SUPERTEAM changes?

[Karen Duggan]

I noticed that there have been over 1500 views of the SUPERTEAM thread, but not many people commenting.

I was curious:

1) Look at having a club division vs. SUPERTEAM at Nationals.

2) Leave things just the way they are.

3) I need new, concrete information before I decide.

4) Don't care.

[dorothyrde]

Honestly, I have been watching the thread, but I don't care. It was fun to go to Nationals as team Illinois. Since I am in an area with very few swimmers that go to meets, it was nice to participate in my first ever relay in my life. I scored no points, individually, or in a relay, so maybe that is why I am indifferent. My friend from my team did score points as she is in the 60-65 ager group, but still swims like a youngin! :D

[jerry clark]

I'd invite people to look at the thread Superteams to see whats been discussed. Further, the choice of voting for/against dividing into club and superteams or for leaving things the way they are doesn't allow compromise. As said on the Superteam thread, I think there is a better way to do this. Jerry

[Karen Duggan]

How is it not compromise? The club teams will be happy and the Superteams can keep doing whatever it is the Superteams are doing. How is that not compromise? Everybody's happy.

[lisa]

Thanks to Jerry Clark for directing me to this Super Team discussion-so here's my 2 cents.
I was one of the Championship Committee members who voted against the rule proposal at last year's convention to change the team scoring at Nationals to a method that just takes the top ten team point scores, regardless of size. This rule did pass, so now size is not a factor in determining team scoring- and as I suspected, people are complaining about this method also.
I still maintain that size breakdown is the fairest way to categorize team scoring- whether the team is a Super Team or not should not be a factor. SuperTeams come in all sizes-quite often, a club team may have more members at Nationals than a Super Team does. Just look at Jerry Clark's study of the last 5 years at Nationals and you can see that. The concept of the Super Team is to allow states to combine at Nationals for the purpose of allowing people to swim more relays, allow more social comradery, and yes, to win more points. Our Championship Committee has had many lengthy discussions, with no solution, as to how to designate team categories- this is really impossible to do, as teams are formed in so many different ways throughout the country.
I thought our method of breaking down categories according to size was the fairest method- perhaps the problem was in how the breakdown was made. Some valid complaints on past breakdowns were that the breakdown was made at the wrong place- Example: Team A with 20 swimmers was a Medium Team, and Team B with 19 swimmers was a Small Team. I think this is what should be worked on- finding a fair cutoff point for designation of Large, Medium, and Small Teams.
It'll be interesting to see what the feedback is from Ft Lauderdale, where all teams will compete on an equal basis for the first 10 spots- this will obviously penalize the smaller teams.
LISA WATSON
Georgia LMSC Chair

[LindsayNB]

Lisa,
Did the committee consider having fixed team sizes like for the Olympics and World Championships where each country is limited to something like 26 men and women? Obviously the team limit shouldn't limit the number of participants but the number of swimmers whose results count in team competition. If there were a few different team sizes all the teams could compete on a truly level playing field. Some clubs could field multiple teams to maximize participation.

In general there will be no system that can divide teams with a variable number of members that avoids team sizes differing by one ending up in different catagories while placing teams with much greater variance in numbers in the same catagory. And any competition involving teams of differing sizes is necessarily "unfair".

The obvious drawback to fixed team sizes is that the number of swimmers from a club probably won't match one of the sizes exactly resulting in some swimmers being "left out". If you allow a club to field multiple teams and have one team size that is small, say four swimmers, then this can be minimized. The fact is that relays are fixed at four swimmers so this issue already comes up. Perhaps the odd swimmers will even be motivated to recruit some other swimmers from their club that otherwise wouldn't attend.

There you go, a truly fair solution. This suggestion was completely ignored in the other superteam thread.

[craiglll@yahoo.com]

Originally posted by Karen Duggan
I noticed that there have been over 1500 views of the SUPERTEAM thread, but not many people commenting.



I wonder if this is because it effects so few swimmers? Of hte total membership of USMS, howmany participate in nationals, are a member of a competitive team, or are interested in team points?

[jerry clark]

Lisa and Lindsay, your posts on this thread (Superteam changes) would be more widely read and be more in line with the thread labeled Super teams, which is located several items below this one in the General Discussion section.

As so many people have posted and read the items posted on the Super teams thread, it would be nice if your posts on this thread could be placed on that thread. How to do that? I'm unsure. One way is to print a copy of what you wrote on this thread then rewrite it on the Super teams thread.

As you can see, Karen Duggan began this thread as a poll; most of the opinions and comments are on the many pages of the other thread.

Jerry

[lisa]

To answer Lindsay's question- Fixed teams should never be considered in a Masters event-our whole organization is built on participation and inclusion, not exclusion. Any swimmer on a team who wants to go to Nationals should be able to do so.
I'm afraid this is a topic that will always be controversial and will probably never find an answer that satisfies everyone.
LISA

[LindsayNB]

Originally posted by lisa
To answer Lindsay's question- Fixed teams should never be considered in a Masters event-our whole organization is built on participation and inclusion, not exclusion. Any swimmer on a team who wants to go to Nationals should be able to do so.

Which is why I said:
Obviously the team limit shouldn't limit the number of participants but the number of swimmers whose results count in team competition.
and went on to explain how clubs could enter multiple teams in order to include as many people as possible. And you can always enter a team that is smaller than the fixed size if you want to ensure that everyone can participate, your choice.

The whole superteam controversy hinges on the inherent contradiction between having variable sized teams and any plausible sense of fairness. The idea that teams of different sizes can compete on a level field is simply ludicrous and yet people argue endlessly about what definition of club/superteam will make competition fair.

[gull]

Team size isn't the only variable that impacts fairness. I think it's pretty unfair that some people are so darn fast--now that Paul Smith has aged up, what chance do the rest of us have in the 45-49 age group? Let's initiate a handicap system like they use in horse racing. We'll just see how fast he is trying to swim with a bunch of weights on his back.

[LindsayNB]

Team size just establishes the same degree of "level playing field" that we accept in individual competition.

As a very slow late bloomer I believe that all people who swam age group, high school, or college should have to drag a training parachute, say one square foot per year of prior swimming experience, two square feet per year during those teenage years where one can permanently increase aerobic capacity, fast twitch muscle fibers, etc.

[gull]

Good idea. Think about it: Lakers vs. Heat--same team size, but Miami is outstanding and LA sucks (can I say that?).

[LindsayNB]

Has LA complained that they have to play in the same league as Miami? Or maybe suggested that Miami not be able to recruit outside Miami city limits?

And thus another potentially good idea is consigned to oblivion. :rolleyes:

[Paul Smith]

Craig, the reality is the weight is already there....except its around my waist and not on my back!