM
He’s not Auburn, Stanford or Florida fast, but he is being recruited by some of the better Division 1 programs around and they are discussing scholarship potential. YEA!

Fred Johnson
February 13th, 2005, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Rob Copeland
Since this thread is still active, please allow a father’s indulgence…

At the Georgia High School Championships my sons splits in his 200 free were:
23.67 25.28 25.38 25.66 (1:39.99)

He is a better at middle distance swimming rather than sprinting, so as Ande mentioned a sprinter may be out a little faster and fade more.

That's a blazing 200! How old is your son? I imagine when he gets some collegiate workouts in him, he will drop even this fast time. Congratulations on a great athlete.

On the 200 splits, I was always coached to go out fast on the first 50, pick it up on the second 50, all out on the 3rd 50 and hold on for the last 50. I noticed Guvnah got the same coaching. It looks like your son's splits reflect the same kind of swim. But less than 4/10ths between the 2d and last 50 is not holding on in the final 50 as much as just plain old smokin' the whole thing.

Rob Copeland
February 14th, 2005, 09:08 AM
Fred, Thanks! My son (Noah) is 17 and a senior this year. He has great age group and HS coaches who have helped him tremendously and I hope he goes on to greater improvements as a college and Masters swimmer!

And for the other High School swimmers out there, hard work, dedication and good coaching does pay off. As a freshman, Noah’s best 200 was 2:00.5 and didn’t qualify for state, as a sophomore he went 1:50.5 and made top 16 at state, as a junior he went 1:45.3 for 3rd place and this year he went the 1:39.99 for second place. While your mileage may vary, everyone should set goals and strive to reach them. It’s an amazing feeling when they are achieved.

aquageek
February 14th, 2005, 09:16 AM
I have been coached by 50 to do fast, pace, build, sprint. It usually ends up being sprint, slow, build, puke however.

gull
February 14th, 2005, 09:50 AM
As a Masters swimmer, I fall into the category of fast, pace, fade and disappear. I blame my coach (me).

I just feel fortunate I only have to contend (and I use the term loosely) with one Copeland in my age group. Talk about good genes.

shark
February 15th, 2005, 01:35 PM
Rob,

That is a great swim for your son. I have always been taught that a 200 swim should be evenly split. You will always get a two second jump on your first 50 due to the start. 23, 25, 25, 25 with tenths should be a 1:38low to 1:39high. That is what we trained for in college. My high school kids are not All-American yet such as your son, so we just try to get them into the 40's: 25mid, 27mid, 27mid, 27mid = 1:48 with a couple of highs for 1:49. Your son will go high in the draft. Congratulations.

To answer the beginning thread question. The 200 is not a sprint, it is a fast pace swim. The start should be two seconds faster than the other three with those three being evenly split. Comfy, attack, legs, get home x 50. Good Luck.

jbroadri
February 15th, 2005, 03:31 PM
so what does it take to get from 31, 33, 33, 33 (2:10) down to 28, 30, 30, 30 to break 2:00? Intervals with little rest or sprint swims with longer rest?

Fred Johnson
February 15th, 2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by jbroadri
so what does it take to get from 31, 33, 33, 33 (2:10) down to 28, 30, 30, 30 to break 2:00? Intervals with little rest or sprint swims with longer rest?

Others will have more insight into this question, but I am willing to bet that "both" is the answer. Intervals longer than 200 with short rest and sprints with longer rest both have a place in training for a 200. As someone said a couple comments back, the 200 isn't a sprint its a fast paced middle distance race. But the first 50 is very fast as you can see from some of the representative times here. But you have to be able to post a fast first 50 and still have something left for the balance. The last 50 is also in essence a sprint to get home. So, that tells me that both of your inclinations are correct. Rob Copeland's son should weigh in on this question, though. He's got the rapid improvement over 3 years to prove what works.

Rob Copeland
February 16th, 2005, 08:47 AM
I agree with Fred, you need both distance work and sprint work. Along with stroke technique work, race pace training and possibly weigh training. And time.

Without knowing what it took for you to get to the 2:10 200, it is difficult to prescribe a simple solution. For instance, if you are currently training year-round, 5-6 days a week averaging 25,000 to 40,000 yards per week, then the answer is probably not adding more yards.

Fred, my son is not yet addicted to the USMS discussion forum, so I’ll try to reply in his stead. In his 5 years of swimming, Noah has been blessed with tremendous coaches who have worked him hard and more importantly kept him enthused and motivated. He is also blessed with a “swimmers body”, long arms, big hands, flexible joints, and high buoyancy. He swims on a year-round program, along side some other great kids, and this year has added weight training to his training regime.

justforfun
February 16th, 2005, 12:51 PM
I also agree with Fred and Rob...the 200 is a difficult distance, maybe the most difficult. You have to have a sprinter's speed and yet a middle-distance swimmer's endurance. The 200 is where sprinters and endurance swimmers meet in the middle. So, you have to mix speed work with volume to go really fast!

jbroadri
February 16th, 2005, 01:41 PM
Well, as an adult swimmer in his 30s with a child and a full time job, I'm nowhere near 30k yards per week. I swim 3-4 times a week 3-4k yards per practice (coach makes up the workouts and they are not specific to my goals, but for the all around swimmer). I didn't get in the pool unil Sept of '04 (was a HS swimmer). I know I need to swim more, but my question is how should I swim the additional yards. I can probably get 1 more workout per week in on the weekend. I was thinking of having it be a longer session (5-6k yards), but how to do them to meet my goals of getting my 500 back down to 5:30ish (from 6:10ish) and my 200 <2:00 is beyond me. Perhaps I should ask over in workouts instead of general.

gull
February 16th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Great question. I think you have to train at several different levels--En1, En2, En3 as well as sprints--but how much of each? The answer may depend on the individual. Most Masters swimmers have a limited amount of time, and it's difficult to fit that many sets into 15-20,000 yards/week.

Karen Duggan
February 16th, 2005, 03:18 PM
Scissors! Start with the entry:p

Rob Copeland
February 16th, 2005, 05:49 PM
If you’ve been out of the pool for 12 or so years, only back 6 months, and already swimming 2:10 200’s it sounds like you are making good improvement already.

How fast were you in HS? And what did it take to get those times?

jbroadri
February 17th, 2005, 12:00 PM
PRs as a senior in HS: 200 free of 1:55 500 free of 5:09

That after swimming during the season only (pretty much a couch potato 9 months of the year) with about 40k yards per week during the season.

Now planning to swim year-round, but most of the summer will be maintenence swims (2-3 days per week ~10k yards/week) since its tri season and I have to cycle and run also.

I'm both satisfied with my progress and totally frustrated at the same time. I don't know if I can get back down to my PR HS times, but I think <2 & <5:30 are reasonable, since I hit those times as a freshman in HS.

LindsayNB
February 17th, 2005, 12:55 PM
What are your current 50 and 100 times?
How much rest do you currently need between them to do 4x50 in 30s each?
How to train depends on what you can currently do and what is limiting you. A single time for the 200 is not enough information to know what you need to improve.

jbroadri
February 17th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
What are your current 50 and 100 times?
How much rest do you currently need between them to do 4x50 in 30s each?


My 50 time is 26.0. My 100 I don't know, I haven't done it in a meet. If I want to do 50s on the 30s I need about 1:30 swim interval, or 1:00 rest.

Fred Johnson
February 18th, 2005, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by LindsayNB
What are your current 50 and 100 times?
How much rest do you currently need between them to do 4x50 in 30s each?
How to train depends on what you can currently do and what is limiting you. A single time for the 200 is not enough information to know what you need to improve.

When you say 4x50 in the 30s, are you asking about holding 50s between 30 and 40 seconds? How low in the 30s? I can hold 36 to 38 with 50s on the 1:00. Maybe on the :55. Am I in the range you are thinking of or are you saying 50s at :30 holding? Just wondering and trying to see where I fall?

Thanks for the clarification.

dan77hunedoara
February 21st, 2005, 02:02 AM
if your kid swims 54.00 the 100 flat maybe you should start the first 1oo with 56.00-56.50 and on the second half try to mentain your pace in under a minute.
1.50- 27.00
2.50- 29.5
3.50- 30.5
4.50-29.5
please excuse my spelling i am not american
dan77hunedoara

jbroadri
February 21st, 2005, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Fred Johnson
When you say 4x50 in the 30s, are you asking about holding 50s between 30 and 40 seconds? How low in the 30s? I can hold 36 to 38 with 50s on the 1:00. Maybe on the :55. Am I in the range you are thinking of or are you saying 50s at :30 holding? Just wondering and trying to see where I fall?

Thanks for the clarification.

I took that to mean how much rest is required to hold 4x50 coming in at :30. Meaning 30 seconds flat for the 50. My answer was 1:30, meaning that I can swim a 50 in 29-30 seconds, rest 1 minute and then do it again 3 more times. I assume the question was directed at pointing out that you must do 4x50 in :30 even to get a 2:00 200 free.

ande
February 22nd, 2005, 07:42 PM
which is perfect

i too once went 1:39.99 in the 200 free
i think my first 50 was 22.5 and
things went downhill from there.

ande


Originally posted by Rob Copeland
Since this thread is still active, please allow a father’s indulgence…

At the Georgia High School Championships my sons splits in his 200 free were:
23.67 25.28 25.38 25.66 (1:39.99)

He is a better at middle distance swimming rather than sprinting, so as Ande mentioned a sprinter may be out a little faster and fade more.

ande
February 22nd, 2005, 07:46 PM
i'd agree
when you're legs go you're gone

ande


Originally posted by shark
Rob,

That is a great swim for your son. I have always been taught that a 200 swim should be evenly split. You will always get a two second jump on your first 50 due to the start. 23, 25, 25, 25 with tenths should be a 1:38low to 1:39high. That is what we trained for in college. My high school kids are not All-American yet such as your son, so we just try to get them into the 40's: 25mid, 27mid, 27mid, 27mid = 1:48 with a couple of highs for 1:49. Your son will go high in the draft. Congratulations.

To answer the beginning thread question. The 200 is not a sprint, it is a fast pace swim. The start should be two seconds faster than the other three with those three being evenly split. Comfy, attack, legs, get home x 50. Good Luck.