PDA

View Full Version : 200 IM and 400 IM



SwiminONandON
February 1st, 2005, 03:46 PM
For some reason or another I have become and IMmer. Why I'm not exactly sure, I guess I like a challenge. I have always been a sprinter so this idea of there being a strategy to a race is new to me. I am however signed up for some 200 and 400 IMs at future meets. (I am able to handle these distances) But my question is what exactly should my race strategy be on a 200 IM? A 400 IM?

Thanks!

EyeoreSAM
February 1st, 2005, 03:57 PM
I only swam the 400 once and it wasn't pretty.

I did swim the 200 quite often. My coach always said that the 200 IM was an all out sprint.

fatboy
February 1st, 2005, 04:04 PM
Strategy for the IM always depends on your ability in each of the strokes. As a sprinter you will probably want to make sure you do go out too fast so you can take advantage of your speed at the end.

etrain
February 1st, 2005, 04:49 PM
200 - sprint each stroke, if you can try to split the fly and free the same.
400 - work the second 50 of each 100. I can usually negative split everything except the butterfly.

I would much rather swim a 400 than a 200 because the 200 is just an all out sprint.

Hope this helps.

etrain

tjrpatt
February 1st, 2005, 06:14 PM
In your training, work to improve your weakest stroke of the IM.

knelson
February 1st, 2005, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by etrain
200 - sprint each stroke, if you can try to split the fly and free the same.

I don't agree with this. Your fly split should be a second or two faster than your free or you're taking it out too slow, IMO.

shark
February 2nd, 2005, 11:43 AM
I have my swimmers adhere to this rule:
1. take the fly out fast, but not overextended, with a lot of air, 2up/1down breathing

2. the backstroke leg should not be any slower than 5 seconds slower than the fly split

3. the breaststroke leg should not be any slower than 5 seconds slower than the back leg

4. freestyle split as fast or as close as you can get it to the free split.

a good swim split in this fashion. 25, 30, 35, 26 with tenths and you have 1:56 high to 1:58 low which would qualify for our HS state swimming meet, of course this could adjust to the specific swimmers stroke ability

You can adjust the splits to your needs. This is just what I have been taught.

knelson
February 2nd, 2005, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by shark
a good swim split in this fashion. 25, 30, 35, 26 with tenths and you have 1:56 high to 1:58 low

Those would be splits for a really good freestyler. I'd think most people who can finish a 200 IM with a 26 second freestyle split would be in the low 1:50s.

Your advice is good, though. I'd like to be able to swim a good IM, but I have two big problems called backstroke and breaststroke :)

Alicat
February 2nd, 2005, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by knelson
I have two big problems called backstroke and breaststroke :)

That reminds me of when I swam an IM and just didn't do the breaststroke leg. I was the fastest one there that meet...:D

SWinkleblech
February 3rd, 2005, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by Alicat
That reminds me of when I swam an IM and just didn't do the breaststroke leg. I was the fastest one there that meet...:D

An I.M. without breaststroke? Since I am a terrible breaststroker that would be a perfect event for me.

EyeoreSAM
February 3rd, 2005, 10:22 AM
I would love an IM with no breast---that would be the perfect event.

I am a perfect example of retrograde motion when I do breast---it's not pretty.

etrain
February 3rd, 2005, 05:56 PM
We have a few swimmers that prefer to have the lights off when they swim breaststroke. And sometimes I wish the lights were off when they do breaststroke.

etrain

SWinkleblech
February 3rd, 2005, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by etrain
We have a few swimmers that prefer to have the lights off when they swim breaststroke. And sometimes I wish the lights were off when they do breaststroke.

etrain

That would be me. :D

Fred Johnson
February 3rd, 2005, 10:55 PM
Originally posted by etrain
We have a few swimmers that prefer to have the lights off when they swim breaststroke. And sometimes I wish the lights were off when they do breaststroke.

etrain

There's a totally sophmoric joke in there but I will try to act mature. :D

swimr4life
February 4th, 2005, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the chuckle...I had the same thought!;)

AnnG
February 4th, 2005, 02:30 PM
Heather, I too am enjoying training for 400 IM, I am doing a LOT of breaststroke as this is a very important leg in any medley and probably my weakest stroke. Since I learned how to swim breast many years ago I have an old fashioned stroke and I am trying very hard to improve my timing and change my pull to the new way. Also doing a lot of hard 400's and 200's and broken IM's at those distances. Remember in order to swim fast you have to practice swimming fast!
As for race strategy, the 200 IM is a sprint, 4x50's, plain and simple. I am working on the 400 and I try to build up to the breaststroke leg then sprint from there to the (sometimes bitter) end. Have fun with it!

SwiminONandON
February 4th, 2005, 05:17 PM
Thanks all! I am a good freestyler. I have a pretty good fly (when I think head, butt, head, butt) and a good backstroke (when I want to). My breaststroke is definitely my weak leg. I finally figured out how to swim it technically well. I get the water jet feeling in my legs and all (despite my sometimes less than perfect kick) but it is slower than dirt. I'm hoping that at a longer distance (the 200 and 400) that I'll be able to get ahead in the fly and back not let everyone totally kill me in the breast and catch anyone in the free. That is my plan at least ... it probably won't work out that way, but oh well ...

I do a LOT of IM in practice. I had a set of 1400 yards all IM a couple of weeks ago. The last 400 IM in that set was less than pretty- well the fly was less than pretty, the back was restful and the last 200 was on "cruise".

Thanks for all the good advice!

Peter Cruise
February 4th, 2005, 08:17 PM
1. I try to survive the fly
2. I rest up on the back
3. I go like stink on the breast
4. I hang on during the free

jean sterling
February 4th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
1. I try to survive the fly
2. I rest up on the back
3. I go like stink on the breast
4. I hang on during the free

That resembles my strategy. Back is my weakest stroke, and after fly it is delightful to rest on the backstroke. However, I have found that if I am too restful on the backstroke I will swim a poor time, whereas if I swim the backstroke with a bit of gusto I will have a good IM. For me, the backstroke leg seems to be the key even if I do pretty much stink at it. Breast and fly are probably my strong points.

SWinkleblech
February 5th, 2005, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Peter Cruise
1. I try to survive the fly
2. I rest up on the back
3. I go like stink on the breast
4. I hang on during the free

Since my backstroke is my strong strong I can't rest. I need take advantage of that stroke knowing that the nightmare stroke is coming. This stratgy does work for me. I had someone joke with her husband that I beat him on the backstroke.

Karen Duggan
February 5th, 2005, 10:47 PM
I always cruise the fly and negative split the rest of the race. That works for me. I've tried it many different ways. I've taken the fly out in 1:03, did well in the middle 200 and died in the free, like I always do. It's the bane of my existence! With your great free, you'll do well in the IM's.
I've always enjoyed the 400 because it's like an obstacle course-and the lead frequently changes :) (except when Nadine is swimming!).
Have fun :)

ande
February 11th, 2005, 04:43 PM
200 IM?

get a great start, go fast and relaxed in the fly
save your legs a little
breathe
legal turns

do a fast fly to back turn
stay fast and relaxed on back, breathe a lot,
it's gonna start to burn a little

do a fast back to breast turn
do a full underwater pull out,
work the breast stroke, be efficient
the burn is increasing

do a fast breast to free turn
six beat kick the whole way and
swim as fast as you can and bring it home
it should burn pretty bad
get a great touch, get your hand on the wall.

most importantly do the training
to be well prepared for this event


400 IM
be long and relaxed
save your legs in fly and back
breathe a lot
if you take it out too hard you'll be hurting in the breast and free

work the breast
do full underwater pull outs
bring the free home as best you can.



Originally posted by SwiminONandON
my question is what exactly should my race strategy be on a 200 IM?
A 400 IM?
Thanks!

mattson
February 11th, 2005, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
I always cruise the fly and negative split the rest of the race.

Karen, I hope you mean negative split by 100, otherwise that is an amazing breaststroke you have! :)

Karen Duggan
February 13th, 2005, 02:22 AM
Mark, you are as smart as I think you are! :p

jbroadri
February 14th, 2005, 12:12 PM
I'm doing a 400 IM for the first time in my life and I need to figure out a seed time. I can do a 100 IM in 1:07, a 200 IM in about 2:30 and was thinking that 5:30 would probably be about right, but I am a little afraid I'll die and end up with more like 6:00. Any suggestions?

My race strategy will be: 1. try to relax on the fly. I usually die after 50 fly, so this will be hard. my 100 fly time alone is about 1:15 2. Pace the backstroke. My back is pretty good, so I need to recover from O2 debt in the first 50 and then push the 2nd 50. 100 back is about 1:07. 3. Work breast as best I can. I suck at this stroke, which is why I feel I have to push it hard. (1:22) 4. Finish the 100 free without totally falling apart. (:58) Is that a decent strategy? It looks similar to the one above, but I wasn't sure if that was serious or a joke. If I perform at my individual race best times I'd get 4:42. Accounting for the distance/dying etc. I think 5:30 is probably reasonable, I'm just looking for some guidance from those in the know.

Karen Duggan
February 16th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Enter 5:20 and I bet you'll go about 5:16-5:17.

Let me know if I should quit my day job and venture into the psychic realm!:p

craiglll@yahoo.com
February 16th, 2005, 03:33 PM
Last saturday, I was at a meet. they had only one guy do the 400 IM. I loved it but now where I swim the air & water are too hot & I start to wheeze when I try to do it.

jbroadri
February 16th, 2005, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Enter 5:20 and I bet you'll go about 5:16-5:17.

Let me know if I should quit my day job and venture into the psychic realm!:p
Meet is 3/12. I'll let you know. I think given my endurance (or lack thereof) Its more likely I'll go 5:30, so I'm using 5:30 seed. There will probably only be one heet anyway, so it probably doesn't matter.

jbroadri
March 12th, 2005, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Karen Duggan
Enter 5:20 and I bet you'll go about 5:16-5:17.

Let me know if I should quit my day job and venture into the psychic realm!:p

5:18. You are at least as good as Ms. Cleo! ;)

Scansy
March 13th, 2005, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by jbroadri
5:18. You are at least as good as Ms. Cleo! ;)

Hey Karen, have any lottery numbers for us?;)

TRYM_Swimmer
March 14th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Note to non-breaststrokers: You were born too late! Before they were separate events, one could swim butterfly or breastroke as the first leg of the 150 IM. (See article in new USMS magazine this month.)

As a breaststroker, I never liked that event much! (Only swam it several times for an old perpetual trophy at York PA YMCA.) Now IM for me is pretty fast fly, so my hips don't sag, keep a good rhythm and pressure in the back (my worst stroke) and then breast leg depends on what's left at that point. Being more of a distance breaststroker, I can cruise on that leg to catch my breath and still maintain position (or sometimes catchup) with a long smooth stroke. Then, of course, the free is all out. (As all out as a non-sprinter can go and still keep a decent stroke.)

Greetings to all my old Masters friends I haven't seen for years! Susi and I are back into it with a new, small team in Eastern NC. Hope to see you at a Nationals soon!

Karen Duggan
March 15th, 2005, 05:09 PM
Perhaps I will buy a lottery ticket. :)

I haven't been "surfing" much around here as we are doing "March Madness" in Walnut Creek. We are contesting who can do the most yards in March. I'll let you know how I did on April 1st :) I must say the blarney is flying. Nobody will say how much they've done, but they will severely underestimate their current yardage, leaving others to ridicule them as bad liars!!!

Off to the pool... :)

newmastersswimmer
March 18th, 2005, 03:12 PM
I will give my 2 cents worth on the 200 IM only (which probably isn't actually worth the entire 2 cents though).....I am skipping out on the 400 IM this season (not in good enough shape for that one yet....and maybe not in good enough shape for the 200 yet either....I will find out soon enough though)........

I believe IMHO (who am I kidding with the "humble" opinion stuff anyway??) that the primary keys to a successful IM are: (Listed in both a priority type order as well as a "somewhat" chronological order in fact):

1) Getiing out fast enough (but "relaxed enough") on fly and backstroke BUT still somehow saving enough for the back end (i.e. the breast and free).....Here you need really good smooth stroke mechanics (with a great start and turns as well).....also need good rythmic breathing to stay relaxed here!

2) Great Starts and turns (especially the "transition" turns).....I am still looking for the right back to breast turn for me (something I can actually learn to do efficiently enough by Nationals though)??....Streamlining...Streamlining...Streaml ining!! (off all turns for maximum distance underwater!).....Also get in and out of each turn very quickly...(staying tight and compact through the actual "turning" parts)

3) Strong Breaststroke Leg: If #1 above is successful enough, you should be able to have a strong breaststroke leg (and still be out fast at the 100 mark).....Wayne McCauley's Website on Breast Stroke sounds like an excellent place to start for improving my breaststroke!!...(get plenty of "underwater glide" out of each stroke here!)

4) Strong kick on final freestyle leg....with a strong finish into the wall.....Here's where the training and endurance either pays off (or the lack thereof shows up!).

Frankly I'm a little skeptical about my chances of pulling this one off this season??.....I do, however, still have about 8 weeks before Nationals....I better make them very "meaningful" (especially when it comes to #3 and #4 above!!)


Newmastersswimmer

SwiminONandON
March 21st, 2005, 03:33 PM
Swam the 200 IM again last weekend and had a much better race. I took the fly out a lot easier than I did a month ago, and what do you know I actually had energy still in breaststroke. My legs were burning on the free but I was still able to pick it up. It was a great race, still not fast (or anywhere near fast), but dramactically improved for me ... a 17 second drop. A couple more meets with 17 second drops and it'll be fast. ha

I love this race now, it's one of my favorites.

It's still that dang breaststroke leg that kills me. I was ahead of the girl in the lane next to me until that leg and couldn't catch her on the free leg, though I made a valiant effort.

craiglll@yahoo.com
March 21st, 2005, 03:50 PM
I signed up to do a 200 IM at the Illinis state meet. I haven't swam it in a long time. I've been doing Mel's workout on this site. they've helped me with the event so far. It just burns my old asthmatic lungs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My biggest problem is knowing when to stop kicking underwater during the transitions. On a 100 IM, I start with 12 underwater kick for fly. What about 200IM? Should ther be fewer? and the same with breast?

SwiminONandON
March 21st, 2005, 04:50 PM
This thread has some good pointers ... whoever said it was a 50 sprint of each stroke was nuts. I had no legs swimming it that way and I think am in pretty good shape and well conditioned.

If you kick too much on fly and back and are under too long it becomes detrimental. I had a coach tell me to breathe A LOT on the fly. Build the back and go like gang busters on the breast and free.

I found if I keep my fly smoothe, and build the back I'm in good shape. My legs were burning on the last 25 but it was the last 25 of a very long meet and I was able to keep pushing, wouldn't have been if it was the first 25 of breast.

I think 2 or 3 under water kicks on back and fly will be more than sufficient. And on breast, do what your lungs can handle. On free give it what ever is left ....

Good luck, I'll be swimming it at state, too. Though very slowly.

Look at all of Ande's advice, he's a phenomenal 200 IM swimmer ...

ande
March 21st, 2005, 08:31 PM
shucks
there's plenty of people way better than me
I swim another 200 IM in 20 days

When I sat there and played with splits on paper
It all seemed easy and doable.
BUT I forgot about the AGONY FACTOR
I didn't take it easy on the fly and the back
I kicked too much and swam too hard on the back stroke.
I didn't have much left for the breast and the free.

I hope to swim a smarter race and be much faster on the breast and free

We'll see.

Ande


Originally posted by SwiminONandON
This thread has some good pointers ... whoever said it was a 50 sprint of each stroke was nuts. I had no legs swimming it that way and I think am in pretty good shape and well conditioned.

If you kick too much on fly and back and are under too long it becomes detrimental. I had a coach tell me to breathe A LOT on the fly. Build the back and go like gang busters on the breast and free.

I found if I keep my fly smoothe, and build the back I'm in good shape. My legs were burning on the last 25 but it was the last 25 of a very long meet and I was able to keep pushing, wouldn't have been if it was the first 25 of breast.

I think 2 or 3 under water kicks on back and fly will be more than sufficient. And on breast, do what your lungs can handle. On free give it what ever is left ....

Good luck, I'll be swimming it at state, too. Though very slowly.

Look at all of Ande's advice, he's a phenomenal 200 IM swimmer ...